Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There has been a long debate over the issue of abandonware. (I myself actually have an old copy I purchased of MOM long ago) I make a living programming (Indusrial Automation Ladder logic PLC's) so I understand the programmers side but when a software program is no longer sold or maintained by the intellectual property owner should it be abandoned to uselesness just to preserve that property?

Let me put to you in terms how my industry deals with it. Lets say I have written a ladder logic program to operate a waste water treatment plant.
I get paid for the program and work involved. While they own the software now, they can not copy my ladder logic (ladder logic is the code format) and use it in another PLC (programmable logic controller) without my consent. Now lets go 6 years into the future. The warranty has run out, I have moved on to another job and lets say they need to upgrade there plant. Should they be allowed to make changes to my code or even use it with slight changes in a new PLC? Now personally I do not have a problem with it unnless they are somehow making money directly from my code (reselling). Recently though I have run into company's that are trying to protect this code in industrial automation much like current game and applications on PCs. Customers go bannanas though since you are hindering any future upgrades etc... It is definately an interesting debate and I think it is far from being resolved.

As for abandonware I think a similar rule should follow. If the software is completely abandoned and as long as there is not a monetary gain the programmers should be flattered that someone is trying to revive there old work. Anyway who are we kidding the fighting going on is not about protecting the programmers intellectual property, it is about protecting the publishers pocketbook (not including Shrapnel since thay seem to be a very different type of game publisher)....but that is another debate.

[ June 11, 2004, 16:32: Message edited by: Pirateiam ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Having a ball with the references to much enjoyed "classic" games.
MoM also had a unique side effect: my new "I don't play computer games"
girlfriend comes by for the first time and I bring up MoM on the screen.
"Give it a try" I tempt. Snerk...
Full 3-day weekend later she's still there (heh).
Am still married to Faelynn, so it worked pretty well.
One game that hasn't been mentioned that is in the same league for us grognards -
Fantasy General.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). And abandonware is a great concept with many pros and cons. There are at least a couple of sites making strong efforts to stay as strict as possible (unlike the "backup" sites which are just warez sites in disquise) but it is stil technically 98% illegal.

BUT this is not newsgroup so its kindof a moot point. Its owned by a game company who does not wish to appear unprofessional. It was created to support their games. That means certain limitations do apply as to what they will seem to support on their service.

[ June 12, 2004, 13:39: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

My favorite MoM rememberence:

Summon Torin, adventure with him for a while, find/forge him some good equipment. Send him in to take the castle of the Last enemy wizard by himself.

And now the most important part. When he arrives he must intone: I am the Chosen, and you have annoyed me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I love the debate and would be glad to debate it with you somewhere like one of my other homes (alt.hacker or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic or comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg newsGroups?). And abandonware is a great concept with many pros and cons. There are at least a couple of sites making strong efforts to stay as strict as possible (unlike the "backup" sites which are just warez sites in disquise) but it is stil technically 98% illegal.

BUT this is not newsgroup so its kindof a moot point. Its owned by a game company who does not wish to appear unprofessional. It was created to support their games. That means certain limitations do apply as to what they will seem to support on their service. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No problem, I understand as I have said before I am a programmer so I completely see thier side of the issue in fact I still have not completely decided on which side of the debate I am on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ( I am a fence sitter) I will discuss this no more on this forum.

On a side note I see you visit the sourceforge quite alot. I am (indirectly) involved in a few projects. In fact I am playing around with an idea starting a project using Python. I do not know this language well so I figured the best way to learn is trial by fire. (The way I have learned my other Languages) Have you ever used Python? What do you think of it?

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I wouldnt say Im a python programmer. I know enough to make changes in someone elses code. Ive done that with C, Perl, ADA, Scheme, tons of Languages but I wouldnt say Im a programmer. (cept in BASIC or shell scripts)

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I lurk on alt.hacker and other similar news Groups just to keep my eyes open. Currently with the big upsurge of concern over homeland security some of my customers (Water Treatment Plants) want to make sure thier systems are secure since some control systems are now web based so I can log on to troubleshoot problems etc... You guys on alt.hacker are kinda like anti-crackers and just people that thirst for knowledge not really a threat. By the way I love this quote can I use it -

Come here for knowledge, go there for answers. If you don't know the difference, go to AOL.

-- Gandalf Parker

Script Kiddies! LMAO

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually I lurk on alt.hacker and other similar news Groups just to keep my eyes open. Currently with the big upsurge of concern over homeland security some of my customers (Water Treatment Plants) want to make sure thier systems are secure since some control systems are now web based so I can log on to troubleshoot problems etc... You guys on alt.hacker are kinda like anti-crackers and just people that thirst for knowledge not really a threat. {/qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah its all white-hats. Almost all of them are system admins or security techs. A nice older crowd than people tend to expect (kindof like this gaming forum) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Quote:

[qb] By the way I love this quote can I use it - Come here for knowledge, go there for answers. If you don't know the difference, go to AOL.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure. I think I altered it abit later. It read "If you dont know the difference then you can just go to AOL!" which gave more of the flavor.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

*raises his hand*

I love EFS Hyperion (and hte Fading Suns RPG) to death.

However, it suffers from the same problem that MOM does: brain-dead AI. The EFS AI never launches planetary invasions or builds good units.

Fortunately, EFS has out-of-the-box multiplayer --and hot-seat.

EFS, MOM, Stars!, and Dominions 1/the 2 demo all hooked me the moment I started playing.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">EFS Hyperion mod homepage

EFS Nova mod homepage

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Thank you very much!

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I'm a programmer and I rather like Python, though I've only seriously used it for one project several years ago. It's extremely flexible about what it lets you do, and it offers strong cross-platform libraries to do all kinds of things.

It's extremely good for fast prototyping, or anything where execution speed isn't critical, but development speed is desired. The cross-platform aspect is great, too.

It was quite easy to learn and use. Also since it costs nothing, it doesn't hurt to give it a try.

PvK

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

RATS. EotFS was so recently without a publisher? Why didnt we get them signed on here?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Any others hanging out there waiting for a publisher? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ June 14, 2004, 19:25: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Hm, I was under the impression that "Stars! Supernova" had publisher problems as well. I haven't checked their site for a long, long time however. For all I know, Mare Crisium dissolved already.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Yeah but they want a publisher who will do "advances". Pay them to work on finishing it.

I do think that Stars was a wonderful game. And I would LOVE to see the new one come out, but Im not sure Id want to put MY neck out that far to see it.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The strong cross-platform libraries is what has interested me since I plan on using this ability quite liberally. I do have somewhat of a concern on execution speed. What have you experienced with execution speed. Comparable to Pascal or Perl? Do you have any references that you reccomend? My skill level I would say is moderate. I know mostly industrial automation Languages such as Ladder Logic, LISP, Pascal and Fortran. I play with C++ but I am stil self teaching myself.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

As for execution speed, there are plenty of tests out there. I random one from google is here.

As for cross-platform and as long as you plan to distribute the executables, there are lot of choices, from C/C++ (with XP libraries) to Perl, Python and Ruby. A short breakdown:

C/C++: Nothing beats these beast for availbility of libraries; relatively hard to learn; unparalleled execution speed.

Perl/Python: The two by far most popular scripting Languages. Both offer excellent XP, large libraries, slow execution speed and fast development time. Python is "stricter" and more formal than Perl; otherwise the Languages are very similar in aim&spirit, so pick the one you like the most.

Ruby: Is relatively new. If you don't care about popularity and large libraries, this may be the ticket. It looks really, really cool but I have not yet had the pleasure.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Instead of learning C or C++, I recommend stabbing yourself in the head. It will be less painful and you will probably end up with a better program. Except if you are writing specialized software like hardware device drivers or a graphics rendering engine, or if you have to maintain a program that is already written in one of these Languages, there is not any good reason to use them. They are totally obsolete.

If you do have to maintain a program already written in C or C++, see my previous advice.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If that is what you whish, here you go: Dosbox

Emulates a complete computer that is capable of running most of the older games... I'm using it for Mom, Dungeon MAster and Star Control, also the Last one got some graphical errors </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Apologies for this very late offtopic reply.

Why run DM and SC (the second one I assume) in DosBox?
In case you didn't know:

Dungeon Master - Return to Chaos

PC remake of DM and CSB with minor enhancements. Currently at Version 0.28 but it's quite stable (only had a couple crashes playing through DM). Also coming up is a map editor so there may be new dungeons to explore in the future.

The Ur-Quan Masters

Remake of Star Control 2. Version 0.3 so far and it's somewhat buggy.

[ June 15, 2004, 15:34: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is, of course, a totally false statement, but don't mind. Keep on spreading that FUD.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Nothing is ever obsolete, nothing ever completely dies. I still get requests for cobol and pascal and dbase jobs. And for cross-compatibility I prefer BASIC. Everything has its pros and cons. The best bet is to look at those in making such a decision.

-- (sig quote)
"As a system administrator Id rather hire someone who knew 3 'dead' Languages than an expert in just one."

[ June 15, 2004, 14:36: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is, of course, a totally false statement, but don't mind. Keep on spreading that FUD. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah C++ is far from obsolete. In fact I would say 90% of game developement is written in C/C++.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think I might say that for 90% of the shelfware stuff. But not game development in general. I WOULD have agreed with you before I got involved actually contacting game developers to see if they wanted a publisher. I would not have been surprised to find out that 90% were done in C++ but it hasnt seemed to be that way.

Of course thats hard to say also since so much of the game tends to include 3rd party apps and librarys, many of those are written in C++.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I'd say 90% of 'I'd says' are wrong. Including this one.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excuse me great Zen. Instead of an insulting remark why not just explain what it is written in. I was only guessing not stating it was written in C++. As Gandalf stated if you are not involved in game development the appearence seems that most are developed in C++ but now from his experience he sees it differntly. Thank you Gandalf for correcting me constructively. As for Zen: for being a moderator you seem to be quite rude sometimes. I can except being corrected but I do not need your unconstructive remarks.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">90% of all computer Users will say they are below average Users.
90% of all drivers will state that they are above average drivers.
90% of people asked will state that they never do the (illegal/immoral/improper) things that 90% of everyone else probably does do.

And Last but not least, 90% of Dominions 2 players state that they can quite anytime. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Takes a deep breath.....

Gandulf,
From your experience what Languages are developers using? I know alot of cross platforming is being done but is there one language used more than others?

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I'd say, you should read it again, it was not some sort of insult to you. It was a statement about opinion. Including the opinion of the opinion.

As a 'programmer' of anything you should know that broad generalizations should be avoided.

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say 90% is a good round number, depending on the perception of those saying anything. I'd say that Gandalf is right, 90% of the time.

It's sort of like 4 out of 5 Dentist's recommend. 4 out of 5 Swedes Recommend Dominions 2!

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No real leaders. Alot of "engines" being created which allow games to be programmed without understanding the nuts-n-bolts of the subroutines. Lots of librarys out which allow people to program the overhead in anything they want.

If anything, Id have to say that Im seeing alot of java but thats probably a wrong impression just because so many of those are "dead ends" for me. A game that sounds great then I find out that its written as a browser game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif Not very marketable.

C/C++ are probably still good recommendations for someone who wants to get into a programming "group" who wants to develop a large project. Not that its the only thing they would use but because they tend to always need a couple C'ers to maintain subroutine librarys.

There are a number of Languages where the advantage is in list handling, or fuzzy logic needed for AI. Those are becomming popular for games.

[ June 15, 2004, 16:47: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I'd say that I am 90% sure I am never saying
I'd say again on this forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd say you're right!

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

If you want to know what Languages are used, try visiting www.sourceforge.net and check what the more popular projects are using. Here's the data from the 10 most active (I just picked a metric by whim). I must admit that even I am surprised by the breath of Languages used. Assembly was a definite surprise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif If you're going by this sample, you should learn PHP and C++ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Java II
JavaScript II
PL/SQL I
ASP I
C# I
Cold Fusion I
PHP III
C++ III
C II
Assembly I
Python I

The projects were:
Gaim
Azureus - BitTorrent Client
ABC [Yet Another Bittorrent Client]
phpMyAdmin
eGroupWare: Enterprise Collaboration
PearPC
FileZilla
WinMerge
FCKeditor
Compiere ERP + CRM Business Solution

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

High-performance device drivers are written in assembler, so that should not come as a surprise. Most professional game development, as well as semi-pro (unpaid) projects, is being done in C++ and a variety of tool/library-specific scripting Languages (for graphics, sound, etc.). Some amateurs have written games using MS-VB (which you'll note is missing from the list), but that language is really not suited to the task (or any truly serious work as it generates slow, bulky progs that are hard to maintain). But it's often the only language the programmers know (or own), so they use what they have (rather than be smart and learn a more advanced and truly useful language -- like C++).

Three-quarters of the Languages Mose cites are mainly used for DB connectivity or web-related scripting. Activities that are not really relevant to discussion of what are good Languages for game-related development.

The best language for cross-platform work is Java, assuming top performance is not an issue. If performance is an issue, C++ is then your best choice.

Of course, this entire topic is as likely to provoke an argument as discussing which political party can best represent the wishes of a nation. In other words, you'd do well to do your own research rather than accept what someone else says. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Statistics *always* lie. The only question is ever: for whom/what do the results favor? Only after you can answer that question can you then have any hope to derive meaningful value from any statistics ...

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

Alot of assumptions there. As a programmer shouldnt the variables be defined first?
Games? Platforms? Cross-compatability? Programming langauge?

Based on certain pre-supposed concepts the answer can be quickly channeled into "only one obvious answer". Such as... if games refers to on-the-shelf boxed games, for computers, created by programmers who were hired to create them... If cross-compatable refers to PCs, maybe windows AND linux. If programming excludes high and low ends such as machine language, scripting Languages, development packages and engines...
then Id guess we are all on the right track for the answer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sent him a PM with the same suggestion (to avoid giving an URL for SourceForge). And I stressed to be sure and check the real traffic.

Personally I feel that site shows ALOT of whats going on in the game development world. There are many Many MANY projects there which are listed as C/C++. But looking at the projects which have actually progressed, and even completed their projects, give a very different picture. Many of the projects seem to have chosen their language of choice based on desire and possible impressions/stereotypes of what it should be done in. I sometimes think that the automatic recommend of C/C++ for learning, doing, career, has done alot toward blowing off many projects/programmers which should have started with something else and maybe moved on to C/C++ later when they really knew why and had the motivation to accomplish it

Re: OT: Flowers for the grave of MoM.
 

I think this quote from the Perl manual sums up perl, if anyone is wondering whether they should learn Perl:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not for the formally inclined http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

The statistics I presented are totally useless except for fun. And as I did not make clear, I (randomly!) took the top 10 Active projects. So the Languages a listed are REALLY used, not just be some dead projects; but as the project list shows, there is not a single game among them.

I could have taken games; In that case the stats would have been

C++/C: IIIIIII
Java: IIII
Python: I
Other: I

I've lumped C++ and C as mostly they were listed together; if not C++ was listed exclusively.

Oh yeah, I looked up what project the assembly was used for. It was a PowerPC emulator .

Please remember that all this is for fun! I'm not out to get the (insert-obscure-language-here) folks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

For the record, since the moon is ascending and the orbital is crossing Pluto and Sirius, I'm a C++ man today. I love the template meta-language. But next month, I'll love some other lanugage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Python, maybe. Or Ruby.