Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is, of course, a minor point: The property in question is entirely mine, the code in question never intended for distribution. As such, any unauthorized individual found to be running it is automatically the enemy, having stolen it from me, and deserves his fate. Destruction of stolen item was deemed to be of paramount importance, and all else was deemed collateral damage. Being that the damage was inflicted upon those also complicit, I see nothing wrong with this.

Illwinter, perhaps, would not do exactly that, as the PR gained from destroying a user's computer would not really benefit them much, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they covertly gathered information for other commercial uses, or attempted to take control of your computer's resources to sell them off to others. Such behaviors ARE known to occur, and somebody pointed out, the target tends to be the average user, who will not notice the resource drain and data theft.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, perhaps they have the right to use every measure for which there is not a good reason they shouldn't. Protecting a product doesn't give carte blanche. Moreover, what the customers do have is their own computer, private information, and Internet access. Software vendors do not, I think, have the right to materially misrepresent what their software does, nor to use their customers' computers for whatever they feel like. I tend to think that if a program is going to "phone home" that it should be explained to the user what it's going to do, and the user should be allowed to refuse permission, without having to bring in their own third-party software to find out about it and stop it.

Now, what would be completely reasonable, would be to make a program which explains a "phone home" check is required to use whatever features, and then to obtain permission before doing so. This protects both the product from piracy, and the user's computer and Internet connection from unauthorized use. Of course, people can still suspect software of doing other stuff than it says it does, but generally those white hack hacker types will notice quickly if it does, and in that case the company responsible should be held accountable.

I know I won't ever buy Turbo Tax again after they included a hidden install of such stuff without telling.

I also have plenty of good faith in Illwinter, and don't think there's a real problem in this case. However in principle I think the program should explain and ask permission up front before phoning home.

PvK

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

Let me see if I understand this. I'm probably not as computer-savy as the rest of you and I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But something here doesn't add up.

If Norfleet is correct, the new patch...and I'm still quite happy with 2.06...gets in touch with either an Illwinter or Shrapnel server...looks like Illwinter from Gandalf's Posts...whether in SP or in MP mode.

Yet Kristoffer O posted:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If it's a MP CD-key check, why is it contacting another server in SP mode? Or is this a "bug?"

I for one would have nothing against a subroutine that contacted a vendor server prior to playing a MP game to verify there are independent copies of the game playing in MP mode. But...correct me if I'm wrong...it's doing it in SP mode too?

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I'm amazed that this otherwise friendly atmopshere has come down to personal attacks between posters.

Anyway, I still think that this CD check is useless.
Why?

For every major game out there you will find a download spot and the appropriate crack to make it work. By now, Dominions 2 played in a minor league, consisting of fans willing to pay money for the game.
This might have changed with increasing popularity, and I wonder how long it will take until you can find a "non Spyware" starting exe for dominions that simply skips the part where the data is send.
If you really want to play dominions 2 without buying it, this method wont stop you. It will, however, annoy those Users who bought dominions 2.

I personally dont care about this, but I can see Norfleets point to a certain degree

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I do not really have a problem with applications phoning home... Assuming I have been told about it and have accepted it. What is unacceptable to me is applications taking over my (supposedly) secure connection for their own purposes without ever alerting me to the fact.

A crack check with keys vs a known server? Fine, assuming I have been informed that it will happen.

In the long run it is possibly going to be more annoying for a few of those who have bought their games as keys are stolen/reverse-engineered and they get Banned, but for that to become a problem, it requires a lot of players playing the game in the first case [hopefully most of them paying], so from a software developers' point of view it is an acceptable loss.

[I still remember the great annoyance of being unable to play Counterstrike MP with the provided keys because they had been hacked]

Bottom line? Do not use my connection for your own purposes without telling me up front.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is heard in every such discussion. It doesnt stop it so why bother. That can be said of any law and punishment. However, stopping it isnt the complete purpose. If it was then it would be a total bummer to anyone that tried.

The effort is to make it as hard as possible for as many as possible for as long as possible. In the case of pirating its not really the pirates that are the targets. Its the good honest citizens who wouldnt stop to think of it as stealing if they could give a copy to a friend. Its referred to as "casual copiers" in the software world. Thats the target of protection schemes with real pirates being a fun side-game. Of course that has to be balanced against how much trouble it puts to the honest buyer. All such protections have some problems.

Companies FAR larger than Illwinter and Shrapnel (no offense guys) have looked at this. Not just game companies but all software companies. Business people with college degrees who work in nothing but hard numbers have set the guidelines. We should be happy that in this case its being decided by people who happen to love gaming since they obviously didnt go for the recommended extremes but preferred something more user friendly. Believe me the extremes are available without having to program them from scratch. You can buy them and add them just like the compression programs and installers they use.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Is that really your point of view?

I much, much prefer to be occasionally cheated, if it allows me to live a simpler, quieter life.

I don't drive a card, but I do ride a bike to work, occasionally. Then I have to make a choice, whether to "simply" lock my bike outside the building I work in, or take more drastic measures and take my bike to my office so I can keep an eye on it.

I would never choose to take my bike into my office, simply because it's way too much trouble. I leave it outside, with a reasonable lock on it, and if someone really wants to steal it, I lose a bike. But I believe that's acceptable risk for all the times I don't have to bother taking my bike in, with the associated trouble of not leaving mud all over the place, and so on.

Of course, if the stakes were much higher, I might get worried. But my bike isn't a very fancy one, and that's a significant part of it.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If it was "opt in" as in a button you have to push saying you agree to having it phone home before you can play a multiplayer game then it will still may noise. People will come here saying they baught a game THEN found out they have to be willing to allow this. Maybe fewer complaints, Im not sure.

[ April 08, 2004, 13:25: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There is, of course, a minor point: The property in question is entirely mine, the code in question never intended for distribution. As such, any unauthorized individual found to be running it is automatically the enemy, having stolen it from me, and deserves his fate. Destruction of stolen item was deemed to be of paramount importance, and all else was deemed collateral damage. Being that the damage was inflicted upon those also complicit, I see nothing wrong with this.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Someone stealing your stuff doesn't entitle you to steal theirs, or destroy it. This looks more and more like vengeance, and less and less like justice - and the two have nothing to do with each other.

I'm also worried about your use of the word "enemy" in this context.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wrong. Like I expected, you are continuing to ignore the fact that you were also planning to destroy the user's other files.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you wouldn't, but that's because you have no morals to speak of, and have demonstrated that your maturity level is less than that of a 15 year old.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Clearly, you don't understand the concept. This is no different from wiring your own car with explosives and setting it such that if an unauthorized person attempts to remove it from the garage, it will explode. It's your car, you can do what you please with it, and it will be entirely the fault of whoever steals it for swiping something that will bring him harm.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is an irrelevant bit of sophistry. Clearly, you don't understand the concept of deterrence and object lessons: I only had to do this ONCE, and immediately everyone who heard of it was intimidated into NEVER DOING IT AGAIN. I call this results. You may not be familiar with the background on the matter, but in the community where this occurred, the vast majority have taken my side on the issue.

Furthermore, this morality you speak of is entirely a human construct, and appears to be entirely a product of Judeo-Christianity. Being that I have never Subscribed to this, I simply don't believe in it. I have my own code, which may or may not mesh entirely with yours, and I follow it to the letter.

[ April 08, 2004, 14:21: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I am more inclined to sharing Norfleet's point(s), here, although my main concern is that there hasn't been anything in the ToS about data privacy. For all I know, Illwinter could grab my CD-key and sell it again because of a personal dislike or some strange buisiness scheme. Since this key is acquired on another way apart from the purchase registry, it's basically theirs to do with whatever they want.
At least MS and game companies have you sign these things noone ever reads through anyway. I don't remember clicking "yes" on anything like that by installing Dom2.

I like Illwinter, and I'd like to trust them, but in a world full of Microsofts and Blizzards, trust is a very hard thing to earn by any company who does undocumented things in a patch.

Send me a kevlar vest, Norfleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just so you know -- while this may be true according to the laws of your own personal morality, it's illegal according to criminal code at least within the United States and the U.K. Sadly, I can't claim any knowledge for any other countries where you might reside, so if this isn't helpful for your particular situation, my apologies. I thought it might be best to give you the heads-up in case your own Mustang was in fact wired to blow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

That said, I'm not sure that this thread is serving any productive purpose at this point. Most people disagree with the intensity of Norfleet's violent reaction. Some other forumers don't. Can't we just leave it at that?

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I read in my law text that booby-traps are illegal in the U.S. And also fatal car alarms.

The case they sited was this fellow in Chicago who had a shotgun wired to the front door so that it went off if someone kicked in his front door. It went off and killed some kid trying to rob his place and he was tried for murder.

I saw the system they have in South Africa. There is the one that shoots flames up the side of the car at the press of a footswitch. Frys the carjacker. And I think they have one with a fatal tazer also if you try to steal the car. Neat ideas and a great short term fix but their use would be on VERY ethically and morally shakey ground.

It's a pretty big debate and by no means settled. I'm sure there will be good points for either side as time goes on.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I'm not too keen about information being passed from my machine without being asked. That's a general principle. Therefore I welcome that someone points a finger to a possible problem.
The way that has been done is not of my liking, but who cares. IW has my respect, and so far my trust - I see no reason why they should harm their benefactors (customers), especially since it seems so easy to attack other pc's without needing to sell a product first..

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

Quote:

but in the community where this occurred, the vast majority have taken my side on the issue.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice community. Probably well versed in (software)piracy. (This is not an accusation.)

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:

Quote:

I have my own code, which may or may not mesh entirely with yours, and I follow it to the letter.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So if you do something that brakes with "my" code and I act accordingly, whatever I do is OK with you? Cool. Anyway, I see why you prefer playing Ermor in MP.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is a sad fact of the messed-up world we live in that laws are passed that protect criminals at the expense of honest citizens. Things like this have more or less destroyed my faith in the legal system: I no longer believe it is effective or meaningful, and as such, if you want results, you'll usually have to take it up privately. Such is life. You may disagree with this, but the next time your house is being robbed, call the police, and then order a pizza. At least you'll be well-fed by the time help arrives.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm sorry, that didn't make any sense and I fail to see the relevance. Come again?

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

I assumed that since you have your own codes which you follow and obviously respect, you 'ld not object on others doing the same (with their own codes).

To overemphasize I mean that if somebody shoots you (or a loved one) because you (or said loved one) have crossed the front lawn of somebody without his consent, you'ld still be a happy camper. Clear?

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

Illwinter has been following this thread but they are headed out of town and wont be back till about Monday. The impression I get is that the reaction to this has been kindof a surprise. It is a fairly common practice now and considered not as effective but nicer to the Users than the various other schemes available.

Although I think that most of the biggies that do this have a page full of text you have to read and agree to (full of too much legal junk for anyone to bother reading) which basically ends up with "you already said it was OK".

[ April 08, 2004, 15:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which I find both surprising and not surprising. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OT1H, I'm not surprised, cause many programmers/software designers are clueless about security and privacy matters. Or they figure nobody will notice or care (which is part of the cluelessness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ).

OTOH, I thought the Europeans had much more enthusiastic privacy laws than we (Americans) do, so I'm surprised they would have been clueless.

I sympathize with both sides of this discussion. Illwinter doesn't want to get ripped off (and we don't want them to!). Private individuals don't want to be spied on. Coming up with things that do both is hard.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which I find both surprising and not surprising. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OT1H, I'm not surprised, cause many programmers/software designers are clueless about security and privacy matters. Or they figure nobody will notice or care (which is part of the cluelessness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wouldnt word it as clueless. Its a common enough thing and they dont strike me as people who would have been all that concerned when it was done by other programs on their machine. Unless you hang in certain newsGroups you dont tend to notice. In the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic newsgroup where Dom2 gets alot of coverage, such subjects dont get alot of discussion. Nor the rpg, action, flight-sim, war-history, etc etc.

On the other hand in the hacker Groups which I haunt then it does. Just as it does in cracker and warez Groups. Unless someone spends some time there it wouldnt seem like a major topic.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I understand hating spyware, and being concerned about it. When this was first brought up I was very interested in what Illwinters comments would be. But now that they have answered I dont consider this spyware. Every programmer would like to have the program send info home on its useage and problems (Ive been there) but I get the impression that Illwinter purposely didnt do that. All this does is a key check of its own software. I have trouble considering that to be in the Category of "spying".

[ April 08, 2004, 16:52: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is taking over the user's hardware for purposes of reporting home without the Users knowledge or consent. No matter how miniscule the amount of data sent home, that is spying.

Not malicious spying, perhaps, but spying nevertheless.

The fact that a lot of other programs also do it without notifiying the user is not an excuse.... Though it may be an explanation.

[ April 08, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: Peter Ebbesen ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It is taking over the user's hardware for purposes of reporting home without the Users knowledge or consent. No matter how miniscule the amount of data sent home, that is spying.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No I cant go with that definition. Sounds good enough but Ive never seen spyware defined that way except in some extreme Groups.

In the usenet newsGroups we usually use the definitions given by Wikipedia, or in the hacker newsGroups the definitions given in the Jargon File, as being "official" for purposes of discussion.
Here are both....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spyware
http://www.alt-hacker.org/~noadle/ja...S/spyware.html

I have checked and I see no evidence that anything is being sent which isnt already Illwinters. No snooping info.

[ April 08, 2004, 17:20: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, I phrased that badly. I didn't mean to imply that key checking was spying -- it was more a generic concern.

'Course, they also get an IP address, which may be of more concern to some people. For example, I have a vanity domain, and my Dom2 machine is in that domain. It wouldn't be hard to imagine Bad Guys (not Illwinter) could take that IP address, notice that it didn't belong to an ISP, conclude that it was private, and decide to hassle the owner listed in the whois databases, which gets them not only a name, but a mailing address and phone number. Just what spammers and marketroids want -- a real name, address, and some demographic info: plays computer games (subtype strategy), has a vanity domain; probably a geek.

But I don't usually worry about that sorta thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Keeping track of usage is another issue, at least in some contexts. My employers worry about that kind of thing, cause it could reveal information useful to our competitors. I kinda doubt I'd care, but I'm not sure.

Re: OT: SPYWARE/TROJAN and Off Topic!
 

Hi All:

Deep breaths. We aren't and Illwinter isn't spying on you. Shrapnel Games does not keep track of CD keys by individual buying the game. Hell, we sell around 25% through distribution, so we couldn't do this - at least on those 25%. Obviously some of you think we have more time on our hands than we actually do.

Shrapnel Games was unaware that this was happening, and there should be a request to connect or at least a disclaimer that this is going to happen. This will be corrected in the coming weeks. In the meantime, if it upsets you as is, don't download and install the patch. Wait until we remedy the problem.

I apologize for any inconvenience or concern this has caused. I think most of us know that Illwinter's intentions are only to protect their intellectual property rights. With popular games being priated at a rate of 5x to 10x sales volume, you can see the concern is justified.

Happy Gaming!