Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Just thought I'd repeat this, since I really would like to know and no one replied:
Saber Cherry made some amazing suggestions back there, has anybody (especially: the devs) taken that into consideration?

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Luck scale can be good if you get lucky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Sometimes I've gotten several gold 500 events with just a few turns in between at the start of a game, and nary a negative event in sight.

I still think getting one's capitol hit with an earthquake (or something similar) during the first 5 or 10 turns should be impossible.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Even when searching for sites always have a squad of guards and make sure your pretender has some scripted commands.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Hey, Lintman, check the math. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you lost $150 in each of 5 games, and won $50 in each of 5 games, you'd have lost $500 total, not $750.

The only way you'd come out with $750 lost overall is if you won $50 in each of 5 games, and lost $150 _more_ (in terms of absolute magnitude) in each of 5 games, i.e. you won $50 5 times, but lost $200 5 times.

Also, I'm going to start testing and taking note of a bunch of different luck scales and the testing of what happens where in my games, to try and get a possible track on what's happening.

Also, one Last note, with only 3 events possible, you might want to take the Lady of Fortune pretender with misfortune, if she triggers before normal event checks, as she would cut down on the number of bad events. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just a neophyte's observations.

Wyatt

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Well, count my vote for keeping random events in pretty much as-is. I like games with random events: makes all my puzzle-solving, aquarium-owning, control-nut friends work for a livin'. :-) More seriously, I don't mind losing a game to an event - I'll get them next time. Besides, there's oodles of luck in combat, but because we don't see the 'die rolls' we don't complain.

I would ask one thing, though - killing off population by 1/4 or even 1/10 is pretty dang harsh in a game where population growth is tiny. Those events should kill a very small number of people (like 1%); the huge numbers don't seem consistant with the rest of the game.

-Jeff

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Jaif, I totally agree. It's the 1/4th population disaster that frustrates me to no end. I pick +3 Order and +1 Luck and still have my capital hit with the 1/4th nuke...

Incredible fury is generated which completely contradicts my otherwise adoration for Dominions II.

Either nerf the 1/4th event or add a 1/4th population growth event. The way population works now, you can easily eliminate population, but there is no easy way to increase it.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I would like to add my two cents into discussion. For some reason in about 75% of MP games I've played so far people seem to prefer "rare" random events settings. Obviously in the MP game with such settings combo Order3/Misfortune3 is more attractive than on "regular events". So far I choosed it in pretty much every MP game that I've played on "rare" random event settings, and I like the results so far - the bad events are rare enough to be of rather minor annoyance, but 120 free scale points from "misfortune 3" can go a long way toward imporving your dominion and/or your pretender.

Thus being said I reilize of course that such situation deals with game settings different from "normal", therefore it probably should not be considered for balance purposes. The reason why I meantioned this is that based upon my (still somewhat limited) MP experience so far "rare" events settings seem to be pretty common there.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Doh! I had the math correct originally, but at the Last second before posting, I changed the numbers without double-checking and screwed it up! Sorry about that.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Depends on the crowd I guess, since all the MPs I've been in thus far have been with common events. Generally "common" is probably more common http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif , since it's the default setting.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You think losing 1/4 population is bad? On one of my mosehansen games, turn 10, with Luck _3_, I get a random (Tidal Wave) that wiped out 40% of a province, leaving it with 9500.

I'm sure the people of the province are thankful they live in a land of such wondrous luck: "Ayup, half my family and neighbors were wiped out - but I'm lucky - I ain't got a nail in my boot."

Like you, I'm immensely bothered, upset, frustrated, by the random events and so-called "Luck" in Dom 2.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You think losing 1/4 population is bad? On one of my mosehansen games, turn 10, with Luck _3_, I get a random (Tidal Wave) that wiped out 40% of a province, leaving it with 9500.

I'm sure the people of the province are thankful they live in a land of such wondrous luck: "Ayup, half my family and neighbors were wiped out - but I'm lucky - I ain't got a nail in my boot."

Like you, I'm immensely bothered, upset, frustrated, by the random events and so-called "Luck" in Dom 2. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">ROFL! Love the comment about the nails. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the population growth event would have to be higher than the population death event, or it's not even. In the case of a 1/4th (population goes to 3/4ths of original), you would need an event that increase the population to 4/3rds (an extra 33%, IOW) to even it out.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Well now that ive seen the light im not all -that-certain the luck scales are imbalanced.

Remember, and just by the descriptions if not actually experience, the Magic and Luck scales go together. Ive seen the light i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . 1500 free twice makes a horse's mouth very attractive.

Remember population is just income. Its worse to endure if you get hit with a 1/4 loss in your capital (which happened to me early in a multi game, bleh) but its just income lost. So you lose 50/turn in your capital. 30 turns? Does this equal or surpass the bonus resources given during the same time with high luck? I don't have enough data to make a judgement.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:

Quote:

You think losing 1/4 population is bad? On one of my mosehansen games, turn 10, with Luck _3_, I get a random (Tidal Wave) that wiped out 40% of a province, leaving it with 9500. I'm sure the people of the province are thankful they live in a land of such wondrous luck: "Ayup, half my family and neighbors were wiped out - but I'm lucky - I ain't got a nail in my boot." Like you, I'm immensely bothered, upset, frustrated, by the random events and so-called "Luck" in Dom 2.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have a 4:1 luck to unluck ratio with luck +3. While it doesnt make you immune it certainly alters the odds significantly in favor of luck events. And as you can see from some Posts in this thread not everybody agrees that the badluck effects hurts more then you benefit from goodluck. In dom 1 you could make yourself practically immune to bad luck events by choosing the correct scales, then people complained that they never got to see any bad luck events because because everybody allways played with those scales and there were requests for an adjustment of the scales so more bad luck events would hit you even with optimal scales. Now when that change has been made people are complaining for the opposite reason.

Many players tend to overvalue losses compared to gains (and I would argue that both Mr Cainehill and Mr Montya in this thread are guilty of this), a 25-40% poploss of the home province in one of the early turns is from time to time lauded in this forum as a reason to quit a SP or maybe even giving up in MP. That is obviously a setback but it does not come close to approaching the loss of income you will incur by choosing order 0 or even -3. Starting with order -3 instead of +3 represents a permanent 33% income loss in the home province, well on par with many of the worst events. And this income loss will come to affect most if not all of your provinces. The occasional poploss events is unlikely to ever come close to having such a negative impact on your overall economy. If anything both bad and good luck events should be cranked up.

EDIT: On pop loss in general: It is not an oversight that population decreses it is a design choice, there is a global war between would be Gods going on, people die. There is also game mechanic reasons why opportunities to farm population are sparse. We did not want dominions to have the sort of population farming and herding mechanisms that many civ like games have suffered from.

[ March 28, 2004, 20:56: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Fortunately, the devs have given us the ability to mod the scales.

As I understand it, the scales can be modded such that no unlucky events ever occur in luck 3 dominion. But keep in mind that some of your provinces will not be in your full dominion effect. And one thing that makes misfortune somewhat attractive is that "hostile" lucky dominion I believe still prevents certain unlucky events.

Even when I take luck 3 I have yet to see the 1500 gold event. Maybe I need to take other scales too. I don't know.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True enough. You can alter them for your own enjoyment as you play. Maybe even offer the mod to others who feel the same way. (someone asked in another thread if this game had any chaeat codes. One of the answers was MOD)

But I wouldnt expect it to get general acceptance. Especially not to the point that you will ever be able to play using it in a multiplayer game. As I understand it ALL of the games players have to run the same mods. Still I think some mod changs have been useful in convincing people that the original settings were a pretty good idea after all.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm almost 100% certain you need some +magic scale as well. Remember the description of the scale talks about luckily finding magic objects. Although whether its 2 or 3 magic i can't say.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I think many underestimate +500 gold event in the early game. You can buy a lot of extra troops or hire couple of mercenary bands. Either way, it's 1 turn bonus to your expansion plan. Comparing to that 1/4 population loss is not that bad. Even it happens in your home province, the impact is not felt immediately and by the time income loss has accumulated (to let's say 500 gold), you already have many other provinces, so probably getting +500 gold and 1/4 population loss in the capital on the same turn is a good event.

Those extra gems events also may be underestimated, if you get right gems it boosts your plans a lot (making important item one turn earlier or summoning one turn earlier). Considering, that these extra gem events are happening quite often, they have significant positive effect.

The really bad event, probably worst I've seen is to lose the lab. Early in the game you lose 200 gold and one turn worth of research. And this even can't happen in unimportant province, because you don't have labs there. Even later in the game when the importance of the random events is much smaller, losing a lab in the research center is quite bad. Again one turn research loss http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

But if you get really good event (+1500 gold) and loss of lab on the same turn, is it positive or not? I'm not sure, maybe it depends on the nation.

So far, it luck/misfortune seem to be balanced to me, but whether the perfect balance is achieved or not, nobody probably knows.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

The worst event possible is this.

I was playing Ulm during the demo and on my first turn, an earthquake struck and obliterated my temple. Now normally temple losses arn't really bad, but it was my only temple. Thus I could build no preists to build more temples, and my pretender could not build temples either. My dominion was 3 luck as well so it was simply the luck of the draw I guess. Needless to say I restarted. But by far that is the most crippling event I have had happen early in game.

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ March 29, 2004, 03:13: Message edited by: Mandalore ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could have appointed your starting commander as the prophet, and had him build your temple.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your right, I could have. I didn't think of that at the time, but if it ever happens again I will remember that.

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Another thing to consider is the definition of luck.

If you play ermor, you wont mind population loss events that much. However, getting Militia units that demand upkeep will quickly reduce that 200 gold you saved for a temple to zero. Definitly no luck.

Anyway, everyone complains about those money gain/population loss events. So what would you like? Population gain/loss events or money gain/loss events? Money loss events can easily be avoided by having no money at the end of the turn. On the other hand, Illwinter already said that population gain events are out of the question.

So, what do you propose?

[ March 29, 2004, 13:44: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

With all respect to the designer (and I'm actually on your side for this one, honestly), I think a real issue involved is simply that if I pay 120 points for Luck3, it is still possible (if not likely) that I will take a 25% Income loss in my capital first turn, which means that my start is slower and, from what I've heard, can be a death knell in MP.

To rephrase, if I'm taking Turmoil 3, I've worked that into my battle/strategic plan. Taking Luck 3 and getting too many negative events early (especially if they are nasty ones) can really skew the battle plan. And, please note, that if I don't spend those points, it is a case that it's more likely to happen.

Just my thoughts.

Wyatt

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, maybe. Turn 10, I lose 40% population (around 9000). Turn 11 - my VQ doesn't attack. Turn 12 - +1500 gold, magic item, and "huge amount of XXX gems".

I admit, that luck event overshadowed the population loss - and my population _still_ doesn't have nails in their shoes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I think the events are ok. Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you buy high Luck and Order scales, you also have to keep those scales active over your important provinces, since the provinces scales determine what happens - not your base dominion scales.

Some possible ideas though:

* Since the random events are partly supposed to be the side-effect of a war between the gods, it would make sense, promote fairness, and reduce frustration, to limit their occurrance during the first year or so of play.
For example, two checks could be made for each potential random event:
1) If the event severity number is greater than the current turn number (or perhaps, half the current turn number), the event doesn't happen.
2) Roll 1d10 or 2d7 (or maybe 2d7 plus event severity * 2 ) against the current turn number - if the roll is higher, the event doesn't happen.

* The "rain kills 25%" event seems odd because rain isn't generally that deadly. Rain of infected blood, yes. Rain of molten lava, yes. Asteroid strike, yes. Unprecedented monsoon rains causing massive uncontrolled floods, yes. Plague of [random color] death, yes. But just rain? No. Dull but deadly? I'd suggest replacing the plain rain with a random dozen other very-deadly-sounding descriptions, for variety and so it sounds more appropriate.

* The "population are leaving the province" would be nice if some of the population would also arrive someplace else.

PvK

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I could think of a few things that could be done here:

1) Like I said, reduce the percentage of pop hits. It feels out of place to me.

2) Why can't "travellers from afar" decide to settle in a province? It needn't be a big number, but plopping down 500 new settlers from off-map into a province would be neat.

3) An at-start moratorium on *all* events as an option from 1 to 10, with events starting on turn X.

Just some thoughts.

-Jeff

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

The most important point as I see it is that the real level of luck, what the player will feel as lucky or not is not really determined by the luck scale at all.

With +3 luck and other negative scales, the player is going to see a veritable horde of catastrophes as many good events are prevented from happening and many negative are made possible. It may be that the player overall gets more positive than negative events, but the door is open for all but the most nasty events while many positive are prohibited.

Contrariwise, at -3 luck and very positive scales, while bad events are more frequent, some bad events cannot happen because the country's other scales are too positive.

As such, luck is a magnifier on the other scales, not a scale with an inherent worth (unless you are into void summoning or cross breeding).

And that is a LOT to pay 120 nation points for (luck+3) if it means that your other scales are less fabulous.


The issue is compounded by the 3 random event limit, as it means that, unlike all other scales, the effects of the luck scale does not scale with the number of provinces owned.

If you invest in order, production, or growth - you are benefiting all your provinces each and every turn with a tangible benefit. Likewise heat/cold for those that use it. Even magic, as it affects the MR and research of all creatures whereever your domain holds sway. And it works the other way as well, take negative scales, and you suffer in each and every province each turn.

Only luck is an exception.

Whether you have 3 provinces or 100, you will only get 3 random events. As such, the larger your country grows, the less relative negative impact you get from misfortune and the less relative positive impact you get from luck. Once you reach the threshold where you receive 3 random events per turn, the effect of luck peters out with further expansion - which makes those 120 points for luck+3 even less worth, if you expect to run a big nation.

In other words, luck is not just an exception, its functioning principle is very nearly the opposite of the other scales'!

Get rid of that 3 event cap, please. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I thought there was an immigrant event - just apparently rare. Am I mis-remembering?

EDIT: Good points, Peter. That probably has a lot to do with why I haven't seen lots of bad events in my Lucky games compared to others. I didn't lower my other scales much in those games, and probably the people who got nailed by bad events did. Though, I think Luck does also increase the odds and/or possibility of some of the best positive events, so there would still be some effect even after the "threshold" is reached. I agree though that it'd be nice to remove or tweak the 3-event maximum.

PvK

[ March 29, 2004, 22:18: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, it certainly does. Having good scales in general AND a good luck scale will regularly give you some VERY good events. It is just that the way it seems to be working currently, unless you are cross-breeding/void-summoning or already have maxed most other scales, it is almost a no-brainer on any decent sized map not to invest in luck but to invest in other scales instead - or to take an extra magic path to 3 or 4 for the 120 points.

There are exceptions to this rule, such as the -3/-3/-3/-3/+3/+3 Ermor setup, which funnels nearly all good events into gem events (which is exactly what Ermor needs) and where the majority of the bad events (and you will get many bad events) don't really matter because people are already dead anyhow, but they remain rare exceptions to the general case.

[ March 29, 2004, 22:37: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

has anyone suggested that random events be totally disabled for the first 10 turns of the game? or 5 turns or 15 turns? maybe that could be a new game option. feel free to twist, add, subract, deform, and/or reform this idea.

[ March 30, 2004, 01:46: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If I remember correctly most of them are. For 10 turns I think. And the ones that arent are downplayed to the point that you almost have to take the extreme settings which could translate as "just plain asking for it" to get the worst ones to kick in. But this is foggy memory stuff.

And we do have a game setting for random events. Isnt there a thread somewhere here that tested all that?

The only test I ever did on this stuff was turning ALL scales to the worst possible settings to make maximum use of blessings (achieving all 4's and a couple 9's) and being very surprised that my capital didnt totally crumble in the early part of the game.

[ March 30, 2004, 02:02: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

there are still events like labs burning down during the first 10 turns. One time I used a pretender with no magic, and before I could recruit my first mage, my lab burned. I just quit the game after that. (this was an MP game)

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Just remember - people who wimp out and quit games as soon as something goes wrong, don't get to complain later that the game is too easy or predictable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

A game can be completely fair in its odds, and some players will still think otherwise and/or get upset and cheat the odds by quitting, if there is any chance of luck playing a major part. Even if the major loss events were removed, there would probably be people quitting because they didn't get the event they wanted early enough, or complaining about unfairness in MP games. Ah well.

PvK

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gee that would be a setback but there are plenty of merc mages that show up early in the game.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rain not deadly? Rain is very deadly. It'll burn holes through solid stone and eat away flesh and bone on contact, in some areas. If you go outside in the rain, you can be reduced to a dissolving skeleton in seconds.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have had the unrest in my capital go from 0 to 58 in my capital in turn 3 due to the "Young raging rebels" random event in a luck 3/turmoil 3 setting. Turmoil 3 might be asking for it - luck 3 is not. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

(That was the same game in which my capital temple was wiped out and 25% of my #2 province's population lost within the first 8 turns. With independents 9 slowing expansion, that really, truly, hurt. Sometimes, you are just plain unlucky - no matter what your luck scale)

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

I have also toyed with the idea of having an option in game creation to tweak the scales rather than using a mod, which may be too complicated for some players.

Also, I wonder if it is possible to dispense with the luck/misfortune scale completely (so it can't generate points) and have no random events. That would be interesting to try a time or two.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Luck 1, Order 1, Turn 5

Random Event: Some local lord reveals himself to be a vampire and attacks your province. My home province of course.

I wonder why he did not bow to my vampire queen?

Thank you, new game please.

[ March 31, 2004, 18:22: Message edited by: PrinzMegaherz ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

There are so many players who quit as soon as they run into some serious bad luck. It's really too bad. Against the AI, these events provide unique and difficult challenges which players will never face if the they just quit whenever something really tough happens. In a multi-player game, quitting when something bad happens is, well, quitting on the other players. Serious bad events are part of the game and can happen to everyone. Any low scales increase those risks - that's a big part of why they are worth creation points, and restarting whenever those events actually happen is like trying to gamble but refusing to pay up on a loss. Especially against the AI or in a large MP game, there are plenty of opportunities to overcome such problems.

Many players though do seem to have a hard time getting this, so for them it does seem like they would benefit from more scenario options and/or nation options that would severely reduce the possibility of bad events. Also it might help if the documentation had some more explanation of how serious random events are part of the game, and how all the scales (not just Luck) impact them.

PvK

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

PvK, I see your point, but having your home province beseiged by a vampire lord on turn 5 isn't a "unique and interesting challenge"; it's instant game over. You have no realistic chance of *ever* breaking that siege. You can't even raise an army to do so: your only fortress is beseiged!

Early loss of temples, labs, 50+ instant unrest, and even killing 1/4 of your population aren't necessarily instant death (although if you're in a MP game where the abilities of the players are anywhere near close, they're very likely to doom you). But having your home province beseiged by an immortal ethereal undead on turn 5? That's just ridiculous.

I thought certain events were supposed to be Banned from the first few turns - maybe Illwinter just forgot to put that one on the list.

IMO, the following should be Banned from capitol provinces only for at least the first 10 turns:
* Anything that attacks/beseiges the province (the aforementioned vampire lord, vinemen, the 5 heroes, etc.)
* Mass population killers (flood, emigration, hurricane)
* (maybe) Temple destruction - it's possible to recover from this by appointing a prophet to rebuild the temple, but I wouldn't mind seeing it added to the list anyway; prophet selection is crucial for some nations and this can force you to create the wrong prophet.

I'd also like to suggest some new bad events that I think are less severe than some of the existing ones:
* Some of your troops in (province) have contracted a deadly disease. (Immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* (Commandername) the (commandertype) has died of a sudden illness. (Pretenders, immortals, undead and inanimates exempt, requires growth 0 or less)
* Some of your troops in (province) have deserted your armies. (Pretender, prophet, sacred and mindless units exempt, chance of desertion depends on morale, requires order 0 or less)
* The province defense in (province) has become lax in its training and its effectiveness is reduced. (can only occur if there is some province defense there, requires order 1 or less)
* A thief has stolen (number) (type) magic gems from your treasury. (requires order 1 or less)
* [(Commander)'s] (magic item)'s power has dwindled and it is no longer effective. (artifacts exempt, requires magic -1 or less)
* (Province) has revolted against your rule and declared independence. (Requires high unrest but no scale requirements, the province generates a new set of independent forces which then attack your armies there; province defense fights on the side of the locals and if your armies win anyway, it is eliminated as if you had just conquered the province.)
* An unemployed mercenary commander has decided to set up his own kingdom in (province). (Requires the presence of an unemployed mercenary company in the mercenary list. It attacks the province and if it wins, becomes the garrison of the now independent province.)

Basically, anything that attacks your *present* power would be (IMO) less severe than the mass population killers which seem to be one of the most common bad events currently, even with high luck scales. Provinces attacked by neutral forces are fine - except if it's your home province very early - because you can always fight them and get it back relatively unharmed. But a province that has been torn down can't be built back up - at all, ever - and that makes pop hosers, especially early, very very bad for nations that aren't dead Ermor.

Taking away some troops, gems or items is clearly a bad event - even for Ermor, although some of the troop events I mentioned don't affect undead - but it isn't permanently crippling. And it's more in line with the good events, which give only one-time benefits (although some of them are fairly large one-time benefits, they still don't stack up to losing 50+ income *every turn forever*).

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's only an "instant game over" if both your pretender and already produced troops are also dead, as the count's army isn't that hard to dislodge. You only need to make them rout after all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not certain to doom you, since the other players also likely had similar events, or they paid the nation points to prevent them. The vampire count's immortality means nothing in this instance, since he isn't in friendly dominion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These two already exist.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I entirely agree! Luck is a part of the game, but it shouldnt decide a strategy game in an instant. I my opinion, a MP game is only interesting if all players are on an equal level:
A crippled development can hardly be recoverd quick enough in MP, hence that player is an easy prey, but not a challenge for the other neighboring players!

Please: include an option to disable severe random effects on capitals for the first 10 turns. Thats all that is required to settle the issue in my view.

[ March 31, 2004, 15:11: Message edited by: Chazar ]

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, of course not, unless the vampire count refuses to rout after killing his mindless peasants and begins to flood the field with soulless which, after a long battle, even kill my vampire queen.

I dont mind it, it was SP after all.

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

It's still not really game over, especially in SP. In MP, it's time for diplomacy and secrecy. Independent attacks never assault a castle, so you should have some units that can be mustered to relieve the seige, while perhaps you summon some creatures or forge magic weapons (bye bye, ethereal protection) and/or research appropriate spells inside the castle. Also, if you were prudent, you have some cash reserves and can hire mercenaries, and even without a castle, troops can be hired in other provinces. This is a good situation in which to use the so-called "useless" low-resource light troops, because for a single battle like this, strength can really lie in numbers.

Still, I agree it'd be nice to have limits on the early-game disasters, and I do like Chris' suggested events.

Oh, and I think it was earlier on this thread I mentioned I wasn't sure, but there is a "large numbers of immigrants arrive in province Q" event.

PvK

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does your immortal queen then immediately come back to your castle, allowing you to endlessly keep trying to break the seige using her?

PvK

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She did.
To be honest, I just took her to find out why most people in this forum agree on her being a good SC. She did not match my expectations however, and so I ended this game

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She did.
To be honest, I just took her to find out why most people in this forum agree on her being a good SC. She did not match my expectations however, and so I ended this game </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">From my experience, Vampire Queen is a good SC, as long as she has some decent equiptment. Without equiptment, however, she lacks sufficient fighting power to defeat anything substantial by herself, unlike a Dragon or Wyrm could. Therefore, VQ is more of a mid-game SC, rather than an early-game land-grabing SC.

-Gateway103

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I could not disagree more.

For me, a Vampire Queen is THE early-game Super Combatant as the only item she needs to make her a nearly unstoppable force against living independents up to level 9 is a piece of decent armour and the order attack rear. Most any nation can have her attacking and taking provinces from round 3 and onwards (though only in her own domain as much as possible, just to be safe. Her attacks do glitch, very rarely). She doesn't need spells, she doesn't need swords, shields, &etc (in fact, she is better without ANYTHING in her hands) - she just needs armour in the early game. (Okay, adding a cheap Horror Helmet asap helps against the very toughest independents and as and when you develop booster magic it is nice to set her to cast it before attacking - it just is not needed against any but the very strongest types of independent units appearing in great numbers)

Re: Big Problem - Unbalanced random events
 

Machaka, Order/Turmoil 0, Luck 3, Turn 3, 1/4th of capital killed by rain/mass shaving accident.

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I second the motion to buff the fortune scale.