Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You meet vampires on the street? Gotta wonder what the hell you're doing on the street at the hours that vampires would be walking around on them, though.

I dunno if an overwhelming urge to set people who look like vampires, I.E., "Goths", is really a vampire vulnerability. If anything, it indicates you're mostly normal, perhaps with slightly pyromaniacal tendencies.

I, on the other hand, feel an urge to set people, regardless of whether they are or aren't vampires, on fire. Of course, this would be illegal and counterproductive, so I resist. I may be a homicidal pyromaniac, but I'm not stupid.

[ April 16, 2004, 18:31: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now that's just an inflammatory statement. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ April 16, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Reverend Zombie ]

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm... let me see, blood stones 20+5, but they are also pump earth magic skill. Thinking that you can easily amass huge numbers of blood slaves, i don't see where is the main difference with clams.
So BS are broken!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">To get to 200 earth stones, which is the equivalent in magical income to 100 clams, will cost you 4000 blood slaves if you don't have hammers on your forgers, or 3000 slaves if you do. The stones do produce earth gems to pay for that part, but you can't alchemize gems into blood slaves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">200 Blood Stones are better than 100 clams, just because you can get what you would get for pearls AND you can use those earth gems without changing them to pearls first. 100 Blood Stones are just as useful to nations who have mages able to use them, Earth has some nice summons, many good items and few but potent rituals. Earth Attack is amazing... Versus normal commander atleast.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So, now Mictlan and Abysia can do something about it if the clam hoarder hasn't been smart enough to put domes on his provinces. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IIRC, domes won't stop Astral Corruption.

Sadly, tons of astral gems *will* stop Astral Corruption, and it's also very expensive and a very high research level. Also, it does nothing to the clams you already have.

I still feel that if there is any problem (and not just insufficiently aggressive play against a turtle strategy), it is that water magic doesn't do enough other worthwhile things, perhaps partly because cold immunity is so common. It's easy to find other uses for astral gems, but not so easy to find other uses for water gems.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right. Won't a "rush" take out a clam-hoarder?

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Right. Won't a "rush" take out a clam-hoarder? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Firstly, there are indies to take out before you reach the hoarder.

Secondly, clams only cost gems, they can still make troops at an acceptable rate to slow you down or stop you dead.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tons of astral gems may not be available to an aspiring clam hoarder, if most of his astral gems have then gone back to water gems to make clams. As Astral Corruption is a blood spell, it uses blood slaves, which are far easier to acquire in large quantities until well into the advanced stages of clam hoarding: Getting 100+ slaves/turn by turn 15 is perfectly possible, whereas by that time, a clam hoarder is probably only barely starting to begin his hoarding.

It does, also, indirectly affect the use of clams: A clam hoarder will suddenly find his aspiring stocks of astrals greatly limited in use if any attempt to do anything with them results in the offending mage being eaten by a horror. Even if he attempts a dispel, failure results in the offender being eaten by a horror, and blood slaves are still more available than astrals. Astral Corruption is also an L7 blood spell, whereas Wish is an L9. You'll have access to Corruption before he can start wishing for doom horrors.

Of course, Graeme has a point that Mictlan and Abysia have the easiest access to this, but as Zen states, any living nation can be a blood nation. It's simply going to be a fact of life that the same countermeasures aren't equally available to everyone. That's why nations are stronger against some nations and weak against others.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Amen.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You meet vampires on the street? Gotta wonder what the hell you're doing on the street at the hours that vampires would be walking around on them, though.

I dunno if an overwhelming urge to set people who look like vampires, I.E., "Goths", is really a vampire vulnerability. If anything, it indicates you're mostly normal, perhaps with slightly pyromaniacal tendencies.

I, on the other hand, feel an urge to set people, regardless of whether they are or aren't vampires, on fire. Of course, this would be illegal and counterproductive, so I resist. I may be a homicidal pyromaniac, but I'm not stupid. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ohhhh boy......Goths???....you mean those pastey white people wearing black clothes and black lipstick were NOT blood sucking vampires????? ....Oh sh@t...must hide blow torch and stakes....ummm anybody know a good Lawyer????

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Must i always be the one that must come up with the solutions for the world's most troubling problems?

Clam of Pearls
2 Water 1 Astral
Cost 10 Water gem, 5 Pearls

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Norfleet already suggested a rise in price for clams.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Hmm didn't read the whole thread, but it has to be an increase in Astral imo. Water 3 means 20 gems which is too expensive. Any other gem cost would be just a random barrier. 5 Astral would mean that now "it takes money to make money", and would also make clams somewhat harder for the landlubber nations to forge, since mages with 2 water 1 astral would be relatively less common.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Kill one man, and you are a murderer.
Kill millions, and you are a mass-murdering psychopath.
Kill all, and you are alone.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmm... let me see, blood stones 20+5, but they are also pump earth magic skill. Thinking that you can easily amass huge numbers of blood slaves, i don't see where is the main difference with clams.
So BS are broken!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Nerf, nerf...

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

I think people who abuse clams, can abuse this poll as well. I know this mentality. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree. Someone pointed out earlier that a clam is a growing thing, so nature would not be inappropriate.

The problem with astral is that R'lyeh, the most obvious clam-hoarding candidate, has water/astral mages straight out of the box. Also, astrals are output by the clams, so the feedback loop is fed rather than inhibited.

Adding a small astral cost to clams would do little to slow down hoarding, IMHO.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Having read the arguments...

I'd have to say Norfleet has a very persuasive argument, yet I notice a problem in it.

Norfleet, you say, on the one hand, that it is appropriate to be able to give up use of a resource now in return for a greater resource later. And I agree with you. This is the concept behind investment, and it should work.

However, you also make the comment that Water gems are useful for very little besides making Clams. While I don't have the experience with the game to make this assessment (Sea King's Court seems at least decent for water gems.), I will believe your assessment.

When you take both of these statements together, though, you end up with a conundrum. If Water Gems have little use besides Clams, you're not losing anything to invest in them. IOW, you're not really losing 'present resources' to gain 'future resources', since those 'present resources' aren't useful in and of themselves.

Do you see the issue here?

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, yes I do see the issue here: The issue, however, is slightly different. It's not "Clams are overpowered", it's "water magic sucks".

Water magic needs some rituals which are actually useful. THAT is the problem. It has a number of tactically useful battlefield spells, including the most awesome ones, like Quickness....but few useful rituals.

Take, for example, Sea King's Court (which is actually a form of investment in itself, as Sea Kings produce free water gems!): It has several drawbacks, the first and foremost being that the Sea King, and his court, demands upkeep! A lot of upkeep! This, of course, greatly undermines the value of the summoning: You summon troops because you want heavy hitters and/or things that demand no upkeep, preferrably both. Sea Trolls, however, are subpar, being that their protection is poor and their raw physical might not really impressive: Their sole saving grace is the fact that they are aquatic and can invade sea provinces....and this is of absolutely no use if no water nations are present or you are mostly landlocked.

Other water summons tend to be relatively anemic at best compared to the summons of the other elements: Many are aquatic only, which tends to restrict their use to aquatic nations....who already have aquatic troops, and generally need something useful on LAND.

Water evocations, on the other hand, are also very limited: They all tend to focus on cold, and are most effective in cold provinces that, conveniently, tend to contain people that are cold immune!

Water, basically, needs more tricks. Or at least fixes so that Sea King's Courts don't demand massive chunks of your money and wind up bankrupting your empire when you try to spend your water gems there.

[ April 17, 2004, 03:30: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd certainly agree with that. It seems like IW sort of ran out of ideas by the time they got to
water magic. Another Magic Dome, another seasonal animal, another generic summons or three, several evoc spells that almost mirror a fire counterpart, ect. I think ill start another thread for water magic suggestions however rather than begin rattling them off in the middle of another topic.

[ April 17, 2004, 04:49: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

You can't "nerf" clams by improving the other water magic rituals. You'd end up having the whole path being broken and not just clams.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sort of agree with this. Are water nations underpowered because water magic sucks? Maybe I'm wrong but they seem pretty competitive. If you made water magic powerful enough to discourage clam building (and for some people that would have to be pretty damn powerful) you'd probably make the water nations too powerful.

I think clams are fine for small games and taking wish out of long games would solve a lot of the problem. Maybe adding 5 astral to the cost would be better, I'm not sure.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all?

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you'd have to make water magic more diverse or powerful, but at the same time, clams can't stay the way they are. I don't mean for anyone to nerf clams and keep water the same.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The whole path *is* broken - by being too weak. That's the whole reason you (allegedly) don't get steamrolled when you give up your water gem to make clams - there wasn't much else you could have done with it anyway, because it's so easy to field cold immune armies that shrug off almost all the water battlefield magic and Murdering Winter to boot.

If water magic becomes more useful, it's possible that the nations that use it will have to be nerfed - because they were balanced under the assumption that water magic isn't good for much. (Except T'ien Ch'i, which is weak enough already.) But if other aspects of water magic aren't improved and clams are nerfed, why bother looking for water sites at all? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you'd have to make water magic more diverse or powerful, but at the same time, clams can't stay the way they are. I don't mean for anyone to nerf clams and keep water the same.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or the water summons are ... land only, and can't be used to go into the water.

Similarly the water combat spells : Cold Bolt and Cold BLast ... can't be used underwater!

Water is weak, largely in part because it's schizophrenic - too much is either only useful on the land, or only useful in the water, and very little that's useful in the littoral. (That being where the land and sea meet - coastal waters, and land coasts.)

I don't expect this'll happen in Dom2, but for Dom3, there ought to be more attention paid to coastal territories.

For instance - no reason why giant crabs and even Krakens shouldn't be able to attack coastal provinces. "History" (as reported by Pliny the Elder, et al) is full of Krakens attacking fishing towns, harbors, etc. Many crabs are capable of coming up onto the beach and seaweed covered rocks. War-seals and walruses, maybe. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Amphibious summonings.

Likewise - water spouts, wave strikes, etc - some combat spells that could be cast in the water, and also coastal provinces. Perhaps even ones with lakes and/or rivers (again - might be something that would only happen in a Dom3).

And, just to reiterate - Ice Castles. Doesn't make sense that _Nature_ makes fortresses in the ocean, but Water doesn't, and Ice Castles (Glacial Keeps, whatever) could be both water and cold / mountain.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

I agree, overpowered.

Basically, 10 water gems equals 5 pearls, if u use alchemy to translate them for something useful (how many ice swords do you need...?)

So, for investment of 1 turn of research (as mage could be doing that instead) you get payback in 5 turns, so very little downside to making a clam, rather than translating into pearls direct. And it is easy to make it a compounding investment.

I agree that price should include 5 astral - that way, they are still useful (as a renewable source of pearls for combat mages in the field) but wouldn't make as powerfull as a banking strategy.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ditto your assessment. If making clams didn't confer such a clear-cut advantage you wouldn't see most experienced players employing them as a core part of their growth strategies. It's a blatant clue that something is unbalanced when many people employ the same single tactic, which is a clear sign of exploitation and abuse.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

I still like my idea to have clams draw on a limited worldwide supply of pearls - say one per sea province on the map. Once there are more clams than pearls, a random selection equal to the surplus of clams, don't produce pearls that turn.

PvK

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's not make clams useless, please.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem I see with this is that the hoarder would still get the lion's share of the pearls (since they'd have forged them sooner, before the limit kicked in, and would have a much greater percentage of the total), while "casual clammers" who only forge a few would get beat. So the incentive to hoard them would be diminished but still remain, while at the same time, it would be borked for the occasional clam forger. That would then lead to a "either make a whole ton of them, or don't bother to make any" type philosophy.

If there was going to be a limit on clams, I think it would be better to be per-player rather than overall. This would prevent any player from hoarding them (which is the goal, I think), while still allowing them to be used normally by the non-hoarders.

I think that having a reasonable limit on the number of clams (what that number is, is debatable, of course), combined with some improvements to the water path to add some decent rituals as an attractive alternative use of water gems, would solve the problem.

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Another interesting thing about Clams.

Can you name a Water nation that can't use Astral Pearls well?

Atlantis - Water, Astral
R'lyeh - Water, Astral
Base Pythium - Astral, Water
Mictlan - lots of stuff, Water, Astral
etc.

About the only one is Caelum, and it doesn't preclude a Pretender that can make Clams.

Part of the problem with Clams is that the output (pearls) are directly useful to those nations best able to make them. It's not just an indirect benefit.

As a counterexample, if the Clams made, say, Air gems, a lot fewer nations would profit from them. (Caelum would turn into a big winner, though.) Not suggesting a change to the product, just a look at the other influences.

To me, Astral Magic is overpowered, and Water Magic is underpowered, so it's not hard to see in the least why an item that converts Water Gems to Astral Pearls is considered overpowered.

Bayushi Tasogare

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's not make clams useless, please. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It wouldn't make them useless. They'd be exactly as useful as before... until people started over-producing them, at which point a natural limit to usefulness would be reached. Rather like real natural resources, except without an actual depletion going on.

PvK

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem I see with this is that the hoarder would still get the lion's share of the pearls (since they'd have forged them sooner, before the limit kicked in, and would have a much greater percentage of the total), while "casual clammers" who only forge a few would get beat. So the incentive to hoard them would be diminished but still remain, while at the same time, it would be borked for the occasional clam forger. That would then lead to a "either make a whole ton of them, or don't bother to make any" type philosophy.
... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A clam hoarder could get the lion's share of the pearls available, but that amount would be a fixed amount, and they would have to invest a lot more to get that edge - there would be a natural limit, meaning it would not be cost effective to make tons of clams - only to make a limited number of them, and other players have the ability to limit the rewards of the hoarder's clam investment, by making their own clams. Excessive clam hoarding would not be worth the investment. If everyone realizes that, and so makes only a few clams, stopping when they start to not always produce pearls, then casual clam makers get the same rewards as they do now. Only hoarding strategies get messed up. Seems like an interesting and self-balancing mechanic, to me.

PvK

Re: Clams overpowered?
 

Just by way of comparison, the original clam hoarding poll "results" were:


Broken! Fix them! 44% (39)
Just fine the way they are, thanks! 56% (50)