Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

Outright insulting the company is not the right way to go about it Blitz...

Shrapnel prefers the forums this way, which is why they stay this way.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We are working on making them into forums since they have picked up so much. The original format was for staff/Moderators. Its more of a "Customer Support" format.

The new software does apparently allow for Users to choose the discussion format (what you were asking for). However, its NOT a software upgrade. Its a whole new software (by the same company). The major question still to be answered is whether or not we can keep all the nice content we already have.

More attention will be available for this after Origins (and the consequent recovery time)

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

its a pain in the *** for a number of reasons.

When your reading the topic listing and a particular topic has more than one page you cant just click the main topic heading to read it, you have to excert finer mouse control to click on the Last page in the list to get to the start of the post.

When your reading Posts, you read a reply downwards, then have to roll upwards to the next one.

Thats just 2 very basic reasons, with no rancour attached.

Actually, having thought about it, I see no reason why I should have to offer a rational reply as Im not debating this with anyone.

It DOES bother me and it DOES get me mad AT shrapnell, It makes me think less of them, it makes me want to not buy any other product from them. Sort the fugging forums out.

Spiro

[ June 19, 2004, 09:36: Message edited by: spirokeat ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

Actually, it's funny that this topic comes up. Most people do hate the format when they first visit, but the folks who read regularly end up loving it since they can find the newest Posts easily at the top of their current thread.

As far as the future goes, we'll have to see how the next Version of everything works out.

We could switch it back, but honestly we would probably piss off more people who are used to it by now.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

You know, there's a reason why my post count here is so low even though I've been a loyal Shrapnel customer for years now.

While I certainly don't find the current format repulsive enough to keep me away entirely, it definitely dissuades me from being an active contributor here.

Maybe I'm just an old dog and reluctant to learn new tricks, but I honestly think I'd have more fun playing the latest real-time strategy game than surfing these forums. If nothing else, I'm sure the RTS game would require far less dexterity and careful planning. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

It's not a huge issue for me, but options are always good!

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

The new software upgrade offers it. Of course that does cost but thats not an issue. The issue would be that it does things VERY differently (goes from CSS to MySQL I believe).

So besides deciding whether to go from a support to a community-chat format, there would be the careful CAREFUL effort to make sure none of the content we have is lost.

[ June 22, 2004, 02:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

You would not believe how confused I was when I first starting reading Posts at shrapnel. I believe you might be losing a few people just because of the initial confusion.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Possibly. But initially the choice was "this or that". There were pros and cons either way.

NOW I believe the new Version of the software offers it as a Users choice in their profile. Very nice. If we can port over the threads we have going then it will be a win/win situation.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

So like, is there any action being taken on this or what? No, I never "got used to it". Yes, it's still annoying. Please fix, thanks.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

Just thought I'd throw in my thoughts: I definitely prefer the "standard" format used by other Boards. It really does bother me "reading backwards".

However, as others have said, it's obviously more important to pay the $$$ and keep things afloat, so if fixing the display causes too many problems, I guess we'll all deal with it (or we'll take our ball and go home). Running a forum is a fairly thankless job (think of it as "mayor without any perks"!) and I can't blame the Admins if they don't have the time to do a whole new install.

I do think it's sad how bitter some posters are getting over this. We're all brought here by love of the game(s), and it's a shame we can't at least treat each other with the sort of basic respect that our parents all raised us to have.

Kudos to Gandalf for trying to keep this thread constructive and civil!

[ July 03, 2004, 07:54: Message edited by: FarAway Pretender ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't forget Tim Brooks, Richard, Mephisto, Atrocities, etc., etc., etc. that tried to keep it civil as well.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

What's annoying about the ucrrent system for me is that when I search for something, it never displays the correct post in large threads.

If I'm searching for a post in a thread with 20 pages and my answer is on the 3rd post from the start of the tread, it'll show me the third most recent post from the bottom instead.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

I don't see the poll refered to, so I can't put my poll vote in sadly.

I strongly believe that the user should have the option to pick which display mechanic they desire.

e.g.

May
June
July

VS

July
June
May


~msew

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

I've been reading these forums for some time now, and it still bothers me that the order of the Posts is reversed. It is directly opposite to human habit: reading is usually done from top to bottom. Look around. You will very rarely find a board that uses the same reversed layout that Shrapnel uses.

I understand the original reason behind this, but you can't mean that "we always did it like this, so it stays this way" seriously.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on the Boards you visit. Ive done customer suppport for many internet companies and this is the standard arrangment for support Boards. Its FAR easier for busy staff people to see the latest threads, and start with the latest Messages. That way they dont reply to the initial problem if there is a later post saying the person has found an answer which changed it abit. And multiple staff people can quickly see if another staff person has answered the ticket. Its a definate format choice for trying to keep staff and developers active in the forums.

But of course, thats an old and moot point. A couple of the forums have expanded into Community-Chat forums. And thats a good thing. Shrapnel has already decided to support that evolution with hardware/software upgrades including the purchase/install of software which will not only switch the sequence but apparently allows it as a choice.

The only concern now is switching over without any losses.

[ July 06, 2004, 15:58: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

I just want state that I've grown to like it the way it is.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

to gandalf shrapnel and all involved

1 whilst i personally do not like the present bottoms up format
2 i do understand the original necessity
3 i applaud their patience with their customers and forum members
4 i applaud their decision to update the software to a Version that allows choice ( very american http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif )
5 i thank them for taking the time to preserve the content of the present Boards

6 i suggest a temporary measure if its possible
move the printer friendly button to the tiop of the page if it can be done

7 expand the size of the new Posts blue arrow (never saw that in here till fyron mentioned it)
8 provide a topic search that allow to search specific forums for topics with new Posts
allowing the choice to see new post \topics in all forums or just in say the space empires forum

these are suggestions
all in all i believe the people responsible for these Boards whether it be company , advisors , mods , or just plain old posters have all done a great job and are to be thanked for their time and hard work

(yes that means you to fyron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

[ July 11, 2004, 16:36: Message edited by: psimancer ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

Just to chip in my two cents: I'd prefer the "logical" order also, oldest first and newest Last. Since people write Messages from top to bottom (first letter of a message is older than the Last), it would make the most sense to me if threads also started with the oldest article.

it is only one of many.
forum I visited, I'd probably not mind, but alas,
severe headache. If this was the only web
smoothly read it without eventually getting a
my post like this would really help anyone to
I seriously doubt that ordering the lines of

I don't expect that the system is changed just for my needs, but a good community is important to me when I buy/play games. I like reading/writing about what I'm playing, sharing my thoughts and bouncing around ideas. The current system is too frustrating for me to really want to participate here, so the game's attraction is also negatively affected. My loss, I know.

Giving the user the choice would by far be the best option. If newer Versions use a different format/system to store Messages, then this probably does present a problem, however, it's a problem you'll eventually face anyway. Are there tools that would help converting the data?

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cute. But not a good example. After all its not the Posts that are reveresed. Its the threads.

Any forum built around customer support (you know, the ones that do trouble tickets) tend to be ordered this way. So your example should have been that any customer service person jumping into a troubleshooting thread would see...
5)thanks that fixed it
4)did you try teaking the borgle?
3)no that didnt do it
2)are you sure the fwibble is turned off?
1)I cant seem to get asdf to work on my machine.

So the first post is the one most informative about what answer might be needed if any.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heard and agreed to.

[ July 27, 2004, 17:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not switch it. Just extend it. (hopefully. Knock on virtual wood)

Actually the SEIV forum had a big hand in the "this is a community chat forum not a trouble shooting forum" discussion. It had been decided awhile ago to upgrade the forum software to a package that makes the sequence a user choice. But to accomplish it as a choice means the software stores forums very differently. The reason the upgrade wasnt done instantly was concerns about importing. Progress looks good and (looking nervously around for Murphy) an answer one way or the other looks imminent.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not the customer support forums of companies I've worked for. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Admittedly, though, the "newest first" order was more common a few (many?) years ago, I don't encounter it often anymore. I also agree that there are some advantages to it, but they are far less significant, or even non-existent, on community-focused Boards (where threads are usually on-going discussions rather than question/answer small-scale exchanges).

A number of forum packages support the "automatically go to newest message in a thread since your Last visit" (or "... Last time since you opened this thread") feature, which would probably meet the needs of customer support reps who are pressed for time, and still allow a more "natural" order of Messages in a thread. The current system is as tedious as top posting in Usenet, though not entirely comparable since threads are still ordered "properly".

Anyway, I feel a bit bad that my very first post here was criticism. The different order was the first problem I ran into, so I used the search command and found this thread. It's meant as feedback, not as *****ing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

You can click the "Printer friendly" link if you need to catch up and read them all from oldest to newest.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh ok. Well it would be nice to have the option of picked which way you want to view the threads. I personally love this way over the conventional method. In fact when I first came to Shrapnel I absolutely hated the reverse (correct for me now) order of the threads, but now I have gotten used to it and it makes more sense to me to have them this way. So instead of opening a thread and needing to click to the Last page to view the newest post I can just click open the topic and boom the newest are right there on top.

But going to the conventional way of doing things would not be so bad as long as we have the option of chosing which way we want to view it.

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is all very true. No one here is in disagreement with any of it. The "trouble support" Version which was started here years ago is no longer "commuity chat" that these forums have become.

And switching to a newer package which allows it both ways is the answer. Done and purchased. Its no longer a question of IF it should be done.

But Im not sure if you realize yet the wealth of information which has built up in these forums. In some cases it has gone beyond a manual, beyond a strat guide, its become an encyclopdeia of knowledge which exists nowhere else. THATS the scarey part. Making it easier for some Users now does not tip the scale over precautions about the data. Since we are between conventions it has become the "project of the day"

Re: Posts are backwards why?
 

On one hand, I like having the newest Posts right there where I can look for them. On the other hand, it can be a strain to read the Posts backwards.