Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.

Re: Noob questions!
 

It is obious that IW cant spend too much time on every minute feature of the game, so I propose we drop this dicussion. The issues are :

- in MP : no issue, nobody will use the arena.
- in SP : if the player want to cheat the AI he is playing against, then he can send a trapped commander. If it amuses him to play fairly, then he can send a normal commander.

Anyway, the arena concept of Illwinter is not to have a nice place where you can earn nice toys, its just a secondary (or tertiary) feature which will remain as it is, for the best or the worst of the game.

Re: Noob questions!
 

Amen. It seems we have a lot of posters desperate to make mountains out of molehills.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.

[ October 09, 2003, 13:22: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">at least the thread was useful for me, I just learnt a new english idiom!

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt we will see eye to eye on this, but I do not agree the AI can be "abused totally" in SP. Nor do I think cheating is applicable unless you play multi player, if you 'cheat' against an AI the only person you might potentionally hurt is yourself.

You can at most screw with one of the AI players, since if you die you turn over your items or some of them to the AI, if you win there isnt a problem. You can only die once. So you can only give your items to one AI. This AI player might not even have sent a particularily valuable commander, it is not like it allways sends Pretenders in fact the AI does this in less than 25% of the cases even if it has a combat pretender. Even if you do land a cursed item on the opposite pretender this doesn't affect the AI in a big way, an AI is not clever enough to plan to use any of its particular units in a well thought through way. A cursed item might slightly dent its abilities but it will not affect it in a major way. And chances are that your cursed item ends up on a ordinary semi powerful commander like a Traitor Prince or Cataphract Commander. In which case the forging of the item probably has cost you more than it has cost your opponent AI.

So:
1: Cheating against the AI is moronic. You can allway choose not to do it. No one is hurt but you.
2: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating. You can only do this to one AI player in an event that occurs perhaps one or two times a game.
3: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, the chance that it will end up on an AI pretender or similar powerfull unit is not particularily high.
4: Even if you do consider sending cursed items to the arena cheating, and you do manage to pass the item on to an enemy Pretender, the actual effect of the cheat is very small.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Errrr I agree with them Johan. Why Illwinter cannot fix this?
Simply don't allow those AI-cheating items, and we're all good. Don't tell me, that it is hard to add this script...
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

[ October 09, 2003, 14:31: Message edited by: Zerger ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Något Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem is that it's not that amusing except the first fight ... The reward is not worth the risk taken by sending a real good commander.
So in SP you either pass on it or abuse it to screw AI pretender/prophet
In MP players either pass or send crap commanders...

Just putting more varied and valuable stuff as reward would make it much more "fun" without it becoming a real focus.
My 0.02 €

Re: Noob questions!
 

I can see it both ways. On the one hand, if there were such a death match and I didn't think I could win by fair play I would definitely want to take someone down with me. On the other hand, I can see the Arena Death Match Fairness Committee http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif prohibiting the use of certain items - and so much the better if they did because then you might actually dare to try to win. I think it's a shame when no-one except the AI sends someone they think might win - makes it all a bit futile in MP.

If I was in charge of the Arena Death Match Improvement Committee I would outlaw the use of certain items - a short list of items officially considered to be 'cheats'. Ideally I would outlaw the use of certain spells too (like 'curse'), but that would be harder to control. I think I would also change the prize to a choice of a couple of different items, or failing that, an item more neutral - i.e. applicable to both mages and fighters, if such an item could be found (perhaps something like the Ankh, Nethgul, Alchemist's stone, The Magic Lamp, Gate Stone, or Flying Ship). Definitely I would make the item removeable, so that it could be put in a display case in the capital of the winner [though I realise that this is how the Last victor is found, in order to compete in the next arena death match].

Furthermore, I might subdivide the contest into different events - one for fighters with weapons, etc., one for fighters without special weapons, one for mages, one for archers, etc. But that would depend on popularity and funding, etc.

*edit - I think it would be pretty hard to implement, allowing certain items but not others. The only way I can think of would be flag the 'cheating' items somehow, and then have the program only offer the 'compete in arena death match' to people who were clean. Either that or have a dialogue come up saying that you have to unequip certain unlawful items, etc. when you try to compete while in the possession of Banned items

*further edit - Another thing I would outlaw were I in charge of the Improvement Committee is the entrance of pretenders - I think it ought to be non-divine commanders only. This would make it more competitive, rather than your knight commander having to face down a huge flaming skull, or undead manticore, or something like that.

[ October 09, 2003, 15:23: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

My understanding of the issue with the AI here isn't that you can stick one of them with cursed items, but rather that each AI save one loses a commander automatically when the arena event occurs.

And sending the pretender 25% of the time... that sounds like alot to me, I don't really see it as a minor issue, not do I see it as 'cheating' I see it as a mechanism which the AI doesn't handle very well, and as such gets penelized.

How about just adding a switch to turn the silly thing off, if it is truely as unimportant as you say it is, then give the option to not use it in the first place.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I totally agree. That it why The Arena must be fixed. It is all about the items. Just do not allow the 'abuse items' in the Arena, thats all.
I hope that the devs see our point.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sounds appropriate for a Mortal Kombat theme... but makes much more out of it than it probably should in Dominions.

Seems like the AI should only very rarely, or never, send a pretender to such a contest.

It'd be interesting to have some more varied prizes, if currently you always get the same thing.

Tournaments with varied restrictions would be interesting/amusing, but again, it's not MK. The death match really is a side show. Single-player folks complaining about the game letting them do things that they consider cheating... could have more fun if they learned self-control.

PvK

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure I follow you here. Why in the world would game need an option to turn off something you don't have to use anyway? Is there some hidden mechanism in game that forces you to participate in Arena? If you don't like it - don't use it. Additional option wont change a THING.

AI sends ONLY combat pretenders. I have never seen RM in Arena. These pretenders can be called back and they die on the battlefield occasionaly. If the get killed 1 time in Arena they wont lose a game, heck they hardly feel it.

[ October 09, 2003, 20:51: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I totally agree. That it why The Arena must be fixed. It is all about the items. Just do not allow the 'abuse items' in the Arena, thats all.
I hope that the devs see our point.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't see the point. If you don't like to abuse AI why do it? You usually do what you don't like?
If you like abusing AI why complain?

It seems to me that lots of people either didn't read or didn't understand JO post. There is no SIGNIFICANT item abuse in the game. And if you are willing to sacrifice a leader who you must pay for and give him item that you must make in order to "give" it to AI in arena match that MAY happen I wonder who is the victim here. That's a lot of effort to plant an item (which may be even beneficial to the receiver) to AI player.

Yes I agree that Arena contest its insignificant because it wont change the outcome of the game but its like one of those free poster you receive with some game that makes you feel good and adds color to it all. It's good idea and I'm definitely against any change here.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure I follow you here. Why in the world would game need an option to turn off something you don't have to use anyway? Is there some hidden mechanism in game that forces you to participate in Arena? If you don't like it - don't use it. Additional option wont change a THING.

AI sends ONLY combat pretenders. I have never seen RM in Arena. These pretenders can be called back and they die on the battlefield occasionaly. If the get killed 1 time in Arena they wont lose a game, heck they hardly feel it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry Licker. I've red your post again and I follow you now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Still, in my experience no AI had lost a game because of losing pretender in Arena. They empower them quite often and recall them very fast.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the contrary! I think there should be finishing moves that you can only learn by winning in the Arena. Subsequently, a disembodied voice will call out "FATALITY" every time the champion gets a kill in battles... they could even throw in an FMV sequence that plays with each kill!

Re: Noob questions!
 

Daynarr,
My "complaint" is that the Arena isn't much fun, mainly cause the reward is fixed and not worth the risk taken if you send a "critical" commander.
The AI abuse issue comes second.
And that's not a big issue anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree again. Yes if I dont want, I wont abuse the AI, but still it is possible.
We can live with this, I am sure.
But....
The Arena is totally ignored in MP games. No one will enter with good commanders. Not just because they think that they will loose, but they do not want to win at all. Why? Because it is pointless right now as it is.

How to fix the Arena?

1.The champ's prize is not good enough. The prize should be a unique, random, Arena only magic item.
2. The champ should be totally healed.

[ October 09, 2003, 22:51: Message edited by: Mortifer ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

Hehe, glad you understand my concern now Daynarr.

I still stand by my initial thought, make it optional and everyone should be molified. I just don't see it as a dynamic the AI can handle appropritately, whether or not its a big deal to the result of the game is beside the point to me, its just annoying to know that the AI is doing something stupid for something pointless in the first place http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't really like any of your suggestions. For me Dominions is primarily a multiplayer wargame, the arena contest is fun but I can ignore it if I want, and I want it to remain so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For you. I prefer singleplayer & modding, over multiplayer.

Lot of players are preferring the singleplayer part & modding, so the arena fight must be fixed. The biggest problem is the AI abusing.

I think removing the items in arena fights is a good idea, but as Mortifer said, maybe if some items won't be allowed, that should do it too.
Just do not allow 'AI abuse' items. You know what items I meant, I am sure.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Något Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Något Gick Fel on this one. The arena is just intended as an amusing detail. Making the arena victory more rewarding or penalising people not participating would shift focus away from the core of the game, if either of the above where implemented it would force players into maximising a super combatant. I think it is better to keep it the way it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Johan, let me ask you a question. Why do you support cheating? In singleplayer, the AI can be abused totally in the Arena fights.
Illwinter must fix this, since this is the most annoying cheat in Dominions I.
It is working in multiplayer, since you cannot abuse anything, but in singleplayer it is a bad part of the game, and only because the AI abusing.

It can be fixed. We told you some ideas, that how to fix it, you should think about it.
Please do not forget that we have lot of players who prefer the singleplayer part of the game.

I see 2 ways, that how to fix the singleplayer Arena AI abusing:

-Do not allow items in the arena
-Do not allow 'abuse items' in the arena, so items like a flaming sword should be allowed for example, but items with curse etc. shouldnt be allowed.etc..

(-In fact, if Doms would be a multiplayer game only, I wouldnt even buy it, since I do not really like multiplayer in any games. [Especially not in strategy games.]-)

The Arena fight is very good part of the game, but it must be fixed. Please support the offline players as well.

[ October 09, 2003, 12:54: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

I tend to just ignore the Arena matches when they come up. If the enemy wants to play with the trident, let 'em. Still, it would be interesting to see it spiced up into something more than just another message at the beginning of the turn.

Possibly the introduction of something like a "Category" system would help? There could be a Champion of Mages, a Champion of Fighters, a Champion of Scouts, and so forth. The different battles could come up at different times and each nation can, as now, choose to compete or not. There could be a different prize for each type of champion, something appropriate for their nature, and champions could choose not to play with the penalty of forfeiting their title/item. (One of the problems I have with the Arena is that I can't afford to have one of my best commanders sucked away for a crucial turn. I'd rather have the option to forfeit.)

Maybe the titles could come with a mild bonus (+1?) in terms of a morale lift for their troops. That'd make it more worthwhile to fight, plus it'd make sense that people would feel better being commanded by the Champion of Fighters then Just Some Guy.

If a commander didn't have a certain level of magic power (say, 3, to prevent simply empowering a combat machine to slaughter the enemy mage), then they couldn't enter the Mages' bout. Likewise, if they DO have 3+ in at least one path, they are barred from that competition. If they aren't stealthy or have starting combat stats above a certain theshold, they are barred from the Scouts' battle. Pretenders would be a Category all to themselves.

I don't blame IW for not focusing on this particular issue, since it isn't a major part of the game, but it'd be nice for a role-playing type like myself to see it developed. Of course, they've been very busy doing things for the first patch, such as adding the much-requested support for units that flee combat due to orders rather than rout to remain with their armies if the battle is won. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Noob questions!
 

"2. The champ should be totally healed."

Now _this_ might be a prize worth fighting for!

The scars of old battles and ill magics faded away as the Champion, victorious and purified, set his eye again on conquest...

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">??? Wow!!! I'll take this over an Arena improvement any day! Which, of course, means that the next day I'll start begging for an Arena tweak http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-Cherry

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is good, this is very good!
The quality of the game just keeps getting better!
It's gonna be a cold, long winter...

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did I read that right - that they only stay with their armies if the battle is won? What about harass 'fire & flee' tactics, where you have no intention of winning, but you want to maintain squad integrity? Is this not being implemented?

I mean, don't get me wrong, what you posted is great - I'm very satisfied. Go Illwinter.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">if this true and comes in the release, then I'm really impressed by their dedication to their product, and the respect they show for the community.
congrats Illwinter!

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ October 10, 2003, 08:09: Message edited by: Aristoteles ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How about making a unique troop type recruitable for the winning side? I realise this might not be an easy job to implement, but would be cool IMO.

Or give the winner a pack of unique bodyguards (unremovable), which replenish b/w battles.

I like the idea of beefing up the arena, since I don't see it worth the risk as it is now.

- Humer

Re: Noob questions!
 

Hmm, the more I've thought about this arena issue the more it begins to annoy me.

If it was just intended as a small distraction in game fine, but if no one on this board says they bother with it, then it becomes solely a sink for AI commanders. I don't really care weather or not the effect on the AI is great or not, the arena amounts to the same thing as periodically going trough every AI nation and randomly (or not so randomly) removing a commander. Now if that were implemeted in the game I wonder how many people would be more bothered by it.

So I repeat my request to make the arena optional at the game creation phase. Shouldn't be all that hard to add another option when you already can choose site frequency, indie strengths, ...

Now some people will again say, 'don't worry, its not a big effect on game play...' to them I say, 1st I disagree with the potential effect on game balance for the AIs, and 2nd, if it really isn't a big deal, and you never use it, then why keep it around in the first place? I'm not asking for it to be ripped out, merely made optional at the start.

Of course if the risk/reward and cost/benefit of the arena were tweeked I'd probably change my mind http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think it summarize well the situation. It is fun for the developers at least, and a developer happy is a developer which codes better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Noob questions!
 

I like the arena, and I think it already is essentially optional. I don't think it's the big problem people are making it out to be.

Granted, I would love to see some changes (a qualifying round!), but I think that the way it is currently adds to the game.

-Cherry

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How does it add to the game if no one is using it? It only makes life harder for the AI as every so often they simply pick a commander to lose. Big deal or not, its a needless penalty to the AI that could (probably) be easilly addressed by adding a switch.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What gives you idea that nobody uses it? I use it. Saber Cherry uses it. Any newcomer to Dom II will use it. In fact it adds flavor to the game, and if you don't like that flavor then it’s YOUR right and YOUR opinion. Not EVERYONES. So please stop making statements in my name.

[ October 10, 2003, 17:31: Message edited by: Daynarr ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I do use it in MP when I have a not-so-important commander who can win with reasonable chances of success - like, say, a DE or Sauromancer (both can win with just summoning undead) - or a Jotun Herse or Black Servant.

Re: Noob questions!
 

At least in single player I'd consider using it early, and not just to plague the AI -- early on, the experience boost is pretty much a guaranteed Hall of Fame entry. Something like quickness would come in handy.

A dusk elder, 'though, does cost 20 gems... might be a bit much to risk depending on how early it was and how much death gem income one had. Other summoners could work too. And in multiplayer, what if you run into, say, a C'tis Shaman casting Curse? Curse Lasts forever, even through resurrection by priest-recall or immortality.

Re: Noob questions!
 

Another good bet, and a quite cheap one in fact, is a caelian mage. Lightning bolts combined with phantasmal warriors or mists of deception is a tactic capable of dealing with most competitors.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What gives you idea that nobody uses it? I use it. Saber Cherry uses it. Any newcomer to Dom II will use it. In fact it adds flavor to the game, and if you don't like that flavor then it’s YOUR right and YOUR opinion. Not EVERYONES. So please stop making statements in my name.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm what gave me the idea that no one used it (other than the people who admitted to using it to 'sabotage' the enemy) was the tone of the rest of this thread.

Ok you use it, great, now what's wrong with wanting to make it optional for those of us who feel it penalizes the AI? You will note I never said to remove it completely. All I did was state that if no one (I'm corrected on that one, so call it 10% now?) uses it, what's the point?

No one has adaquately answered the claim that it penalizes the AI yet either. All anyone has said is that its 'not a big deal'. Well that's hardly proof, and the ~25% of the time using a pretender (combat or otherwise) does seem like an issue to me for the AI.

So again, make it optional, that way everyone is happy.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I reckon this. This is a good way to upgrade the Arena!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually this idea is very good. What about adding this to the Arena system? I think everyone will be pleased than. In fact, no players will ignore the Arena anymore, if the Arena will be tweaked like this.
Once again this is a very good way to fix the Arena.
Just my 2 cents.

[ October 10, 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: MStavros ]

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yup, but Seraphs get less from the Trident, as they can cast Quickness easily.

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Curse doesn't bother me much in that case. Most of the time, Curse will have little or no consequence until the DE happens to be in close contact with the enemy, and then he's probably lost already. OTOH a quickened DE can be deadly - what about a death-4 DE casting Cloud of Death twice a turn endlessly?

Re: Noob questions!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Did I read that right - that they only stay with their armies if the battle is won? What about harass 'fire & flee' tactics, where you have no intention of winning, but you want to maintain squad integrity? Is this not being implemented?

I mean, don't get me wrong, what you posted is great - I'm very satisfied. Go Illwinter.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm, I'm not actually sure on that, actually. That may be a part of the initial tweak, but if it isn't, it may still get added.

Edit: Oh, and it should be noted that this will come as part of a post-release patch. It was too late to get it into the gold Version and have it thoroughly tested without delaying the game.

[ October 11, 2003, 03:40: Message edited by: Psitticine ]