Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

All thoses counter against VQ is nice but, cna I ask a question :

- What did your opponent do with your counter AND his VQ ?


Wich I mean someone suggest 3 Host for angels ( i.e CONJ 7 , 150 Astral gems and 5 Astral 5 caster ).

So in front of you you will have : 15 angels, 3 archangels AND the VQ ! I guess to evaluate the value of a counter you have to think that your opponent will have the same basic gear than you. We can even suppose you develop at the same speed, research at the same speed and gems at the same speed.

So in fact we are back to the real difference: your pretender vs his VQ, your nation vs his.

I am unsure VQ is so much over/under-valuated, what I think is that examinating counters isn't really going anywhere if you keep on devicing a way to kill the VQ, or the be more precise to kill one of THE VQs, as the problem people suggest is having 3-5 VQs in the same game.

I think we need to concentrate on strategies that could win the game AND be able to counter an ethereal immortal flying opponent.

Perhaps a list of things for each nation in fact.

Also it is clear the real thing that need to be countered is the rampant temple-castle dominion crush that support the VQ and seems to render it much more powerfull...

But this answer my first question as to where was gone all the ressources you used to counter it : they were burn in castle, temple and priest...

Also the VQ being a pretender it generate his own dominion, add her a sneaking flying prophet, with some tools and I have a hard time envisioning where she will fight out of his own dominion...

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Only to the AI as a clueless newbie. I've never seen a human player attempt to use Angelic Host in such a manner, and knowing what they were like, I never attempted to pit my VQ against them, for precisely that reason. However, they are kind of a pricey, overly situational solution to the problem, and I tend to favor solutions that are either more spontaneously available, or generally applicable.

The solutions I've proposed are also often derived based on general counters to spell-buffed SCs: As such, they aren't necessarily VQ-specific.

It should also be noted that a mostly unequipped VQ is the primary target: If you're facing a heavily equipped VQ, it's losing a lot of distinction for what makes it a VQ at all, as it is no longer entirely expendable, as losing the entire suit of equipment can get expensive, and thus the VQ player will not senselessly commit a VQ to a battle doesn't expect to win. As long as you have kill teams that can pick out a VQ from most varieties of chaff and put it down with minimal losses, the VQ is no threat to you, immortality or no. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They are pricey... no way around that... and the most economically viable way to use them seems, ironically, to be spend more by summoning several Hosts... and keeping them together to increase their power.

But they're far from useless against the "non-undead"... that Awe(+4) that each angel has, is actually a pretty snazzy defense. Any normal morale unit stands a pretty high chance of not being able to attack the angel... I was suprised at how many "christmas lights" I saw in my merely basic tests.

Even with chaff issues... staking the VQ to a protective army already seems like a bit of a victory, because she no longer has the flight ability at her disposal... and thus is much more predictable. The Angelic Host caster, could similarly put chaff with his angels... though whether this would be a net gain is debatable.

To respond to your earlier point of:
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is obviously a superior way to go in many ways. However, my idea was merely catching an overconfident VQ out causing turmoil by suprise...

The reality is, that non-Ermorian VQ's (there can be only one) are what most of us "non-expert" players will be facing in the coming months... I think this thread is useful mainly in dispensing with some of the fear/awe that a VQ has started to engender.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

you know you can edit something like the mini map to put agelic hosts in a provice, set the scales, assign a VQ with your choice of eq, and then start a game over and over. it gives everything but research. Come to think of it you can assign researched spells.

Or if I really wanted alot research I think Id use the superhost switch to leave the game running in a loop while I eat lunch

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

What will happen if you attack VQ with a couple of Golems (or similar units) equipped with eye shields? If they can blind her, they can probably kill her afterwards as well. Additional benefit is that it would take VQ few turns to recover from that even though she is immportal.

Another option is to send few flying/teleporting SCs who are ready to fight right away (without wasting time on any buffs). Preferrably el-cheapo SCs.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.)

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Regarding the Angelic Hosts, in my experience, they are fairly good against undead as well as living creatures (Harbinger's AOE 5 attack in principle should work well too, but 6 units is better than 1, at least for the price difference I think, research not factored in). However, I have found them to be most vulnerable right out of summoning, as you aren't able to script or give equipment to them.

So instead of using their Flambeaus, the Angels just sit in the back casting buff/blessing spells, and some offensive spells without much success (due to long range), while her 6 Hosts engage enemy ranks. This is fine for small enemy oppositions, but when facing larger crowds, the Hosts would likely die and/or retreat, as they aren't etheral or high def/prot, thus forcing the Angel to retreat too.

However, if you summon them in nearby provinces (free from attack and preferrably with a Lab), script them and equip them if you can, before sending them to battles, then the success rate and survival rate is much improved.

Of course, if you are trying to kill a SC, you don't need much script, since the goal is to catch them before they buff up. But equipment always help a bit. Afterall, if you are already investing a hefty price of 50 Astral Pearls into the summoning, why not make them more effective, and prolong their use as you would with Bane/Wraith Lord, and other summonable mini-SCs.

From my experience, with moderate equipment (Cons 4 stuff mostly) and some buffing, a lone Angel can function like mini-SCs similar to equipped Bane Lords, and in some ways better due to her magics and flying ability.

Just some observations,

-Gateway103

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? It works even without having to actually take the capitol by storm? It's a lot easier than I thought, then, since then all you have to do is drop enough crap on the capitol to punch through any patrollers and PD.....

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

i've killed a VQ in the province outside the castle, only to fight her that same turn when my assault was resolved.

so i'm not completely sure what's up. I would have thought she always pops back, but caine seems to have experience to the contrary.

[ May 06, 2004, 03:36: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Early in the post I gave an example of fail safe unit that disposes of the VQ.

Golem with flying boots, flamnbeau, BS Helmut, red pearl, luck pend.

I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely.

What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while....

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

[quote]Originally posted by Pirateiam:

Quote:

I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely. What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just curious, how does it work out if she has cheapo equipment ? Probably use stuff that is cheap but up to the same level as golems.

- Kel

[ May 06, 2004, 04:48: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sadly this does not seem to be correct (pulls hair out) I have tested it 3 times and the VQ just materialized inside capital...no death...back to the drawing board.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

[quote]Originally posted by Kel:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Pirateiam:

Quote:

I have tested it extensively - never has lost to a VQ 1v1 - she gets nailed before she buffs. I have let her buff and it is 60% kill success rate. With VQ with misc army things change but I know I would send more the one on a strike anyways? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif 2 to trample chaff 2 to hit the queen works quit nicely. What seems interesting is that there are other successful units that work so it does not exclude nations.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Just curious, how does it work out if she has cheapo equipment ? Probably use stuff that is cheap but up to the same level as golems.

- Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The success rate goes down 1v1 to about 6 successes out of 10 but
1.) I would never use only one Golem anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

2.) The key is getting to her before she buffs and using lifeless (Golems) so the dang Life drain does not turn her into a 100+ HP Buffed VQ

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Interesting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif This could be the stake in the heart we are looking for. Kill the queen and jack the capital. Well only one way to verify....Be back in little while.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sadly this does not seem to be correct (pulls hair out) I have tested it 3 times and the VQ just materialized inside capital...no death...back to the drawing board. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Too bad. It would be indeed a good counterstrategy, all you need to do it to overcome 25 (or whatever) defense in the capital for 1 turn with few summoning spells.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Golems are VQ worse nightmare. They can be the end of her in almost any mid game if used properly. Just buff them to level 3 astral (use items or/and empowerment) and teleport them at VQ at right moment. You can do it from anywhere so if VQ player gets bold and starts attacking outside of his dominion - nail him. You can attack her almost anywhere and before she moves so VQ will never be safe anymore. Also, all her buffs are really expensive to get since they are in so many paths so it usually takes only once to kill her outside of her dominion to get rid of most of them.

Golems should be properly equipped of course (boots of flying, magical weapon, etc.).

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. In this scenario, the VQ winds up dead, even though she died in friendly dominion, loses magic paths, requires priests to call her back.

(This happened to me in AllTheNations on Mosehansen, at which point it was all downhill.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Was this in the original All the Nations game? I was playing Machaka, so it was probably me who first defeated your Vampire Queen.

In that game at least the VQ came back inside the capital fort right away. As I was storming the fort, I fought her twice. The second time was much easier as she had taken a hit from a Black bow of Botulf and was feebleminded.

My experience is a bit limited, but I will tell what did work in that battle. First, I thought Dust to Dust would be great against a VQ, but seems it is not. My witch doctors made several hits, but no damage. Either they didn't really hit (it's hard to see) or the damage is not magical so etherealness negates it.

As already said, black bow made the second fight easier - it gives no MR-roll. But what really was useful was the web spit of spider knights. A hit from the web lowers her defence to 4 and immobilizes her. And then just attacking with normal troops was quite enough. I guess a spider lord with the web spit and a black bow or something similar would be really nice against a VQ..

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

It would seem that others are correct regarding how to best use Angelic Host vs. a VQ.

Summon-drop of several hosts would only work well on a lone VQ being used offensively... which is perhaps not so difficult to deal with.

If the VQ is being used more defensively, at the lead of a strong army... an army you can match, with the exception of the VQ... then it would be semmingly best to bring a couple of hosts scripted to "attack fliers" to negate the VQ effect almost immediately... leaving your armies to fight more on even ground.

However, I imagine the VQ would bring a stable of fliers of it's own to mitigate this effect somewhat...

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

VQ does seem to still be an advantage in taking indepts early in the game. Other gods can do that also so its not that you get an unfair lead. But you worry about the damage it takes while the VQ isnt such a big worry in that area.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Wouldn't mandrogoras be a good counter. They are undead, their sleep vines ignore armor and etherealness, six attacks pro mandrogora, 4 hits would be enough to put the vq to sleep, less if she was already fatigued.

Black forest Ulm gets that Nightzehrer hero, who is a better Version of the vampire queen. Only not stealthy, but he can get an heroic ability. Make him your profet for better effect.

Pretty new at dominions, so might be wrong.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The problem with mandrogoras, is that they don't fly... so they won't be able to get to her before she buffs. Though I was recently schooled to their effectiveness against SC's in a recent MP game...

Is the sleep effect resisted with MR? If so, a fully decked out VQ should be nigh immune... and if they're not lifeless, then the old Soul Vortex + Wraith Sword would keep her pretty safe methinks.

EDIT: They are undead (duh!) so of course they're lifeless, but MR negates the sleep effect... so I dunno... if she's almost at 100 fatigue after buffing, then you might be able to get her... since Soul Vortex won't help. But I doubt it would do much against a fully equiped VQ with reinvigoration items and a sky-high MR.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know his magic paths, but VQ's really only become uber with a lot of magic... so it's unlikely that he would be quite as effective as an optimized VQ.

[ May 06, 2004, 19:43: Message edited by: AhhhFresh ]

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

An intersting issue has been brought up by archaeolept which is part of the temple/castle/VQ strat:

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So that's the question... does anybody knows what happens if:

1)VQ has just won a battle is alone in a province
2)Your mages cast Angelic Host 2-3 times on the province
3)One of her mages casts Wizard's Tower on the same province

Which happens first? Are you always going to have your Angels staring at her brand new castle walls? Or are you always going to have battle before the castle can come up? Or is it random?

Anybody in a position to test this?

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Anybody in a position to test this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Both are "spell attacks" on a province so the answer might involve the order of the nations, or maybe the game-age of the mages. So testing might have to be done with different nations.

Whats needed to test it. If I add to the Aran.map something like
#specstart 6 111 (arcos)
#startspell 6 "Angelic Host"

#specstart 10 123 (pangaea)
#god 10 "Vampire Queen"
#dominionstr 10 10
#startspell 10 "Wizards Tower"

WOuld that be enough to test it? Id probably have to give Arcos a god with clams or an extra site that generates pearles

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

I just made a very interesting discovery:

The absolute best counter for a VQ I've found so far appears to be....vampires. Ordinary vampires. They'll destroy even fully-equipped VQs, even when they strike after the mirror images are up.

Why?

Because it seems that even if they miss, even if they fail to do any damage, as evidenced by the fact that mirror images don't collapse, fatigue is inflicted! As a result, in the matter of a round or two, the VQ will surpass 100 fatigue and pass out, totally useless. I just found this out as a result of trying to use my newly-equipped pretender to mop up a pesky vampire count attack....and was very surprised to see this happen.

An extension of this theory would suggest that any attack which inflicts fatigue damage behaves likewise. This could be why Zen has consistently hinted at the great effectiveness of Mandragorae against any SC. Ghosts should definitely exhibit a similar behavior.

[ May 07, 2004, 00:18: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow, thats kindof funny. I wont slap myself for not trying it because even now it just doesnt seem like a reasonable thing to have tried.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Yeah, I kinda discovered this by accident also.

But vampires are probably perfect for the job: They fly, so they can strike instantly. They're undead and immune to cold and poison, just as the queen herself is, so none of the damage shields that the queen could use, if she Lasts that long, will affect them: Breath of Winter is useless. Soul Vortex is useless. Fire Shield doesn't do enough damage to stop the vampires from regenerating it back. Astral Shield will only slow the effect down.

What's more, if you are counterattacking with the vampires on YOUR dominion, YOU RISK NOTHING!

Of course, for a non-blood nation, vampires may be difficult to access, but surprisingly, you don't need very many. I was sunk by a mere 17 vampires, managing to slay only a dismal 4. That amounts to less than 3 castings of Blood Rite, a sum of a mere 78 blood slaves.

Even if you don't want to go the blood route, anything similar will do: Ghosts, for instance, can accomplish the same effect, although you will not be able to fly-attack....unless you use Mass Flight. Mandragorae could probably do the job, but their sleep vines are slightly different from the Life Drain attack shared by Ghosts and Vampires, so they may not produce the same result....but they're much cheaper and more expendable.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">According to the turn sequence in the manual, all rituals are cast in random order. The devs have also stated that globals are all resolved simultaneously.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Funny, I've discovered similar bug yesterday myslef in one of my MP games.

Remeber one of IDs, the fighter who come with hellsword? Hellsword drain hitpoints and fatique. So I've eqiped my Stormqueen to deal with that ID raider. When they come to blows ID won by turn 8, to my huge surprise. He won beause despite the fact that he couldn't land one blow on my StormQueen, prtected by 9 mirror immages, the fatique was still drain every time he swing his sword.

I think it is pretty nasty bug, if it applies to any lifedrain-type attack vs Mirroimmaged target.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's been that way for a while, whether or not it's a bug or just 'one of those things' could be up in the air. Especially considering how hard it would be to hit someone with say 9 Mirror Images and 30 Defense before they killed you and your entire army that there is no counter for.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

Just for your own testing purposes, try taking a Golem or any other Lifeless unit (Golem is easiest) and putting some air on it and look at the results, I think you'll be surprised.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Are you sure your StormQueen wasn't simply fatiguing herself a lot? Hellsword, Wraith Blade, Bloodthorn(?) shouldn't be able to drain fatigue unless they hit the opponent.

But if you had your StormQueen in high armor, casting spells, she might might herself out by turn 8.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well if you look at the start of this post you will see my Flying Golem tests. I have tested it extensively and have found quite a bit of success so far.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I was about to PM you sbout that since I saw your God get killed in our game. So Ulm Blackforest could be quite a headache for any VQ.

Re: VQ Counters - NO Debates
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh yes, I know. But I mean if you want to look at different fatigue and reasons for/why/how they happen. Try using something with Sleep Vines, Life Drain, and some other things on things that are Lifeless and see what works.