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Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by PDF:

But mainly, gameplay-wise, they should be meant to allow players to have a CHEAP pretender and spend points on dominion, scales and castle.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
They are meant to:
- Have low inpact on the people of their lands (low dominion).
- Less magical power than mythological beings attuned to one or two paths.
- Have great magical versatility.
- Be good researchers.

The latter two comes from cheap paths.

The usefulness of magical versatility is perhaps reduced by the low opportunity cost of site searching spells.

Additional powers are always fun. However, if made too powerful they tend to result in less variety.

Perhaps an easy solution would be to have either A.) Human pretenders give a total nationwide research bonus. B.) A Provincial Research Bonus or C.) Always count as researching even when doing other activities.

I don't see it inconcievable for mages of the highest order are constantly studying even while on the road or forging.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by SelfishGene:
... as would a 50' tall naked woman with breasts the size of cars.

Are you sure you are playing Dominions ? <hr /></blockquote>Seen the Great Mother lately? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basically imo just cut 25 points off the cost of every human pretender; i.e., the Crone should be 0. I think that would be a fine start, and other adjustments could always be made later.

[ May 05, 2004, 01:55: Message edited by: SelfishGene ]

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PDF:

But mainly, gameplay-wise, they should be meant to allow players to have a CHEAP pretender and spend points on dominion, scales and castle.

They are meant to:
- Have low inpact on the people of their lands (low dominion).
- Less magical power than mythological beings attuned to one or two paths.
- Have great magical versatility.
- Be good researchers.

The latter two comes from cheap paths.

The usefulness of magical versatility is perhaps reduced by the low opportunity cost of site searching spells.

Additional powers are always fun. However, if made too powerful they tend to result in less variety. <hr /></blockquote>No problem with your design choices (you're the Boss http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif !), so let the mages have low dominion and easy path access, as they are now.
BUT as they are now, their cost for their magical versatility is *seriously* excessive compared to the advantages you get from it : see the point cost comparison with other pretenders (and see how noone plays them in competitive MP except by "house rules").
So let's keep them mostly as they are with their weak powers BUT make them cheap(er) : base cost 0-20, 2-3 paths-1 at start. And I really think Immortality would make them more popular, because the death penalty is really a killer on RBs, and in addition they get killed so easily.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Then they will be a resonable choice for a player wanting to have a cheap pretender/high scales.

For the moment only the immobiles are OK for that(heck, with 31 points you get a quite useful Astral-5 Oracle or Blood-5 FoB with dom-5 - that's not even the base cost of a no-magic dom-1 mage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif !!)

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Here's a thought, probably too much work to implement, but a thought:

Suppose, instead of selecting a ready-made chasis, you bought individual pretender traits using design points: stats, size, advantages, disadvantages, multi-path penalty level, etcetera; then select a picture. Thus, if you wanted a VQ, you would buy posion immunity, a lifedrain attack, etherialness, immunity to cold, the undead disadvantage, flight, et cetera - all seperatly - then selected the VQ's picture from a list of available pictures (based on size?) and typed in a description for her. Special abilities (e.g., prince of death's auto skeleton summoning, VQ's auto vampire thrall summoning, extra supply, random good events, et cetera) could be included in the list of advantages. That way, rather than needing to balance packages, you only need to balance individual advantages and disadvantages by changing their price.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack Simth:
Here's a thought, probably too much work to implement, but a thought:

Suppose, instead of selecting a ready-made chasis, you bought individual pretender traits using design points...

That would be a way to redesign the game, but such systems aren't necessarily easy to balance, since combinations can be worth more than adding the points together. The enormous number of permutations would have to be considered for balance, rather than just a limited list. Not only that, but their combinations with the various nations would need to be considered too. Also, by only offering limited choices, specific dilemmas and thematic and balanced limitations can be imposed.

PvK

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by PDF:
...
BUT as they are now, their cost for their magical versatility is *seriously* excessive compared to the advantages you get from it : see the point cost comparison with other pretenders

Well you get some point savings, which can be put into 10-point new paths and added levels. I haven't tried to really analyze the balance of that, but it seems like at least you do get something different than you can get with a non-human pretender.

I assume you know that, and are saying that the points saved seem way too little compared to the practical advantages of non-humans. Particularly, for early-game expansion against strongish independents.

Quote:

(and see how noone plays them in competitive MP except by "house rules").

Well, that is an exaggeration, but I suppose you meant it that way.

Quote:

So let's keep them mostly as they are with their weak powers BUT make them cheap(er) : base cost 0-20, 2-3 paths-1 at start. And I really think Immortality would make them more popular, because the death penalty is really a killer on RBs, and in addition they get killed so easily.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
Then they will be a resonable choice for a player wanting to have a cheap pretender/high scales.
...

You "really think" all human pretenders should be immortal? I sure don't. Way too much immortality going around these days. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Of course you're right that RB's suffer an awful lot by losing scales during death, but I'd much rather see that addressed in some way besides the immortality effect, which seems awfully powerful and gamey (for one thing, it promotes "suicidal (not really)" behaviour) which isn't really thematically appropriate except for the phoenix, and sort of for the others who already have it. Instead, I'd suggest changing the power loss on death to either not apply to some pretenders at all (these humans, for example), or perhaps better, to reduce powers by a fixed and random amount per death, rather than per path. That is, dying would cause the loss of one or two points of magic power, from random paths. Pretenders without any paths left might lose an experience level on death, instead. This way, rainbows wouldn't be so greatly penalized, focussed-path pretenders would tend to lose more in terms of creation points on death, and death would still be meaningful for humans.

Also, I think probably the points should be reviewed for balance issues, perhaps reducing some human costs, and increasing some non-human costs and/or path costs.

PvK

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

Quote:

Originally posted by Zen:
Perhaps an easy solution would be to have either A.) Human pretenders give a total nationwide research bonus. B.) A Provincial Research Bonus or C.) Always count as researching even when doing other activities.

I don't see it inconcievable for mages of the highest order are constantly studying even while on the road or forging.

I rather like this idea. It seems very appropriate for, say, the Great Sage, rather than his mere "research bonus", which seems rather small relative to everything else. That way, a Rainbow pretender wouldn't have to suffer the huge opportunity costs of multipath SCs, since he could be simultaneously studying and doing things.

If others had different related abilities, you'd perhaps see more people taking them for their abilities. Given that they are fairly easily killed, and otherwise mostly useless, these abilities would have to be fairly neat anyway to compare to, say, a proper asswhailer and/or blessing effect. If the potency of the ability were then tied to the number and perhaps type of magic paths taken, you could cut down the abuse of somebody taking purely the chassis for an ability which is front-loaded into the chassis itself, and not actually building a rainbow mage out of it.

Re: Humanoid Pretenders are too expensive

I could see the Great Sage always researching while on the go, although probably at a reduced rate. That makes more sense to me than a nationwide research bonus, which would be worth a lot (think mega-magic scale, without the MR or reduced fatigue).

If pretenders could come with certain 'favorite' spells already researched, that might also be thematic.