Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IMHO you exaggerate your case. How are you getting 18+ attack and defense without equipment? How do you manage to cast invulnerability, quickness, several damage shields, and 3 elemental immunities?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">18 Attack and Defence? The VQ starts at 12, quickness give +3 att/+3 def, and the VQ racks up experience very quickly for the other +3.

Well you can't have several damage shields at once with total elemental immuntity. But she is already immune to cold and poison, so you do have room for one damage shield. (quickness),(invulnerability),(resist fire),(resist lightning), (astral shield or fire shield or soul vortex).

And you will rarely be facing an army with both fire and lightning attacks so you can switch one or both of those resist spells for a damage shield in most cases.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hehe, I am not disagreeing with you on the subject but that's a pretty dismissive thing to say. Rude, even. This 'Old Boys Club' have a public roster somewhere ?

- Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it's not meant to be dismissive. It's simply that there are some people who's skill I know, and many others who's skill I do not know. People who's skill I do not know need to make a compelling argument to convince me, which IMHO has not been done.

My main point is that I don't think a compelling argument for clam's brokeness has been made, and that I feel that the counter points have not been addressed. A secondary point is is that I'm not just relying upon my own opinion, and have considered this seriously.

[ May 04, 2004, 17:59: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

Originally posted by Kel:
Now, I can see where she might be a mediocre late game SC, due entirely due to her low(for an SC) hp. Otoh, her immortality goes some way to compensate for this.

I entirely agree.

But if VQ is the best early/mid game SC, how does she compare to other early/mid game chasses ?

I don't think she is. She can be good, but there are others at least as good.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:03: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hence my point that you are exaggerating, if only a bit.

I would point out that these things you mention are not extraordinary, but rather commonplace or even a bit weak in a combat pretender -- especially once you take equipment into account.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:07: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

Originally posted by Kristoffer O:
Yup. They also meet every third week in an old pub somewhere in Detroit to discuss how to govern the world without newbies noticing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

The club, such as it is, also gladly accepts new members. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Being involved in such debate is the general method of admitance IMHO, especially if you do a good job of pointing out how my views are mistaken and force me to reassess my opinions. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Those Jasper believes to be the best players are probably people he knows from MP games since the days of Dom1. A bit rude perhaps, but there were some remarks on the betas that were a bit rude as well.

As well as those that I have debated with, yet never played against, or who's reputations I've heard of from a reliable second hand source.

I truly was meaning to be merely frank and not rude, as I'm behind schedule on my work and don't really have time to beat around the bush. Another reason I was reticent to get into this debate.

[ May 04, 2004, 18:14: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There aren't any that are as low risk though, or that can get out the door as fast. With mistform, mirror image, quickness, ironskin, and breath of winter she can conquer any independent province I've seen regardless of strength.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hence my point that you are exaggerating, if only a bit.

I would point out that these things you mention are not extraordinary, but rather commonplace or even a bit weak in a combat pretender -- especially once you take equipment into account. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you kidding????....(beating head against wall) So let me get this straight - by say turn 12 you have a SC that has 40+HP(which is easily replenished from life drain), attack/Def of +18, flys, is poison immune, cold immune, fire or light immune,Is invulnerable, With quickness, luck, has life drain, does not fatigue, and if you actually some how kill the thing (yet to see it happen) it is back the next turn!!!!! (keeps beating head against wall) If you do not think this is possible...I am currently in s MP game fighting CatQuiet's VQ.(I had the unenviable luck of being standard Ulm and his nieghbor) I can verify that what he said is easily attainable! If a player such as CatQuiet who is very skilled with the VQ tells you it needs some balancing I would listen.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There aren't any that are as low risk though, or that can get out the door as fast. With mistform, mirror image, quickness, ironskin, and breath of winter she can conquer any independent province I've seen regardless of strength. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Isnt that true of most gods you add those to?

is everyone going to keep adding up her pluses or are there suggestions what to do about her? Make her more expensive? After all, she is still just one piece. there are alot of single pieces in the game that can kick tail but that wont win anything but a tiny game.

If the VQ is banished by priests does she still return? (maybe have been covered, sorry if I missed it being mentioned)

Isnt she susceptable to the same routing problem as other gods?

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pff. Catquiet's VQ doesn't scare me. I'm due to shortly counter it soon, and I fully intend on watching it crash and burn. Bring 'em on.

Frankly, I'm not surprised you can't kill it, if the depths of your ability involve hurling more and more troops at it. It's a strategy, and if you can't counter it, it'll eat you for lunch: A strategy that DOESN'T eat you for lunch if not countered is totally worthless! What the hell good is a strategy that doesn't even work on people who aren't prepared for it?

Besides, you're Ulm. He's Ermor. You were more or less screwed from the beginning, as Ulm is known to be weak against SG Ermor. Marignon vs. Abysia is another similar mismatch.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:12: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I am not kidding. I do not think what you have described is extraordinarily strong. Such things are also possible with other pretenders, including ones that will beat a VQ head to head.

The fact that you are losing to this strategy is not by itself enough to convince me.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:24: Message edited by: Jasper ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Pff. Catquiet's VQ doesn't scare me. I'm due to shortly counter it soon, and I fully intend on watching it crash and burn. Bring 'em on.

Frankly, I'm not surprised you can't kill it, if the depths of your ability involve hurling more and more troops at it. It's a strategy, and if you can't counter it, it'll eat you for lunch: A strategy that DOESN'T eat you for lunch if not countered is totally worthless! What the hell good is a strategy that doesn't even work on people who aren't prepared for it?

Besides, you're Ulm. He's Ermor. You were more or less screwed from the beginning, as Ulm is known to be weak against SG Ermor. Marignon vs. Abysia is another similar mismatch. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well Norfleet I will not comment on your insult since from all the other Posts I have read I know how disturbed you are and mental illnesses are not something to make fun of. Answer this simple question - What is your pretendar in this game???? Case closed

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There aren't any that are as low risk though, or that can get out the door as fast. With mistform, mirror image, quickness, ironskin, and breath of winter she can conquer any independent province I've seen regardless of strength. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Many pretenders can use these spells to conquer independent provinces. Being able to conquer an independent province a turn with your pretender is commonplace.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I am not kidding. I do not think what you have described is extraordinarily strong. Such things are also possible with other pretenders, including ones that will beat a VQ head to head.

The fact that you are losing to this strategy is not by itself enough to convince me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please list them.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, but a feudal province can cause afflictions to them, and they get more fatigued as the battle goes on.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Banishment just does damage if the MR check is failed, so it's no different than any other cause of death.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Immortals never rout in their dominion.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, this Vampire Queen is played by Ermor? No wonder it's powerfull. One of Ermor's biggest strengths is it's powerfull pretender; this is more than compensated for by it's other weaknesses. Personally, in the same situation I would be glad that he wasn't playing something else, e.g. that didn't rely upon immortality and so wasn't afraid to enter your dominion.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And why do you think I am keenly aware of exactly how to rip one apart and send it crashing to the ground in a mangled heap? Besides, I have others, like a Vanheim game where I *HAVE* in fact, been facing down a VQ much like the one you describe, and am currently kicking its *** all over the map. I'm an Allfather there.

The problem is that YOU ARE NOT TRYING! It's a very common attitude amongst players these days: When they start losing to something on a regular basis, rather than countering it, they'd rather complain about how it's so awful. Meanwhile, the rest of us have a myriad arsenal of ways to counter, and are unintimidated. This doesn't invalidate that the strategy has great deal of merit to it, but it's not unstoppable....unless you can't be bothered to try.

Frankly, as I've pointed out, a strategy that fails even when not specifically countered is absolutely crap and utterly worthless. Hell, a dozen scouts with herald lances can easily burn out a VQ...and their scripts don't run out because they have NOTHING ELSE THEY CAN CAST.

[ May 04, 2004, 19:31: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, that's enough for me. Have fun with your mud slinging guys.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And why do you think I am keenly aware of exactly how to rip one apart and send it crashing to the ground in a mangled heap? Besides, I have others, like a Vanheim game where I *HAVE* in fact, been facing down a VQ much like the one you describe, and am currently kicking its *** all over the map. I'm an Allfather there.

The problem is that YOU ARE NOT TRYING! It's a very common attitude amongst players these days: When they start losing to something on a regular basis, rather than countering it, they'd rather complain about how it's so awful. Meanwhile, the rest of us have a myriad arsenal of ways to counter, and are unintimidated. This doesn't invalidate that the strategy has great deal of merit to it, but it's not unstoppable....unless you can't be bothered to try.

Frankly, as I've pointed out, a strategy that fails even when not specifically countered is absolutely crap and utterly worthless. Hell, a dozen scouts with herald lances can easily burn out a VQ...and their scripts don't run out because they have NOTHING ELSE THEY CAN CAST. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sigh... I am trying. I spend many hours playing around with trying to come up with counters to the VQ but Alchemist Ulm sure is not on the list. I was meesing around with Ulm GC in this game and was hoping not to run into a SG Ermor. Sorry if I like to try crazy strategies not all of us are playing this to win everytime but just to have some fun....but you will never understand this.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? Please list.

Against indep strength 1? Almost all non humans.
Against indep strenth 3? Quite a few.
Against indep strength 9? 1 ( 2 if you are a water nation ).

No, really. I want to hear about all of these pretenders that can stomp indeps down flat. No, please. Oh and try to do it with something like 100 Research points please. Heck I'll give you 150.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You claim that this "myriad arsenal" exists. I've yet to see anything besides send another SC after it. Most spell based strategies are ruined by the AI after all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I wasn't aware that 120 astral pearls was "easy". And no, it's not easy even if you have that many, since they only do 12 armor piercing damage each.

[ May 04, 2004, 20:39: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<h2>be careful</h2>If you wish to continue this conversation you will need to avoid personal slanders.
http://www.techno-mage.com/~gandalf/smile/saiyan.gif

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? Please list.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, so let's assume an average, commonly favored independent setting of 6. I think 6 is a fair benchmark, because it seems to be the prevalent setting of most MP games.

Pretenders that I have found can do the job against common independents, not including Tritons and other rare flier-infested provinces, but including provinces that may contain knights) with nothing higher than L3 research, a sum, under normal research conditions, of 120 RPs, assuming that the designer of the pretender has specifically tweaked his chassis for battle, and is attempting to operate solo, or with only very limited support (no army, at most maybe an attending mage or priest who will may search or build in the province after battle):

Allfather
Carrion Dragon
Colossal Head
Ghost King
Lord of the Wild
Monolith
Mother of Tuathas
Nataraja(Arco)
Vampire Queen

These pretenders are either unlikely to suffer from afflictions, can recover from any afflictions taken, or are not greatly affected by many of the afflictions (limping Monolith).

Other pretenders that can attempt the job, as long as excessive knights are avoided, with slightly higher levels of research or items, or with more accompanying chaff, afflictions are willing to be risked, or occasional failure acceptable:

Green Dragon
Medusa
Prince of Death
Phoenix
Titan(male)
Virtue

So between first-class and second-class choices, you have a fair number of pretenders to choose from. Note that all of these assume that you have tweaked for BATTLE as a primary objective, and filling national magic gaps or attaining a useful blessing as secondary. Air blessings and nature blessings are, however, synergistic with combat prowess.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Does this mean you are going to address clam hoarding in a patch or not?

Steroids : an unfair advantage for the althetes who use them

Steroid Use : dangerously unhealthly. One shouldn't have to prevent people from doing it. (but I doubt they are going to stop unless the people in charge do something)

[ May 04, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">2x4: A common building material used in many forms of construction for various structures and items.

2x4 Use: Some people use 2x4's to hit people, preferably in the knees or back. The makers of 2x4's should implement something to stop them since they arn't going to stop themselves.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">2x4: A common building material used in many forms of construction for various structures and items.

2x4 Use: Some people use 2x4's to hit people, preferably in the knees or back. The makers of 2x4's should implement something to stop them since they arn't going to stop themselves. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Let's have a boxing match, you can use steroids, I'll bring a 2x4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

But it won't be an official match, because there are rules against both of those things in boxing. That's why it's considered a sport instead of a felony.

[ May 04, 2004, 22:28: Message edited by: Catquiet ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

I didn't know Dominions 2 was boxing. I thought it was more like a street brawl with up to 16 other people. He who lives wins.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">MWAHAHAHA! That's a good one, Zen!

*whomps Catquiet in the back of the head with a 2x4*

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree, since no point has been made.

Steroids have a useful purpose, and no-one is suggesting that we stop making them. 2x4s have a useful purpose, and no-one is suggesting that we stop making them.

Steroids may be abused to cheat at sport, and you'll get punished if you're caught doing it. 2x4s may be abused to assault people, and you'll get punished if you're caught doing it.

So what? We should continue to fight crime by all means possible, including removing the means to commit crime, where possible. Nerfing clams is possible.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

You asked for their thinking, they gave it to you. Did you want to ask a different question? Or were you just unhappy with their answer?

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

Perhaps because I live in Australia, most of the traffic here occurs while I'm asleep, and it is with some dismay that on waking I find that the thread has turned into exactly the kind of flamefest that it was not intended to be. Naive of me, perhaps.

However, the original question has been answered (thanks Kristoffer) and for anyone who hasn't seen it buried somewhere on page 3 or 4, it was that the alleged imbalance with clams may be addressed, but the VQ probably won't.

So then, the raison d'etre for this thread is no more, and if Gandalf wants to nuke it for any reason, there'll be no complaint from me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ May 05, 2004, 02:35: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

Wow, it's so heartwarming to see a dev give me a compliment. Thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Now, as to the other random comments:

Flames, nuff said. Moving on.

Regarding the early expansion advantage of the VQ, I feel that she offers the fastest and best early expansion when compared against the other advantages and disadvantages of other Pretenders and other phases of the game. As pointed out, Pretenders like the White Bull and the Shedu are just as powerful early, but they suffer from a few problems the VQ doesn't. Among them is the debility to gather afflictions (thus possibly crippling them for early-expansion purposes), and a severe lack of slots for later in the game. The VQ suffers neither of these problems. (The Shedu also suffers from enforced Astral magic.)

For me, 13 of 17 players choosing the VQ for MP games shows a clear perception of imbalance (regardless of whether that imbalance exists). If all the education on this forum does not change this fact, then it's time to collect some hard data.

For example, record the percentage of VQs being played in MP games. Then, implement methods to reduce the _perceived_ imbalance of the VQ (such as explaining to people why she's not all that). Then, take another sampling of the percentage of VQs being played, normalized for the entrance rate of players into the game. That is, if in the beginning 75% of MP players play with VQs, and after methods, you still have 75% of MP players playing with VQs, it doesn't necessarily mean that the methods aren't working. The 'VQ is God' way of thinking may simply be a mode that players go through that marks their maturity in the game. That's why you need to make sure that your numbers aren't falling prey to changes in the player base.

Now, if the %age increases even after such normalization, then it seems clear that there is an imbalance issue.

When it all comes down to it, Pretender selection shares a lot of common elements with what is termed 'the metagame' in CCG circles. Dominions II shares quite a few interesting similarities with CCGs, in that the number of options you have before play begins are large enough to create a number of different strategies, all theoretically equally viable. This would suggest that taking a similar approach to solving issues of metagame balance in CCGs might work to solve these issues in Dominions II.

Anyway, just some ideas.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Won't she have problems against those nasty tritons? And I wonder about undead indies as well.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Tritons can be a problem, the undead aren't likely to, since they have trouble getting through ironskin.

Re: Dev Thinking on Balance?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well in my defense, since it's my VQ you have killed a few times, there are many factors involved that make this a poor example in your defense of the VQ not being imbalanced. Firstly, your Allfather has at least 3 wishes into him while my VQ has 0. You have wished for power once and magic power at least twice. Secondly, he is decked out in full gear and mine was naked (except one time where she had looted an Ice Devil the turn before). Thirdly, she isn't difficult for you to kill because you control every Arch Devil, Ice Devil, Global Enchantment and probably 100 clams or so. You also have at least 3x the number of provinces I do. You have defeated my armies with your Devil SCs and most of my casters using seeking arrows and other rituals. The amazing thing is that my VQ is still able to kill your SCs with -1 in all its paths while your SCs are fully geared, high exp and in the Hall of Fame.

Using this an example of how the Allfather is as balanced as the VQ is a reeeeeeeeeeeeal stretch.

The first time my VQ met your Allfather he had already had at least 3 wishes cast on him and my VQ was naked and still won. You most likely spent more design points on your Allfather (starting astral6, high Air and other paths)than I did and it still lost to a naked VQ with just mistform, ironskin and quickness on it.


Now to respond to all the naysayers, the reason that I believe the VQ is overpowered for its cost is that it provides an immense reliability. As long as you have dominion in a province there is absolutely no risk in sending in a naked VQ to conquer it or defend it. With every other pretender except the liches and the phoenix who also share immortality, there is a *risk* of them gaining a crippling affliction *and* a risk of them dying and losing magic paths and priest's time calling them back.

I've experimented with other pretenders, but the ones that lack immortality just seem too risky to rely on to get the job done with current balance. Cyclops gets "lost his only eye" in the first turn of combat against indies, what do you do? Losing your pretender to knights early in the game is crippling unless you have a VQ (or phoenix or lich). Are you required to play Arco if you want to use a non-Immortal Pretender in the early game?

The VQ provides a more than decent combatant with VIRTUALLY NO RISK in use. It removes the luck factor that plagues any other Pretender choice. There is a risk, even if it's slight, when you send a non-immortal pretender into any province with enemy units.

What would I do as a dev? I would give all pretenders recuperation, or at least the ones that I consider to be combat pretenders. Give people a chance to keep in the game with an early affliction. Death would still be a risk, and excessive afflictions would still keep a pretender out of commission a few turns. On the other hand, as a dev if I wanted to see less people using SC pretenders, I would remove immortality from all Pretenders or change the way it works.