Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>can been done with scripting, remind me the specifics? it was 35 wardens against 100 flags, and what magic levels should their gods get?


It was 10 wardens backed by a god with nature-9
versus
35 flags backed by a god with fire-4 blood-6 (or potentially fire-9)

I'll get around to it eventually, but if you want to testbed it... fell free.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

A lot of the disagreements so far are different focuses of the game. Some people like more basic infantries; some like mages; some like powerful gods; some hate SC while others regard them as a part of the game. Give the developers a break, there is no way to please everybody. And they have their vision to the game too. The only choice is option to disable some of the spells, and limit research below a certain level.

My opinions on some of the points:
1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed? And as the other said, if you want more gold, raise the richness of the map. Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance. If you think that 200% taxation and build the most units is the right kind of game, you're allowed to do so. But it's a matter of personal taste.

2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed? To me, things have improved. Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable. Moloch cannot give you free devils. Both Moloch and Wyrm now look a bit overpriced but I guess somebody is going to prove me wrong soon. The dragons now might be the all purpose bargain pretenders but they can be killed. The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, and to a lesser extent the Statues and Monolith. They're disruptive because they're spoiler which destroy the prospect of one opponent without adding too much to yourselves. They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels. Blood slaves are harder to get because of the requirement of blood mages to collect slaves. Ice Devils need 55 instead of 30, level 5 instead of 4. Horde from Hell needs 30 instead of 20. Father Illearth is now a level 7 spell. Even the wimpy Dark Vines are moved from level 3 to 5. And no more Pazuzu util level 9. Is it not far enough? I don't think anybody know until we've played the full-game for a few months. Especially when now, both nature (better Treelords, Tarrasque), death (various Tartarian Spirits) and astral (Juggernut) get their super-conjurations now.

4) Death Magic. I guess your complaint is because "Raise Skeleton" and "Raise Deads" don't need gems while the Summon Lesser Elemental do? Nobody has complained these two spells over-powered in Dom 1. Death was weak in Dom 1 - I think Dom 2 has improved on that. Is it too far? We'll have to see how people use it in a full game.

5) Evocation. I don't see the problem yet. Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1. Mages teleporting into a province and demolishing a whole army has always been there in Dom 1. Some people love it though you're free to find such tactic unfun. What are your suggestions for game play? Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun. You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.


>Give the developers a break

I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?


>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

You haven't looked closely then.


>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

See a difference yet?


>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?


The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

That's what has changed.


>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

A bit, yes.


>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.


>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.


>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.


No they are not more expensive!!!!

Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.


>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

In what way?
I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

If anything it's much more deadly.


>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

It's more than a trick. It's too potent.


>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">HOORJAY!

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it's way too potent - insanely powerful. But weaker than Dominions 1, since mages now just kinda shoot up in the air like a sprinkler http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

So - nether darts is overpowered, but you can't claim that as a reason Dominions 2 is worse.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again... raising richness increases resource production, greatly altering the game balance. This would be a viable suggestion if gold richness and resource richness could be set independantly, and with finer granularity than low-med-high.

-Cherry

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>The sphinx in all it's cheesy glory is confined to its home castle. Immobile units cannot teleport.

Really? Tell that to my Last few dozen Sphinx's.
Might want to look into that... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ November 03, 2003, 18:23: Message edited by: apoger ]

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed.

[ November 03, 2003, 18:49: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>>Alex, sorry, to me, your post is borderline troll and I didn't even want to respond to it. But since it's cause such a stir, I'd put in my two cents.

>So I'm a troll just becuase I have some negative opinions? Get real.

Your comment is trollish, or as the other had said, jumping the gun before seeing the whole game. I don't mean that you're a troll (a faithless backstabber who keep winning the game, maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Trollish because of there were a lot of complaints without much constructive criticism. You also expected the game to follow a certain way and therefore complained a lot of aspects wouldn't be as fun. You're totally entitled to your opinion, but I guess some of us are quite thrilled to see the high power magic-fest.

But let's not call each other's name.

>>Give the developers a break

>I'll give them a break when they give me a price break on my purchase. Fair enough?

A fair complaint http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>1) Resource. Dom 2 stops the patrol-and-tax trick. Other than that, I don't see much is changed?

> You haven't looked closely then.

As close as my ability limit me to http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Order now actually gives you more bonus for income (+10%). Productivitiy and Growth now give less bonus but it's just a shift of balance.

>Order is 7%... for those that are paying attention.

I saw two numbers on the board. One said 7%, the other said 10%.

>In Dom I order was an effective 10% due to the ability to rasie taxes without penalty. With prod and growth the combined bonus was 60%. With a fortified city it was 110% (more really due to bonuses stacking).

>In Dom II the combined bonus is 33%. With fortified city 57%.

>That's a pretty big difference, and that's before any patrol tricks.

>See a difference yet?


I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

If I'm right, it's 21% + 18% (39%?) - (growth and productivity add 3% each level?) versus 30 + 30% (60%). Assuming your base income is 3000 gold by turn 30, it would be 4800 vs 4170. Big enough but I don't see it very significant - could be my play style.

>>2) Pretender SC. It has always been like that. I can't even count how many Wyrms or Molochs I saw in Dom 1 games. What have changed?

>The cost of everything besides the pretenders. This effectively makes the pretenders vastly more potent.

>That's what has changed.

For a MP game, you can raise the richness of the world. Increase the site frequency. Or give everybody a few starting provinces. You need to tweak the game settings to your flavor and find like-minded people but I don't see that a fundamental fault of the game.

But if you like the patrolling routine, then we'll need to persuade the developers to allow adjustment of population loss. Harder but not imposssible.

>Rainbow mages are now less expensive and more viable.

>A bit, yes.

>The only problematic combo I saw is a Prince of Death in Ulm's hand, equipped with full armor and the Boots of Behemoth. It could be more or less unstoppable by turn 10. But I'll have to wait to see how things turn out in the full-game.

>That's the only problem you have seen?
There are dozens (if not hundreds) of combinations that are just as bad if not worse.

Show me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

I was limiting to the amount of gems you could get from your capital site. So, no boot to most except for Ulm and Vanheim. Great Mother is usable but her fatique will be quite high after a few turns. PoD is undead and can abuse his melee advantages easily. It's before turn 10. So I'm limiting to only one magic path, below level 4.

The cost of the pretender I used was less than 100 points. If you invested enough in your pretender, of course he will be powerful. But that's a conscious and risky choice of stratgy, not an abuse. People can of course use a Titan with water and air, but they're doing it at their own risk. We all know how risky it is to put all the eggs into one basket.

Yes, I understand that you don't like too much emphasis being put on the pretenders, any suggestions that can allow the game to accomodate both sides of the spectrum? An option to double the cost of all points related to pretender power?

>>The only pretenders SC which I found disruptive to the game in Dom 1 are Sphinx, <snip>
>They're less attractive and powerful in Dom 2 because of less item slots. Or should we just take them off the list?

>No, the Sphinx is back in all it's cheesy glory.

I don't see that.

Sphinx is expensive and limited (one misc item only now). You can't even use it to break a seige!!

You can totally decapitate a player in the early game. A good and intimidating move but you're asking for diplomatic trouble that way. Moreover, unless you put more magic on it, a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral and (incredible it may sound) it doesn't really qualify as a super-combatant to me. If he has more magic, any death will be the loss of a lot of points, which is especially probable as a Sphinx can't retreat.

But of course, all of these are related to my preferrence of game strategy. Your mileage could be very different.

>>3) Blood Magic. All the major blood spells are more expensive now and most are at higher levels.

>No they are not more expensive!!!!

>Blood summons were only raised 50% in cost while other economies were increased MORE. In effect blood summons have been made cheaper.

I don't see that.

Gem economy in general is not more expensive. It's less affordable to hire mages. But it will be the same as Blood hunters.

Gold economy is worse (though it's around 20 to 30% worse in my calculation). That's everybody agrees on. It's just some people hate it, some love it, some find it tweakable and tolerable.

>I am about to post a long essay on blood magic, I hope you give it a read.

Not in a sarchastic way - I can't wait http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

>>Wrathful Sky is less powerful than Dom 1.

>In what way?
>I see thunder ward gone. No easy defense (and it wasn't easy for most to begin with).

>If anything it's much more deadly.

It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

BTW, does anybody know whether higher level mages get higher resistance while casting the ward spells?

>>Seithkona nether darts is not a problem - it's a trick for Jotun.

>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.

>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>Not even in the same universe as nether darts.

"Flame Eruption" is more powerful and at a lower level than "Nether Dart". Some nations have very dispensible mages to use them. They have short range - their only limitation.

"Astra Fire" is not as potent but cheap and of a lower level.

And the "Wrathful sky" you've mentioned.

There are other killer spells. I don't see them anywhere worse them the "Darts". Even "Rain of Stone" is quite useful as long as you have somebody with high enough hp to use it.

"Nether Darters" are also very vulnerable to "Mind Duel". You can also counter it by increasing the MR of your troops. It's powerful but it's a level 7 spell.

If you don't like high-power army-devastating spells in general, that is another discussion. That'll involved putting in some options to tone down magic in the game. Not a bad idea at all. How do you want to implement it?

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

thats my part of the comments, which go either in the direction of Alex arguments, or in the opposite:

- combat pretenders are more powerful in doms II that they were in doms I, because they didnt change, but as gold income is reduced by a factor of 2 (a bit more actually, see below), they gain advantage relatively. A doms II nations with a combat pretender will develop way faster than a nation without (Alex got 36 provinces by turn 20 with a dragon, I got 18, just the half, with a rainbow mage, same settings. Ok it can just mean I'm really bad in this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ).

- The highest gold income in doms II is 250 gp in your capital. You cant really count on doubling that by patrolling, as several mechanisms concur into making the idea a really bad one (more unrest, and big decrease in pop). Compared to doms I, where you could patrol easily your capital, and reach nearly 600 gp a turn.

- non blood nations gained some big summons, but as only blood nations can really hope to get and hold demons princes, the situation has not so clearly changed in favor of one of the two clans. Blood harvest is more difficult, but from my experience, when you succeed, you get more slaves, so the situation is not that clear.

- nether darts are not * that * overpowered. To be correct, nether darts are not overpowered when you have an anti magic ward, as the damage need a MR check. Lamias with AM ward dont need to fear the darts, eg.
Also the larger battlefield is rather detrimental to accuracy (fireball and flare have lost much of their interest by the way).

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh, ok.

Edit: I checked, you are right. I had the strongest recollection of it being changed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, so they can still teleports?
Is this getting changed in some patch or not?

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">admin add to tax. full admin in doms I, half admin in doms II.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the formula has not changed, and is :

admin * scale bonus * tax rate

in doms I without patrolling it gives :
1.5 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 2.535
380 gold for 30000 pop capital
with patrolling (order dont increase max gold output):
1.5 * 1.3 * 2.0 = 3.9
585 gold for 30000 pop capital

in doms II, without patrolling (hey sure!) :
1.25 * 1.33 = 1.6625
249 gold for 30000 pop capital

and thats it : 249 gold versus 580. In these 580, you need to recoup the draft cost of patrollers, and pay there upkeep though. Significant, but 50 archers cost only 25 gold in upkeep, and 400 gold to buy.

So the ratio is that you have half the gold of doms I in doms II (for the capital).

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>I don't think Castle admin add to tax income, only resource? Am I right?

No.

Admin in Dom I added in as a direct bonus. In Dom II it adds 50% of the bonus.


> a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral

Almost all my Sphinx's use fire and/or water in order to get fire shield and/or breath of winter. You can have both up at the same time BTW. It kills troops plenty fast, and the ability to teleport into and deal with the biggest enemy threat before it can move, is huge.


>I see thunder ward gone.
>It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

Not only partial defense, but it only affects a handful of troops. It's not good enough to defend an army from wrathful skies.


>>Seithkona nether darts
>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.
>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

It's more than "nether darts".
It's seithkona-nether darts.

The siethkona are incredibly cheap and are very available. The combo is simple and cost effective. That's what makes it better than other spells.

Astral fire isn't something that any mass produced mages can cast.

Flame eruption requires very close range. In Dom II this is much harder to get since armies start farther away from each other.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It most likely will. We were all surprised to find that it hadn't been implemented.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Welcome to our club, partner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The 7% for order in D2 is more important than the 10% in D1. In D1 any province that could pay for its patrols in 3-4 turns got them asap and taxes were upped to 200%, even if that meant decreasing the pop there. As a result you didn't get these 10% extra gold from order from these provinces, and combined they often contributed for 75+% to your total income. True, with high order you needed less patrollers, say an extra initial 160 gold investment for order 0 (compared to order +3) and 11 gold more upkeep in every subsequent turn - but these extra costs didn't come close to these "lost" 30% from order +3.

I must say I like the D2 economics better. In D1 everyone - maybe even you - thought this patrol trick was bothersome and silly. Everyone felt compelled to pick growth +3 and order +3 for the extra gold, almost disregarding the increased productivity and growth - dumb. Everyone felt compelled to pick a 35+ admin castle for the same reason - dumb. Now that there are less no-brainers, we have more choices, and that's good. The only problem is the costs of units and leaders should have been scaled down to fit the new economics.

BTW, am I the only one to patrol my capital and raise taxes to 200% when I have idle troops there? I've never been so rich in D2 than when I tried turmoil +3/luck +3 and started to slaughter my commoners with all the free militia I got. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm eagerly waiting for it.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Welcome to our club, partner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey!! I said the comment is trollish!! Not that AP is a troll - there is some subtle difference!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Anyway - if AP found that comment offending, I apologize http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do have the suspicion that with turnmoil+3 / luck+3, you'll get more income from random events than the shortcomings from the tax penalty. If you could compensate the 20-40% shortfall with patrol, it might be an interesting strategy. Say, if you use C'its with the Desert Tomb theme, you might be able to compensate with the undeads later in the game - yes, I better stop before I stop ranting incoherently.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You might want to read back on that one Alex. While I may have misread it my understanding was your argument was that bless effects weren't going to make into MP except perhaps with Flagellents.

[/quote][/QB]
>5. MP = early game supercombatents? Am I the only one who finds early game super combatents dieing left right and center when used carelessly? My "Back to the Ice Age" Jotun race has awesome early supercombatents and all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things! Sure they smash low damage dealers but I wouldn't have thought two handed weapons were a hard to achieve counter?

We obviously have different definitions of super combatant. [/QB][/quote]

Thats rude Alex. I have read through many of your Posts in the Last few days and taken them seriously and tested your statements because I respect your opinion. If you are going to blow me off with vague throw offs after I have attempted to make a reasoned argument I'm left wondering why you are in such a bad mood and why have you given up on reason all of the sudden?

In know what a SC is Alex - you taught me!

Please Alex pull back from your grump and discuss because as yet you haven't given much backing/detail at all to your claims and I, and others, need to hear examples of the SC's you are talking about. Otherwise you are responding to me like I'm just to stupid to play this game properly so you can't even be bothered explaining your view.

Keir

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for all the glory details http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . I guess why I didn't pay enough attention is more I tolerate the new math better - or I regard that some change of parameter of a problem to be solved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . But the original argument still stands, you can always double the richness. Or as another suggested, another improvement will be to seperate the Gold and Resource settings and allow finer tune.

I also find the new "Order" scale forces me to make some painful (but good for gameplay) tradeoff. To raise income, I need order but I'll have less beneficial random events. Some of these events are very significant, I've got a Lore Master and a Stalker (the ethereal assassain). I hate to lose them because of a +3 order http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif .

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hold on! If I will change the tax rate, the income won't change??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>I do have the suspicion that with turnmoil+3 / luck+3, you'll get more income from random events than the shortcomings from the tax penalty. If you could compensate the 20-40% shortfall with patrol, it might be an interesting strategy.


That's one of the first things I tested when I got the demo. No such luck (no pun intended). You can't make up the shortfall with a turmoil-luck strategy.

The potency of the luck stat seems to have gone down. Particularly if you take order, which is almost a given in the low gold enviornment.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

Income will surely change, but some of your loyal subjects will have to face the winter without food, as you are taking it to pay your growing armies and greedy wizards. Add patrolling armies that hunt down complaining farmers, killing their revolting kids, raping their daughters to keep the unruly in line and you have an additional bunch dead peasants. After a while you have fewer farmers to pay your taxes.

To sum up: Players dislike evil men and if they would raise taxes they would be evil, so they try to be nice, at least to their own people. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Therefore there are fewer players that would consider raising taxes. It is nice to have a community of morally correct people.

We count on the same moral standards to keep blood magic and necromancy from being widely used http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you know as me that the standard settings will be more often than not adopted in PBEM.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes I would like that, I think it is SC which posted (as in Saber Cherry, not Super Combattant...). Otherwise, with so much resources, the bias versus heavy units would be even greater. So rich settings ok, but only for gold then.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quite true, some events are really crunchy. I got a visit from an astral council too.

[ November 03, 2003, 20:42: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hold on! If I will change the tax rate, the income won't change??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yes it will change, but you will pay direly the cost, so in essence, it is not viable to fiddle with the tax rates on the long term. This is why I didnt care to post how a 200 % taxed province churn in doms II.

There is case where you want to tax at 200%, like being at bay, or depriving an enemy of the income of a soon to be lost province, but thats another matter.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>While I may have misread it my understanding was your argument was that bless effects weren't going to make into MP except perhaps with Flagellents.

My argument back then was that I didn't see how the bless effects were going to be competitive, but that I'd wait for the game to come out before judging.

The flagellents discussion was that they are more efficient for the blesses, which is something I still believe.

The "pizza bet" was about a specific battle between wardens and flags.


>We obviously have different definitions of super combatant.

>Thats rude Alex.

You are taking offense where none was meant.
You said "all it takes to kill one is a few lizards with pokey things!".
Super combatants don't die to a few lizards with pokey things. Not what I call super combatants. Hence we must have different definitions.


>Please Alex pull back from your grump and discuss because as yet you haven't given much backing/detail at all to your claims and I, and others, need to hear examples of the SC's you are talking about. Otherwise you are responding to me like I'm just to stupid to play this game properly so you can't even be bothered explaining your view.

My apologies if I appear grumpy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
I have offered examples of super combatants in a few places on these forums.

Perhaps I'll write up a new essay on a bunch of different designs. In the meantime I pasted a Manticore SC design to the thread "Second class super combatants" just a few hours ago. Check it out there.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

> a Sphinx doesn't kill fast enough with Astral

>Almost all my Sphinx's use fire and/or water in order to get fire shield and/or breath of winter. You can have both up at the same time BTW. It kills troops plenty fast, and the ability to teleport into and deal with the biggest enemy threat before it can move, is huge.

An Sphinx with 6 Astral and 3 water will be 238. Affordable but still expensive. You do expect a pretender of that cost worth its dime, right? Teleport is good but that's just the benefit of Astral. If it's too powerful, will raising the point cost of Sphinx 150 suffix? It's fixable.

>I see thunder ward gone.
>>It's there. Now you need only Air 2. You mean it only starts at 50%? And thus detrimental to game balance? May be. But I'll have to wait and see.

>Not only partial defense, but it only affects a handful of troops. It's not good enough to defend an army from wrathful skies.

True.

But if you argued from the other side, mages are now more expensive and less dispensible, storm no longer stop archers. Arrow Fend is not 100% (and never was) neither, right? My inclination is to wait and see how it turns out in the full game.

You can use this trick with an Air pretender. But then we will go back to the old arguments how much weights of the Pretenders or Scale Economy to the gameplay should be - it's better to be changeble as some game options.

>>Seithkona nether darts
>It's more than a trick. It's too potent.
>You have similar killer spells in other paths: "Flame Eruption", "Astral Fire".

>It's more than "nether darts".
>It's seithkona-nether darts.

>The siethkona are incredibly cheap and are very available. The combo is simple and cost effective. That's what makes it better than other spells.

This might be true.

I won't mind just Siethkona-Nether Dart alone. But with the new blessing effects on Woodmen and the wonderful new Woodman scouts, their extra national points, Jotun might become one of the most powerful nations.

One possibility is to limit Seithkona to capital only, like similar mages for Abysia. But again, the whole balancing issue need to tested in full MP games.

>Astral fire isn't something that any mass produced mages can cast.

>Flame eruption requires very close range. In Dom II this is much harder to get since armies start farther away from each other.

But Flame eruption is even more disruptive than nether darts. In theory, you could put the mages at the frontline and have a few hold commands for their guards, It works very well in Dom 1. But of course, most Fire mages are not as cheap as the Seithkona.

I need to test how well the spell AI handle the extra distance in Dom 2. Have anybody tried?

BTW, joke aside, nobody should complain Fire magic sucks because of how lousy the spell Fireball is. The true power of Fire evocation spells are at "Falling Fire" and "Flame Eruption". IMHO, Fireball is only level 3 and thus appropriately a low power spell. If you want to toast somebody, stick your mages near the frontline and see them use "Flame Eruption" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a mind excercise, I am pondering the mobility problem of HI. I'm not sure the HI is as good as it looks.

I found being only able to move one province on the strategic map per turn is a sever handicap. On the Eye map, I got stabbed hard by AI as Abysia because my HI couldn't move to save my province in time.

So, launch raid into your enemies' territory with light troops, plunder and leave before their HI catch up, might now a possible tactics.

But of course, they could try to crush you like a bug with their HI - if they still have enough gold to sustain them. I wonder how it'll work out in a real game.

At least, the mobility issue will give an incentive to use Hypaspist over the Hoplite.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

IMHO the pretender SCs in MP won't be a problem. It is not a problem in SP at all. If you don't want to abuse the AI, than do not do it. Simple. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is a better explanation as it gives me something to reply to.

I sent a Jotun Gode with a Niefel Giant against a province of ~20 Lizards with tridents and one Shaman. Pretender Earth Mother with Earth 9, Nature 9 so the Niefel giant gets +4 prot, berserk 3, reinvigoration 4 and regeneration. I was inside my dominion - neighbouring my home province. The Giant died very quickly (they either do that or live generally). The Gode retreated.

Perhaps you would argue that the enhanced Niefel Giant doesn't qualify as an early game supercombatent but I think thats hard to maintain - sure there are better and who better than you to design one.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have been short with well meaning people which suprised me. But I figure you are much closer to Dom I than I and thus losing alot more - for there is a real loss involved here to me.

Anyway thanks for the smiley. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I will and respond. Thanks for geting into the details as I find many of the general statements being used confusing. Lacking details its hard for me to accept the opinion of someone whose experiance, on the surface at least, contradicts mine.

In the mean time are you sure you want to write an essay on SC's? People seem to be doing alright without to much encouragement http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Perhaps an essay on races using basic troops as the basis for rapid expansion - this is always a useful thing to have.

I have always used early game killer armies very effectively and I shy away from pretender SC's as I'm not prepared to accept the risk involved. I like to try to win through consistent execution of a whole game strategy not blundering over the top of someone while praying they don't have "the counter." So far I have found this a perfectly viable approach to Dominions and I'm not convinced its going out the door with Dom II.

Don't worry, be happy . . .

Keir

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

>Perhaps an essay on races using basic troops as the basis for rapid expansion - this is always a useful thing to have.


In that vein;

For C'tis check out
1 Lizard King - casting fanaticism
73 Light Infantry - yes the lizard LI! Orders to fire at closest.
2 Sacred Serpent - In seperate squad behind the LI square. Orders to attack closest. Do not add them to the infantry or they will fail to toss javelins.

While they do take losses, this squad can do some serious damage. Sometimes the simple things are effective. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you anticipate human players, add in a Shaman and have him cast 'curse'. That can ruin a super combatants day.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Great to read of a effective LI based method of expansion - and with an easily accesible SC counter.

Now if only I'd stop spending so much time on this board I might get some experimenting of my own done plus give your chuckers a go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

cheers

Keir

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Close enough to what I used in my Last C'tis test:

1 Commander + 1 Sacred Serpent as bodyguard - stay behind troops.
up to 24 (avg 15) Swamp Guards - forward, center, hold & attack closest.

1 Lizard King - rear corner, fanaticism.
up to 75 LI - forward (a few paces behind the HI), left flank, fire closest. When the LK gains his first star, split in 2 LI ~50-strong LI squads and put one on each flank.

When facing mass crossbows, leave the Swamp Guards in the rear, replace them with skeletons if available.

Re: Did you noticed.......
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A similar tactic works well for Machaka. Actually, you don't have much choice considering all the 2 protection Javelin tossers you start with. ;-)