Re: Speeding up battles
 

FRAPS is a handy snapshot tool, even if you use it for nothing else.

[ March 03, 2004, 23:04: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Current turn files may not contain actual unit placement (I don't know if they do, but it is not necessary to store them). The user can only control placement of commanders and squads which implies that the initial placement of all units can be reconstructed from these data. During the battle each unit moves on its own, thus the state after each round of the battle has to be saved completely, which will make it large (and what's worse Illwinter may not have code that can do it, meaning that it will require additional development).

I don't think that there's a need to pass this information, because it can be recomputed locally. It is drawing that slows down the battle replay, not computations. For example, on Orania map one turn hosting (about turn 80) takes 1-2 minutes (on my computer). This includes 6-10 battles with my participation with 1 or 2 including large number of units. With about 10 nations left, this means that an approximate total of 8*10/2 = 40 battles is processed including 7-8 large ones. It's easy to see that the large battle resolution isn't taking more than 5-10 seconds. So the state of the battle after every round can be calculated locally.

More difficult question is how to manage these data, depending on the internal program organization it may vary from very easy to very hard. But developers mentioned that the feature was in game, but was pulled out because of bugs.
And considering that recently Johan K. made few comments implying that he was using unpatched MSVC (ouch!) with unpatched STL, I believe our prospects of getting advanced battle replay capabilities are good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm glad you reminded me of this. I have a hard time understanding why they haven't patched the heck out of MSVC. Unpatched it was buggy as a swamp. It took over a year of patches to stabilize MSVC6 (aka MSDEV98) to the point where MSVC5 was at the time v6 was released. It would not surprise me if some of their problems were to "magically" disappear once they applied the latest patch set to MSVC6.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Keeping up with MS bug fixes is a full-time job. And Illwinter only has one "part-time" programmer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

Yes, the battles in this game are way too slow when several types of archers or just a few spirit helmets are part of it. I enjoy watching battles, but only those without ranged units.

No amount of excuses will take away the fact that it's a flaw.

I'd just like to add that I feel sorry for SlyFrog because of some responses he got and I fully agree with him. I just hate it when some people take the slightest criticism against their favourite game as a personal attack...

Re: Speeding up battles
 

Sly Frog,

At least 90% of the flame-wars, on this forum, are started by two people. You have already met them. The vast majority of posters are helpful and respectful.

Welcome to Dom2 and good luck,
Aikamun

[ March 04, 2004, 06:28: Message edited by: Aikamun ]

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now, since modded ranged weapons seem to have no missile animation (I learned that from the Ashikaga mod, where the archers are just as deadly, but fire much faster), it might be possible to "dummy-mod" all basic ranged attacks in the game so that they lose the animations... (basically, replace the ranged weapons of all units that have them with fake "new" weapons with the same stats, but with no missile animations).

Of course, if the next patch "corrects" the missing anims, they'll be back. And, you cannot watch where stray arrows land (you only get the blood splat where they hit home). But, for the sole purpose of replay time, that would probably work (at least, the Ashikaga archer volleys are fast in replays).

Note: I'm not going to start doing such a mod; I don't have the time and energy to go into this. I'm just offering the idea for a quick and dirty fix...

Re: Speeding up battles
 

A newbie perspective.

I've been playing the demo for the past week, deciding whether or not to purchase the full game. As this topic presents, one qualm I have is the lack of combat playback/speed/VCR-like controls.

Have the developers commented on whether not such a feature will be added (or not) in an update?

Thanks!

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Don't hold your breath.

It was present in Dominions 1, but the devs' comment is that it was buggy in Dom2, and was removed for this reason.

They haven't commented on it since then, AFAIK.

It is indeed quite annoying.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

hi everyone, my 2 cent:

The problem is not the battle replay itself, but its really the missiles imho. given you put your archers at the bach and they shot a volley each turn, then you waste quite a lot of time watching those arrows. I played approx 50-60 hours until now, and sometimes im really PISSED about the arrows. It happens that i quit a combat as soon as i realize that this one will take like forever to resolve.
The worst thing when zoom archers arent in range, the ones at the front fire their arrows, the arrows fly and hit something. then the archers at the back of that "regiment" move forward and shot another volley. this is really...well...BS

My conclusion: the game is good, BUT it could be by FAR better if some of the bigger bugs/flaws would be taken out. And whatever you all say, 50€ or whatever is FRIGGIN expensive for bugged things like this. Its not unplayable, but you sometimes think "well what if this would have been fixed by now"

just my 2 cent.
^^
oh yeah, dont let this end in a fanboy flame again

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Awesome ?

I wouldn't like to have hundreds of pages of text to wade through just to analyze one battle.

Two commanders fighting for five turns would probably make at least one page of text (if
presented in a readable way). Imagine a big and important battle with hundreds of units, mages and in-battle summoned creatures. Finding and analyzing the role of a specific unit in the battle would be a 'härke' of epical proportions.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just because *you* wouldn't like it doesn't mean that there aren't some players (such as myself) who would like the ability to do so.

Some players like MP, some SP. Some large maps, some small. Some fast battles, some very detailed ones ... with text reports.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, the best solution is to allow us to jump at the start of each round http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (I dont care about not having the rendering done between these rounds). Often in big battles some issues are not decided before round 10+, and its a big pain to wait for this moment.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, I just hate when I miss it happen and I have to start it all over again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

- Kel

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well I'd love it.

besides, once I had the text output I'd write some little 'combat analyzer' utility to help sort it all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Several of us have the same idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

i think it would also be helpfull for aar's
i would love going over the battle logs of a game

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No you wouldn't, you just think you do, fortunately illwinter is not one of these modern everything goes companies that never says no to the players of their game. Illwinter with a firm and gentle no, much like the parent stopping its child from eating to much coockie dough, dares take the responsibility to decide what is best for you. And 400 pages of hit and miss statistics for a single battle is not good for you, no matter what you think in the matter. You might not appreciate it now, but as you get older, and perhaps make games of your own, you will come to see the wisdom of our ways, perhaps even smiling wistfully at your own scallywag ways, wondering at the saintlike patience and almost supernatural wisdom with which we denied the numerous and varied demands of the playerbase.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

How about a scrollable log of just the spellcasting then? Maybe with turn number and success or failure.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Despite being wrapped in a humorous tone, this is a rather patronizing reply. It's also a patronizing attitude for any company to assume they know better than their customers what the customers themselves want/need.

It's not like this request is particularly hard to code either. The logic is likely to already be present in the code for debug purposes. A simple switch (via command line, or preferably menu option) that enables logging, and all combats get dumped out to a file. All you need are a few strategically placed fputs. Yes, it'll slow the combats down dramatically when activated. I'm sure that anyone who turns this on will (or should) realize that they are creating an huge I/O overhead and a dump file that may get rather large in size. That's what readme notes are for: warnings.

But to simply tell us that we don't need it "because you say we don't need it" is poor customer relations at best. At worse, it's a disingenuous smokescreen to keep hidden the detailed mechanics of combat resolution, which would be odd given how open IW has been in the past about answering questions on the subject.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course it is, we're swedes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

One cause, there might be more.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

I sure hope it does get fixed, the sooner the better, so I can get this game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">music to my ears http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

by the way, not to frustrate Arryn, but I agree with IW that it would be a bad idea to have a readout of every action in a battle. If you want that you should play pen and paper D&D, IMHO.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would this be a bad idea, if it's an option that can be turned on and off at will? If you, or anyone else, didn't want to use it you wouldn't have to. I fail to understand the mindset that says having fewer options is better ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Easier said than done. First, such games cannot be played solo. Second, gathering a group of players, when you are older and no longer in a college crowd, is very difficult to do. Things such as work, family, etc. tend to interfere with gameplaying.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why would this be a bad idea, if it's an option that can be turned on and off at will? If you, or anyone else, didn't want to use it you wouldn't have to. I fail to understand the mindset that says having fewer options is better ...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The explanation is that as many hours as Illwinter works on this particular extra feature are hours they don't spend on other (IMHO) more needed extra features.

Plus which I think I question the idea that more options is necessarily good - we don't need options so much as we need a good product. I think the hundreds of channels on cable tv in the US is a good example of this: lots of choice; little worth watching. In theory there's nothing bad about adding choice, but in practice it ends up decreasing quality - like a buffet restaurant where you can get whatever you want, but none of it is freshly cooked (i.e. it's been under warming lamps for a half hour). I'd far rather go to a place where I can only order one thing, if I know I like something they make, because most often it tastes better.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Easier said than done. First, such games cannot be played solo. Second, gathering a group of players, when you are older and no longer in a college crowd, is very difficult to do. Things such as work, family, etc. tend to interfere with gameplaying. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I hear you on this one - good D&D games (and gamers) are hard to find. However, it does seem more like what would scratch your itch (so to speak) in terms of the detailed play-by-play combat.


*edit* I should make it explicit that I'm not trying to get you to leave Dom II or this community - I think you make a contribution which is worthwhile and obviously you enjoy the game. I'm just saying it seems like what you are looking for in a game would be more fully found in D&D, or something similar.

[ March 07, 2004, 17:48: Message edited by: st.patrik ]

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How dare the developers make the game they want to make! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Illwinter! You're my slaves! *whhaa-pish* Mush! Mush!

While you're at it, add some length 8000 fear-inducing whips - this one doesn't seem to reach Sweden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How dare the consumers give input on the games they buy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Consumers! You're my slaves! *whhaa-pish* Mush! Mush!

While you're at it, add some length 8000 communion spells - this one doesn't seem to reach Sweden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

- Kel (just a counter-point) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Speeding up battles
 

I hate to kick a dead horse... well one more good kick and then on to other matters.

If it's on a switch then no one who doesn't want to bother would have to mess with it. Those that did would write utilities to make analyzing the file easier.

It wouldn't nessecarily have to have every single roll (although I'd like that best), so file size could be managed to a degree by what information was included in the file. Wouldn't have to be very 'readable' to a human in it's straight output format for that matter.

The idea that we should be playing D&D if we want detailed combat info is a Apples & Oranges kind of thing. I don't really see the connection.

btw...

The way things are currently, I could read a 400 page text readout of battles faster then I could watch the replay a coulpe time to try and figure out what happened http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif


PS: In case it wasn't clear.... I love this freaking game, thanks for all the hard work IW!

[ March 07, 2004, 19:00: Message edited by: Davidious ]

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That reply had me laughing out loud! Better than just not answering, in any case. Imagine a company that did not think it could decide which customer requests to implement or not.

Quote:

... But to simply tell us that we don't need it "because you say we don't need it" is poor customer relations at best. At worse, it's a disingenuous smokescreen to keep hidden the detailed mechanics of combat resolution, which would be odd given how open IW has been in the past about answering questions on the subject.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So it's clearly not that, eh? I see that reply as a much-needed injection of light-hearted humor into this thread. I rather like that Illwinter gives amusing teases sometimes. Remember they don't have to pay attention or reply at all.

Seems pretty easy to decode or guesstimate this into a logical reply, to me anyway. How many Users really want IW to spend time adding and testing hyper-detailed combat logging and the option control to turn it on and off? Even if they have detailed debugging logs, the hint was that they'd have to make them human customer (English) readable, which sounds like it could be a major chore. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to allow these devs who gave us such a fun game to continue to focus on what they want to, even for features that aren't only going to be useful for a slim fraction of their rabid fans.

I wouldn't mind such a log, and I might use it to find out what exactly happened sometimes (search for commander name...). I guess I'm a lot more content than some. Again, pretty much my only gripe is the AI not avoiding friendly fire. Arrow time is kinda long in some battles, but I still watch them all, at least until there is a rout with no risk of friendly fire deaths.

PvK

Re: Speeding up battles
 

perhaps we can get back on topic... Has Illwinter any kind of priority list? Do you think that one day, the speeding up of battle replay will make a comeback?

Most of dom1 veterans really miss this feature. It dont hampers the casual gamer who dont care if the enemy lamia queen just ceased to cast because she collapsed from excess spell fatigue caused by the frost generated by an enemy ice devil... but its really a pain in the rear to have to wait (not that patiently) that the battle comes to the point where we want to scrutinize all parameters affecting our units.

If you allow me the comparison, its like when you want to debug something, and you dont have the option of making a step by step trace with your compiler, if you prefer...

[ March 07, 2004, 12:12: Message edited by: Pocus ]

Re: Speeding up battles
 

If the battle replay bug is fixed, and stays fixed, there is nothing stopping the adjustable battle replay speed from being reintroduced.

Re: Speeding up battles
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm confused. Wasn't this bug recently found and fixed? Or was that a different replay bug?