Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Arryn I would suggest that you look how much gold and porduction you lose by having unrest at 80+. I play with 1 unrest as acceptable and lower tax to get rid of anythign else.

Having played turmoil3/luck3 races I bit I think there is something very wrong with peoples tests - I don't find my home province gets devestated. I suspect that a large part of the problem is doing the test with only one province so all events occur in that province. I think luck is just to complicated for a one province test to be that useful. To repeat I have been playing turmoil/luck races and they do alright. Sure they have not been up to the old order/misfortune standards but they don't destroy themselves with bad luck as some peoples tests would seem to indicate.

Cheers

Keir

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Events are tied to the land in which they appear.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Hmm. Guess I haven't been hit by enough "Barbarian Hordes" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif How much do they pillage on average that you can see?

If it's a dramatic amount (say 1000+) I could see that as falling in line with a moderate population hit and if the pillaging could be changed (but maybe keep the unrest hit) unless they would be an acceptable solution.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This might explain why luck seems more fickle in Dom 2, as I tended to spend many more points on positve scales in Dom 1. Plus I always take Turmoil 3 when picking Luck 3.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Playing as Utgard, I've been running a gold surplus of 1500+/month, which I can only put to use by increasing province defenses. My 150+ provinces are all at 21, and quite a few are at 30-50. Gold just isn't that useful in this particular game (the one where I have provinces with high unrest in odd spots). I wouldn't dream of allowing such unrest playing, say, R'yleth, where I'm always desperate for gold. As for production losses, I haven't seen all that bad a hit there. I crank out Jotun Huskarls/Spearmen at a nice pace. Too bad you cannot buy gems, as this is my only limiting factor ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Still, I've only been playing the game for a week and a half, so I have quite a bit yet to learn!


Cheers! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. I don't get hit that bad, as once you have alot of provinces, mostly of lesser value, the effect of such events is typically less. With Luck/Turmoil it really pays to expand quickly, and to have a strong dominion.

The biggest hit I see with Turmoil/Luck is the HUGE (gigantic! enormous!) base income loss, for which luck doesn't even come close to offering something of comeasurate value in return.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why not buy more forts and labs, so you can spend the extra gold on mages? This is what is typically done in multiplayer.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Hrm. I've tried always taking Turmoil 3 with Luck 3, but I just found I can't cope with the loss of income (I feel like the kid riding the short bus). That may just be my bias though. I've gone to taking the minimum of required Turmoil then it's not nearly so destructive to your economy (as most are Turmoil 1, though Barbarian Kings is Turmoil 2 and believe me, it's ugly).

I believe your suggestion of having Pangaea immune to the Turmoil scale is a fantastic one and they should implement it. Heres to hoping.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you deal with the unrest caused by this? I tried it once (as Jotunheim) and I had massive problems with crippled income due to having to reduce taxes so much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Some events (ill omen and rain of toads) increase misfortune. This might increase the chance of future bad events.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Whether an event is good/bad seems to be determined by the Luck of the province having the event -- but who's Order and Luck determines the frequency of a nation's events in the first place? Is it the Preteder's scales? The capitols? Some sort of weighted average of provinces you control?

Just how important is it with Turmoil/Luck to push your dominion so that your provinces actually have Luck 3 in practice? Are perceptions about luck colored by the number of events during expansion being based on potential Turmoil/Luck, while newly conquered provinces still have low Luck?

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why not buy more forts and labs, so you can spend the extra gold on mages? This is what is typically done in multiplayer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I already have over a dozen mages. More just aren't worth the bother as they don't survive combat, I have a 3:1 margin of research on the #2 AI, and I'm limited by my gem income. I've been spending some on temples, but I get the gold faster than I can move my priests to build more temples where they'll do some good. Such is the "price" of expanding rapidly via conquest. hehe
Guess I may have to just start building temples everywhere.

By the way, many of the strategies people are fond of for multiplayer aren't significant for those of us playing solo ...

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Zen,

The population loss tends to vary with the size of the attacking barbarian horde. But I have definitely lost over 1000 at times. That's a permanent loss and it hurts.

Barbarians appear to get a "bonus" to pillaging. Oh joy. And I think you can get the amounts on Sunraybe's site.

Unfortunately, I don't have exact numbers to offer you here. That is because the game doesn't let you go back and see what the population was the previous turn and doesn't tell you how much was killed in the pillage. So I only know when my home province or another major castle province gets hit, if that makes sense.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Yes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

I understand I don't like bad events any more than the rest, I just don't see the early (Under Turn 10) mass population killers being central to the 'Luck/Misfortune' balance.

If it's turn 11 and a Horde hits me I'm not crippled beyond repair, but if I'm hit by a Flood, Storm or Earthquake on turn 2, 3, or 4. My initial progress is suddenly put in a very real lurch. That's where my main problem with bad events are.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mostly I've done it when playing Pangaea, where in theory you get extra benefit and it's thematic. This worked ok in Dom 1 where you could massively patrol with harpies to deal with it, but is simply suicide now.

IMHO taking anything less than Order 3 is a handicap. Taking Luck with such a high Order is obviously self defeating, thereby greatly reducing the value of Luck, and making Misfortune more attractive.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you deal with the unrest caused by this? I tried it once (as Jotunheim) and I had massive problems with crippled income due to having to reduce taxes so much. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In dom 2 Turmoil doesn't cause unrest, it just lowers income -- dramatically. In dom 1 the unrest wasn't a big deal for Pangaea, as you could alleviate it by patrolling with Harpies. In dom 2 you really can't deal with the income loss.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Home province Luck determines number of events and good/bad effect IIRC. Scales of the province restricts event effects.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Zen,

I agree with you here. Of course, if you are hit by a huge horde or trolls in your home province early on (as happened to one AI in a SP game I played), you might never get started. I have never had bogus and crew attack my home province. That would be a nightmare.

I would love to be able to compare statistically the effects of luck events vs. death scale over an entire empire. Because I think that even with good luck the predominance of the bad events will cost you population.

I sometimes toy with the idea of limiting major disasters (flood, earthquake) to once a year in the entire world. And checking independent provinces to see whether it happens there also.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, so the prevalance and +/- of events is pretty stable then.

Looks like a good way to screw with someone is to cast misfortune events on their capitol, or rather on their entire empire! Ouch! As if taking Turmoil wasn't painfull enough already...

Hmmm, are there any spells that cause Turmoil?

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting idea! You could generate a random sequence of events, and then distribute them based upon everyone's Luck and Turmoil scales...

Not really an option for dominions, but perhaps some other game...

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

So what happens if someone casts baleful star on your capital?

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

It sounds like you cry (especially if you have Turmoil), and hope that your Dominion reasserts quickly. And hope that your opponent doesn't keep casting it...

These spells have gone from nuisance in my book to potentially devestating.

[ January 14, 2004, 00:30: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only a dozen? Then you really don't have any magical power to speak of.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Mages easily survive combat if you position them properly. If you are limited by your gemincome then you haven't searched your provinces throughly enough, or are playing on a small map with a very low probability of magic sites.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a nonsensical statement. Any strategy that works against a thinking opponent will work just as well against an AI>

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only a dozen? Then you really don't have any magical power to speak of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're assuming I need more. I can hire mages, or I can hire Jarls. The Jarls have been more useful in expanding. Try not to assume that the way you like to play is the way someone else does.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">More assumptions. See above comments. As for positioning, there are spells that will reach out and hit you anywhere. Ditto for flying enemies.

I personally find it more effective, in my games, to devote resources to reaching out and hitting the enemy than in defending myself.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It makes sense if you think about it, rather than rush to judge someone else's play style. The AIs aren't as challenging as a human, so you need not worry as much about them, nor how they will react to you. You will never need to worry about an AI using an 'innovative' strategy. You can take your time developing your nation as you see fit because you know that there isn't a human on the other side itching to take you down as fast as he can as a matter of his own pride. Et cetera.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I'm simply stating the fact that 12 mages does not a significant force make. I'd like to have 12 mages just researching by turn 14-15 in most cases, and even then, that's only going to get you somewhere in the neighbourhood of 60 research points.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If your enemy is casting spells that will affect the whole battlefield, and you are not supplying any magical firepower of your own, then I wish you luck in keeping your losses to a reasonable level. The only spells that can target mages specifically, and thereby are not affected by positioning as I already said, are magic duel and battlefield effects. Anything else can be avoided by being careful. If your enemy has fliers the mages them with a few heavy troops.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What on Earth are you talking about? Putting mages on the battlefield has nothing to do with being on the defensive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It makes sense if you think about it, rather than rush to judge someone else's play style.[/quote]

No, it really doesn't. You just claimed that a strategy that is effective in multiplayer is not necessarily going to be effective in single player.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which, of course, is you agreeing with me, and not at all what you originally stated.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

If anyone else is still interested in this topic, just pretend that Jaspar's is the most recent topic-related post.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Back (more) on-topic :
I really have a problem with the "mix" between O/T and L/M : as it stands now you have to take Order to limit Misf effect, or to take Turmoil to amplify Luck. But Order is a rock hard good investment, whereas Luck is a gamble... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

In the end you have a 0 net Design cost in both case, but with O+M have +20% income, +6% res and *very few* bad events, in the other you have -20%, -6%, and may have unpredictable good events...(BTW getting 100's of Militias is just a waste of upkeep gold, not really a good news http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !)

Who will be foolish enough to go for the second option ? Maybe for fun in SP, but no way in MP.
THAT'S the issue IMHO..

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

>I really have a problem with the "mix" between O/T and L/M : as it stands now you have to take Order to limit Misf effect, or to take Turmoil to amplify Luck.


I'm working on a mod that will take care of this (for those that want to use it).

It should be done shortly, however I still need to know if there are mod commands that affect magic scale. They are missing from the docs, and I'd like to know if they are part of the available tools. It's hard to do balancing when one scale can't be modified.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why can't you go for Order 0/Luck+3? You spend 120 nation points. But you get a moderate income, get insured from the major unluck events and have access to the occasional major luck events. The major boost from Cross-Breeding, Void-Gate and Transformation are not bad for some nations neither. Or you can go for Luck +1 or +2 using a lesser amount of points. Points are important but how else are you going to use it? Boosting up a combat pretender who might die frequently. It's always a balance of the overall design.

To me, Order+3/Luck-3 is usable but it is risky. You can get hit by something *very* nasty, even though the chance is smaller. And for some nations, you will definitely miss the heroes. Chao-3/Luck+3 is indeed stupid because of the disabling income. But it just show that negative scale is bad and you can't get something for nothing. It'll be more to my tastle if the effect of Order scale on random events decrease from +/-5% to +/-4%. But as what stands now, I don't think that it's such a no-brainer for Order+3/Luck-3.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Apoger,

For your mod I would suggest reducing Order to +/- 5% gold to balance it against all the other scales.

Giving Luck a +/- 2% gold effect would be a quick fix for that scale.


Kristoffer O, could you list all the population destroying events and the scales they require?

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

I wonder what folks would think about these effects:

Order: 6% income, -13% events per tick
Turmoil: -6% income, +13% events per tick

Luck: 1% income, +13% chance that event will be good per tick
Misfortune: -1% income, +13% chance that events will be bad per tick.

Order 3, Misfortune 3 would eliminate almost all random eents but only yeild 15% gold, and you wouldn't get the heroes.

Turmoil 3, Luck 3 would only be a 15% monetary loss, but you would have lots of luck, and 89% or almost all of them would be good.

Under Catquiet's scales, order3, misfortune 3 nets only 9% additional gold. And I assume you would still have 80% of events bad, normal numbers of events, and you don't get the heroes? That doesn't sound all that viable to me.

I still want them to let us mod the events. Because I want to make some really good events, like getting 20 units you would love to have in the late game rather than militia or flagellants. Some of the lucky events don't strike me as all that great right now, and I would like to fix that and go back to the pre-patch luck-order scales. But that's just me.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is it as viable as +3 Order , +3 Death ?

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Adding income to Luck scale cannot be done with the current mod tools. Only % changes to affects that already exist.

I have been testing my new scales pretty heavily and I like what I see so far. Once I have a bit more testing done I'll release it.

Also I'm still waiting on any indication of whether there is -any- cabability to alter the affects of magic/drain scale.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Oooh, my modified scales got put up here: http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/mods.html

Make sure to tell me if you think the banner is cute! That's really the most important part, since it took 99% of the time.

-Cherry

P.S. I think it makes all the scales useful, and reduces catastrophic event frequency. Certainly Growth was made more useful; it was nearly worthless before. The scales cannot be adjusted perfectly (or even very well) until a couple more factors are added, like cost nOnlinearity, magic scale adjustment, and some additional effects, like scaling of major good and major bad events wth luck scales. A 3-tier event system would be nice: minor, moderate, major... and even a "maximal event severity" setting in game-setup, like in Space Empires IV. And for the magic scale... having it affect site gem output, and giving mages occasional extra randoms, would be nice. These Last two are not currently doable and would require major reprogramming=)

[ January 14, 2004, 18:22: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a negative.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

The banner's great Cherry, but what, exactly, are the changes to the scales?

~Aldin

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Ah... to be specific:

Changes:

Major event frequency changed from 15% of events to 12%.

Order affects event frequency at 2% per scale, not 5%. I felt decoupling order and luck was very important.

Luck/Misfortune increases events by 7% per scale, not 5%. This is to make up for reducing the event frequency with a high turmoil.

Luck/Misfortune affect event polarity (good/bad) by 13% per scale, not 10%. Now the percentage of positive events is like this:

Luck : probability an event is good
3 : 89
2 : 76
1 : 63
0 : 50
-1 : 37
-2 : 24
-3 : 11

Growth/death changed from 0.2% population change per scale to 0.3%. Before there was no reason to ever choose Growth 3.

Capitol population by turn 30 (2.5 years):

Original, 3 growth: 35900
Rebalanced, 3 growth: 39200
Original, 3 death: 25000
Rebalanced, 3 death: 22900

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Looks great, I imagine I'll switch to the mod for my SP games. Having the mod won't screw up my MP games, will it?

~Aldin

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Catquiet,

I haven't tested it, but with current luck events, it seems less viable than 3 death. At least you get the heroes with death. And death doesn't cause you to lose provinces, only to lose population in a predictable manner.

I think the long-term problem of death dominion is why order has a 7% bonus to income now. I just about think they were balancing order relative to the death scale.

I don't ever take death with the nations I like to play. Because large armies are hard to move around in a death dominion. And Catquiet, I don't think the devs intended for most nations to take death 3. Though I could be wrong. I think select nations like Abyssia and the undead nations with dominion that will kill the population anyway were meant to take death. Death dominion is actually beneficial if you don't have living armies. For certain nations, death 3 is very viable. Ermor. Abyssia. Carrion Woods Pangea if they weren't required to take growth.

My real point is that 9% increase in income does not balance on the order side of the equation what your scales take on the misfortune side. I think most folks would agree with me. We could do a poll if you you'd like. I actually think just the economic effects of that much unluck in terms of tax loss, destruction of equipment, and the like will more than equal the 9% net income in your example. And that's not counting the heroes, population loss, getting Bogus the Troll, gem theft, etc.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Saber Cherry,

I think your banner is extremely cute. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I like the coupling of order to event frequency, though. For me, random things good or bad just seem inherently chaotic.

I notice you reduced the base event frequency. That gives everyone a bit of intrinsic order effect even if they don't take order scales.

Do you think there are "too many" random events on the default game settings of "common" random events? I know you can always just change that to "rare," but common events appears to be the default in MP.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My point was that +3 Scales are not supposed to balance with -3 Scales. +3 Order, +3 Drain would be terrible for most nations. The same with Sloth, Turmoil, or Heat/Cold. Some nations are resistant to one or more negative scales, but that is built into their balance.

You shouldn't try to balance +3 Order with -3 Luck. It's like saying Sight is as important as Hearing, therefore making your vision 75% better is worth reducing your Hearing by 75%.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Um, growth 3 has no geometric benefit over growth 2? What's the advantage to growth2 that doesn't scale?

Thanks,

Rabe

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I changed the proportion of events that are "major". The total number of events is the same. The reason I did it is because major events are too frequent, and the bad major events are much more potent than the good major events. I would change it back to 15% if I could mod the events themselves, or (ideally) adjust the proportion of major good and major bad events for each scale setting.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suggest using the mod only for single player games unless it is agreed ahead of time to use it for all players. I do not know if mod information is set when a game is created or not... so... personally, I am using that mod for single player, but I disable all mods before taking my multiplayer turns. However, I'll have to wait for a dev comment... it'd be nice if games were encoded with the mods used at creation.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Growth gives a bonus to supply and gold income as well. Sometimes I take growth 1 to get a 4th gold income multiplier (admin*growth*order*productivity), usually it is for increased supply if I take a negative heat/cold scale, but really... the points would be better spent elsewhere. Growth 3 sounds like it would make things grow like crazy, but in the vanilla game your nation can be eliminated before you even notice any effect. Now it is slightly better. The problem with growth 3 is that while neither growth 3 or growth 1 really help you, growth 3 costs 80 points more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

-Cherry

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are, start a game with Trollheim, then turn the mod off. Start the game back up, turn the mod off, load the game again, and Trollheim will be re-enabled.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

Just ot repeat some things I said earlier as they seem out of keeping with much of the opinion being expressed and I'd like to know why.

1.Turmoil3/luck3 is not suicidial

As I understand it nothing has changed about this option with the patch and in my experiance it works for some races - just not as well as order/misfortune used to. I have played many test games with this combo using races like Tuatha, BK and S&A and have only once seen my capital hit big time. Thats playing events commen.

2. Order3/turmoil3 may well prove suicidal.

As I understand it this combo is like it was in dom1 and in dom1 it was a killer and Alex warned us all away from anything like it. I would like to hear back from games people have played with this combo, what the events frequency was, and how bad it proved. I find it hard to imagine taking this set of scales in MP yet most seem to assume its still the norm and some have expressed the idea you would be silly not to which I really doubt to be the case. It may be this is a entirely viable option but it needs to be tested.

I would like to hear alot more on this one as I'm working on the War of the Ring mod and have no time for testing.

3. Order3/luck0 would seem the new norm.

If point 2 above is true then this is what alot of people are going to go for. It costs 120 design points more then turmoil/luck and will be stronger even though its not as strong as it was and wasn't chosen often previously.

While Turmoil/luck has not improved order has got worse which makes turmoil/luck stronger.

I'm a little suprised that alot of people seem to have written off the value of the changes to order/luck scales and are working on their own yet I have still seen no sign of a thorough test of the new scales. If the patch has been ineffective I'd like to see this demonstrated not just claimed. Feedback from games played under the new system is the key.

I am not sure the value in moddding the main game features to fix luck unless you are sure it doesn't work and people seem to be guessing on this. They may be right but that will take serious testing to demonstrate not one province runs. Are you playing events commen or rare? If rare then try commen for some better balence. Playing events rare and then insisting the luck scale is weak and something needs to be changed seems odd to me when you have the option of increasing the events frequency. Sure it takes a bit of getting used to putting up with the setbacks you will get but then I'm sure ancient rulers were pissed when they discovered some of their lords had revolted - thats what you get with all that turmoil. On the other hand if you try Luck you will find you do get some real big bonus's and Turmoil/luck costs no design points.

Illwinter you could do yourselves a real favour on this one by removing things like gaining militia from the good list as many, many, players have pointed out this is generally a very minor bad event and very seldom useful. That events like this are still in the game is, I think, one of the issues heightening people irritation as its been complained about for a long time, without a counter argument I've heard of, yet it remains. Militia "good" events ranks up there with Abysian fire mages precision in a list of the mean things Illwinter inflicts upon us. I have read many times how annoying people find such features and never read a defence of them yet they remain. Features like this bias people against you.

Cheers

Keir

ps. Saber don't take this as aimed at you as I realise what you are trying to do is make a major change in how the scales work not just fix luck. As such your mod represents an alternate way of playing not just an attempt to provide a new norm.

[ January 14, 2004, 21:15: Message edited by: Keir Maxwell ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

I kinda agree with Keir here, its a bit early yet to write off the Illwinter change as ineffective in fixing the percieved (though I percieve it) imbalance in order/misfortune.

I don't think the proper solution can be had by just tweeking the existing numbers anyway, I think that the effect of luck on the actual events should be changed. Such that there is no longer a bias toward good or bad events, but with luck good events are better and bad events are not as bad. With misfortune the opposite. Others have suggested this before as well. Assigning a straight % or having a set of 7 levels for each event depending on your luck level. The latter makes luck a bit less quantifiable, which I think it should be anyway http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

edit- Spelled Kier wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ January 14, 2004, 21:25: Message edited by: licker ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

I am just very happy that they gave us the mod tools we already have. Everyone can make the scales the way they like the scales in SP. Whatever feels right to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

So no one loses any of his toys. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And the old order/misfortune combination can still be used in SP just by making events rare. Except that that feels like cheating just a bit.

I'm going to try order/misfortune in a SP game with events set to "common." But I'm not looking forward to all of those bad events. I suspect it will be worse than a death scale of 3. Because we're talking no overall reduction in events (which was formerly at least half the benefit of taking order) and 80% of the events will be bad.

I'm starting to think that Order0 Luck3 might be interesting to play. Because it will increase events some though not too much.

If anyone uses the Cherry Mod and takes misfortune-3, I would love to hear their tales of woe. Because with events increased by 21% (assuming order zero) and 89% of them bad, I think you will be in dire straits.

What I love about the ability to mod is that we will be able to gain experience with the game and then change the scales to our own points of indifference. This would be especially true if we were allowed to give them non-linear effects. How much turmoil will you accept for 120 design points? Unfortunately, changing the scales will have unintended consequences for how some of the nations with forced turmoil play if the scales were lessened to one's point of indifference. I guess I will just use default scales when I play around with tien'chi.

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem=) I just don't like 2 scales being strongly aliased, so that moving one makes some settings of the other unviable... A minor influence is OK, though. I want fortune+order and misfortune+turmoil to be serious possibilties. With my changes, the first one is now useful, but the second one is only a little more viable than before...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The main problem with unluck is the major events (population loss), and those have been reduced, so overall it should prove safer than before...

...and I did not feel safe taking Luck 3 with the default 2.06 scale effects, because with luck 3 you get more events than luck 0... and thus, probably more bad events, but I can't say for sure because I don't know how event probabilities are calculated. "+21%" event frequency does NOT give you 21% more events - more like 100% more, I think.

[ January 14, 2004, 22:05: Message edited by: Saber Cherry ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Bowing to popular demands runs against the long and proud tradition of swedish paternalism. Being a swede carries with it certain responsibilities, one of them is telling people what they should think, and you Kier, you should think that militias are a good event. Also Kristoffer is a teacher, so the burden of paternalism rests even heavier on his shoulders.

[ January 14, 2004, 22:12: Message edited by: johan osterman ]

Re: Luck/Order scales after 2.06 Patch
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO:
1. Is a clear handicap, because of the lost income.

2. Looks Dangerous to me too, although perhaps for nations with Misfortune averting mages.

3. Order 3 + Misfortune 1 has been working pretty well for me so far. This feels like the new min/max strategy to me.

I look forward to seeing Alex's scale mod.