Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I very rarely see my Jotuns rout. Even their militia has 11 morale, and the other units all have at least that much, most have more. That combined with their high HP and extreme ease of routing the *enemy* by causing massive casualties means they rarely retreat, in my experience.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I'm sure Arryn has run into this at some point before: Jotun militia, I've found, is notorious for its tendency to break and run from battles that it could have otherwise won. Jotuns generally are more susceptible to morale failure, despite their individually higher morale, for several reasons:

#1: Their high hitpoints mean that they frequently survive hits, which force a morale check for being injured.
#2: Their higher cost means you'll have less of them in the squad, so they don't have the same level of large-squad buffering.
#3: Their large size means that relatively few Jotuns will form a line compared to the masses of smaller units that swarm you. A single Jotun will end up fighting at least 3 humans.
#4: Last but not least, large units running in terror are more noticeable. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif It's easier to gain a reputation for cowardice when all eyes are on you as you bravely run away. And when they run, they take a larger amount of fighting power with them.

So, as a general rule, given units of equal morale, say, a Jotun with morale 11, and humans with morale 11, the Jotuns are more likely to cut and run.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">About all I hear about Jotun militia is that they have the best militia in the game. EDIT: And I can't believe you'd say they have a reputation for cowardice when compared to, say, Machaka or C'tis, whose militia have a reputation for running away before the fight even starts sometimes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Jotunheim is my second favorite nation. I play it A LOT. It's much more common to see my 20 PD beat 60-80 attackers than it is to see them run from them (Barring fear units/spells, of course, or SC's etc that you can't depend on non-scripted solutions for).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, I see, so dieing is preferable to living because it doesn't force a morale check. Gotcha.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And their higher HP and STR means they kill more of the enemy than the enemy can kill of them. Enemies break VERY quickly when being faced with giants.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which has nothing to do with morale.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'll give you that point.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not this one though. A human with morale 11 is EXACTLY as likely to run as a giant with morale 11. The giant, however, will do more damage and Last longer in a fight.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:10: Message edited by: Zurai ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It does have something to do with morale. Since you force a morale check every time you are attacked. A square can only have up to 6 in size in it. Each attack lowers defense by 1, so there is a greater chance of an attack going through. Also each single large unit has more morale checks since more units can attack it per square. Though the primary reason that Giants seem to have poor morale (to the uninitiated) is because of their lower than average squad size which would give them a lower base morale than a similiar group of human milita (with much less survivability).

And in response to Fliers Routing, they rout much more not because of any inherent 'ability' but because of their deployment (when attacking they move in a circle around an area) which allows each and every unit to attack and be attacked (as opposed to front lines clashing). With the fragility of the units, lower average armor (even with Iceclad/SGuard) they tend to rout easier than other units of the same variety.

This is why losing a Holy3 priest by RotR is even more annoying.

[ March 05, 2004, 07:28: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Thematically I like the way it is. Raptor ruling class and old prophecies and so on sound very nice. The distiction is quite enough at the moment (propably most of you disagree with me). Usable strategies differ well enough.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Note that the only useful skill on the unit there is the 1 air for orb lightning. Everything else has no useful rituals, and giving a mage ironskin isn't that impressive.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It actually doesn't have much lower upkeep, High eraphs are 11.7, Harab Elders are 9 per turn. The 1 earth is just as useless here as on the Harab Seraph.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I _really_ doubt that RotR is anywhere near as effective as base Caelum. They have less magical versatility with no random picks, less research ability with harab seraphs having the same research ability as default Seraphs and only costing 10 less, and far more expensive mages. A mage that costs less than 200 can be bought one per turn from about turn 3 or 4 onwards. One that costs 270 is going to be every other turn at most. You also have far, far fewer of the harab elders than the high seraphs, since you can't build them at every fortress. Their magic skills also have little synergy. The only notable death/air skills are summon valkyries and death wind, both of which are quite high level. That plus the fact that a mage can only cast one spell at a time, no matter what skills they have, severely weakens them.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ironskin is still good to have. You'll understand that the day someone casts Rain of Stones on your Seraph-heavy army.

Quote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt this. High seraphs are hard to beat for research.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">[/quote]

Only Vanheim, Arco, and Pythium if they get lucky, can reliably expect to be able to cast rain of stones, so you'll have to change your tactics for them. The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there. Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal. Especially when those seraphs will have likely cast mistform. Then there's also always murdering winter if we are talking about level 7 spells.

Quote:

[qb]But he's right. 2 Harab Seraphs cost about the same as a single High Seraph and give 2 more RPs with a flat magic scale. This edge gets even sharper with a +magic scale and when you factor in experience.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though, while the high seraph that you bought for the same price can also cast spring hawks, forge the air boosters and staff of storms, cast wrathful skies, etc. Plus, High seraphs are available in large numbers, unlike Harab Elders.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cool, now this makes things interesting... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if you could play them in the same way, then it would be boring. I think a theme should always require a change in your strategies...

That said, I do not understand how the raptors manage so well with Cold 3, as the raptor-troops are not cold resistant, or is the encumbrance factor only important for mages and commanders?

So this forces you to drag your dominion behind rather than pushing it, doesnt it?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rain of Stones is an extreme exemple, there are several other ways to inflict hideous losses to a bunch of unprotected mages who would survive with just Ironskin.

Quote:

The weightless armors and rainbow armor and so on should be able to help a great deal there.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's an expensive way to protect a horde of 90 gp mages.

Quote:

Losing quickness and air 2 to gain ironskin for a few rare cases isn't that much of a deal.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On that I agree. Just wanted to point out that Ironskin is still far from useless. 90 gp mages are expendable if need be, put a dozen close to the front line and try (Ironskin)(Summ. Storm Power)(Mistform)(Mirror Image)(Resist Lightning)(cast spells) someday, works wonders if you can get the timing right so the enemy troops close on your mages as soon as they've finished casting their buffs.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those two harab seraphs are only good for research though</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's another matter. The point was : "Raptors are a bit faster researchers", and you followed with "I doubt this".

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

First about research as Nagot Gick Fel said Harab Seraphs are faster researchers. If you (as is mostly done with Caelum) add Magic scale to that, then you're research is a bit faster than base Caelum can go with (base Caelum Seraph is also faster than High Seraph.

With Harab Seraphs you also get undead leadership. That's not to be forgotten with them. Also their paths are not useless if you think about the troops they are normally used with. Nagot already pointed out one good use for them. But if one says that only usefull spell is Orb Lightning then you haven't checked all the choices there is. That earth pick is very usefull for early expansion. If you go on item usage, then it's much more powerfull (they also can use Rain of Stones and also reserach it quite quickly). Ironskin as said is a very good spell (as are some others). It's not that uncommon to kill unarmoured mages.

Spring Hawks and etc rituals can be cast by Harab Elders as well as High Seraphs. For construction you can more easily get Dwarven Hammers. You only get 1 more air gem/turn, so not much more air rituals for base Caelum. Too much lighting use can backflash later in the game (can be defended against, and everyone will expect it). Storm is as effective for Raptors as for base Caelum. Quickness is missing and it takes some firepower away, but Raptors are not designed for combat lighting firepower as base Caelum is. They have more strengts elsewhere. Elders are Capital only which means that you have less of them, but Harab Seraphs used well are far from ineffective (they just are not lightning throwers). In longer games upkeep is quite important thing. Raptors have lower upkeep and it counts for quite much. Also the better aproach for no supply and no upkeep troops is an important matter. And the fact that Raptors are better at hurting enemy economy is very important.

When you start you can (with patrol) buy few Elders already. It also saves money if you consider other ways than Mammoths for early expansion.

Raptors synergy with their magic comes with their troops, not only with combat spells. Air, earth and death must all be used to their full effect. Earth can alone fix some of the flaws of Caelums' troops.

About that Dominion. Raptors can't push their dominion as effectively as base Caelum, meaning that where the figth is there most propably is not a Cold +3 province (and you don't have Wolven Winter for easy use).

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Good Point about Rain of Stones, RotR itself can use it to good effect, because of Ironskin.

Otherwise I agree with Graeme and others, RotR is much weaker than vanilla. Although I'd be happy enough with it if I could get rid of the holy-2 on the Elders for, say 20 gold, and get the Seraphines back in exchange.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No it doesn't. A size one hobbit alone in a square gets attacked just as often as a size six pretender alone in a square. A size 4 giant with a size 1 or 2 companion isn't alone in a square.

I will say this: Jotun militia *might* rout where other militia would have *certainly* died. That's certainly true. I have never, ever heard that they have a "reputation for cowardice" though; as I said, all I have *ever* heard about Jotun militia is that they're by far the best.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

No. They don't. They get attacked less since you can put 6 hobbits in a square. And only 1 giant per square. Unless you have an attack that affects an entire square (I.E. Harvest Blade) the giant will get more attacks because each attack on a square doesn't go to the 'first unit' in the square, but is determined randomly.

This is why Vaetti and Huskarls fill the weakness of getting swarmed in Base and Utgard themes.

[ March 05, 2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Can NOT be defended against. Thunder ward gives only 50% resistance nowadays, and thunder strike will happily still kill people trough it. orb lighning becomes very useless though, but a level-3 air mage is good enough with thunder strike.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Raptors arn't specifically better at hurting enemy economy. Also upkeep is a factor for late game, but I feel more important is mage production/use. If upkeep is slightly higher and research slightly faster with Harab Seraphs than High Seraphs, but each of those High Seraphs as the game progresses becomes more functionally useful than Harab Seraphs, I would say the better is the High Seraph. Especially considering the variety of spells (from Water to Air) as well as manuverability to underwater (which RotR lacks) and that Harab Seraphs are much less of a factor in both raiding and 'fighting'.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A single Earth with no chance for random does not fix this flaw. It only produces a slightly more survivable mage in terms of melee, and slower fatiguing because they lack quickness.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And this is a detriment, since half of your units fight better in a Cold Dominion; but the other half do not. So you are trapped between being able to take advantage and being at the whim of enemy dominion. If you take a weaker dominion to save points for a pretender; you will be more easily pushed (especially since you can't preach up dominion well at all) around and your dominion countered. If you do sink the points into a high punishing dominion, your theme specific troops are at a disadvantage over base Caelum. Not to mention the economic impact of still being Cold3 Preference.

[ March 05, 2004, 19:23: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But what if there's only 1 hobbit in a square? Please for the love of God go back and read what I said. It is a VERY indirect factor on morale, one of quite a few. It is NOT a direct factor on morale in any sense of the word.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I consider it direct, since the game isn't played with 1 unit vs 1 unit, but in a squad mentality.

If everything you say is only based on 1 unit specifics, then Giants are the best in no uncertain terms. But since the game is composed of assigned resources and gold on a per unit basis as well as size, then you can't simply ignore the entirety of squad size, unit size, standards and any number of things when saying "This is the best".

If your point is that morale as a system is unaffected by size thus Giants and Humans are no different based on simple number values, I don't think anyone was saying counter to this. What I do think was said is that there are alot of factors for which Giants are more prone to make morale checks than other units. Most of your argument has been 'read' and 'heard'. The reality within the game is that you have to take special consideration of Giants below a certain Squad size because of the factors of morale.

If you were *only* talking about PD, which every player pays the same cost per point of militia, then you are correct. I don't think anyone has said that Jotun PD isn't on top or near the top of the PD heap.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Incorrect. NONE of my argument was "read" or "heard". ALL of my argument was in-game experience. Where the "read" and "heard" comes in is refuting Norfleet's incorrect statement "Then why is it that Jotun militia, especially, is widely reputed for its cowardice?"

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Again, all my statements about Jotun PD were made to refute the extremely off-center statement from Norfleet.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Norfleet didn't mention PD at all. Just Militia as an example based on Arryn's statement that the even the Militia have 11 Morale (Which is not entirely true, their base Morale is 10, while human militia is 8. Only the factor of home province and Domain change this).

I don't know about 'widely noted for their cowardice' but the issue that they have a tendancy to rout because of the other factors that were stated is by and large true.

[ March 05, 2004, 20:55: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Seems that is saying their word agaist Raptors here. Then I'll be the one to say a word for them.

Lets first see what changes from base Caelum in RotR.

Mages:
Loses the best mage in game. Seraph costs more and is capital only. Raptors get Harab Seraph and Harab Elder.
Harab Seraph
Costs only 90 gold (10 gold less than base Caelum Seraph), 1 in earth, death and air
Harab Elder
Costs 270 gold (compared to 175 of base Caelum), but is sacred (so has much lower upkeep than base Caelum HS). Gets 3 Air, 2 death and 1 earth and 2 holy. No randoms hurts a bit. Capital only unit.

In the end Raptors lose much in water, some in air, much in randoms but they gain much in death and earth. It's must to learn how to use those magics effectively with air and their troops to compete.

Priests:
Raptors loses Seraphim (a very good priest as pointed) and gets 2 holy to their Elder. Lose much precious holy 3. Still they have access to Seraphim in PD (makes sense as Raptors are only the ruling society).

Troops:
Lose the (precious to many) only sacred unit Temple Guard. Get Raptor and the most amazing Ravens Guard. For Raptor strategies this is a very good thing. Ravens Guard used right (and Raptors can do it) is just amazing. They have the attack punch almost all of the Caelum troops miss.

Cold:
They lose some of the cold benefits.

Most of the main changes are here.


Thematically Raptors are a good theme in my opinion. Raptors coming back to rule the society through their magics (mainly death and earth here). They haven't got the cold resistance. But the people of Caelum do have it still. That's why changing the cold preference to 0 or 1 is not a good idea. Most of the people living in Caelum still prefer it and should have thier best income in cold +3. It would ruin the theme to lower it as their people still like it.


About strategies:

Raptors are not your HI country. If you prefer HI in every one of your strategies, then Raptors are not the country for you. For earlier expansion Raptors do have other keys than Mammoth/Wingless strategy. Using low level spells and archers backed up by h seraph and h elder or 2-3 h seraphs can take care of most of the independents (even knights and HI easily). Mammoth is expensive and that's why have high upkeep also. Mages can be recruited one / turn, so it's slower method, but high cost of mammoths makes that also slow.

Raptors are a bit faster researchers than base the theme and have to rely much on their magic (and summons also). Also pretender choice is narrower than with base Caelum. You need to make sure that you can get something to raise your earth magic to get needed items and spells.

In the essence to get the best out of Raptors one can't just go with normal Caelum strategies. Getting the best out of earth and death is very important and using Raven's Guard and summons (mostly different than base Caelum) effectively.


About the changes proposed here:

Making Raven's Guard a sacred unit is ok but not necessary. I don't see Raptors as the sacred theme. They're fallen and not that sacred to me. Wingless sacred, hopely never.

Holy 3 to harab elder. This is more a death nation than a holy nation. Holy 3 is very good, but I wouldn't give it to Raptors. It would also make H Elder to cost more, which is not a good idea for Raptors. Death and summon approach makes morele a bit lesser problem so one can go with only holy 2.

One air to random with H Elder is ok. But can very well go without. That random mostly makes them more powerfull.

Starting spell can be changed, no problem. But changing it to blight or call of the wind would make Raptors weaker. Thematically many spells are good. Wind Guide is just as ok.

Removing old units (other than Temple Guard) is not thematically a good idea. Doesn't fit the theme that well to lose units that still exist in your society. Othervise wouldn't care that much to lose Spirehorns to Raptors. Mammuth and Wingless or Gryphon idead are also ok. I don't use Mammoth that much with Raptors (as it's not that needed). Losing Mammoth might make people think about other strategies. Mostly the theme should be kept in mind in my opinion (and it's also a good one).

Basically I like Raptors just the way they are, but it seems that most of the other people don't like them this way. Both Caelum themes are one my favourite themes in dom2. I'm willing to defend Raptors in a discussion here. I'll try to point out that it's as strong as base Caelum is. It just has to be played differently to be as effective.

Ask (or point out) what you want and I'll try to answer back as well as possible. Got a bit long this one.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

What do you think, should Return of the raptors be a seraph- based society with a raptor ruling class ( as it is now ) or an entirely raptor-based society? I think the latter is a better idea, and would thematically result in a clearer distinction between base and Rotr Caelum.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Staff of storms is overpowered, way way to overpowered, not to mention it totally kills my abysian devil factory strategy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Raptors have more options initially (because of their magic choices) to hurt enemy economy than base Caelum, the increase is not that huge, but can be significant in a dedicated economy strike.

It's true that High Seraph are much better in late game than Harab Seraphs, and that lack of water gives a disadvantage in water provinces. But the research is better and that counts for much initially.

Single pick in earth does in fact negate weapon array flaw a little. In early expansion that counts for much. Items can increase it later. Base Caelum is not that efficient in their earth approach and that gives them a flaw.

Dominion can't be forgotten. But without Hearth of Winter and Seraphines you can't push your dominion that efficiently in border provinces. That means that it's not that cold there than in your inner lands. In inner lands you don't need that cold resistance that much. But this is hard point in playing Raptors. They are definitely weaker in cold approach.

About lightning defence. Everyone will expect lightning from Caelum and keep that in mind (at least veterans). Battlefield placement, items and spells can decrease effectiveness of lighting attacks (let's forget spells over 7th level). I know that Thunder Ward gives 50% resistance. But that is a defence. It's not immunity (I never said about making it useless), but a good defence. Reducing those damages by half (especially with Orb Lightning, one of the best lighting spells) is quite important, it takes some edge away from you. It really doesn't make air-3 mage useless, but reduces their effectiveness. Never rely too much on lighting even with base Caelum, have to have other approaches in mind also.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This doesn't give you any more gems to use per turn, so I don't see it as being an 'improvement' over base which has just as good of a spell in Hurricane.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This may be playstyle. It's not much more research. It's not like going from Jotun base to Jotun Niefel.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I assume by this you mean earth boots that you would have to empower someone to forge, then go from there? That may be an option in SP, but not in MP. And that option is still open to Base Caelum because High Seraphs come with 1Random. Ironskin is still Alteration 3, so it's not *that* early of expansion. If they started with it, I could see it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you plan on not having a decent dominion, you are regulating a high percentage of your provinces to heavy economic penalties, since Caelum has Cold3 Preference.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uhm. That doesn't change anything. You can expect lightning and air elemental strikes all you want. It's not going to change that advantage. As Tuna stated, Thunder Strike hammers through 50% resistance just fine and Shock Wave works great. It's not as if your normal armies (or even summoned) are suddenly lightning resistant because you expect heavy lightning use or even have the mage type (air) to keep in your main armies. With the mobility of Caelum and Cloud Trapeze and the effectiveness of Wrathful Skies and Storm (still) you will have a hard time convincing me that suddenly you are going to have a Air Mage with gems ready for Thunder Ward in every province. It also doesn't stop Phantasmal units (Wolves and Armies) with use from Air. And the Spell AI is smart enough to switch it after your scripted spells.

And if you are talking about magekiller combatants geared towards resistances, most of your opponents are smart enough to pick up at least the resistances of the nation they are up against. So it wouldn't matter if you relied on Lightning or not.

If you enjoy and feel that RotR is great, that's fantastic, but with all the minor points that they take away from the base theme are not replaced and is nowhere near as versitile and thus in my mind weaker.

[ March 06, 2004, 10:14: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Hurricane is a good spell for hurting enemy economy, but the problem is that it's just one spell. So it just takes Air gems. Death and Earth both can inflict similar results, which covers 3 different gems. That's why you have more gems in overall to use. Also in the situation when that one gem is not to be found well you still have 2 other choices to go with.

About research High Seraph has 8 research points. Two Harab Seraphs have 10 research points together (and cost only 5 gold more). If you take positive magic scale (quite usual with Caelum) you get double the benefit. Also experience counts for double. With Magic scale +3 (and no experience) High Seraph has 11 points and 2 Harab Seraphs have 16 research points. A difference of 2-5 (without experience) is quite an important difference as it's only for 175 to 180 gold. Multiply that with other reserachers and the difference is very huge. (Base Caelum with Seraphs can do the same with 200 gold) But as said they're later use is not that good as with High Seraphs (being the best mages in game).

In this thread it was said before that Raptors have a more narrow choices for valiable pretender. It's very important to make sure that you have a pretender that has at least 2 in earth. Othervise you are giving up much strenght in earth. That can also be made with base Caelum, but in average you have 3 mages having an earth pick when you have 24 mages. And you can't count on getting those when you need them. And Ironskin is for not much use in initial expansion (also as you said Alt3 is too high early), Alt2 is enough and that you can get very quickly when you prepare your armies (and possibly your pretender). You don't need the armor for your mages early, hurting them is more important.

I wouldn't go with a Dominion of 5 or lower. At least 6 must be taken (depends on pretender choice). The problem is that you don't have Seraphim pushing your cold dominion and can't have Heart of Winter. Scales of +3 don't come that fast and that's why your borders propably don't have it. Even with a very high dominion it's hard to manage.

I'm not saying that Air 3 is not effective. It's awesomely effective in all it's variability. Lightning Strike is almost as good without 50% res or with it. And having mages ready everywhere with air gems is not good. Never ever try to do that with any race, not a good idea. I'm saying that troop placements, unit choices and etc... are easier to make against a certain overused threat than a variable threat. Relying too much on one thing has the problem of guessability and with it defences. Mostly the effect of this comes in huge battles, which are quite an important decisive factor in many wars. That little edge just might be enough.

I like RotR very much, but propably I like the base Caelum more. It's true that many minor (and major) points have been taken away, but there are replacements. You just have to look for them. Raptors are definitely much harder to play than base Caelum and needs lot's of thinking. But the strengts are there. Where does they lose their versatility in your opinion Zen?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You have to search with these other gems, and I find with base Caelum, if you are using hurricane a bit; it's because you have nothing better you can forge/summon. The same could be said with the other two gem types.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This doesn't kick in until you have 2+ Fortresses, and with the cost of High Seraphs, more than likely you are recruiting 2 a turn of those as much as you would with Harab Seraphs (unless you are buying alot of mammoths). I never said that the research wasn't slightly better than base Caelum, but as I stated before the scope less of a variable, especially considering how I play Caelum.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So if you are saying there are less choices and you 'have' to take a pretender with Earth 2, you are using the Pretender to do the majority of the work with your "Earth" which base Caelum can do just as easily. I'd say a good % of base caelum games start with a Natarajah with 3 Earth. So that 1 Earth isn't all it's cracked up to be. Base Caelum with Alt 2, is about twice as effective as RotR with Alt 2. As you should note.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't found it to be so. Like I said though that is entirely a playstyle issue. The significant gold impact of a lower dominion may be why some of your other arguments don't seem that much of an issue.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's true, but that's true of Every nation/theme in the game, so I don't see why Lightning or Caelum is singled out.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They lose the High Seraph = Water.
They lose the Seraphim = All things associated with a Base 3Holy Priest. This is especially significant with nations with temperature preference or units without ways to compensate for morale (I.E. Nature magic, Standards).
They lose the Temple Guard = The one recruitable unit of Caelum that isn't fragile. Work well with Water Magic.

They gain Harab Elder, Harab Seraph = Death Magic.
Death magic is not extremely versatile, but it can be very strong. The same can be said for Blood Magic.

The gain the Raven Guard = Non-Cold Protection based flying troop. I have had tremendous success with using Storm Guards and Iceclads in normal to heat temperatures. So these, while nice, don't offer me much as my thinking has been to adapted to using the Cold and so having a unit that doesn't lose protection in a normal/heat enviroment doesn't offer a solution to the fact that High Seraphs were the portion that gave the punch to an army. If I'm not using a heavy Cold Dominion I don't get as much gold, which means I can recruit less Raven Guard, which evens out more or less to the higher resource, but less gold Iceclads. In my experience 25 Raven Guard with 3 Harab Elders are less effective as 25 Iceclads with 3 High Seraphs in a normal enviroment even though the RotR costs more.

[ March 06, 2004, 20:04: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you plan to catch large amounts of flying/cloud trapezing mages?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How do you script the mages, or is the AI clever enough for spell-picking?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Butterfly net? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Butterfly net? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. Which reminds me...how many Caelians fit on the head of a pin? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dominion 6 is not a high dominion. Dominion 6 is just about the bare minimum for a race with no temperature preference. 7 is a good the minimum for a race with a temperature preference, and they should really have 8 or 9.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I take Dominion 4 routinely in MP and SP game without much problem... How do you arrive at your number? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Personal preference or different experiences? Myself I'd put the "bare minimum" at 3 for the standard nations, with 4-6 being customary. And 5 (6-9) for the extremes like Caelum or Abysia.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map. On a larger map, being domkilled is somewhat less imminent, and you'll have more time to boost your dominion with mad temple building, since you'll have eonugh space to do it.

Also, dominion in friendly provinces provides a percentage gain in income equal to current dominion level, IIRC, and the stronger your dominion is in the province, the faster the scales tilt towards your preferred settings.

However, I've read in the past, but never really seen proven either way that low dominion may actually spread FASTER unopposed than high dominion and carpet out over the land at low levels before higher dominion does. This is unconfirmed, but either way, high dominion is much more stubborn and difficult to uproot without concerted effort, and leaves you less susceptible to dominion-kill by preaching. IIRC, a sufficiently high dominion can be impervious to preaching by low-level priests.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think his number is a concern over being Dominion-killed by a higher-dominion player using a dominion-push strategy on a small map.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In my experience it's nigh to impossible to dominion-kill a human player with a decent empire. You have to beat this player militarily before you can cancel his dominion, not the reverse.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">As for the resistance to preaching: if you believe ceremony's document, the higher your dominion, the harder it is to preach out.

For low dominion spreading faster: your maximum dominion acts as a "container", and your dominion will only start spreading out when that container is full. So, the higher your maximum dominion, the longer it will take for this new container to fill and start spreading further.

Of course, a higher max dominion means each dominion source (temples, pretender, prophet; I believe Priests have different mechanisms) has a better chance of actually raising/spreading dominion, but at least in the early game, your pretender and prophet should be your main source of dominion, so the "small container" effect should work better.

(Note this is just speculation, I haven't done any systematic testing to support my thoughts)

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Took some time to answer, lines been of quite a lot.

Dominion 6 is the min I take with Raptors even in a large map. As said here before dominion can be lower in large maps and different pretenders and strategies need different amounts of Dominion. It can't be said that certain dominion is always needed in Dom2. Different strategies have different needs.

About Cloud Trapezing mages and defence. It depends very much on nation, size of the map, turn number, the need for the defence and so on to tell a one tactic I would use. Cloud Trapazing mages are very effective (for both themes).

Mostly the gems go for summoning and items, but Hurricane has it's place. Also have to say that Decay for example is better than Hurricane. But they have their uses in a well prepared and dedicated economic strike.

Have to stop now. I'll post the end a bit later.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

No more classes to teach anymore.

I agree Zen on the point that you don't have 2 fortresses from the start and you research according to your playstyle and strategy. That's why speed is not always the most important thing. Price, later use and etc. make variables and change things around quite often. No best style out there. And yes base Caelum is initially faster in research after you have to change away from Elders for some time, which is an important point to note also.

Pretender is only for few items, harab seraphs can do the rest of the work. I know that base Caelum has an earth 3 pretender (or 2 sometimes) quite often and can do the same. The point was more in the fact that mostly you only have a few earth Users in base Caelum and can't know when you'll get them. Empowering is just too expensive. Base Caelum is more effective with Alteration 2 according to firepower (both are as good in pretender part), Raptors are better in defence (firepower counts for more initially).
But a simple spell like Armor of Achilles (alt2) gives quite much power to your troops (cuts knights like butter in the first runs).

About income. In average Raptors have propably about 5% less income than base Caelum. But you'll propably end with a little lower unit upkeep which takes some of the edge back.

Caelum's lightning approach is not any different than the approach os some other nations (though not all). The same things can be said to other nations also. It was just the point not to rely too much on one thing.


About the changes:

Seraph is still left for some water entry (water increase item needs only water 1). But you still lose most of your water access (not too much left).

Losing the 3 holy priest is bad, but death magic takes some of it back as you'll end up having (most propably) quite a lot of high morale troops. But Caelum fliers get hurt for some as they're the ones needing those boosts.

I agree with you about the dead. Not teh most versatile. Very strong if used well. Reducing enemy economy and very strong summons (and a 2 random mage as your going with conjuration most propably), which do not eat (very important for Caelum) and cost anything.

Lose Temple Guards and gain Ravens Guard. Let's face it as you say Caelum fliers are very fragile (even Iceclad). Temple Guard has the best morale, is blessable, has Iceclads armor and weapons and better stats than Iceclad. They are just damn slow and yes water is very good with them. Ravens Guard on the contrary is the best offensive unit Caelum can get. They have the best damage and 2 attacks and a move of 3 (very important when comparing to Iceclad and Storm Guard) They just lack in defence. But fliers really need more punch than defence. Giving them even more offensive punch makes them much better than Iceclads. I agree on the point that their cost is quite the same in the end (Ravens's guard is easier to get, but cost more also giving possibly the option of taking lower productivity than +3). Harab mages can help them and the effect is there. Also Harabs use more battle summons quite often (depends on base strategy). But in raiding warfare that move of 3 gives the edge, 2 is just too slow quite often in my opinion. Propably you don't use 3 elders (one or two is enough). But the strategy is determined against the opposition in hand, not overally.

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

Does anyone know the exact effect of Seeking Arrow?

Re: Caelum questions, both themes.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Arrow hits one commander in the target province (at random, but the size of the commander could maybe play a role). It makes 5 to 15 damage + a permanent chest wound if the target survives. Perpetual Storm, anti-missile items and/or etherealness do protect the target (75% ?). The spell is anonymous.

Cheers