Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both and neither. For they never existed.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:09: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Again Arryn please focus on the topic which is Unknown magic sites. The point I was proving is the copper/iron mines found at capitals are unknown nonexistent magic sites. My Last post was directed at GavinWheeler which was explaining how it is possible to have something unknown and nonexistent. Until the first spider web was actually created it was also unknown and nonexistent.
And as I have written earlier:
One of the following conditions apply:
To know about something which does not exist (dinosaurs, places or plants now extinct, places yet to be created, etc...)
To not know about something which does not exist (futuristic metals, fuels or substances)
To know about something which does exist (gasoline, the wheel)
To not know about something which does exist (cancer, quantum physics, etc.)

[ March 19, 2004, 23:13: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

???

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Astounding... 4 pages of total fluff...

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

And the winner is .... NTJedi.

Complainer of the year award goes to Arryn. What a NAG !

>>>THE HORNED KING<<<

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it is impressive considering the answer to the question posed: "are there unknown magic sites in starting provinces" is a clear: "Not in capital provinces but possibly in other starting provinces." - and was answered in the first four Posts.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:34: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, it is impressive considering the answer to the question posed: "are there unknown magic sites in starting provinces" is a clear: "Not in capital provinces but possibly in other starting provinces." - and was answered in the first four Posts. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And I simply pointed out that its possible to have unknown nonexistent magic sites at the capital as well.
Copper and Iron Mines which become available from events.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:38: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is incorrect. Something cannot be known or unknown if it doesn't exist. That doesn't make it unknown, which implies it has properites to know. If it doesn't exist it has no proprities and therefore nothing to know.

EDIT: to make a simplier comparision, saying a non-existant object is unknown is logically equivilent to 1/0. Yes, you can say it. No, it doesn't make any sense. No, it isn't helpful in any way.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:41: Message edited by: Phoenix-D ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Because it doesn't exist makes it unknown for the case with the copper and iron mines. Hypothetically speaking if a fortune teller was able to see into the future and witness the event which brought the copper and/or iron mine then for that fortune teller it would be known and nonexistent.

IF humans were to evolve into something else within the next 2000 years... this would currently qualify as unknown and nonexistent.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:53: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And thus we start from square one again, and another four pages of bickering.

As you very well know, copper and iron mines do not become available from events (implying that they have some sort of prior existence as iron or core deposits, which is now through the hard labour of the peasantry turned into an iron mine) - they are created out of nothing as a random event based on the current scales of the province in question. The text blurb may say otherwise, but only the most credulous peasant in the land would believe it - and we are discussing as players, not as inhabitants of the fantasy world.

If an "iron deposit" or a "copper deposit" were created in specific provinces during game initialisation and then found at some time during game play, you would have a point in saying that they were made available, became known, &etc.

But they are not.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:52: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Peter look at it from this angle then:

Hypothetically speaking if a fortune teller was able to see into the future and witness the event which brought the copper and/or iron mine then for that fortune teller it would be known and nonexistent.
OR
If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

[ March 19, 2004, 23:57: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Since when does precognition have a place in the debate of existance? Might as well say "What if Space Clams said sometime in the future there would be X" then it has to be known, yes?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Zen look at it from this angle then:


If someone programmed an event for that copper and/or iron mine to appear.... then for that programmer it would be known and nonexistent. Yet it would remain unknown and nonexistent for any of the other gamers.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Only from their peception. I can claim to 'know' things which may or may not be fictional about anything. And you've switched your debate topic. What if the programmer programmed the copper or iron mine to only appear on certain conditions but not for other conditions? Then those conditions are not met, so there is no possibility of there ever being a iron or copper mine, is it still known?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, hypothetically allowing precognition, and infallible precognition at that.... (I know I am going to regret this)

No, the copper mine would be nonexistent but it would be known to the fortuneteller that a copper mine would exist at some time and place in the future. That is not the same as that future copper mine being known to the fortuneteller in the present, and, likewise, the copper mine was not unknown in the present before the fortune teller performed his divination.

Before the divination, the fact that a specific copper mine would exist at that time in the future would be unknown - but that fact is not the copper mine.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, that future mine would be nonexistent in the present, but the programmer would know the fact that a copper mine with specific properties would come into existence at some time in the future. He would not know the copper mine now.

You seem to be consistently equating concepts and ideas with objects, and equating knowledge of future events with future objects being known in the present (when, in fact, only the knowledge that they will exist in the future is known), which makes this discussion very surreal.

EDIT: More surreal that it was already, that is. Bringing precognition into a discussion is not usually a good way to advance your cause.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:17: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be known that the copper mine is nonexistent until the event took place. Thus the copper mine is known and nonexistent for this case. One could even prepare to use the mine the day it arrives by saving gold. Another explanation for it being known and nonexistent. The fact that it is known to appear in the future still shows there is known knowledge about the mine.

==================================


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes... the programmer still has known knowledge about the mine. The programer knows the mine will appear when those conditions are met... thus making it known and nonexistent. The copper mine would remain unknown and nonexistent for all the other gamers unless the programmer lets them know and/or the event occurs.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:54: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It would be known that the copper mine is nonexistent until the event took place. Thus the copper mine is known and nonexistent for this case. One could even prepare to use the mine the day it arrives by saving gold. Another explanation for it being known and nonexistent. The fact that it is known in the future still shows there is known knowledge about the mine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So my godhood is known and nonexistent? (I'm not a god). My third and fourth arms are known and nonexistent as well? Godzilla and Bugs Bunny are known and nonexistent as well, correct?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Your introducing different variables into the discussion... which can stray the topic... but I will respond anyways.

The godhood comment introduces religious and belief variables so I will avoid this because it can blossom so many different topics.
Godzilla and BugsBunny are known and they do exist as cartoons on television... thus known and exist. One can even visit a local store and purchase a BugsBunny.
The 3rd and 4th arm... needs more explanation. How do you know about these are arms? Are you a mechanic which works on prosthetics? Are you referring to someone who might be insane and able to see these arms?
In the case of the programmer he knows about the copper mine because he programmed the event... making the copper mine known and nonexistent.

[ March 20, 2004, 00:52: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

The only thing known and non-existant that we have here, is logic.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Zen I'm sure you've been on many forums and never thought I would have to say this to you but... please FOCUS on the topic or don't post. Avoid the flames for heavens sake !

[ March 20, 2004, 00:56: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually many believe this has happened to the current topic in light of the original question asked as well.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually in reality as physical living beings they do not exist, which is what I was referring to (but admittedly didn't make clear). If one were to actually attempt and FIND Godzilla or Bugs Bunny one would not be able to as they do not exist outside of fictional concepts. No one uses the term "unknown" to refer to Godzilla because the lizard creature is not real.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are we talking about knowledge or existance. If I am insane and see more than 2 arms that does not mean the arms suddenly "exist" in the physical term of the word any more than Bugs Bunny "exists". My point here is you seem to include things that hypothetically could come into existance at a later date, which is why I posted this.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here you seem to have changed the original spirit of the question. Of course the programmer knows about the event. The event though is known AND it exists! Then you switched to the actual copper mine. The event and the actual mine are 2 different things. The event was programmed. The actual ocurrence gives you gold and "actually happens". So before it happens, the actual mine doesn't exist.

What people are saying is that when something "doesn't exist" it is not elgible to be called "known" or "unknown". In 1960 I was not "unknown", I simply didn't exist as I wasn't born yet. Suppose someone asked these 2 questions:

Where is your actual physical being real mother right now?

Where is the actual physical being real Bugs Bunny right now?

Now it is assumed that your mother does exist but you may not know her current location and you may. In the case of Bugs Bunny (the actual physical living being) he does not exist. Never has. To say the location of Bugs Bunny is "unknown" is incorrect. The term does not apply if something cannot be known since it doesn't exist.

So in light of your Posts I am assuming you find the description of "Aschaic Record" in error since it says it finds all sites in a province, but won't find those from events, correct?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Darryl...

You are adding lots of new variables... but they do not change the facts. The copper mine remains known even tho it does not exist yet... and may never exist. Things which someone has knowledge of and could come into existence should be recognized and thus classified as known and nonexistent.

The event is known and does exist... the copper mine is known and nonexistent. The player does not have to recieve gold first... the mine could exist and indicate in the game an increase for gold income next turn. The change in the game setting for an increase of gold next turn shows the mine exists.

======
Where is your actual physical being real mother right now?

Where is the actual physical being real Bugs Bunny right now?
======

======

Game information such as an event which creates a mine can easily be proven when playing the game. The question you are asking is far different then what can be proven when playing a game. For example what happens if someones real mother is to die... now you've introduced another topic about spirtuality/religion as some would see the real mother as nonexistent and others would disagree. The statements I made are directed at the game... you are introducing so so many outside variables leaving the answers for your questions as subjective from person to person.
Lets stick with either a game example or your 3rd arm example which does not have so many extra variables.

[ March 20, 2004, 02:26: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No. None of your arguments where you continually show your near complete lack of understanding of the English language changes the facts. Something which does not exist cannot be either known or unknown.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Careful, Graeme. He'll accuse you of flaming him for stating facts obvious for all to see, just as he did when Zen and I pretty much said the same thing.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

The problem seems to be that the physical world, in which we are people playing Dominions and the game exists as a series of commands on our computers, and the world of Dominions, in which we play gods, are not being thought of as seperate. If we are thinking of ourselves as inhabitants of the game world then yes, the sites probably existed before, as mineral deposits dont frequently appear out of nowhere (though they do sometimes I suppose). Since they are simply minerals, whether or not they are truly magic and thus dectectable by acashic recodrd could be debated, but that is missing the point entirely. The point is that the world of Dominions exists only in our computers. It was programmed by other people who coded certain commands that would occasionaly 'create' sites in capital provences. If we look at the code, the site did not exist before hand. We have the knowlage that it could cerainly, but it is not coded into the game that it exists at the begginning of the game. If we classify that as knowing a non-existent object then so be it.

Thats just my thoughts in the argument, but in the end Im wondering exactly why it is even being pursued with such vigor. As I attempted to say above, it is an argument purely of point of view and semantics and, further more, it is completely irrelevnt for any reason other than pointless pontificating. Unidentified sites do not exist in your starting province at the begginning of the game. Later, if certain things happen in the coding triggering an event, a site can appear that was not there before in strictly game terms. If we think as inhabitants of the game world perhaps the site was there.

In the end it hardly seems to matter much at all...

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Well my NCAA bracket is slowly falling apart, so I might as well answer here....

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ok, fair enough. In the game the term "unknown" as I understand it seems to refer to something which is possible to be found through some conscious action by the player. The obvious example being searching for magic sites. "Unknown" sites refer to sites which are coded into the specific game being played, but are not visible to the player. Aschaic Record is a spell which changes the status of all "Unknown" sites to "known". Copper mine events (and other events) create out of thin air mines which can give the player additional benefits. In game terms, they are not "unknown" as Aschaic Record would have found them if they were. This is my understanding of game mechanics.

If this game were "The Sims" or something where magic does not reign supreme, I'd probably understand your argument better, as copper mines do not appear out of thin air in some games. In this game, many things appear out of thin air ("and suddenly a {blank} appeared in the lab") and as there is a spell which is defined as "finds ALL sites in a given province" the only conclusion is that sites given by special events weren't there if they couldn't be found by that spell.

Now NTJedi, what is it about that which isn't consistent with the game?

Darryl

Edit: changed less than and greater than symbols to brackets

[ March 20, 2004, 04:21: Message edited by: Darryl ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Topic: Do unknown sites exists in starting provinces? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Answer: If you have multiple provinces, yes. However, your capital province (the one in which your Pretender will usually start in) does not contain any unknown provinces that exist; sites may appear into existance from random events, but they did not exist in the capital before the event had occured. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/blush.gif

Opinion: This discussion has taken a turn off of the original topic numerous times, and has become a rather personal one (with the insulting and wanting to be "right"). However, I have found it interesting to read the amount of thought being put into these arguements (with a few exceptions, one of which involving indirectly {and sometimes directly} denying someone's intelligence). I believe that this discussion should end now, as the answer to the original question has been reached; the answers secondary questions indirectly presented by thos who were supposed to answer the primary question should be persued within a different discussion.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Yikes. I felt a built guilty about replying Last time, but didn't expect anything like this!

So we are abusing Shrapnel Games' hospitality here, folks. If anyone really wants to debate this further, I would suggest they take it to somewhere like alt.atheism for some real philosophical slap-downs. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

We all agree that no unknown sites exist in Capitals, so there is no need to search there. Noone is going to publically admit being wrong, here (although it is a useful to skill to cultivate, when it is true) so lets all just leave the opposition to digest our cutting arguments, shall we?

Maybe a moderator could lock the topic, or even trim it down to the first few relevant Posts?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are probably hundreds of extinct prehistoric plants which have left no trace of existence on this earth. This would be classified as unknown and nonexistent. Also because of special circumstances some prehistoric plants have been identified... and would be classified as known and nonexistent.
A futuristic fuel used for flight in the year 3850 would also be unknown and nonexistent.
The copper mine programmed to be created when an event occurs. The programmer has knowledge of this futuristic copper mine. Thus known and nonexistent for the programmer... yet unknown and nonexistent for the other gamers.

[ March 20, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

I agree that topics wandering way off course of this forum would probably have a more enjoyable time if moved to newsGroups (most internet providors give access to newsGroups, ask your support)

As to the sites thing...
I know Im jumping in late and being nitpicky BUT I believe the Devs already answered this somewhere. The game itself will not put hidden sites in a capital. Even if you capture a capital, they wont be there.

HOWEVER it is possible for hidden sites to be given to capitals by using map commands. As far as I know, no map available for download has done that but I have been playing with the idea. I would not be surprised to find out that only on the wild random-strewn maps I create would such a thing be likely. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If I do then I plan to make it part of the map description so as not to surprise anyone.

[ March 20, 2004, 17:38: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is done in Version 0.8 of my Orania Wars - Nasty Edition, that I hope to hape up for download tomorrow pending playtesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif - Well, to be more precise, there are additional fixed KNOWN sites in each capital rather than hidden sites, as fixed hidden sites benefits the human player much more than the AI.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are probably hundreds of extinct prehistoric plants which have left no trace of existence on this earth. This would be classified as unknown and nonexistent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, they would be classified as unknown only. They existed, so to say that they are non-existent is ridiculous.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, they would be classified as known and extinct.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it would be non-existent only. There is no information to determine whether it is known or not.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And until that event occurs, it does not exist. Thus there is no information about it whatsoever.

I suggest, once again, that you learn to understand English properly before claiming that you can make arguments about the semantics or words.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

"Last night I saw, upon the stair
a little man who was not there.
He wasn't there again today -
I wish that man would go away"

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

I think it's really unfair of all you guys to keep taunting NT Jedi like this. Sure, it was funny at first. But after 6 pages, doesn't anyone start to find it cruel?

The ability to distinguish between concept and instance may be fundamentally important if you're, say, a philosopher or theoretical scientist, but it's really not that important for some guy to enjoy playing some game. People can't help or change the basic level of intellect they're born with, why torment the guy about it?

Besides, my friend who's a psychiatrist told me that such a persistent inability to distinguish between concept & instance in otherwise functionally intelligent adults can be a symptom of latent mental illness, and if that's the case here it makes it doubly unfair for you all to keep poking at him like this.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually yes. It brings to mind the adage: "I would engage you in a battle of wits, save I never fight an unarmed man" - which would be both cruel and unjustified. It must be the persistent self-righteous refusal to distinguish between the general and the specific (or concept and instance), that just manages to rub the scientifically trained wrong.

I blame our education. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

....And the fact that we are a bunch of intellectual nitpickers. That goes with the territory.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I went and acquired actual proof where the phrase ‘known and nonexistent’ are being used to further prove my point. Despite all this actual physical proof I seriously believe PeterEbbesen or Graeme Dice lack the honor to apologize for being wrong and rude.
I would also like to point out that they have not given any proof except for their weak opinion.


Supreme Court Document
Municipal Research & Services Center of Washington

http://www.mrsc.org/mc/courts/suprem...58wn2d0180.htm

“1] PRINCIPAL AND AGENT - LIABILITY OF AGENT TO THIRD PERSON -CONTRACTS IN NAME OF PRINCIPAL - NONEXISTENT PRINCIPAL. Where an agent for a nonexistent principal enters into a contract in the name of such principal, and all parties to the contract know the principal to be nonexistent,……. “

Mail Tribune Online
Newspaper Publication
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2...9/edit/let.htm

“If President Bush "touted 100,000 jobs more logging on federal lands could bring to the Northwest" that are now known to be nonexistent……”


=========
edited my post so it would not take up so much space.
=========

At the start of the game the programmer would know the copper mine to be nonexistent. The copper mine however would remain unknown and nonexistent to all other players.

The prehistoric plants example is one of the best examples since during the present they are nonexistent yet depending on the specimen can be both known or unknown. The copper mine is very much the same except that it qualifies as being in the future and not the past.

[ March 21, 2004, 18:21: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

NTJedi --
Neither example you give supports your case. T'is the _nonexistence of the issue in question_ that is known, not the item itself.
For instance, with the known nonexistence of a principal case, both parties know that the principal does not exist; neither knows the principal. You're confusing objects and properties of objects.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Supreme Court Document :
KNOW THE PRINCIPAL TO BE NONEXISTENT
object: "the principal"

The object is known as nonexistent


The Magnanimous Cuckold (comedy)
Author: Fernand Crommelynck
http://newmedia.cgu.edu/stageart/holland/summc.html

Once his jealously has been aroused, Bruno, pursuing an insane logic of his own, cannot rest until he has put all doubts to an end by absolute certainty. He therefore compels the suffering Stella to sleep first with Petrus and then with all the men in the village as he pursues the phantom of an unknown and nonexistent lover.


University of Mississippi
http://home.olemiss.edu/~weiming/654p.htm

“As to the nonexistent value, it is just the negative value of unknown value, since in fact it is known to be nonexistent. The predicate expression……”

The value known to be nonexistent

The copper mine known to be nonexistent


=======

And I have yet to see any proof showing I am wrong... besides opinions.

[ March 21, 2004, 18:37: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

NTJedi --
Playwrights aren't exactly reliable citations when it comes to logic. Shall we resort to Gilbert and Sullivan for a serious discussion of piracy or Japanese history? Does Shakespeare serve as an authority on Midsummer rites and faeries? No.
As for your database example, do you know what a 'null' field in a database table refers to, and why you might have one? Have you studied relational databases, actually? Implemented one yet? If so, you might know why it has no bearing on your claims.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

The prehistoric plants example is one of the best examples since during the present they are nonexistent yet depending on the specimen can be both known or unknown. The copper mine is very much the same except that it qualifies as being in the future and not the past.


More Court Documentation:

http://www.harp.org/wheeler.txt

"..Not only is the resisting party (presumably the
patient) claiming lack of knowledge of the arbitration term, but he asks not to be prevented from litigating a consequential loss controversy that was also unknown and nonexistent at the time of contracting. Viewed in this light, the knowledge factor is ....."


http://www.bakers-legal-pages.com/cc...ions/74185.htm

As Judge Miller explained in his concurring opinion in Ex parte Carillo, 687 S.W.2d 320, 325 (Tex. Crim. App. 1985):

Parole is very much a speculative proposition. Its happening is contingent on many factors unknown and nonexistent at the time of a guilty plea.


There are hundreds of quotes using known and unknown with nonexistent.

And I have yet to see any proof showing I am wrong... besides opinions.

[ March 21, 2004, 18:48: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't apologize to idiots who refuse to admit that they are wrong.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is not regarding a physical object, and so couldn't prove your point even if the words said what you think they do. This is merely a case where you have a non-existent entity that everyone agrees is non-existent. Thus it's non-existence is known. The above is a question of whether the object is known to be non-existent. Not whether the object is non-existent or not.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the jobs do not exist, and there is information on their non-existence, so people can agree that they do not exist.

This is in complete contrast to your claim, where there is no information on whether the copper mine exists, and in fact, according to yor examples above, the only thing you could say is that it is known to be non-existent.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The copper mine does not exist until the random event causes it to exist. The programmer does not have the knowledge to tell you whether the copper mine will exist at some point in the future. Thus there is no way to say that the mine is "unknown". It simply doesn't exist.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again you are dodging the point. There is no information whatsoever about prehistoric plants that have no evidence of their existence. You are claiming that something which is _known_ to be non-existent, such as a copper mine before the event creates it, is actually unknown. You're trying to claim that adding the word unknown is useful, when it instead adds no information whatsoever.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You will let me know when court cases bear any resemblance to the existence of objects in the physical world?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again, that's an idea, not an object. Try and find some relevant examples.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There might be hundreds of quotes, but not one of them will be relevant to the question at hand. You haven't seen any "proof", because no such "proof" is needed. The answer to the question is obvious to all but your deluded mind.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Graeme Dice
besides your weak opinion what actual proof have you provided ZERO.


The prehistoric plants example is one of the best examples since during the present they are nonexistent yet depending on the specimen can be both known or unknown. The copper mine is very much the same except that it qualifies as being in the future and not the past.


Also the fact that these phrases are used in court documentation shows the phrase is correct and I am right. I have given actual proof in many different ways showing things which are nonexistent can be either known or unknown.

[ March 21, 2004, 18:54: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've provided my proof. It's called "the difference between an idea and a physical object".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Once again you are completely and utterly incorrect. The plants with no evidence that once existed are not non-existant. Their evidence is non-existant, but they are not. The evidence is an idea, it is possible to be non-existant and unknown. A physical object cannot have these characteristics, since if it is non-existant, there is no information about it. It can be unknown whether the object is non-existant or not, but that is a completely different phrase from something being "unknown and non-existant", which is a meaningless phrase.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it shows that you are not smart enough to figure out the difference between an idea and a physical object.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So ideas can be nonexistent as known or unknown... but an pretend copper mine from a computer game cannot?


Graeme Dice you still are not providing any proof... only your opinion of how you feel english should be recognized.

PROVE TO ME THAT something NON-EXISTENT cannot be known or unknown. Certainly you can find some documentation to back up your weak words.


A search on Google for "cannot be known or unknown" returns with nothing... you can guess why. Yet I have found so many different phrases on the internet using nonexistent with known and unknown.

[ March 21, 2004, 19:20: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Oh neat, a flame war, can I play too? :-) While I don't know (or care to read) where this little war started from (though I can guess from the topic), I'd like to chime in about the topic at hand.

exist: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exist

"To have actual being; be real."

know: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=know

"To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty."

There is a difference between a thing and knowledge of the thing. While common usage can cause the definitions of these two to cross, a quick check of the dictionary shows how they differ.

Finally, I think there's little point in arguing words; words are simply meant to communicate thoughts, so just agree on a meaning of the words and move on to the underlying thoughts (which are apparently lost in the 90+ Messages preceding this.).

-Jeff

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thanks for completely ignoring my arguments, which would be an implicit concession if this were a tre debate. As for your proof, there are two things. The first is that you are asking me to prove a negative. This is an impossibility and requiring someone to do so is a logical fallacy. The second is that it's your claim that it's proper use of the English language, therefore you must find the evidence to support your claim. I would also suggest that you should change yor argument style so that it does not consist of posting exactly the same argument over and over and over again. If it's not correct the first time (and it wasn't), then it won't be any more correct the fiftieth time.

As for my argument. If something does not exist, then that means that there is absolutely no way to obtain information on it. Let's use your example dealing with prehistoric plants. If there is evidence that the plants existed, then they are known to exist. If the plants existed, but there is no evidence for them, then their state of existence is unknown, not the existence of the plants themselves. The existence or non-existence of the plants is not modified by what information is available about them. If the plants did not exist, then they are non-existent. However, it is still incorrect to say that the plants themselves are unknown and non-existent. The plants are non-existent only.

This example does not map into dominions however. Here we have a copper mine which does not exist prior to the random event, and does exist after the random event. After the random event, it's presence is known, and it physically exists. Before the random event it does not physically exist, and there is no information on whether it will exist at some point in the future or not. Note that the state of "no information" is not equivalent to "unknown" it is separate state where it is impossible to make any judgements about something.

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

NTJedi, will you please stop editing your Posts after you make them?

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's just flat wrong... there are known and unknown prehistoric plants which do not exist. There is nothing in your post except for your opinions of the english language. Some are correct and some are wrong.

I only edit my Posts to correct a mistake or add an important phrase instead of creating new Posts. Update the webpage more frequently.


Once again you have no documentation for your statement. Backup YOUR STATEMENT(your words) with documentation:
"Something which does not exist cannot be either known or unknown. "

[ March 21, 2004, 19:53: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

Re: Unknown magic sites in starting provinces?
 

Graeme Dice I have searched many places on the internet yet could not find anything to backup your words.

You say it's nonexistent only but thats only your opinion. And actual information and knowledge can be obtained from prehistoric plants based on many unique findings such as impressions left in stone. This is only some of the information which helps identify the plant and thus classified as known and nonexistent.