Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

Hypaspists have one higher basic defense, even before armor. The other difference is that (again, due to armor) they move faster - twice as fast when marching through friendly provinces.

PvK

[ October 30, 2003, 01:30: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Something like the miniatures game Armati. There are other popular miniatures games too, although I'd shy away from the Warhammer stuff.

I highly recommend taking a look at Armati 2, which is due out around the end of this year.

-Jasper

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

Perhaps I need to qualify what I said.
Hypaspists aren't "bad", however in the early game players will want bulk, that means Cardaces. Later when they want quality, they will go right to Hoplites. The other units available are what make hypaspists obsolete.

IMHO the resource increase was too heavy handed (much like many of the game changes).

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you can't use them for the same fast early
start effect as you could in Dom 1, and for that you're right, Cardaces are better. Overall I think they're definitely better, and I suspect would beat Hoplites cost for cost in melee.

Plus HI with a strategic move of 2 is pretty nice.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

Didnt saw the 'tweaking' of hypaspysts too. They gain 4 prot, but increasing from 8 to 18 resources is definitively too much. I now find them in excess in the Arco roster, as I will either use Cardaces early, then revert to Hoplites when time permit. I only recruited some to goes with my elephants, but this is very secondary.

as for the LI usage, perhaps you can restrict the attack rear order to units which cost 15 resources or less. That would be a quick and dirty trick for giving them a flanking role in battle.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Generally speaking, I'd expect light infantry to get massacred by enemy archers. What do you base your suggestion on? I hardly expect that light infantry would literally dodge arrows, so by all accounts heavy infantry should be better equipped to face enemy archers (e.g. Roman legionaries and the turtle formation would be a good historical example). As Dominions handle things right now, this is the case - the high Protection of HI allows them to counter missiles, while the maneouverability of LI allows them to maintain a high Defense (which is irrelevant vs missiles). However, it might well be worth countering crossbows and the like with LI - such missile attacks will give HI some problems and in such situations, fast LI might be preferable.

That is not to say that LI might need to get some extra advantages - but I don't know if I agree that increased defense vs missiles should be one of those.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I base it on the simple fact that every pre gunpowder army I can think of used skirmishers to screen their heavy units from missile fire, so that their heavy units could enter melee fresh.

The mechanics of this were quite simple -- individual soldiers simply spread out, presenting a much more difficult target than shoulder to shoulder heavy infantry. And in fact this mechanism is already in Dom 2, it's just that blocks of skirmishers are just as densely packed as a phalanx of pike.

Tight formation Light infantry was also used, which were vulnerable to missiles, but the tactics that would make them usefull don't work in Dominions, and so I've been implicitly ignoring them -- sorry for the confusion.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't play Arco very much in Dom I because i found it a very boring nation, but i have started to play with Arco in Dom II. IMO the Hypastists are good enough.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their defense is 4 better, their morale 2 more, and the encumberance 2 less. Their good defense and ok protection against a hoplites spear makes me suspect they'd Last long enough to take advantage of hoplites quick fatigue.

Plus, having a strategic move of 2 is a big advantage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a decent idea. My only fear is that a few heavy infantry all the way out on the flanks will simply destroy this tactic.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't play Arco very much in Dom I because i found it a very boring nation, but i have started to play with Arco in Dom II. IMO the Hypastists are good enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arco boring ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif !!
You surely prefer those wonderfully varied Ulm infantry or Pythium Legionnaries ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ulm was boring, but Ulm had troops with something else than spears of diffrent length. In fact, i think that Ulm had the most diverse infnatry in the game, excluding LI. Ulm is no longer so boring because they have Siege Engineers and Sappers. I also thougth that Pythium is not only boring but yber with their ungodly starting gem income. And Pythium is still both boring and yber.

[ October 30, 2003, 13:31: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

Pythum is not boring to me, but Y(?)ber it may be. I do find them powerfull.

BTW. isn't it Uber, not Yber?

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

U with dots is pronounced as Y.

Ok, i admit there is people who get kicks from these legionairy-thingies, but i'm not one of those. Also, i find gem income of 8 rigth from the start bit too much.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">their morale is the same. I suggest you compare uninstanciated troops, and not some which can be in home province and friendly dominion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
The encumbrance is 1 less, right.
I forgot the strat move, I will have to get used with the stat, which is important.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a decent idea. My only fear is that a few heavy infantry all the way out on the flanks will simply destroy this tactic. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thats why I said this was a quick trick, something which can be (normally) coded in one hour or so. Many time the better is the enemy of good, and I would prefer to have this implemented in the first patch, and not a perfect system 4 patches away.

You can refine the proposal by having the flank zones interdicted to heavier troops.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their morale is not the same, a hoplite has 12 a hypaspist 14. Encumbrance is 2 less.

[ October 30, 2003, 15:37: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Their morale is not the same, a hoplite has 12 a hypaspist 14. Encumbrance is 2 less. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ah, I see. You think I was comparing hoplites versus Hypaspysts? I'm comparing doms I hyps verus doms II hyps. See my first post on the subject.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

You were quoting Jasper, who was talking about Hoplites vs. Hyps, as the rest of us were, further down the thread.

As for Arco or Ulm being boring in either game... I've had lots of fun with both and don't find them boring. Arco has five types of melee infantry, three types of cavalry, plus fun chariots and elephants, very nice priestesses and magicians and astrologers... Ulm is really fun for trying to squash magic with heavy metal, and for trying to keep an elite corps alive in the face of huge resource costs to raise troops.

I think it's really a matter of personal preference, which is why it's good there are so many varied choices for nations.

PvK

[ October 30, 2003, 16:35: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

hey, i had an idea....not sure if it was already brought up or not...and, it may not even be a good one...but here goes:

This is concerning the Light Infantry usage from earlier in the post btw....

What if, Scouts could command a group of say 10-20 Light Infantry? That would give them some usage....and, Scouts would be able to take over some low defense territories possibly....

That I think would give them some definite use....but, what do you all think about this?

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to nickpick, but I didnt quote Jasper in first instance. He initially quoted a post of mine were I spoke of doms I Hysps versus doms II hysps. The post of Jasper I'm refering too is the one posted at 13:38.

So back to the point of my initial post :
I was dealing with the fact the Hysps in dom I were at 8 resources, compared to hysps of doms II at 18 resources. The difference being only 4 in defence between the two (and here too I'm speaking of doms I hysps at 11 def versus doms II hysps at 15 def).

Hope it clarifies.

[ October 30, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sorry to nickpick, but I didnt quote Jasper in first instance. He initially quoted a post of mine were I spoke of doms I Hysps versus doms II hysps. The post of Jasper I'm refering too is the one posted at 13:38.

So back to the point of my initial post :
I was dealing with the fact the Hysps in dom I were at 8 resources, compared to hysps of doms II at 18 resources. The difference being only 4 in defence between the two (and here too I'm speaking of doms I hysps at 11 def versus doms II hysps at 15 def).

Hope it clarifies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In the Jasper post you qouted, in the post I quoted, the different values Jasper gives are the differences between hypaspists and hoplites, wether or not you originally discussed dom 1 versus dom 2 hypaspists Jasper tried to point out that hypaspists were useful and based his assesment on the stat differences between hoplites and hypaspits in dom 2, these stat differences are the values given in Jaspers post. Also the resource increase in the hypaspists are consistent with all other unit in the game. The resource difference between dom 1 and dom 2 hypaspists is based on a resource value cost assigned to the different armours and armaments. All units have their resource costs calculated in this way, ie add up resource cost for helmet to res. cost for plate hauberk to res. cost for long spear to ... ... To arbitrarily change the cost of hypaspists away from this forumla to make them useful, allthough I allready think they are, is a step one should take with some caution, I think.

[ October 30, 2003, 18:42: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

ok, if a formula is used for resource, fair enough.

Has someone reported by the way that some Abysian infantries have a 2 handed weapon with a shield? I dont recall if its in the normal theme or in blood of human, but it is rather strange anyway (and convenient when you play Abysia).

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, there is bug with this.

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't play Arco very much in Dom I because i found it a very boring nation, but i have started to play with Arco in Dom II. IMO the Hypastists are good enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Arco boring ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif !!
You surely prefer those wonderfully varied Ulm infantry or Pythium Legionnaries ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Frankly Arco was in Dom1 a very interesting nation, powerful and flexible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
Well about the new "Heavy" Hypaspists, they are surely more balanced than in Dom1 (where they made in fact the core of an early-mid game Arco army), and made Cardaces totally useless...
Perhaps they are now just too close to Hoplites, so won't find their "slot"...
But I think that in Dom2 they are to be considered as they were used historically : small contingents of elite troops that boosted their friends'morale ...

And about LI slaughtered by archers : no, it wasn't the case, because the LI fought in very loose formation, and archers shooted "en masse" towards a unit, didn't target individuals.
The real danger was for medium light-armored troops that fought close (eg barbarians, Medium Inf..)

Re: in which occasion will you raise taxes
 

It seems to me that hypaspists beat hoplites.
Consider a attack 10 unit with a spear (13 dam total) attacking one of each.
Against the hyps he has -3 attack-defense and -2 str+dam - prot. Considering this you find he has ~ a 30% chance to hit and ~30% chance to deal any damage. So he has about a 10% chance overall to hit and deal damage.
Consider the hoplite. The spearman has a +1 to hit and -6 to damage. This gives a 60% hit chance and 16% chance to damage. Now if I'm correct this gives about an equal chance of getting hurt to either unit.

The odds of more damage decrease more rapidly with the hyps, so it's less likely to suffer higher amount of damage and takes less damage overall. Increases in enemy str/weapon damage and decreases in attack will favor the hoplite, but considering that the hyps have 1 more strategic move and 2 more morale I'd favor them. I also didn't take the hoplite increased weapon length repel into effect, so against sufficiently low morale troops they might be better.

Still, I think the resource cost difference makes the hyps superior.