Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

I really can barely think of how to respond. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

how does winning against a vampire queen imply balance? Vampire queens could be unbalanced (though the real interest/concern to me has to do w/ the full combo strat, not the VQ especially) and yet still be posssible to beat.

unless you take unbalanced as synonymous w/ "impossible to defeat"??? which would be a severe error in semantics.

edit: ++lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

thanks for the dictionary defintion and all, but
are you saying that the VQ is balanced because you can use her as a weight? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

seriously, i think most people here are capable of looking up a word in a dictionary, but in the context of this game, what do you take "balance" as meaning?

[ May 07, 2004, 08:40: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maybe you are confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use".

Meaning; as possible to defeat a VQ consistantly (and repeatedly, because of her immortality as well as a few other pretenders out there, which you get to) with the same amount of effort that it would take to defeat any other For Combat pretender with the same points used to create, items used to equip, research researched to script.

The fact that you have to beat it repeatedly is only a minor factor if the rate of attrition of defeating it is greater than the cost.

Edit: Added "For Combat", so the "What about a Great Sage, huh, Mr. Smartguy?" rebuttle doesn't surface.

[ May 07, 2004, 08:49: Message edited by: Zen ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">how so?

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

There is a whole other thread detailing it. If you wern't able to pick up any of those specific strategies, options, both listed and from your own personal experience, there is no way I'm going to be able to pummel it into your comprehension.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

again, lol. i wasn't looking for a rehash of possible anti-VQ strategies. I don't really care about that anyways. the "how so" was directly in relation to the quote above it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

ie. how do you get that I may be

"confusing "Possible" with "As easily done as fighting any other Pretender of comparable point usage and use""?

where does that come from in what i said? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'd probably take the Vanheim Allfather, then. In single combat, assuming both are battle-tweaked, he's a superior fighter: His paths are cheaper, he shares many of the benefits, he is NOT as susceptible to the rush assault due to his starting mirror images, which in conjunction with his higher air ranks, provide him with a good stalling tactic, and because he is glamoured, he always operates under cover of strategic unaccountability if he goes for more than one turn without being sighted in battle.

Furthermore, Vanheim, as a nation able to perform blood sacrifices, can push dominion with enough force to roll back enemy dominion, has stealthy preachers, and as an air nation, is well equipped to counter SG Ermor's ethereal hordes, as Wrathful Sky is your friend here.

However, in practice, since I am also evil, my evil twin would see that I am a kindred spirit, and we would kill everyone else first.

Then I would let him win. I've always wanted to see the entire world destroyed. It's been a childhood dream of mine since I was a young boy. If it was within his power to grant me this wish, I would do everything within my power to make it happen.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wait, Caelum's in the game? And Ermor?

You have the Hall of Fame all wrong, then.

It SHOULD look more like this:
Name.........Nation........Kills........Exp
Hooshang.....Caelum..........781.........65
Kavay....... Caelum..........699.........45
Frenay.......Caelum..........678.........46
Kavata.......Caelum..........521.........42
Lady Dark....Ermor...........150.........89
Buffy........Man.............102.........40

You obviously have not seen how quickly High Seraphs casting Wrathful Skies rack up the wanton and indiscriminate carnage that quicky eclipse even the VQs, most of which earn their kills during early expansion....and the sheer level of indiscriminate carnage that results when such spells are cast against Ermor is simply enormous. I've ended games with the entire HoF taken up by living and dead Seraphim with thousands of kills apiece.

The fact of the matter is that the hall of Fame is NOT always taken up by VQs: VQs, for all of their abilities, are actually poor killers: Their attack rarely kills their opponent in a single hit, they don't have many of them, and they tend to terrorize the indies off the field.

In fact, that's what most of their kills are, miserable indies. The only time they get human kills is when a human player is unlucky, stupid, or intentionally baiting, and throws an army into the path of a VQ.

The rest of the time, far more carnage is dished out, nearly all of it against actual opponents, by mages casting mass destruction spells.

[ May 07, 2004, 09:07: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because if you are not confusing them, then why would the VQ be 'unbalanced'?

If you can make a Pretender that costs the same amount of points do what the VQ can do (though it may do it differently based on it and the VQ's inherent abilities) then either A.) That Pretender design is unbalanced (too) or B.) The VQ is not unbalanced because this other is not unbalanced.

If there are 2-4 other Pretenders, with the same possibility as that one Pretender then either all of those other Pretenders are unbalanced and need adjusted, or the VQ is in the upper tier of the balance triangle.

So, what I'm not seeing is: Either you do know that there are Pretenders that you can build that do exactly that, though perhaps in a different way. Or you do not know this. If you do know this (assuming) then the reason you feel the VQ is unbalanced is not because of it's inherent abilities or cost/use ratio, but because of it's popularity and ease of use. The fact that it's the same unit that can be mimiced across a swath of nations.

And if that is the case it is not a balanced decision, but one that is goaded by popularity and misinformation.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't care about designed and equipped. stop thinking about game situations and just look at the facts people.


Vampire Queen

Flying, Erthreal, Stealth, Lifedrain, Immortality, Ally Summoning, Cold Resistance, Poison Resistance and Regeneration. 2 paths, one at level two. 110 points for the chassis.

Is the Nataraja a better chassis than the VQ? It's got four arms. This is better than immortality and the rest of the VQ's toys? Of course not. That's why it costs LESS than the VQ. Look at the ones that cost more. Is the Cyclops more or less attractive to you than a VQ?

Please stop with the amount you have to spend to get it to be a SC. This is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest. This is why different pretenders cost different prices. This is why the Allfather is 125 points and not zero.

So please, again. Give me ten pretender chassis that are better than the VQ. Explain the logic that dictates that a Titan or Shedu should cost more than a VQ. You cannot because it does not exist. Either a dozen or more pretenders are overpriced, or a few are underpriced. However you wish to define the situation, it exists and should be fixed.

Regardless of how you fix the problem, it's there. If you wish to solve it by reducing the prices of 25 pretenders or raising the price of one is irrelevant.

Perhaps you are all correct, and it's simply 90% of the field that is priced incorrectly. While you are correct that the ZERO point Nataraja is also good VALUE, and the 50 point Carrion Dragon is also good VALUE, you ignore that there are dozens of other chassis that are nearly worthless when a few are clearly more attractive to use.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

> What is relevant is that the unit BEFORE modifications is superior to the rest.<

I disagree.

There can be a chassis that is worthless raw, which costs 100 points. If the intended way to use that chassis is to place another 100 points into it, shouldn't you compare the "cooked" Version of the chassis to other cooked Versions?

"Enchantress costs quite a few points, and is rubbish - she doesn't even have any magic paths, is weak small and human. A 0 point Manticore beats her every time" is a comparison of raw chassis, and is patently stupid.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This thread deals with SC's. Failing to understand that is patently stupid.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

A 'cheap' variant is an unequipped water2 earth2 death2 VQ. I did some test where I scripted her to quickness-resist fire-iron skin- breath of winter-earth might-attack rear. research needed: ench1, alt3

fire9 + astral9 flaggelants: they win without the resist fire but with it the vq clean house.

50 crossbows set to attack flyers with flaming arrows: instant death without fire resist. with fire resist they still hurt since the flaming arrows bypass etherealness. need to return a few times to kill all, or bring fodder.

50 crossbows withough flaming arrows: vq cleans them out

50 guardians - clean house
26 air9 blessed black templars - dead horses

air9 titan on aim-Thunderstrike-Thunderstrike-lightning bolt-lightning bolt. VQ is unconcious after the second big boom.

air9 titan on attack closest- dead titan.

So.. for 230 points (less than a fire9bless)
You can kill any conventional army in your dominion at no risk.
Later on your enemies will have counters like lots of flyers, air magic (can be countered with a resist ring) or massive xbows + flaming arrows (shortbows probably dont work), but untill then you are invulnerable.

The combination of
1) kills almost any conventional army.
2) immortal
is bad.. but path cost of 80 would probably hinder the player's scales enough to balance it.

I think an allfather, wyrm or carrion dragon would have a decent risk of getting a few afflictions or deaths during these tests.

Ermorian 1000-point Versions, or late-game wished vqs are not really relevant to the issue of balancing it with other pretenders.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While immortality unto itself may be broken, an even less costly solution might just to have the VQ cost 150 points like the rest of the supposed super chassis. Combine that with a path cost adjustment to say... 50 and I'm perfectly happy with the way the VQ functions. Immortality IMHO is a seperate issue. The combination of traits she has is simply worth a lot more than 110 points.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree. As the raw VQ chassis is not an SC my point about having to compare cooked chassis rather than raw ones is strengthened by this.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

Mivayan - Good testing. Kudos.

For 230 points you get a fairly scary army killer after 1 + 3 levels of research. How does she perform right at the start of the game?

I suspect that better early-expansion can be bought for 230 points, and you can probably buy better late-game power for the price.

I could be wrong. But if she is only great mid-game then I don't see it as a problem.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Also, add to #1 and #2 that the vampire is ridiculously easy to give invulnerability to all elements. Big bonus in the late game.

And one note: Carrion dragon doesn't get afflictions easily. More importantly, it doesn't care very much if it does - a temporary inconvenience, but even with, say, feebleminding, it can switch forms and sneak about until the hangover goes away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Great set of tests though.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What you list there is pretty standard for any magic powered SC... ie researching Alteration 3 and Enchantment 1. And that can be achieved in 5-7 turns depending on whether your SC needs anything forged, so I wouldn't call it "mid game".

230 points is not very much to invest in an SC.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, and flagellants are cheap. Losing an army here and there isn't even a crippling loss, if you can strike him in more than one place at a time...trivial for a flagellant swarm strategy. Plus you stand a very good chance of killing your target anyway! No VQ would DARE try this outside of her dominion, so you're not at real risk here. And you really don't explain why this wouldn't be the problem when you're using crappy, disposable troops against any kind of tweaked SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think this sounds like fairly decisive ownage here: You have the right tool for the right job, and it shows. Having to "return a few times" is not of very much use if you're not in your dominion, and if you can't drive them off in one pass, you've just lost a castle. Returning won't help you, as you'll find the crossbowmen camping out in your castle, and dismantling your dominion.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Surprise. Missile weapons are not terribly useful against normal targets. Crossbowmans are cheap anyway.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Okay, you're throwing ordinary units at an SC with no attempt to negate its strengths. Big surprise. You'd lose the same army to any standard SC as well: Bane Lords, Ice Devils, all of them would hand you your *** there. An Air-9 blessing is a useful defense against an SC, it's a field-support blessing that allows you to combine sacred tankers with crossbows (such as FLAMING crossbows) with impunity.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">See? That's using your strengths against their weaknesses. Plus he's not even a battle chassis: He's a blesser. And he still wins! The primary function of an A9 Titan is to dole out an air bless....not to go whailing on people. Admittedly, he does this rather well as a secondary function, but this is still SECONDARY.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, yeah, if the Titan fights *STUPID* and uses none of the things you paid for, what did you expect?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You yourself have demonstrated that it fails to kill many "conventional" armies. Flaming crossbows, F9/S9 blessed flagellants, all are fairly conventional armies. Fire-9 valkyries would work very well, too, but you didn't mention these. Fire-9 ANYTHINGs, really, work fairly well. How about fire-9 temple guards? Can't even freeze them out with BoW, they're cold immune. Fire-9 woodsmen? Ouchie. Hell, a VQ can't even take down Nature-9 woodsmen reliably, because she just can't kill fast enough to wipe them out by the time the battle expires.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sure, maybe. But the ability to throw yourself at a stupid risk and merely be annoyed by getting killed is still a loss. And the Wyrm isn't even a true battle chassis. If he's a no-magic Wyrm, he loses nothing by dying. It's not really fair to compare a no-magic expendable chassis with a tweaked SC of any class.

The Allfather is not as inherently susceptible to flying dogpiles due to his instant mirror image distraction. You also won't be facing any flaming valkyries anytime soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Carrion Dragon? I've had to actually face this before: The Carrion Dragon ate all the flagellants for lunch without even blinking. They couldn't even touch him. He was, admittedly, finally brought down by point-blank crossbowing, but only because the crossbowmen had been clever enough to actually walk up point-blank to it....and this would have been entirely negated by a simple air shield and/or mirror images. Carrion Dragons are nasty, nasty cookies. And a tweaked CD will eat a VQ for lunch. Your arguments here have not exactly demonstrated the compelling omnipotence of a VQ against conventional armies. You haven't even really demonstrated how this is doing something other SCs can't do.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

The VQ is just a tool used...
Ermor is obviously a huge reason as well being in the top_3 strongest... if not the strongest. Ermor is so strong none of the fellow gamers I play with use Ermor. The second reason being it's one of the few opponents the AI can play during a multiplayer game for providing a great challenge.

Also the other players should make better alliances during multiplayer games against Norfleet . Diplomacy is huge during multiplayer games and can easily tip the scales between even the most expert player.

In my multiplayer games if one person begins taking the lead other players join together to bring him down.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nice testing. Thank you. Thats very much what was needed.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And a real suggestion too. Excellent. But keep in mind that as SC's go she also comes with some "balancing" flaws. Low hitpoints, attack, and defense are hefty penalties. Im not sure if a path cost would answer all of the complaints about her. Plus its effect would be felt most by the nations she should thematically be available to.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. But they come with their own advantages which would make them prime choices for anything other than an Immortal Kombat game. Wyrm can give a water advantage, AllFather an early "checkerboard" advantage with his ocean-going army, and Carrion Dragon can give a speed boost by being able to summon Carrion Lords early in the game. Other than Wyrm I dont think Ive chosen the others for their combat abilitys.

Just being the number one if all the gods were doing an arena shouldnt be enough to earn a nerf. And nerfing to match gods who have other areas of effectivness makes a person wonder what the next target of nerfing would be.

How about if bless had a more regular death type effect on her? Instead of returning her to her castle, it kills her to where she has to be prayed back.

[ May 07, 2004, 12:46: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is off topic, but has anyone ever tried Vengeance of the Dead on people that have kill Ratings like that? I try to spam it on any pretenders I see in the hall of fame, and its gotten me a few VQs as well.. MR might block it, though, since it doesnt always work, but I'm not sure if it just says "they managed to resist it" if MR stopped it, or if they won the battle - which is obviously not likely after 700 or so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is one reason I would love to see Hall of Fame heroes appear in scout reports like pretenders do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ May 08, 2004, 05:53: Message edited by: Slygar ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is off topic, but has anyone ever tried Vengeance of the Dead on people that have kill Ratings like that? I try to spam it on any pretenders I see in the hall of fame, and its gotten me a few VQs as well.. MR might block it, though, since it doesnt always work, but I'm not sure if it just says "they managed to resist it" if MR stopped it, or if they won the battle - which is obviously not likely after 700 or so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

This is one reason I would love to see Hall of Fame heroes appear in scout reports like pretenders do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">IIRC Vengeance of the Dead does not work on undead beings.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

Vengeance of the Dead doesn't work on undead beings, and tends to bounce off of anything that qualifies as an SC pretender chassis, due to the combination of god-class MR and magic-resistance items.

This is probably why the potentially game-crashing nature of Vengeance of the Dead isn't mentioned much: According to my measurements, the game battlefield isn't really physically capable of holding more than about 3000 units, as the dimensions of the battlefield, if jampacked, wouldn't support more than that for any given side....

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">My reasoning was that if the alternative starts winning provinces on turn 1, and you wait till turn 5 (your earliest estimate) your alternative would have 5 more provinces than you by then, and
1+2+3+4+5 = 15 turns more province income ASSUMING that he doesn't reinvest that income to capture more provinces. So if there is such an alternative, the VQ suggested can hardly be considered a good "early expansion" pretender.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

One of the problems with VQs, and equipped SCs in general, is that it's too easy to become invulnerable to all elements (counting poison as an "element" because it's a form of attack that you can easily become immune to). All but the most powerful items (artifacts and maybe the dragon scale armors) should give no more than 50-75% reduction, and anything that gives multiple resistances should give no more than 25%, or 50% if that's ALL it does.

It's ok to make it possible for someone to become immune to *one* element. But becoming immune to *all* elements makes you immune to the vast majority of attack spells, all at once, and that's what leads to the unkillable monsters we have now.

Of course, the fact that a lot of SCs are undead and thus naturally immune to cold and poison and fatigue doesn't help. Lesser undead counterbalance this by being vulnerable to banishment, but it's pretty trivial to make an SC essentially immune to banishment. A Greater Banishment with high precision, AOE 1 square, and a high magic penetration bonus (or no MR save) would help here.

IMO, most corporeal undead should have no more than 50% cold and 75% poison resistance inherently. Maybe 100% poison for things with no flesh at all (longdeads). But hardly anything with a body should be completely immune to cold. Although it may not affect them as much as it would a living being, it still can damage them.

I think this would help Water Magic, too - currently it's hampered partly by the fact that a lot of things are immune to most of its battlefield spells, in addition to its other weaknesses.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

SCs are a huge problem imho. They are killing machines. Killing whole armies with 1 SC makes no sense imho.

Oh and I totally agree with Chris Byler.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undead are immune to cold because they don't suffer from the effects associated with it, such as frostbite and hypothermia. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to cold, then neither should Jotuns, or Caelumians. Since cold attacks in the game tend to be around the level of "normal" cold, as opposed to liquid nitrogen cold, it's reasonable to expect them to be unaffected.

They're immune to poison because they have no metabolism and thus are not affected by poisoning of any kind. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to poison, then nothing ELSE would be immune to poison either.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's called "Solar Rays", Chief. Dust to Dust is a little less precise, but also has the same effect: Both deal unresistable damage to undeads. Wither Bones does this over an area.

[ May 10, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undead are immune to cold because they don't suffer from the effects associated with it, such as frostbite and hypothermia. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to cold, then neither should Jotuns, or Caelumians. Since cold attacks in the game tend to be around the level of "normal" cold, as opposed to liquid nitrogen cold, it's reasonable to expect them to be unaffected.

They're immune to poison because they have no metabolism and thus are not affected by poisoning of any kind. If you were to say they shouldn't be immune to poison, then nothing ELSE would be immune to poison either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Undead aren't all the same. It's one thing to say that longdead, or even soulless/corpse men, have no metabolism; but vampires clearly must have some sort of metabolism or they couldn't drink blood and derive benefit from doing so. And the spell that creates ghouls is called Arouse Hunger - a pretty strong implication that ghouls have a metabolism, even if it is an unnatural one.

I also don't think it's unreasonable for Jotun or Caelum cold resistance to be reduced to 50%. From a balance perspective, both of those nations are very strong already, and frankly, water magic is weak even against things that aren't immune to it. And from a realism perspective - no corporeal, non-magic being should be 100% immune to cold to begin with. <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's called "Solar Rays", Chief. Dust to Dust is a little less precise, but also has the same effect: Both deal unresistable damage to undeads. Wither Bones does this over an area. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">All the spells you mention (and a few you didn't, such as Holy Pyre) are *magic* spells: they require research and specific paths of magic. I propose a *priest* spell that is useful against small numbers of high MR "elite" undeads - or, if enough priests are casting it, against undead supercombatants not supported by an army.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe the spells you are looking for are "Smite Demon", and "Smite". Smite Demon is a P3 spell which is supposed to be more effective against single targets. Smite is a P5 spell that causes even more damage, but is not really specific to undead. Both of these spells suffer from the MR-negates problem, however, so without either massed fire and/or penetration aids, they will tend to bounce off of pretender-grade MR.

Of course, most of the nations with powerful priests have priests that are also mages: Theurgs, Inquisitors, Witch Hunters, etc. Other nations have mages that are perfectly adept at doing the job without a priest spell anyway: Sauromancers, Deep Seers, etc.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

Send me a .trn file containing a battle replay where an equipped VQ - even without wishes - is taken down by any of those spells - or even all of them at once - and I'll shut up.

Otherwise, I'll continue to maintain that those are inadequate counters to high-MR 0-fatigue SCs (particularly, but not necessarily limited to, pretenders) - either too low precision or dependent on MR penetration.

We aren't even bothering to list the elemental attack spells, because they're even less effective. If your SC gets taken down by *those* you didn't equip it properly. Although they *could* work - if the game was modified so that you couldn't gain more than 100% resistance from items and spells combined, thus creatures that are inherently weak to an element would still take SOME damage from it no matter how much magical protection they tried to amass. Make that change and the VQ fire weakness 50% (if she isn't already), and Incinerate would be able to deal with her, if you had enough mages casting it to overcome her regeneration and life drain. (An undead or lifeless screen would negate the life drain for as long as it Lasted.)

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

How about a modification where you cant get 100% in all of them at the same time?

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've crashed VQs on Solar Rays before. Of course, now I avoid the damn thing like the plague, so this doesn't happen much anymore. Plus I password all my files.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suppose I could make a .map file that equips a VQ and grants those spells as starters to some nation but then you could also.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Good point. I think it might be a good idea to give vampires at least a minimal (1?) fatigue rating. One of the main things letting them wipe out whole armies single-handedly is that fighting doesn't wear them out at all.

PvK

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

I really cool thematic thing would be not to restore HPs to a vampire at the end of battle (a la Disease). Then vampires would have to drink blood in battle to restore their life.

EDIT: Come to think of it, the exact Disease effect, including the loss of 1 HP per turn, would be even more thematic. Vampires are then compelled to feed occasionally, or they will die.

[ May 17, 2004, 03:00: Message edited by: Zapmeister ]

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

But the Disease affliction also has more effects than just the not healing and lose 1-hp part. That is, diseased units will continue to accumulate other afflications. So very soon, your army of vamps will be crippled, blind, and useless regardless of its etheral, low-encumberance, and flying abilities.

-Gateway103

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This would not work, as regeneration causes you to heal at the end of a turn regardless of your disease status.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

I don't think Vampires actually die from not having enough blood to drink, they just become increasingly lazy and go to sleep for hundreds of years until somebody disturbs them and becomes a snack.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

So disease and recuperation and life drain, but not regeneration, and encumbrance = 1, would do the trick?

What happens when someone with immortality dies of disease in their own dominion?

PvK

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

Disease doesn't affect any undead, though, as it stands now. That is, it shows up but they don't lose hp from it. If you changed that general rule, it would have other effects (like restricting C'tis Miasma's choice of viable pretenders).

- Kel

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Most of vampire literature stays that Vampire must drink blood regularly to maintain their semi-life or they grow increasengly weak and eventually die while suffering terribly from hunger.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Recuperation instead of regeneration makes a lot of sense to me, thematically. Keeping life drain and substituting recuperation for regeneration models how I think of the way vamps are supposed to work, but other's mileage may vary.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I suppose I could make a .map file that equips a VQ and grants those spells as starters to some nation but then you could also. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I could - but the VQ would win, which is my point. I want to see a replay of the VQ *losing* to these spells, not walking through them to slaughter 2000 gold of mages singlehandedly. If there is no such replay - then these spells DON'T WORK ON VQs, and Norfleet shouldn't bring them up in this discussion.

Although I agree that vampires in general should be nerfed, I don't think adding Disease to vampires would work - disease has other side effects. Also, I don't think the gradual loss of HP is appropriate - each turn is a month, I think it's reasonable that they find someone to eat even if they don't participate in any battles.

But changing them to base fatigue 1 (not 0), recuperation (instead of regeneration) and possibly adding Does Not Heal would make them more appropriate to most vampire literature *and* more balanced. It's not like Does Not Heal is *that* big a handicap to an immortal life draining unit - unless it is frequently forced to fight lifeless units, especially outside friendly dominion. Which *should* be tough for vampires. Base fatigue 1 isn't going to have much if any effect if they are actually feeding, but it will make them no longer immune to mind bLasts, stun effects and a few other things, and long battles against hundreds of soulless *will* eventually tire them. The VQ (and Vampire Lord, and Sanguine Count) would also be affected by armor encumbrance, which discourages vampires from fighting in heavy armor (really inappropriate to *any* vampire literature or movies I've ever seen).

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Neither these two units, nor normal vampires, are particularly overpowered, so there's no real reason that they need to be changed at all.

Re: Is the REAL problem with VQs...Norfleet?
 

http://www.kludgemush.com/~norfleet/dom2/ctis.trn

There's your turn of a fully equipped VQ being shot down by a group of 4 Sauromancers spamming drain life, guarded by a turn's worth of Reanimation from said Sauromancers. One of them dies, but this can hardly be called more than a token effort to kill one: The VQ is allowed to fully buff itself, and it still goes down.

Not so difficult, is it?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Uh, Chief? Vampires are NOT immune to mind bLasts and stun effects. Stunning them with lightning, if they aren't wearing immunity to it, is actually a very effective way to mow down a VQ. SquidbLasting works just fine, until they start wearing tons of +MR.

[ May 19, 2004, 18:40: Message edited by: Norfleet ]