Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

Just a data point:

I think I am typical of the new crop of Dom2 players. Having never heard of Dominions or Shrapnel games, I read the glowing review in CGW this month... and still wouldn't have bought it, not with Civ3: Conquests still warm in my hard drive. I read the cool three-page battle report in the back of that same magazine and that convinced me to download the demo.

I played the hell out of the demo for a couple days and decided that I would buy the game. Sure, the graphics and sound were terrible, but the game-play more than makes up for it, I figured. So after searching the major on-line retailers to no avail, I finally went to Shrapnel's site and followed the link to the purchase page. Then I nearly choked.

$50 for game with nowhere near the production values as its contemporaries? Ok, it's got top-notch game-play that will no doubt keep me entertained for hours, but so does Civ3 ($40), BF1942 ($30 for the basic game) or KOTOR ($50). Forget it, I said, and shut off the browser in disgust. If I were still young and poor, I probably would have tried to find a "warez" Version somewhere, but I'm too old and rich for that nowadays - it's not as if I couldn't afford the game, it was the principle of the purchase.

I dithered over the decision for a few more days - effectively exhausting the demo - and eventually sucked it up and bought the game. My gaming buddies are still in the "that's CANADIAN dollars, right?" sticker-shock phase. If the game were priced at $40, it'd be a no-brainer for them, but there is something about paying half a C-note that gives people pause.

Anyway, one man's opinion. I paid for it, so how smart can I be?

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When I wrote "Warcraft", I was responding to your "Warcraft III":

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Warcraft III is definitely an expensive project. (And incidentally, its value to me is less than 1/10th that of Dominions 1 - in fact, I have no desire to play Warcraft III at all, because of the yawn-inspiring formulaic and artificial game "design".)

As for Warcraft I, yeah it had a smaller budget than Warcraft III, but I'm sure it also had a reasonable actual amount of money spent developing it, and graphically, I'd say it's rather less appealing than Dominions II. Meanwhile, Warcraft's gameplay is just typical RTS fare (perhaps well-done RTS fare, but personally, bleh to simplistic fakey RTS).

However, I don't have any problem with the Dominions II graphics myself, as my imagination is way better than any computer graphics anyway. The only downside I experience is that it is depressing seeing some others feel the game isn't valuable because it doesn't have better superficial artwork.

Furthermore, notice that it is a lot easier to make pretty graphics for a game with a piddly number of unit types. Even the games with million-dollar art budgets tend to have to limit the number of kinds of character and objects you can meet, because it's very expensive to make each one super-detailed. I'd rather keep the hundreds and hundreds of unit types, with easily-made graphics, than have really pretty graphics of only a few dozen unit types.

I'm sure that if/when Illwinter continues, they'll continue to improve the visuals and so on. The modding tools due out with the first public patch should let Users start helping with modified graphics, if they want to. Meanwhile, I'm quite happy that Illwinter are still more interested in providing the best gameplay rather than trying to improve the graphics.

PvK

[ January 11, 2004, 03:08: Message edited by: PvK ]

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

Personally, I don't think it is over-priced. Graphics to me is just....something to look at. Many of the graphically superior games that I have played (and wasted my money on) didn't Last 1 week on my pc.

This game, and Space Empires 4 will be on my pc probably till I grow too old to think and just simply fall over and die. Gameplay to me is more important than graphics. I have not had any trouble with Dom2 playing on my pc either, which i cannot say for many other games.

Civ3 costs only 40 bucks, BUT, that is for civ3 and it's first "expansion"....to get what Civ3 should have been at the beginning, you are going to be shelling out another 30 bucks for the Conquest Expansion. Battlefield 1942, i just never liked that one. I do like those types of games (playing Call of Duty like crazy). Call of Duty, I payed 45 dollars for....but even that, i think Dom2 is the better game (if you can compare the two). Warcraft....eh, been there, done that...time to move on. Knights of the Old Republic, i hate rpg's....so....10 dollars would be too high really.

I pre-ordered Dom2, and I have yet to regret it. I pre-ordered Civ3....regretted that until they finally put out the Conquest expansion.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

If you do not have money to invest in decent artwork, keep it crisp and simple. Don't use disturbing backgrounds and such in some of the various game screens. IMO the basic color scheme and pattern of the Dom 2 GUI is actually worse than that of Dom 1... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

The only thing worse than flashy graphics is poorly done flashy graphics. At least they provide an option to disable those ridiculous fade effects when various windows pop up and go away... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I still regret it... no way in hell I am paying them anything for the other 2/3 of the game I paid 50 dollars for in the first place. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

[ January 11, 2004, 08:52: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or maybe a pro graphic artist, not a programmer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif



<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In gameplay terms, this game is a master piece, but it has hard flaws in other areas.There's a lot of people that looks at games as a whole, not only a part of it.

As an example you have Space Empires IV, low budget game, very small dev team (1 person?), fantastic gameplay, more than correct graphics, and super modable, so if you dont like graphics or units, you can change it to your taste.IMHO illwinter should follow the path of MM, never forgetting gameplay, but improving less important but necessary aspects of the game...and moddability!!

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. Different things are important to different people, and different people have different tastes and standards. Practcally every game ends up with some people who love it and some people who hate it, and most somewhere in between.

Quote:

As an example you have Space Empires IV, low budget game, very small dev team (1 person?), fantastic gameplay, more than correct graphics, and super modable, so if you dont like graphics or units, you can change it to your taste.IMHO illwinter should follow the path of MM, never forgetting gameplay, but improving less important but necessary aspects of the game...and moddability!!

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. They have been. Modding is coming in the next patch, and Doms2 shows an attempt to improve graphics and interface. For academic example, look at the graphics of Space Empires I, II and III. With Space Empires IV, a new artist was brought in. I'd say it's a matter of personal taste whether SE4 or Doms 2 has "better" graphics. Again, I think the Doms 2 graphics are rather good considering the huge numbers of unit types, spells, items, etc. with unique graphics. Effort per item is multiplied by the number of items to get the total amount of work required.

As you say, hopefully once the mod tools are released, some talented fans will sit down and churn out massive amounts of improved images for everything. Meanwhile, I have no problem with the existing images. Sometimes a more abstract representation lends itself better to imagination than a more vivid, detailed or specific one.

PvK

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was quite surprised actually when my cousin came in to my room during a battle replay and commented on how good the effects were.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

Low budget is not an issue with me. If a developer can make a great game at low cost and therefore make more profit, fine with me. As for "low production values" (or lower than some other games), then that is somewhat of an issue to me, but is not as important as good gameplay. Doubtless, the interface and graphics do have an impact on this games ability to reach a broader market, but are not critical to me.

However, I have never paid this much for any game! KOTOR was under $43 including sales tax at a B&M store (on sale of course). I think the most I have spent was about $47 (including sales tax, but on sale) for MS Flight Simulator 2004 in a metal case. With most games, if you keep your eyes open for sales and buy at the right time, you can save some money. With Dom2, there don't seem to be any alternatives. I am very intrigued by the apparent depth of Dominions, but I am having a hard time seeing that it is worth more than any other game I own or could buy.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

If you enjoy the game what the hell is 10$ more or less. You can easily spend 20$ on night out at the movies. 1 Night. A few hours.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

Campy,

Has any game you ever played been worth more than you paid for it? Say for example a game that you couldn't stop playing, or that gave you more fun than you ever thought it would?

A game is only worth what you price your enjoyment at. Gambling is a Version of this and gambling to some costs more than you'd ever want to imagine. Yet people have fun doing it.

This game is more than worth it's $50.00 pricetag. If you are the type of player who is intrigued (or let alone even made it to this forum from any other review/guide/internet gossip ) then you should take it for what it is and not what others opinions of it might be.

The genre that this game is apart of is generally bargin bin. The reason is not because they are all lackluster, unimaginative, lowbrow, unfriendly or bad graphically. But because this entire genre does not appeal to the greater market. Those who play and enjoy these types of game are *accustomed* to paying less for them because of that reason. I don't feel any developer should get less money in order to meet a storefront or company chain's profit margin. The same type of people who are accustomed to paying $10.00 for a fun TBS game are accustomed to paying $200.00+ for minitature armies, outlandish amounts of money for historically accurate armors and helms, wads of money for Collectable Card games, and so on. It's a matter of perspective and becoming comfortable, not about what the game is worth.

If you are interested, liked the Demo, enjoyed what it had to offered and want more, you'll get your money's worth.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There's a few games that I would classify as falling into the Category of my alltime favourites. These are games that I can remember playing for hours on end, for days or weeks, and that I would still check out from time to time. This is around a dozen out of the well over 150 that I own in CD format, not counting the really old ones from my DOS days.

A quick rundown of those games would be:
Betrayal at Krondor - One of my favourite RPGs ever produced.(The instrumental track from Old Deuteronomy from Cats is a perfect soundtrack for some parts of this game.)

Star Control II - A serious contender for the best game I have ever played. The only complaint I can make about it now is that the ship combat AI is predictable once you've played against it a few thousand times. I special ordered it, and paid $80 CDN for this game when I was only 12, but never regretted it.

VGA Planets 3.X - This game ate up huge amounts of my time a decade ago.

Baldur's Gate II - Any game that will make me play it not once, but at least twice through a hundred hours is going to be right up there on the list.

Pirates! - The Amiga Version is one of the greatest classic games of all times.

Dominions 2 - The sheer amount of stuff you can do with this game, combined with my need to optimize everything about playing each race has put it in one of the top contender spots for a time sink.

There are a number of other games that approach these ones in terms of their greatness, but not that many.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

You can compare Dom2 to alot of games and it will seem that you "arent getting all you paid for" But it will come down to this. If Dom2 Lasts on your machine longer than any other game of close price, then it was worth the money. Dom1 Lasted 3 years on my machine (basically it stayed till Dom2). And I dont see anything that says Dom2 wont Last till Dom3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I played Starcon II and thought it was incredible (my #2 computer game of all time, after System Shock). And I played Wizardry 8 and thought it was quite good... but other than Quest for Glory I, II, and maybe IV, those were the only computer RPGs I ever liked much. And I've played a lot. Do you recommend Betrayal at Krondor, today? I mean... can it stand up to modern competition? ...is it like Civilization 1, "Fun when it came out, but outdated now" or like XCOM, "Fun when it came out, and is still its genre's reigning champion"?

And by the way, if you really like good games, you should check out Xenogears. It is the best game I've ever played (I think - certainly amongst RPGs), and it's hard to imagine it being beaten anytime soon. Console RPG, though, so much more linear than you may be used to.

-Cherry

P.S. As for the linear part: I view that as a good design decision, that let them build a strong plot and allowed for a well-developed narrative.

[ January 24, 2004, 05:47: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Exactly. You can easily spend $100 just going out to dinner. The idea that a game costs $7 more than some other game and thus isn't worth buying seems kind of strange.

[ January 24, 2004, 05:55: Message edited by: ceremony ]

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think that BaK can probably stand up fairly well to modern competition, and it might still be available for free from Sierra, so you can always try it out.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

BaK still is freely (and legally) avaiable out there.

It stands out not exactly due to technology or elegance of implementation (while I still think the combat system very clever and well done, apart from the fact that it gets too easy once you got mass freezing spells - or too hard, once your opponents do -, there's a lot of things I really hate about it... chests and traps mostly), but primarily due to the great storytelling.

It's much more of an interactive story with a lot of interesting things happening to various interesting characters you control. Unfortunately, it's bloody hard to get to run, and if you do, there's a high chance that it'll crash at the end of the chapter where you venture into the Elven Hold...

Definitely a "you could still play it today" game, though.

Re: Dominions II - Low Budget and Overpriced? I think not.
 

Dominions II is very definitely well worth $50, or more, if it's the sort of game you'd enjoy. It's unique and wonderful and has years of fresh gameplay for players who appreciate it. For volume and quality of gameplay, I can think of very few other games that offer as much as Dominions, and none that offer more (though that's of course subjective, and based on my own tastes).

This is from a gamer who's extensively played well over a thousand games, since the first ones, though that also means my tastes are rather rare, snobby, gameplay-oriented and glitz-apathetic.

They don't get much better than this, except when the next patches come out for the best games. If you think you can do better saving $15 and getting some other corporate drivel, either you're very wrong, or your tastes are simply a lot different than mine, which is fair and true in many cases. So, play the demo - if it seems really fun, unique, and well-done, then I'm confident that if you buy it, you'll probably still be hooked months or years later.

PvK