Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>To me Tien Chi magic seems very... muddled.

So far I only see two good ways to exploit their magic.

1- Wait for an air-2 mage, and get the Celestial Summons.

2- Use communion to drive up the mages power levels.

Seems limited. I'll have to play with it some more.

What I do like about TC is the troop selection. They get both archers and crossbow. I also like the footman with glaive for 10/10. It's lightweight, but packs a heavy weapon. Better than many other junky light troops.

The horse archers seem interesting as well. I haven't found a way to exploit them yet... but I'm trying.

I'm still trying to develop a good feel for the nation. If anyone else has found some way that it shines, let us know. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I took order 0 (or -1) and luck +3. I got all three before turn 30 (or 20, I've forgotten http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . Random increase of local defense is nice but I don't find them very useful. Spending 1 to 2 gold on each province can be easily afforded.

Thier units are not resource intensive...

Their heavy horseman is 25 gold and 28 resource. It is equivalent to Emerald Guards. They don't fight as well, but they shoot, charge and run away fast if things don't go their way. I don't mind using them as the bulk of my army.

The higher protection imperial footman is 13/18 and imperial guard is 15/21 - neither is cheap but quite affordable. The cheapest archers are 10/9 - not that much worse than Man's Longbow (12/6) while their composite bow is comparable.

Red guard is 70/42. I don't find them very impressive. But comparing to the other holy cavalries (Knight of the Chalice, Black Templar), I guess you can say that they're at least cheaper (but weak).

I think Tien-Chi regular army units have among the best combinations.

As you said, they do get funny magic choices. The way following the Water is supposingly inspired by Chinese philosophy. It's a superficial way to put it but well it's just a game. Yes, I'm Chinese http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Master of the Way give you one water and thus quickness. They also have one random pick - quite a good buy for secondary mage. I'm still thinking how to use them effectively. Frozen Heart will be a possibility but that spell is not very destructive. Celestial Master is hard to use. I don't know how yet.

The three heroes of Tien-Chi are:
Ho Hsien-Ku: 2 nature, 1 air, heal afflictions, ethereal, flight and immortal.
Lu Tung-Pi: 1 fire, 1 air, 2 water, 3 astral, 3 holy, flight, yes and also immortal.
Li Tieh-Kuai: 2 death, 2 astral, 2 air, another immortal and your Celestial Solider Summoner.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

BTW, does anybody know how you can summon the "Demon of the Heavenly River" with Tien-Chi? The monster is there but I cannot get any mage to cast it.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A celestial master should be able to cast it. Some of the national summons for Tien Chi requires that random skill turn out a certain way.

[ November 19, 2003, 23:45: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A celestial master should be able to cast it. Some of the national summons for Tien Chi requires that random skill turn out a certain way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I used an rainbow mage pretender with level 2 in everything, excpet 4 in astral. Even she can't cast it. Do you have to be a Celestial Master to cast the spell?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Looks like the Tien Chi main theme can summon astral and earth, while the Spring & Autum theme summons fire, water, and death.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1.

[ November 20, 2003, 00:30: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

All these Tien Chi tidbits are killing me with curiosity. The heavy cavalry sound exciting - what is their Prot? If you put them on hold and attack do they shoot while holding?

Help appreciated,

Keir

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's kind of annoying that the "National Spells" section of the spell manual only includes national battlefield spells, and not national ritual spells (Desert Tombs, Ashen Empire, Soul Gates, and apparently several different themes of T'ien Ch'i - maybe Carrion Woods too?).

Anyway, I was able to cast Demon of Heavenly Rivers with my pretender (Jade Emperor - water 4 astral 6, although with what I know now I'd probably go for a rainbow mage next time; T'ien Ch'i needs access to a variety of booster items) in Spring and Autumn.

The Spring and Autumn Celestial Master is amazing - 7 magic levels, level 4 priest and flying for 250 - 2/3 the cost of an archtheurg. The only real weakness is the 1 astral making him a magic duel target against the astral big boys (Pythium, Arco, R'lyeh). And the low path requirements for the celestial summons go great with the CM's broad based magic. (I recommend a pretender that can forge Staff of Elemental Mastery and/or Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry - both CMs and Masters of the Five Elements gain a lot from multi-boosters.)

Oh, and the Gate of Spring and Autumn produces 6 gems a turn. Why should Pythium have all the fun?

Spring and Autumn doesn't have any cheap communion slaves though.

One more oddity with Spring and Autumn: their province defense is still led by Eunuchs, even though they aren't a normally recruitable commander. (I don't know if this sort of thing happens with other special themes too.)

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

The Celestial Master is Priest level 3 and they Fly 3. They are their own rainbow mages, basically http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Great search machines; by far one of the best uses for them.

I don't particularly like the fact that their nobles can only command 25 though; frustrating when you are packing around a ton of horses. Also those horses are actually one archer unit that works... well. And the Glaviers are very nice to hold the line.

Their regular armies get worked pretty hard by heavy cav and large numbers of heavy infantry. As the Horsies still shoot badly even with Aim cast on them multiple times. They work really well with low end enchantment spells that Celestial masters and the heroes have access to. Like Protection, Aim, etc. If only they had xbows ...

Though I guess that is what Demon's of heavenly fire are for, just need more fire gems and to summon them in droves!

Required Turmoil 1 is not nice, along with Magic 1.

Edit: Barbarian Kings has Turmoil 2 Requirement. Though they start out with "Spirit Mastery" which calls 15 Dispossesed Spirits for 4 Death Gems. If you can get an early stockpile of them (via Searching) you can have a quick abusive army with their Heavy Horsemen and Glavie Users.

[ November 20, 2003, 08:12: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I can only say this about R'lyeh ... ug.

They are fairly one dimensional. But ... ug. They are definitely upper end.

One more time for the children ... ug.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My guess is that you are playing the standard theme. Demons of Heavenly rivers is not available to the standard theme. Casting it only requires astral and water 1. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. Much to my embarassment, I found it out myself Last night too. Spring & Autumn and the default themes feel like two very different nations to me.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

The Nobles leadership of 25 is supposed to represent the fact that the armies of the Spring & Autumn period (couldn't resist using the name) 722-481 BC were rather small and the fighting mostly done by chariot-borne noblemen. Honour and prestige rather than territory was the goal of the battles (according to D.A. Graff).

The default theme of the nation is the classical empire thing and the only one that is orderly. Actually I was tempted to make order 3 an obligation for the default. The bureaucracy of imperial China was outstanding.

The ancestor cult of early times was renewed with the barbarian incursions and their beliefs.

Oops, I got carried away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Spring and Autumn theme seems intresting. Where did th name come from?

I suppose that Barbarian Kings get also Masters of the Way in addition with Masters of the Dead?

BTW, looking at the all units file, there seemed to be awfully few BK specific units, The Khan, Master of the Dead and the two Barbarian Cavalries. I would have liked to see more Mongol-type units. A Khan hero would also be nice.
Do the Barbarian Cavalries have a pillage bonus like the normal Barbarians have?

[ November 20, 2003, 21:50: Message edited by: Nerfix ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, the Spring and Autumn nobles are really interesting. Spring and Autumn has no chariot troops, so the nobles tend to trample way into the enemy ranks by themselves (while racking up fatigue from all the trampling).

As Sun Tzu said, if a general is careless, he can be killed.

I also like how the conscription effect is tied to order, and the non-bureaucratic special themes require turmoil - thus they can't get conscription.

And as already posted, I love the Spring and Autumn CM. Two things I left out before:

1. Many of T'ien Ch'i's mages (including the CM and Master of the Five Elements) are amphibious due to their water magic. If you have independents set fairly high, the amphibious merc companies may not be able to take a sea province by themselves, but with some support from a CM they probably could.

2. The CM's astral isn't just for communion - it's good for Power of the Spheres, too. There are a lot of cross-path spells you can cast with two of one path and one or two of another; a CM with Power of the Spheres gets two (or more) of a lot of things. I'd also advise crystal shields, in addition to the aforementioned Staves of Elemental Mastery and Rings of Sorcery/Wizardry. (A lot of mages are powerful with these items, but the CM get more from them than most.)

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Tien Chi looks quite interesting, but am I the only one completely put off by expensive mages with Astral 1?! Tien Chi looks even more vulnerable to Magic Duel than Marignon!

Celestial Masters run in fear from any faction that starts with an astral mage -- more than half of them! Not to mention anyone who happens to find Crystal Amazons or Lizard Shamen, or even Sages.

Playing Tien Chi just sounds painfull.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>Tien Chi looks quite interesting, but am I the only one completely put off by expensive mages with Astral 1?!

The more exposure I get to Tien Chi the more I agree. I like the troops, and I like some of the summons, but the mage power is lacking. I fear that the late game will be hard on TC.

Still, it's early to be writting them off. If I still feel the same way in three months...

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

You have to spend an average of 8*90=720 gold on sages to get an astral sage... I don't see that as a very cheap or reliable way to hunt Tien Chi mages... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Solution...magic duel immunity item! It would solve the problem of astral weakening mages, but still leave mind duel as a valid strategy because not every astral mage will have one. That way all you people can stop worring about magic duels so much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't send the non astral ones to hunt Celestial Masters. :-/

If you are recruiting sages, you will get some with Astral. Facing Tien Chi, an obvious tactic would be to have them Magic Duel the drastically more expensive Celestial Masters. This is bad enough even in the weakest case (Sages), and gets much worse when you face any faction with signficant Astral power.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would like to second this.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Maybe a helmet or something. And not "Mind Hunt" immunity, or even more early supercombatants would surface, but perhaps a 6 Construction item that requires a certain amount before you could use it. Say Astral 3. Or you resist a mindhunt, but it has a chance to cause an affliction based on ... something. Totally negating mind hunt with an item IMO would be counterbalancing.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

A Magic Duel Immunity item seems too specific IMHO, but then a broader Astral Immunity item would be too much...

I'd be happier just tweaking Tien Chi's Celestial Masters so they had an extra Air magic rather than Astral. There are enough races with Astral magic as it is.

IMHO this is more in theme with the elemental nature of Chinese Magic; letting CM's Cloud Trapeze is particularly apt -- isn't Chinese Mythology where the idea for the spell comes from? It would also make Tien Chi much more viable.

IMHO even just removing their Astral skill would improve Celestial Masters. :-(

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have no problem with a specific defense to a unbalencing weakness. Mind Duel is terrifying for weak astral mages and providing a way of protecting them adds to the possibilities in the game.

I would suggest a Con 4 helmet, requiring astral 1 or 2, which blocked all use of Astral magic and provided defense versus mind duel - you turn off your own Astral and thus gain protection. Seems reasonable to me.

cheers

Keir

(confusion over Marignon diablolic faith points edited out)

[ November 21, 2003, 21:13: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Johan ... you were right.

You can't expand fast enough for the theme to work if you play anything but a short/fast game. Perhaps there could be a reworking that maybe population is eaten slower or that the good units (Like the Black Centaur and the Pans) were buildable everywhere.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Or maybe if lots of vinemen/ogres/mandragoras rise up in strong dominion, regardless of population... then the pop-killing thing with a growth scale would make sense=)

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would like to second this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's easier ??:

- Tweaking all nations mages so their weakness to magic duel is balanced in one or the other way.
or
- Making another item which has to balanced and adds another opportunity for micromanagement
or
- Tweak the spell to be more sensible.

I vote for the third. It's unnecessary anyway - there aren't any duel spells with the other paths, so why should it be there for astral?
Or to put it the other way 'round - a mage cannot target another mage, unless both know astral magic. All of a sudden both become big fat, not particularly fast moving targets ... .

A.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try the following:

Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Earth - 4
Death - 4

Turmoil 1*
Sloth 1
Growth 2
Luck 1
Magic 1* .. *preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" and the mages...

A.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

> It's unnecessary anyway - there aren't any duel spells with the other paths, so why should it be there for astral?


Agreed.

How's this for an agrument... Magic Duel is -NOT FUN-. I consider it a burden. It is added complexity that almost never makes the game better. At least in my opinion.

Any other opinions? Does anyone out there ENJOY what magic duel brings to the game? This is perhaps the question that needs to be asked.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Apoger, if we drop out all things that people find -NOT FUN-, Dominions II gets pretty poor in the content.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

But I think it may have been put into the game as burden to make people think twice about one of the unique abilities of astral mages, since toned down in Dom2 - namely gateway. Sure you can blip entire armies around the map, and get a special attack before the other guy moves, but make a mistake, and blip into a province with a better astral mage, and run the risk of stranding that army, with appropriately dire consequences.

I also don't see how the management of dueling is especially more burdensome than some of the more mundane management tasks - ensuring that your armored Ulmish hordes aren't going up against too many crossbows, or whether the enemy might have a force capable of using wrathful skies, or whether they might use one of the other instant-death spells like disintegrate, etc.

It also comes with its own fair share of risk, now that it is no longer deterministic.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try the following:

Frost Father
Fire - 4
Water - 4
Earth - 4
Death - 4

Turmoil 1*
Sloth 1
Growth 2
Luck 1
Magic 1* .. *preset

Watchtower
1pt left

... makes interesting bless for Celestial "Ogers" and the mages...

A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm. Interesting, but can't summon celestials. I'd rather not have to rely on the 250 gold CM to summon celestials in the early game.

Also, I don't think the reinvig blessing is all that good. 2 fatigue per turn is just not that much if you are frequently casting spells that cost 20+. It might give you one extra cast in a long battle (of course you have to bless first, I usually wouldn't bother unless celestial demons are present). It seems to me that air blessings would be more useful for both the celestials and the mages.

Would you really take sloth? I have enough resource problems without it... those leather armors seem to cost a lot of resources for the protection they provide.

Well, one of the things I like about Dom II is that there aren't any completely right or wrong answers in pretender design. It's all tradeoffs.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a question that I suppose only the MP vets can answer, as the AI doesn't use magic duel.

Why is it any -LESS FUN- than any of the myriad other ways you can get stomped? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As a MP vet I would like to agree with Alex and Arralen.

Mind Duel is an obnoxious, no fun at all, kill lotsa race ideas mechanism that is a thorn in the side of MP Dom and has been kept in the game to let us vets now that while Illwinter listen to us they are in charge. ( http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

That was serious except the Last bit.

I have never suffered from Mind Duel personally in MP so this is not a "I got wasted" whinge. The reason I never suffered from Mind Duel is I never played an astral race!? Why - to avoid the horrors and stupid randomness of Mind Duel.

In practice in Dom1 mind duel killed off maybe half the race design options for me. Don't play it because you, and everyone else, knows the absolutely brutal, largely uncounterable way of ruining your race - ooh thats fun - so much fun!

Fun in MP is related to the application of skill. While skill could and should endure a fair degre of randomness there is bugger all skill in wasting someones weaker astral mages and nothing they can do about it except not pick the silly race in the first place or invest in the Astral King crap shoot. No thank you.

Thats why its not fun - the counter to Mind duel for many, many, races is simply not to play them (or if you do don't use their mages).

That only reason I restrain myself from harranging Illwinter about Mind Duel once a month is that the Last few games MP I have played in have simply Banned Mind Duel. Nah nah nah nah - who is really in charge Illwinter? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif You can take my pants but you'll never take my freedom!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Keir

[ November 23, 2003, 21:44: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK

[ November 23, 2003, 21:46: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Acutally, you simply have enough gems to summon exactly 1 "Oger" one turn and 1 "Discthrower" the other turn, so you could get along the first few turns with a CM bought on the first turn.

IMHO it would be a waste of ress. - the pretender should either be doing research (19pts vs. CM 10pts) or go searching sites (Fire, Water to boost the somming). By the time you get the gems for more summons, you should have either a second CM or a "lower" mage with astral ability.

Added death because the low-level MDs could use them not only for summoning undead, but for skeleton med.(for themselves, so they are of some use in combat after doing the initial blessing) and Horror Helmets for the chariots.
Plus the lesser fear might be nice on the River Demons.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My fault. Accidently postet my first idea (w. earth), not what I actually settled with.
But I'm not shure what would work better, especially if you get your mages some more reinv. from items.

Than I found them to be real arrow magnets, so maybe air shield is the better option...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the point:
Do not use the standard footmen, use the heavy ones and archers in even numbers (hold and attack/ fire xy; placed just left to the center so the archers can get in 3 rounds against normal inf).
While ress.cost is roughly doubled so you get only 66% of the numbers, losses to the front line will be drastically reduced.

Build watchtowers in ressource-rich provinces (hills, forest) and you'll end up with 60..90 ress. Those ressources should be enough to build 1 chariot or a mage plus some troops each turn.
Interestingly enough, in 4 of the 5 testgames I have started with this or a similar layout my home province was forest, the 5th was hills..

By the way - 4 Demons of Fire with "fire at closest" are _really_ devasting - and surprisingly accurat, so friendly fire is negligible ...

yours,
A.

[ November 24, 2003, 07:44: Message edited by: Arralen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I'd like to propose a different solution to mind hunt (or whatever it's called). Too many interesting Dom1 Posts had a long segue of 'I'd do it, but the vulnerability to mind hunt sucks'.

How about a Construction 6, Astral 3 Helmet with:

Protection: 2
Defense: -1
Immunity to mind hunt/(magic duel?) and feeblemind.

Restricting use of astral doesn't sound very good to me, since the reason I have these mages on the field is in order to use things like Star Fires. The immunity to feeblemind (and therefore the dreaded Black Bow) increases the usefulness. Of course, something like this should have a moderately high gem cost to counteract this gross specific protection... it should at least be more expensive than the bow is.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Perhaps the effect of Mind Duel should be lessened. Instead of death or permanant affliction. (This is just the mind duel spell; not mind hunt)

If a mage is the subject of a Mind Duel and loses; he is then affected by a powerful paralyze as his mind is overwhelmed but does not die; unless they are overrun. It doesn't cause Morale Failure or Routing behavior but any positives are no longer counted (Standard, etc).

That would make the mages useful and not a throw away of economy. Or you could make Mind Duel take longer to effect.

I think providing a total immunity would hurt those who invest a marked amount of points into Astral. If you look at the astral selection spells are useful; but nothing truly powerful. Even Stellar Cascades (which is one of the best and most widely used spells if you happen to be a Communion Friendly race and even very valuable if you are not) is strong but not overpowering.

The thorn of mind duel should NOT affect race/pretender construction by avoiding it completely but how to deal with it. Perhaps the answer is to give those with base astral some easy access to Communion or units that allow easier communion.

[ November 23, 2003, 23:33: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I still have never seen a magic duel. Does AI ever do it on its own? Do I have to script my astral mages to do it?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do. I think it's interesting. On the other hand, I understand the objections, and think it'll be good if/when it's a spell that like all others, can be easily modded out of the game if players prefer it not be there.

PvK </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like Magic Duel, despite the limitations on Pretender design it induces. It's a decent limitation on Astral magic, which IMHO is brutally powerfull without it -- it's strong enough as it currently stands. I also like it's flavor, and the way it differentiates Astral from other paths.

Astral magic has some of the most powerfull Evocations, Alterations, and Thaumaturgy.
Star Fires, Stellar Cascades, Ethereal, Luck, Astral Weapon, Astral Shield, Teleport, Gateway, Soul Slay, Mind Hunt. It's got a bunch of good spells that also require other paths too. It's argueably the most powerfull path, despite Gateway and Star Fires being weakened.

My only problem with Magic Duel is that I think it should do 200 fatigue damage rather than kill the loser(s).

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I have never seen the AI initiate a Magic Duel and yes you do have to script it. Or cast a Mind Hunt.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

I've had the AI use Magic Duel against me, quite successfully even. For the whole story, check my post in the "Dominions 2. AI. Suggestions, that how to fix it." thread, currently on page two.


K.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like Magic Duel,
. . .
My only problem with Magic Duel is that I think it should do 200 fatigue damage rather than kill the loser(s). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats a big difference Jasper. If that was what Mind Duel did my objections would decline.

As another poster put - all those discussions on dom1 races that ended with "I would play it except for the vunerability to mind duel." That sentence summerises Marignon race discussions in Dom1.

I love designing and honing races. Doing so for me is closely tied with questions like - does it work in MP? Though I play only a fraction of my designs in MP that is what they exist in relation to. Mind Duel is a killer on Multi-player options. MP needs lots of options or it becomes a bit stale over time what with all the analysis and play that goes on.

And that is why I dislike Mind Duel so much in its current form.

The good news is that banning Mind Duel from use seems to work fine. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Does banning Mind Duel make Astral too powerful - dunno.

Cheers

Keir

ps. I tend to agree with Jasper that Astral remains one of the most powerful branches of magic.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

>That sentence summerises Marignon race discussions in Dom1.


Heh, check out Tein Chi. They are the new poster child for magic duel smack down. Makes Marignon look strong (from an astral standpoint).

I like the fatigue idea, but would suggest 100 rather than 200. If it's 200 and the mage has cast a singe spell, it'll be instant death. Perhaps the new "paralyzed" flag would be better than fatigue?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, all those spells that are very good and help to build very strong individuals, they are also mostly low path requirements.
Star Fires 1 Astral
Stellar Cascades 2 Astral
Body Ethereal 1 Astral
Luck 1 Astral
Astral Weapon 1 Astral
Astral Shield 1 Astral

... etc.

All you need is 4 Astral, or even 3 or 2 if you want to try to empower.

I think that Mind Duel is to make the very powerful effects of Astral have a reprecussion and lower the chance of the Supercombatant armies that they have been fighting since Dom1.

Edit: I didn't mean that Astral was not powerful; but with the inclusion of Mind Duel it's power is not overt. You take a chance having Astral as opposed to any other school which has no countermeasure. I had way too many conversations and Posts going on at the time ;/

[ November 24, 2003, 01:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That sounds more in tune with my image of a duel on the astral plane. Have them paralyzed for the rest of the battle (60+ turns) with an easily negated MR check to avoid feebleminding.

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Do I like races with crippling disadvantages or do the sort of races I like tend to have crippling disadvantages?

I love Tien Ch'i but so far I'm under impressed. Inability to find orders that allow the double armed cavalry to do their things is a big part of the problem. It sad when your defining troop type is messed up.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Keir

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I find their 25 gold cavalry, composite Bow, Lance, prot 14, and strategic move 3 to be good. True, the kinds of orders that would really take advantage of the combined lance/bow are too conditional for pre plotted movement. Still I find either setting them with no orders or with orders to attack rear depending on what I expect them to face to be effective.

What sort of order to you envision that would really help them?

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

The question was not directed at me, but I was thinking about the "fire and attack" order. We now have "fire and flee", "hold and attack", so "fire and attack" where a unit would fire its missile weapon for two or three turns (or two or three times I guess for crossbows) and then switch to attacking seems logical. And useful, not only for Tien Chi, but for friendly fire mishaps as well, for example, when you're facing a weak army and don't need a constant barrage of arrows/bolts.
I'm also thinking about legionnaires, as this was their standard tactic historically. If the enemy is not in range, then the squad would approach that turn, as missiles do in general. But it would suit Tien Chi cavalry even better, as they would cause disorder with their bows first, and then charge the shaken formations with lances. Very effective in theory.

[ November 24, 2003, 07:54: Message edited by: HJ ]

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like mind duel. Astral is said to be the most powerful Arcana (in manual, if I'm not mistaken). There's nothing like having your mages picked up one by one by a superior astral mage. It really makes you think strategy. Really. It pisses me off, but I tend to take it as a learning experience.

Counter-balance-wise other paths have better summons and mass-destruction spells. What astral can do to that end?

Dabble in astral and be ready to pay the price. Master the astral and be one to collect the price. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- Humer

Re: So far what nations look strong... and weak?
 

Astral is brutal in the end game, easily the most powerful field excluding Blood summons, and it also has some good tricks for early expansion vs inddies. The good thing about astral is its versatility, and the fact that the related ward can only protect to a certain degree.
I would be willing to prove the point vs anyone that thinks otherwise. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Concur with most of Jasper's points. I like having Magic duel in the game (and this from a player that has spent quite some time playing a 2nd tier astral nation), tho the effects from a lost duel are open to debate & suggestions.

I cannot see how some players claim that 'banning Magic Duel increases options', IMO it does the opposite: every single SC pretender will be designed with some astral proficiency because it gives both mobility & the *best* combat booster spells. It's the best magic to have on a SC with the risk removed, and gives Mind Hunt immunity as a bonus.

[ November 24, 2003, 09:34: Message edited by: Wendigo ]