Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, since I cannot help you get the "new and somewhat improved" dommap to run on your machine, I ran it with your switches for 3 1600x1200 maps; the results are here .

If you want more, you can email me at (duchon) dot (philippe) at (free) dot (fr)

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Targa,
The ones I run come from a basic program that runs ALL the parameters as randoms. If there are one or two on my list that seem "perfect" I can quote the variables that were used.

Do you want a nightly run to put a dozen or so into your directory on my machine?

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Phil: Awesome! I saved map #3, which I really like the looks of. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Your mod of DomMap must have changed something other than map size and .map files, because when I use the same seed with DomMap 1 it gives me a totally different picture.

Gandalf: As I mention above, the 2 progs generate diff maps even w/same seed, so giving me the variables wouldn't allow me to generate anything similar-looking. If you could do a nightly run, I can download any I like, which would be awesome. Could you set it up so it uses the same file names every day, overwriting yesterdays files? That way I won't have to delete any, and your hard drive won't fill up.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Targa,
Would you rather have the multi-colored ones like PhilD did? The advantage would be that the .map would have different terrains matching what the tga did. Or is it easier to all one color (which color?)

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Easier to have it all one color, brown is fine. I'll have to edit the terrain data anyway, otherwise I'd be limited in where I could place mountains, forests, etc.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Just to tease you all.. (or maybe Kris will see it)
http://terraform.sourceforge.net/tf_screens.html
Unfortunately I dont run GUI stuff on my linux

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, since dom2 reads the map bottom to top while dom1 does the reverse (for province numbers), one thing I did was reverse the output map.

Now, if the output of both dommap Versions don't look like mirror images of each other, then it's probably an effect of different random generators. I didn't change much in the map generator itself, only the .map output (and the maximum terrain size, but that was nothing)

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Here's the latest update on the map-making project for those of you who are following this (yes, that includes you lurkers...I know you're out there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). I know it doesn't look like I've gotten very far, but it's painstaking work, and I'm a perfectionist (1600x1200 map and I push pixels...heh). Currently about 56 layers:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

I've added "Giant Forest" with a stonehenge-type thingy in the upper-left. Not sure if I'm going to keep the winter forest up there or not. More mountains, province borders, shading, some green hills in the middle, "Crescent Woods" on the mid-right, a bunch of shading, etc.

Phil: Nope, they were totally different, so I guess something's changed in the generator.

Gandalf: Sweet! Did you check out the gallery? There's some potential in that prog.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One thing I liked is that you could make a map like we are using, save it, and then let it do its fancy realistic 3D view to it for making a fancy web-post. But unless I want to put up another linux box I wont be able to use it.

[ February 02, 2004, 23:40: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Just want to publicly encourage Targa on his map efforts. I'd really like to get my hands on a layered PSD with your icons. . . I've made a few maps but have given up because I can't get them looking right. Your file would be a big help.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

I located some images for variations in trees. Making a "Stamp" or "brush" out of these should help some people.
http://tubes.ominix.com/art/foliage/index.html
The same site did have some nice waterfall stuff for a unique site.
Still looking for somewhere with lots of images of small well-drawn mountains or river.

[ February 03, 2004, 15:00: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice site! I like this image for a new pretender:
http://tubes.ominix.com/art/characte...keleton-01.png

I saved at least a dozen of those tree and plant pictures. I'll be adding some to my "mapstuff" file for sure. Thanks for finding that! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Mokurai: I'm working on making a complete "mapstuff" file (though no doubt it will continue to grow ever larger). I'm also working on a mapmaking tutorial for photoshop. In the mean time, I'm sending you the mapstuff I already have that's ready for public consumption. And I very much appreciate the encouragement! As GP is fond of saying, "People don't know how to pay for free stuff anymore." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Excellent example of how that's done.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

I'll be busy for a few days here but have not lost my interest in map making!

I'll also reiterate my support and request for Targa's great looking map!

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Hi,

I just wanted to add my support for Targa's and Gandalf's efforts. I'm really blown away by what Terraform can do. Is there any way to create a map file from the end result without doing it by hand? Those are lovely graphics that would really look sharp while playing.

Ciao,
V'ger gone

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is there anything we can rip out to a template file so we can use them to cut-n-paste on home made maps?

The terminology in this game is confusing. What did you want to do to a terragen map? Add provinces and capitals? Create the .map file with the correct terrain and neighbor commands? I kindof wish the .map files had an extension of .mmp or something we would know what we mean when we say map

[ February 03, 2004, 22:38: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

I was able to put in a bit more work on the map today, and updated the webmap:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

Bottom half looks like it's getting there, although I keep finding myself making changes and tweaks. Re-painted all the mountains today due to the fact that I saw a picture of something Kristoffer drew and it made mine look like crap. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Added, erased, etc... (not gonna get into a long description this time. I'll let the pic speak for itself). Not really happy with the results I'm getting, but at least it will be playable. To top it off, my pen tablet is being fickle the Last couple of days.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Much appreciated. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

I played with using one of Gandalf's GIMP-script maps in 3D max. I used it as a displacement map to "bump up" a plane for some topography. It worked fairly well, especially after I put some height-controlled textures on it to make the lowest parts water and snow-cap the highest, but the way I converted it to what I needed left too many artifacts.

Gandalf, can you generate one that uses just grayscale to represent height data? I was curious what might come out of it if I took something like that and made a real effort with it in Max instead of just goofing around for 10 minutes.

Having a nice 3D fly-over would be a great way to show off a map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[ February 04, 2004, 02:55: Message edited by: Psitticine ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not sure I follow. You mean doing a GIMP render with just a gray palette? I could try that.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Pretty much. I'd have to play with it and see if any other special settings would be useful. The more of a spread in the colors, the better. Pure white and pure black and all shades in between. That gives a much more gradiated landscape.

I did something like this once for a project and it came out rather well. What I need to do here is alter things so that the texture is mapped in more than one (blended) layer. That shouldn't be any kind of big deal though, even if I just end up nesting textures.

Once I get it right, though, it won't take any more than popping a new map in place to "raise" a new 3D image.

I'm not sure it'll be of fantastic value to anyone, but it'll be fun to play with and I'll be happy to share the results. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Just thinking out loud here . . . I may eventually experiment with something that'd spawn trees as part of a particle system at designated areas on the map. That might require a seperate map being painted but that, again, shouldn't take much. Just slap a new layer on over the altitude map and paint in pure white where you want forest. Replace the underlayer with black then set up the script to spawn according to that. Hmm . . .

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Quick update to the map:
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/webmap.jpg

Currently at 88 layers. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif I've already had several Messages to the effect, "Not enough system resources, close any open programs and retry" when attempting to multitask with Photoshop having the map loaded.

I'm hoping to have it finished in about a week, but don't hold me to that. I think the next one will be a nice small 2-4 player map. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Seeing some interesting things there. That line of cliffs in the upper right will be uncrossable? Nice.

You might have to do a few merges in order to free up some ram. I thought my machine was more than enough for anything until I started playing with GIMP

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Targa, if it's going to be a wraparound map, you will need to change some of the map to make it look normal as a wraparaound.

Also, if it's not going to be wraparound, you can't have that big lake just cut off like that, although it doesn't really matter. just making suggestions for improvement.

Edit: or is it an ocean?

[ February 04, 2004, 23:50: Message edited by: Argitoth ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This map is gorgeous! I can hardly wait to see the end result ...

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I spoke with Kristoffer about the possibility of making some cliffs/rifts/and plateau's and he helped me out a bit. Hopefully there'll be more in the next map. You're right about merging layers, which I dislike doing because it limits the tweaking...that said, I should merge a bunch that I think are done, then save the file under a different name so I have the original just in case. Thanks.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's an ocean/sea. As for wrap/non-wrap, the graphics near the edges are on separate layers, so they're easily hidden/removed in order to modify it to be a wraparound. First Version will be non-wrap though. The wrap Version will only wrap horizontally, so the water at the bottom won't matter.

Arryn: Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I'm not fishing for compliments, but as everyone knows, positive feedback is the fuel that keeps the fire burning for those who are working on mods, maps, guides, etc... I imagine that if no one showed any interest, this project would die off rather quickly.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, all of the mountain ranges will be uncrossable (the very long vertical one in the middle has a gap in the center). This is to create choke points and limit access. Do you think this would be a mistake?

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A bit of appreciation can't hurt, and can go a long ways towards making tedious tasks more bearable.

I prefer large, wrap-around maps like Orania. But a large non-wrap map would be just fine provided it is suitably interesting. No offense intended towards Tiltowait, but I prefer maps of the style that IW (and now you too) make. However pretty, or unusual, those 3rd-party maps on the IW site may be, they strike me as too amateurish (excepting the world map, of course), not to mention hard on the eyes. BTW, horizontal wrap is fine. We can assume there are 'poles', if we need a justification.

One comment that I have is that it seems you are creating large-sized provinces, as compared to a map like Orania. Do you have a ballpark estimate for the total number of land and sea provinces this map will have?

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Also, what's everyone's opinion about the spread and combination of mountain/forest/fertile plains/wasteland? Am I not putting in enough "money spots"? I keep finding myself not being happy with the "barren" provinces, and wanting to stick something in them. I'm concerned about the distribution of fertile lands....too much, not enough, wrong places? I can't tell you how many times I've loaded Aran.tga for a comparison. Believe it or not, I have even measured how many pixels wide and high each province is in comparison to those on Aran.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

It appears that you have more barren coastal area than a map like Orania. Most of Orania's coastal provinces have some sort of green (farmland, woods, river mouth). Also, the map appears to lack any frozen land.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

I am in favor of chokepoints. I'd say the distribution should be 1 Fertile Province for every 5 provinces or so.

Also since this is a large map and more than likely going to be used for 17 Nations. You can divide everything by 17 to find a balance of barren, forest, mountain, river, and farmland provinces. I did notice the prevelence of barren land, but maybe it's just because there is not alot of green. Perhaps you could make or IW has a 'waving wheat field' icon you could put in a few provinces.

And yes, it looks terrific. Maybe you could even place a tower icon on the edge of a chokepoint so it's more visual.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, to be honest I haven't really looked at Orania until just now. That map is quite a bit larger (2400x1800) while mine is 1600x1200. The smallest province on there is 68x86, and the largest is 324x172. Mine has (so far) 64x71 and 206x102. As you can see, I'm pretty close on the small, and smaller on the large. The larger map (Orania) makes the provinces appear smaller. As of now my map has about 100 outlined provinces, and roughly 1/3 of the map yet to do....so 130-140 would be a guess for land. Not sure about water. I've been told to keep the water province number fairly low (if you look at Orania and Aran, the water provinces are very large compared to the land provinces).

OTOH, I am keeping the "province borders" layer separate, so they are very flexible. Multiple Versions is not out of the question.

EDIT
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes and no. It looks more barren because of the way it's drawn, but yes, it still lacks enough fertile land. Aran only has about 14 fertile provinces, and quite a bit of empty ones. Orania seems to have a bunch more fertile around the edges, but many barren ones in the middle. I'll do the math as you suggest...that'll make it alot easier to determine if I have enough or not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a question you'll have to ask someone with more experience than I have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ February 05, 2004, 01:34: Message edited by: Targa ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point about Orania being a much larger map overall. Being a relative noob at Dom, how many players (average) do you estimate your map will accommodate?

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

See my post below for some answers, I edited it. Something else I wanted to mention though. One of the difficulties I've been having is placement of fertile lands. Using Orania as an example, the majority is by the water's edge and along the rivers, while inland is barren. While this looks realistic, it creates a problem for anyone unlucky enough to start the game somewhere in the middle, and those people starting by the water have a cash advantage right off the bat. So would you say that it's better to go with an "evenly distributed" look? Should I make all the fertile lands #nostart, as well as all the provinces bordering the edges of the map?

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is in part of the game, position plays alot of how the game is played by any particular nation. You have enough rivers that you can place a fertile province pretty much where you'd like. If you happen to get an area that seems lacking in both mountain, forest and riverland areas, make it a high chokepoint area so there is some benefit for it. (You could also place already visible sites in these provinces to try to make up for the discrepency)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You should place all the borders as #nostart, with the exception of the water provinces near the edge (this will allow water nations have some space to not get invaded instantly by a land province to their capital).

I would prefer the semi-realistic look while being balanced as far as if an area doesn't have fertile provinces they have something else that could make up for it.

[ February 05, 2004, 01:57: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

There is no real good "average number of players". It would be simpler to talk in provinces per player. Its a lesson I learned in trying to get feedback from players about what maps sizes they wanted.

If a map will support every nation gaining only 5 provinces before having no choice but to go to war, then you are looking at 75 land and 10 water provinces. See where this is going? Saying a map will support 6 players doesnt mean much unless you add whether this means you idea of support is 5, 10, 25 provinces each before forcing a war.

As to terrains, Im kindof bugged if the terrain is grouped so "logically" that that there are large rambling areas of forest, desert, swamp, mountain. OK visually that makes sense but it creates maps where one persons start is surrounded by desert provinces and another surrounded by farmland. I would rather see smaller scatterings so that everyone is next to a few different types of terrain.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

As to Zen's "waving wheat field" to make up for the barren look, does this look any better, or is it too "busy" now?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat.jpg

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would look better if the "wheat" icon placements conformed to the darker shadings within those provinces. Alternatively, if you shaded the area beneath the wheat in the same color/tone as the wheat and then smoothed/blended that into the rest of the province's barren tone. A lot more work, of course.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Like so?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat2.jpg

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Maybe you can bunch them together a little more and add a green background to take a look at it? Or at least some portions. I don't know whether or not it would work but it's at least a thought.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Better. But can you extend the area of shading beneath the wheat so that the "pockets" of them merge together?

With regards to Zen's suggestion, it might look better if you shrank the size of the wheat icons and, as Zen said, bunch more of them together. I think my biggest gripe is that the wheat icons are slightly largish.

[ February 05, 2004, 02:45: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Also Targa, if it's too much work don't worry about it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif It was just an idea to create the image of 'fertility'.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Just out of curiosity, does this "texturized" Version appeal to anyone? Or would you rather have the original "flat cloth" look?
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/wheat3.jpg

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ignore Zen. Work, darn you, work! (sound of cracking whip) Slacker! What's taking you so long? People working for free just isn't what it used to be ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like that. Looks good. Not bare dirt but subtle plant work. Keep in mind that the castle, temples, flags will all appear on top of these. What you are working on is beautiful but while the game is in play they are basically background.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I prefer the original.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Well, in closing for the night I'll just let you be the judge. Here's a comparison shot of a section of my map, and a section or Orania (barren areas):
http://www.techno-mage.com/~targa/compare.html

I don't think I'm going to get carried away trying to spruce it up. One of the difficulties I find myself facing is that I don't want to leave any provinces with nothing in them other than a slight bit of shading, but I have to keep telling myself that I can't fill every province with eye candy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yours is easier on the eyes, and prettier. G'night. Sweet dreams ...

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't mind some plain looking areas. Looks cleaner to me.

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Can we see the comparison as it would look in the game? With flag, castle, temple, army square, neighboring grey flags.

Its up to you. If you want it playable, or prettier on the download screen. As a proud artist maybe a prettier more artistic map is a better choice.

[ February 05, 2004, 14:12: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would require saving a copy to tga format, addidng capital white dots, creating a map file, then loading it up and taking a screenshot...so don't hold your breath. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

Or I could do a screen capture from a game and paste transparent on your image.

Latest Version of my Dom2 Daily Random Maps
http://www.techno-mage.com/~dominion...humbnails.html
This one can be done with MUCH less drain on the system. The dail files such as 04Feb19.tga and 04Feb19.map will be put into TodayMap19.zip which means I dont have to regenerate all the web pages each day. Just the views. I might later be able to get it back to the thumbnail view going to a full screen (jpg) view with a link going to the download zip.

[ February 05, 2004, 16:17: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Seeking map or need advice on making it
 

OK, I've had several cups of coffee now and can think semi-straight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif What, exactly, are you asking? If I interpret this correctly....I'd say the following:

If for whatever reason my map ends up looking shabby in-game (poor contrast, too bright/dark, artistic style mismatch, etc..) then there's not much I can do about it. I'll finish the map and let the players decide. I'm not going to scrap 100+ hours of work at this point and start over.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can't it be both?