Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

I haven't discussed it before now, but I never intended for the Wyrm to act as an SC beyond the mid-game, if even that far. I'm quite aware of the limitations of not having humanoid item slots for SCs in the latter half of the game.

Astral-5 (6 with a cap and 7 with a cap & coin) should be adequate defense in MP. To effectively threaten you they will have to invest considerably in boosting an astral mage of their own, which they may or may not be able to do, depending on what they are playing.

So far, the arguments I am seeing favoring taking air fail to address the question I asked in return: In the early game, does the gain from taking air offset the loss from not taking astral? I'm still waiting for an answer to this, specific, question ...

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This assumes:
-That you do not die nor get afflicted (quite of an assumption for someone that plans on hiding his whole army behind his Pretender).
-That you make it to const6 before a possible hostile Pythium/R'lyeh/Arco makes it to Evo3 (for your skullcap).
-That you forge a 2E-2O item when you have no mages with earth proficiency.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes. Both in the early, mid & end game. Talking from experience, I won my Last 2 MP games as Jotun.

In the early game it will protect you vs missiles & fliers, in the mid & end game vs lightning & air elementals. It gives you an additional magic field also. Astral however, gives you nothing that you already do not have.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A risk in any battle, regardless. If one dies, one is screwed. End of story. There is little point in dwelling overmuch on it. The Wyrm regens, and the chances of a Wyrm taking the feeblemind injury in melee are remote. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said this was my sole strategy, nor one I use injudiciously. Please don't twist my words. What I said was that I do this fairly often, against small-to-moderate sized enemy forces. Forces I feel reasonably safe in using it against, based on prior experience.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And you assume that those same possible hostiles also have an astral caster of L5+. Your assumption is no better than mine, I think. Is it common to find players of Pythium, R'lyeh, or Arco taking Astral-5+ pretenders? After all, don't many of the same arguments about diversifying paths apply to them as well? <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">For the coin. I never said I'd be sure to be able to do so, or to do it quickly, only that it's possible. Again, you are twisting my words. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Versus fliers how? If you mean Storm, that's Evoc-5, which is past the early game (by my reckoning), and would hurt me more than help, unless I give up the idea of flying myself. However, if I do, then Storm is certainly a wonderful defensive spell -- that any air-4 mage can cast. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've never been struck by lightning or air elementals. Just fire spells, and fire/water/earth elementals. Perhaps I've just been lucky so far and no opponents have been strong in air. The biggest advantage I see is the extra path early on. I'm just not so sure, still, that it's worth it. But I'll very likely try it in another game. I play lots of SP games, and have 6 ones active at the moment, that I switch between to avoid boredom. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not true, but there's little point in rehashing it, if it's not clear enough by now.

BTW, thanks for the discussion. It's helpful.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, I like the AAR and all, but it's a tad difficult to comment on it much when you've admitted that, a long time ago, you hit turn 18, and by now, are probably on turn 180...and your AAR is lagging behind at turn 9. That kinda makes it ancient history, y'know? All in all, I'd say you're doing pretty well.

I'm not entirely sure why everyone is so concerned about Astral-5, and magic duel, though. The way I see it, anyone who's taken Astral-anything, and hasn't gone totally nuts with his astral level, is subject to being potted in a magic duel against nations like Arco or Pythium anyway: It's not all that hard to communion-boost Astral mages to a level where potting even an Astral 5 or 6 isn't an even shot for a Theurg or an Astrologer, and in most cases, a 50/50 shot at potting somebody's god and perhaps putting a major kink in his plans is worth it, especially if you throw 4 or 5 dueller at him in a row, which all but guarantees you WILL get him. Am I missing something? What's so special about Astral 5? Don't you need to be 6 levels above to survive a magic duelling spree?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I stopped at turn 18, which was when I got the idea to write the AAR. I have not gone further because I wanted the feedback from the forum before I went ahead. So far, though, the comments have been all about what I did before turn 1 and nothing about what's been done afterwards. Perhaps I should have expected this, since so many people appear to focus strongly on optimizing the pretender design, and much less so on how the pretender is actually used afterwards. In military terms, more on strategy and less on tactics. BTW, real military officers are taught tactics first, then strategy. It's a bottom-up technique of building from the basics. As Bayushi Tasogare noted, strategy derived from tactics. In this case, pretender design based on combat usage.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thank you for pointing out what I'd been overlooking: communion. If this is so easy to do, and so dangerous, why would anyone ever take Astral? What's the counter (since Dom seems to have a counter-strategy to everything)?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

You already made up your mind to ignore counsel from more experienced players , so be it. I will make one Last attempt and leave you to make your own mistakes & learn from them.

You are using your Wyrm at the front of your armies, it's going to die & get hurt vs competent opponents whether you like it or not, I have killed my fair share of Wyrms to know it. And when it dies, it will lose magic levels and become more & more vulnerable to being magic dueled.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's in no way as adventurous as yours. Unlike Jotun, those nations can roll Astral 4& 5 mages. Unlike Jotun, those nations can forge the crystal coin. Those nations can afford to script a few mages to magic duel, knowing that only landing one removes your pretender & makes him more vulnerable to future duels.
You will not be duelled by pretenders, but by national mages.
Those nations are not restricted in their random picks as Jotun is, but you either do not know this or are sidesteping it. They do not need any particular magic on their pretenders as Jotun does. One random pick in fire/air...allows them to communion & cast the related wards.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uhu? you have no fliers without air magic, nor the magic to summon them. SoS is constr4, easily early game.
You do not fly your pretender in the middle of the enemy army & in short range of all enemy mages if you want it to survive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Peharps you need more experience. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif
Try sending your Wyrm vs a few orb lighning casting mages, or see how your army fares vs Wrathful skies.

edit-quoting was wrong

[ February 10, 2004, 18:53: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Question: do you wish to see less prose and more clear, concise (ie: dry) facts, or leave the AAR style as is?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Personally I enjoy the current style immensly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Wendigo,

You have made many valid and interesting points. It's too bad that you feel that you must bludgeon me with them in a most abrasive/abusive manner. It leaves me wondering just what it is that you want from me? Are you this way with anyone who even remotely questions your wisdom?

I also find it interesting that you cherry-pick quotations where the views differ and ignore any in which they agree. Strikes me as a recipe to just argue. In a normal discussion, it's perfectly fine for there to be agreement as well as dissent. Why do you focus on just the dissent? Let's look at a few examples:

<font size=1>#1. my statement</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here I've just acknowledged your points and say that I intend to check them out.

<font size=1>your response</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hardly warranted, I think. Purely argumentative, if not an outright flame.

<font size=1>#2. my statement</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><font size=1>your response</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which totally ignores my earlier comment that I would not do this against forces that have a significant chance of killing it. Be that as it may, on the one hand you are arguing in favor of an air path SC, then turning right around and basically saying that all SCs are bad because they run the risk of death. Can't have it both ways.

<font size=1>#3. my statement</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><font size=1>your response</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What part of my statement did you not understand? For in this you are clearly mistaken. I presume you are familiar with this spell, and the summoned creature?

In closing ...

<font size=1>your response</font>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I have never said I didn't. If I knew it all I wouldn't be on the forums asking questions from time to time.

So I ask again, what it is that you want from me?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

I have nothing vs you. I want nothing from you (except that you stop dragging me into this with questions as your Last one).

If my arguments have convinced you, fine. If not, fine also but do not move from the topic at hand as if debating opposing views on a board was some kind of personal vendetta.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

My feeling is that the discussion has reached a point where it should either stop or be pursued in another thread. I like the AAR part but the discussion seems to be getting negative.

But Arryn dont stop the AAR now please.

Me likes it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

I believe that what Pepe is trying to say is there are counters (which there are for every combination and variety of nations and themes) to this particular Wyrm strategy.

Which is of course true. If not, everyone would use Wyrms constantly and there would be no other choice.

The primary reasoning for this is it's lack of slots (body slot in particular for Elemental Hauberk), the vulnerability of Astral Magic in general (especially on Pretenders) and the heavy handedness that most newer people use their SC's.

On the other hand Pepe, Arryn is only defending what she feels and knows is right at the current, perhaps in a fashion that is argumentative, but that is just the way some people are. You should know from your Dom1 days that the learning curve from newbie to experienced is quite a turn, especially for those going from SP to MP. So maybe you could cut her a little slack, not everyone will take what people say for fact until it's been used against them.

Also, Arryn you need to not specifically bow down to the more experienced members (which Pepe is), but take their advice with a grain of salt and not try to find flaw in the argument, but the key questions as to what and why they arn't constants (which in this game they are not, no amount of planning and preperation will give you a consistant response to every game, there are just too many variables).

Just agree to disagree, try to leave any personal comments at the door (cough, cough).

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My thanks to you, Pillin, and the others that seem to be deriving some use from my effort. I have no intention of stopping the AAR, so you need not worry.

The discussion you tactfully refer to went negative many Posts ago, and I apologize for my part in it. 'Nuff said. I'll start keying in Turn #10 ...

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Zen, can you please explain to me why anyone would play a pretender with Astral if it's so easy to whack them with communion-boosted mages? I presume there's a counter to the communion-covens?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Because Astral is a powerful school of magic. It has access to quite a few of the best spells in the game. Also the nature of the game permits you to not always place your Pretender in immediate danger (I.E. combat) so when you are faced with a situation where you are facing Pythium/R'leyh/Arco and to a lesser extent, the Astral 2 Mage nations that are gunning for your Pretender he can be regulated to a different duty.

The power of the Wyrm has always been early initial expansion, Astral helps that particular cause quite a bit, lengthening his already initial investment by a factor of 5~10 turns. In that timeframe you need to make him count for what he is doing. After that point if you are in conflict with one of the aforementioned nations, you have to switch the use of your Pretender, more than likely summoning/forging/gatewaying. Choosing a different path (Say Air or Earth) you would not be limited by that particular aspect, but still limited as you would in any game because as the game progresses, SC Pretenders become less of a factor as other nations can manufacture their own SC's that can potentially kill your Pretender without losing as much in the process.

These are of course advanced multiplayer strategies that you are the most vulnerable to. If you are trying to learn about the viability of using SC's by easiest example (like your Pretender) and the spell paths/uses of spells (as someone mentioned earlier) this is a valuable learning experience. Which is exactly why you started this AAR, correct?

You didn't start it to run up and into MP situations as supreme grognard, but with the knowledge of how an aspect of the game is used. But as a tool of learning and showing people your own mistakes/insights/observations/innovations.

Take it in that light and I'm sure you'll feel much better. What some of the more experienced players may not remember, or care about, is that a whole deluge of newbies are out there. Trying to learn. This is a tool for those as well as the players themselves. While people can sit here and spout advise all day, it's not going to aid you in playing the game until you figure out the entire aspects for yourself and reasonings. It would be pure folly to try to do so and you would lose alot of the magic that this game so eloquently provides.

Edit: One of the best counters to Communion/Teleporting/Covens is Fires from Afar and to a lesser extent Seeking Arrows, etc. Foul Vapors, Wrathful Skies, Lammashatas, Fliers all do very well at killing mid-large numbers of commanders.

Edit: I also suggested Earth and Air previously Arryn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif But you have your own personal standards, didn't want Earth because you wern't familiar with it and Air, for whatever reason http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . Astral is just the next down the line of simplicity to use.

[ February 10, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Not everyone sends their pretender to the front, and there's usually more than just one front - if you know an astral active enemy approaches, just send your astral weak SC to another front.

Also, the communion strategy is *very* susceptible to assassinations. Communicants are slain by a simple unequipped assassin quite easily. Seeking Arrows kill them off with one shot, and lots of other bad things can happen to them. Two communicants dead before the battle usually mess up scripting very nicely.

Oh, and please continue in your style.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Once a number of game mechanics have been present in multiple games of yours you take that stuff for granted, and are surprised when what you consider common knowledge is dismissed as wrong, even fustrated when after detailed argumentation you fail to transmit what -to you- is obvious.

Sorry if I was too agressive. The 'Peharps you need more experience' sentence was indeed a low blow.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

You can never be too aggressive when trying to help. You just can't be offended because they won't pound it into their head that *you're* right, eh? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Spainards!

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen, thanks for all the insights, and for the encouragement.

I'd like to clarify one small thing though, hence the quote above. The conversation we had went something like "What are you familar with?" I said I was familiar with R'lyeh and Jotun, and the Ashikaga mod. Since I had just played a dual-bless Jotun pretender in MP blitz (and done badly), you opted to stay with Jotun and I agreed, so you selected the Wyrm, which was one of the two Jotun pretenders I've used before. I said I'd used Astral, Nature, Death, and Water magics with pretenders. I neglected to mention that I am also familiar with Air and Fire, but not on pretenders. You mentioned that Earth was good and all I said was that I was unfamiliar with it. I did not say I didn't want it. What I did say was that I was uninterested in *Blood*. Air was not mentioned at all. Considering we were doing this at roughly 3-4AM Central time, after many hours of being awake, I am hardly surprised we overlooked it. After mentioning Earth, you proposed Astral. And we proceeded from there. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

My purpose in relating this is so the readers will understand *what* led to the choices that were made, on my part, and *how* it was done. Zen has already given the reasons *why* he suggested what he did. So that's the what, how, and why of it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ February 10, 2004, 21:57: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

I may have! I am the perpetrator of the Astral Wyrm. I am the newb, cruxify me for my choices!

If I'd known that you were going to write an AAR that would stir this much contraversy I'd have made you pick Arco with a Natarajah. They are much easier to teach *everything* about without having any instant weaknesses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My fault. I didn't get the idea to AAR it until I'd done 17 or 18 turns. It wasn't exactly planned. Hell, if it had been, I'd've been more dutiful about making sure I didn't overlook things when issuing turn orders (like my scout). The fact that I have save games for each turn is a habit I got into a few weeks ago, after I ran into an issue that I was posting to IW as a bug and was not at the time keeping savegames so couldn't show them an example of it. I have 77 turns of a R'lyeh game, 57 of an Ashikaga game (LoF god), 39 turns of a dual-bless (N+W) Utgard game, and a few others as well. None of these do I have any intention of writing an AAR for. One AAR I think will be more than enough work for me.

I am very interested in what you have to say about Arco, Nats, and "everything". Anytime you'd care to create your own educational thread ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Since Jotun has no assassins, is there a way to hire indy assassins? (I've never seen any.)

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, the Nataraja doesn't come with good natural protection, and only has a single misc slot so you can have some trouble giving him all the stuff you might want.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

In case anyone's been having any sort of trouble following the flow of my turn postings, I've been trying to maintain a consistent format for each one. It is as follows:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Turn number and season (month).</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A one-line "poetic" summary of the turn's most significant event.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The reports of events in other nations.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The report of anything special that has happened to me. This may sometimes be moved further down to better fit the prose.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Descriptions of the battles that have taken place. This may take several paragraphs. I will generally not go into what happened in every replay turn, but instead give a condensed, or abridged Version of the action. I do take the time, though, to count each and every enemy unit type on the replay, which is tedious as you may imagine. I feel it's useful to know the exact mix of forces the AI has used and what it did to me and I to it.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I follow the battle report with a report of how my people in the Hall of Fame (HoF) are faring. "Trophies" is my word for "experience". It's the best I could think of to put XP into some sort of thematic form.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Next is an overview of the unrest in my realm. I may also include significant increases in province dominion in this paragraph.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Following this is a report on the commanders that were hired, and what school level my researches have achieved this turn.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A summary of the most important numerical stats for the realm, and the capital.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Followed by the gem treasury report, with the amount in the pool shown in parenthesis.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Next is a paragraph describing what/who I'm recruiting, and why.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Last thing in the turn is what orders I have given to whom.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is one Last thing that I may add to some turns, and that is my own assessment of any obvious mistakes I made that turn.</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
I hope this helps.

[ February 10, 2004, 22:59: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Well there are uses for magic arn't there? Not everyone gets to be left alone for 30 turns to make supergolems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

The reason that Arco is very nice to learn on is because of the wide variety of magics. The reason that the Natty is so good to learn SC's with is because he's very, very solid with a few picks of the right magic and has the slots to switch/adjust.

Combine a Natarajah with the versitility of Arco and you have a lethal combination for learning about SC's. Not to mention the standard armies of Arco can very much hold their own without much need for support from indeps. It is a much better breeding ground for learning alot of what the game has to offer as far as making tough combatants in combination with standard armies and magical choices.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are a few rare places you can hire assassins of varying quality: Some rare provinces have an Assassin's Guild site which lets you hire assassins. The Hidden Kingdom of Elludia would let you hire Elludian Stalkers, which are pretty mean baseline assassins. Alternatively, as Jotun, you could send those scouts out to hunt for some blood, and have a Skratti bake up some Black Hearts, which you could then equip on a Woodsman.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey. It's not _my_ fault that you guys got caught up in dealing with each other and left me all by myself to expand at a leisurely pace.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<center><font size=1>Turn #10, Winter of Year 1
Fast food, medieval style.</font></center>
Braving the snows, travellers from afar bring word that a Sidhe Lord of Man has been appointed as the false prophet of Yadnif Goo.

While the siege of Pythium enters the third month, my avatar goes for a pleasant stroll upriver in the farmlands of Eribon. The heathens of this land, independent yet mildly sympathetic to Pythium, oppose me with a force of one priest and his fanatical bodyguard, a pair of mounted commanders, eleven heavy cavalry, and a trio of heavy footmen. Jorgun begins the battle at the rear of the field, which allows enough time to prepare spells of Personal Luck and Body Ethereal before the enemy cavalry charge arrives. My avatar receives the charge, completely unscathed, and proceeds to eat the nearest horse and rider. The cavalry switch to sabers, but are still unable to hurt Jorgun, who strikes out and envenoms a second horse and rider, which die writhing only moments later. Appalled by this, and the ineffectualness of their attack, the morale of the cavalry breaks and they immediately attempt to flee, but not before Jorgun poisons another rider and his mount, who suffer the same agonizing death as their predecessors. The footmen move forward to engage my avatar, and two of them are snatched up and swallowed whole in the blink of an eye. This causes a general panic to set in and all the heathens rout. But the Last footmen is not quick enough and becomes another tasty morsel.

Jorgun adds another 4 kills and 9 trophies to his tally, solo battle gaining him valuable experience that further improves his fighting prowess. <font size=1 color=brown>He now has 2 stars and has moved to the top of the HoF.</font> The proceeds from the Eribonese farms (52g) increase my income by 15%.

The Seithkona Urd, and her bodyguard of 5 Jotun spearmen, arrive at Pythium and join in the siege.

The number of dissenters declines by one in the Black Alps, and by two in Gwyrth. The faithful also gain a foothold in the province of Helmshire (#59, just south of Eribon, and up the other river from Saeborea). Slowly increasing dissent in the beseiged province of Pythium lowers revenues there by 3 gold. That it is I that receives this income, and not the Pythium pretender, is all that matters. The unrest will be dealt with after my inevitable victory.

The Seithkona Sigyn joins the coven at Jotunheim, which achieve mastery of the second rank of 'Enchantment' magics and are expected to complete the third next month. I give instructions that study begin on the magics of arcane item Construction once the goal in Enchantment magics is reached. The newfound Enchantment lore enables my avatar to add the spell of Astral Weapons to its pre-battle preparations. This will enable it to ignore the non-natural armors of opponents when striking with its venomous fangs.

My realm has:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">__5 Provinces (+Pythium under seige)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">272 Treasury.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">395 Income. (+49)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">127 Upkeep. (+16)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">131 Resources in the capital. (unchanged)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Gem income is:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+3 Astral (30)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+1 Death (10)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+2 Nature (15)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
With the added income from my latest conquest, I feel that I can afford to invite a third Norna sister to join my coven, so I command that the appropriate gifts and celebration be prepared, and I also command that another Jotun Spearman be readied in case the siege of Pythium should continue longer than I anticipate. These preparations drain the treasury of 250 coins, and I continue to defer bolstering provincial defenses.

I give command of the Jotuns at Pythium over to Bove, and I charge my prophet Grymis with proselytizing to the inhabitants in the farmlands surrounding the citadel. <font size=1 color=brown>Pythium's dominion here is -2, and if I can knock it back to zero I will kill this pretender without ever having to fight him. It's worth the attempt, though it's unlikely as my base dominion is only 5 and may not be enough for this. Still, weakening the enemy dominion will make my pretender stronger should I be forced to use him in a castle assault, plus it helps shift the local scales to my benefit.</font> My avatar, still alone, heads north to the plains of Bel (#92), where an estimated score of independent heavy foot and heavy cavalry await. The newly-recruited human commander in the Black Alps is sent to Jotunheim to gather the Jotuns in the garrison there. <font size=1 color=brown>Actually, I never leave troops in garrison. I always assign them as bodyguards until some commander carries them away to battle.</font> Finally, I call on Seithkona Sigyn to Revive a Mound King, which expends 3 of the death gems in my vaults, and set Seithkona Edda to the task of the Reanimation of long dead Jotuns, for which another 5 death gems are disbursed.

<font size=1 color=brown>PS - All provinces with positive dominion, except my capital, have dropped to Cold-1. I do not know why this has happened in the midst of winter, with no related events reported, and Pythium's dominion not increasing.</font>

<font color=blue>I repeat a small, but careless mistake this turn:</font>
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><font color=blue>I leave the scout Bdvar in place for a seventh consecutive month in Saeborea.</font></font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><center><font size=1>to be continued ...</font></center>

[ February 11, 2004, 14:22: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, that cold fluctation thing is a bit of a nuisance. This is actually what fuels the push towards Cold-3: Because even if you take Cold 2 as preferred, odds are that the random fluctuation will likely kick it towards Cold 1 or so anyway, and you'll be penalized just as much as if you were at Cold 3 all the time, whereas being Cold-3 will likely cause it to drift upwards to Cold 2, which is preferred anyway.

I personally find the "N" key invaluable and tap it constantly before ending my turn, to see if I've missed anyone. "Defend" is rarely what you want to be doing anyway. This may prevent "neglected commander" in the future.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Arryn, I must add that I really like your AAR, especially the style. I don't think it's hard to follow and most of the relevant information is there. The only thing I lack is total number of held provinces in your turn summary.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks Pat. I've gone back and added the info you desire to turns 4-10. Is there anything else that anyone would like to see?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You've a point that bears consideration. I did think about it while I was playing with the scales on this game, but my choices for what to do with the added design points, at least in my mind, weren't better than leaving it at Cold-2. Of course, at the time, I was unaware of fluctuations, else I might have made a different decision. I could have taken Astral back up to 5 (the best choice in retrospect), or Magic to 3, or Misfortune down to 1, or Growth to 1, or raised Dominion from 5 to 7 (IIRC). <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I shall remember this, for turns 19+. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

BTW, folks, I overlooked the fact that when I captured the Black Alps, circa turns 4-7, that it contained the level-0 magic site White Man Hill, which gives each turn:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">50 supply</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+1 nature gem</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">increased growth</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
My apologies if anyone's been puzzling over the discrepancy in my gem income all this time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Personally I would take use the points from cold 3 to get growth 1, that way you make up for any loss in supplies and somewhat for the loss in income http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<center><font size=1>Turn #11, Late Winter of Year 1
A disability.</font></center>
This deep into winter, there are no travellers bringing word from afar of events in distant lands.

The siege of Pythium enters its fourth month. Meanwhile, my avatar seeks more horseflesh in the plains of Bel. My faith has gained a foothold here, but many heathens abound still. The independent defenders oppose my arrival with a much lighter than expected force of two mounted commanders, and a half-dozen each of heavy cavalry and heavy footmen. Jorgun begins the battle again at the rear of the field, which allows enough time to prepare spells of Personal Luck and Body Ethereal before the enemy cavalry charge arrives. My avatar receives the charge, while preparing to cast Astral Weapon, and takes four hits (for a total of -11HPs), with one of them finding a weak spot in Jorgun's scales and wounding him, which weakens him noticeably (-4 Str) though his remaining strength (22) is still better than that of most Jotuns. The cavalry, affected by my avatar's fearsome presence rout immediately after failing to kill him, never even drawing their swords. Jorgun eats one of the mounts and it's rider as the rest flee. The footmen and commanders move forward to engage the Wyrm, and one of the footmen is struck and poisoned. This, coupled with Jorgun's aura of fear is enough to rout the remaining force. As they turn to flee, my avatar has one of the footmen as an after-dinner snack.

Jorgun adds another 2 kills and 7 trophies to his tally. The proceeds from the plains of Bel (45g) increase my income by a further 11%.

The human commander Ualgo arrives in Jotunheim from his home in the Alps.

The number of dissenters declines by one in the Black Alps and Gwyrth, but rises by one in Eribon after the departure of my avatar. Damnable snake-lovers! Oddly enough, the peasants of Pythium itself begin to grow accustomed to the surprisingly benign presence of my giants, who do not pillage or molest young virgins, so unrest there drops back down (by one) to the same level as when the citadel was invested.

The Norna Rimdriva joins the coven at Jotunheim, which achieve mastery of the third rank of 'Enchantment' and first rank of 'Construction' magics. This Enchantment lorecraft enables my avatar to add the spell of Astral Shield to its pre-battle preparations. This will enable it to ignore most physical attacks, unless the attacker is very resistant to magic.

The ancient king Tahmar is brought forth from burial in his mound, as are eight long dead Jotuns and two humans, all in rusted chain or scale armors.

My realm has:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">__6 Provinces (+Pythium under seige)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">309 Treasury.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">442 Income. (+47)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">144 Upkeep. (+17)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">131 Resources in the capital. (unchanged)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">_65 RPs</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
Gem income is:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+3 Astral (33)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+1 Death (03)</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">+2 Nature (17)</font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">
I command that another of the Seithkona in Jotunheim join my coven, and I also command that 4 Jotun Huskarls and a Jotun Spearman be readied, and a Jotun militia (and herse) in both Eribon and Bel are to be recruited as provincial defenders. These preparations drain the treasury of 262 coins

My prophet Grymis has failed to make progress proselytizing to the inhabitants in the farmlands surrounding the citadel of Pythium, but he continues to preach. My avatar, still alone, continues north into the wastes known as the Well of All Waters (#125), which may have as many as 30 amazons and at least one gryphon rider. Tahmar, the half-score longdead, and a half-dozen Jotun spearmen set out for the Alps, on their way to join the encampment at Pythium. Ualgo remains behind in the castle to command the Jotuns soon to be recruited.

<font size=1 color=brown>PS - All provinces with positive dominion, except my capital and the adjacent Iron Range (both at Cold-2), remain at Cold-1.</font>

<font color=blue>I repeat a small, but careless mistake this turn:</font>
</font>

• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><font color=blue>I leave the scout Bdvar in place for an eigth consecutive month in Saeborea.</font></font>

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><center><font size=1>to be continued ...</font></center>

[ February 11, 2004, 18:01: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Giants molesting virgins. THAT would be a strange sight to see. Haven't started the blood machine, then?

Afflictions are always so annoying, and more or less inevitable, with a combat pretender. Planning to get that cured at some point via your research in enchantment?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't aware Astral Shield actually prevented physical attacks from striking you. I thought it merely tacked on large amounts of fatigue to somebody that attacks you, until they pass out and get stuck there. Makes them a tasty snack while it Lasts, unless everyone becomes paralyzed and then your god is autokilled by a stalled battle.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The more I think about it, the more the idea appeals to me to have taken Cold-3 and used the points for Water-1, just to get the spell Quickness early on. It would have proved very useful in the battles thus far.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">First, the Utgard theme is bloodless. Second, I detest the whole idea of blood magic. It offends my morals, even if this is a game. Those poor, sad, screaming girls on the replays get to me. 'Nuff said. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I'll eventually cast Gift of Health. But not anytime soon.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Utgard is bloodless? I'm pretty sure that Utgard still has the Skrattis, which have at least one, maybe two ranks in blood, or certainly did the LAST time I played....and I'm pretty sure that was Utgard, since I remember the Nornas and Seithkonas.

Screaming....mmmmm.....you make it sound so much more interesting. If there was actual screaming noises, I'd be so entirely hooked on blood magic. I'm such a horrible person. Muhahahaha.

[ February 11, 2004, 21:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Page 103 states that the attacker has to pass a MR check to hurt you. Failure to pass means that you take no damage, and that the attacker becomes paralyzed (via mind bLast), if I read the spell correctly. The MR check is made tougher if the caster's astral level exceeds the casting minimum.

My observation of replays shows that most attackers become snacksicles.

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your memory is faulty. Try checking again. Skratti are in the other two themes.

The only chance is that a Norna gets a Blood with her 1 random. And the Norna is most likely to increase one of the 3 paths she already has, though I have seen Nornas with a Blood.

[ February 11, 2004, 21:12: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Say, when does the poor, neglected Bdvar finally get the love and attention he deserves, anyway? Or does he remain forgotten all the way up to the current turn, T18?

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You'll just have to wait and see, won't ya? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Are you going to continue doing a report for every single turn? This is going to be an awfully long report if you do. An Orania game will Last for at least maybe 100 turns or so...and at the present rate of post accumulation, we've picked up about 90+ Posts over the course of about 10 turns. At about 9 Posts per turn, this is going to balloon into a monstrous, 900-post megathread before you finish that game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll continue in this fashion until the consensus is that folks want something different.

Is there a thread capacity limit? Do we care? Seeing as many of the Posts have your name in them somewhere ... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

Hey, anything worth doing is worth doing with excessive force, that's what I always say. Let's see if we can't beat out the game bug thread, at 395 Posts!

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Indeed! <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No sweat.

Now hush for a while and let me finish typing up turn 12. I had it almost done (doing it all in the forum editor) and my machine crashed. This time I'm typing it in a text editor, with frequent saves, and will just cut & paste it in. I loathe losing over an hour's hard work.

[ February 11, 2004, 21:29: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your memory is faulty. Try checking again. Skratti are in the other two themes.

The only chance is that a Norna gets a Blood with her 1 random. And the Norna is most likely to increase one of the 3 paths she already has, though I have seen Nornas with a Blood. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">WellI just created a game with Utgard theme and Skratti ARE IN IT http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Guess who's memory is what ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Or is it a problem of game Version ? or mods ?

[ February 11, 2004, 21:33: Message edited by: IKerensky ]

Re: Jotunheim:Utgard AAR
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Urk, my very, very bad. I was looking for a human-sized caster and the Skratti are giant-sized, so I'd overlooked them. I profusely apologize.

[ February 11, 2004, 21:39: Message edited by: Arryn ]