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Re: Play The World
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All I did was go through and nostart the provinces that were stuck on islands and other such locations, same as the < 4 neighbors pass on Cradle. There is, in fact, nothing suspicious about this, since I PUBLICLY DECLARED THIS. If I was really going to cheat, why would I bother telling you about it? Be serious here. The alternative being that some poor chump would surely wind up with an unplayable start, and in a game of this size, we'd be calling mulligans forever. |
Re: Play The World
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The story is simple: Having created an alias a long time ago, I was recently drawn there by the declaration of a new game for "expert" players. So I entered it using that preexisting board alias. Stormbind, of course, would like to believe I was pumping him for information, unknown to him, on the chat....as if I'd actually care that much about his secret plans. If he had bothered to tell me anything substantive, I'd have even offered him suggestions on how to improve his play. Now, of course, he'd like to throw a hissy-fit over the matter, as if I was somehow wrong to enter a game under an alias. He calls this circumstances surrounding it "unethical", although nowhere in my ethical code does is this behavior mentioned as such. |
Re: Play The World
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If Norfleet has been cheating, and that can be confirmed from more than one source, then I may feel obliged to drop out myself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I stand by my words, and there are plenty of witnesses for it. I even have logs to prove it. However I didn't say he was cheating (he could not possible do it since he was not directly in our game, his "Apprentice", as he called him, was). I said his behavior was highly unethical and that he lied and admited it later. It's not the same as cheating though. But my respect for him as a player evaporated, so the cheationg would not surprise me as well. However as I said I have no idea if he actually cheated with map in your game or not. I can provide all details completed with logs if you really like but frankly I would not rather dive into that sad mess again. We had 2 pages of discussion in our game related to it already on GoneGold MP forum, "Ice and Fire" thread. |
Re: Play The World
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1) You were in a game with Stormbinder in which you used some name "A" 2) You conversed about that game with Stormbinder using a different name "B" 3) Stormbinder had no way of knowing A=B and you would have been aware of that, and could easily have rectified it ("I'm Norfleet, BTW") The claim that you would have helped him if he'd said anything substantive is irrelevant, because: 1) It is only your judgement at this point that nothing substantive was in fact said. 2) Even if you had offered help which may or may not have helped him, you would still have had knowledge which you could not avoid (even if subconsciously) considering in your game plans. All of this could simply have been avoided by a declaration of your identity. Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood the scenario. Quote:
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Re: Play The World
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The claim that you would have helped him if he'd said anything substantive is irrelevant, because: Quote:
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It is also irrelevant to the matter at hand, namely, the accusations that I have somehow modified the map to my advantage: Why would I bother doing that, then make any mention that the capability for even doing such a thing exists? More importantly, Graeme wrote a post which immediately followed this declaration, which strongly suggests he was aware of this from the start: He joined anyway, and now suddenly, at the Last minute, he's decided to complain about it. If I didn't know him better, I'd say he was deliberately trying to trash the start of the game. But surely that isn't the case, and this is simply a misunderstanding that will be cleared up shortly and we can get the game rolling. Otherwise, we may have to restart the game sign-up to drop him, rather than having a run-away AI. |
Re: Play The World
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The story is simple: Having created an alias a long time ago, I was recently drawn there by the declaration of a new game for "expert" players. So I entered it using that preexisting board alias. Stormbind, of course, would like to believe I was pumping him for information, unknown to him, on the chat....as if I'd actually care that much about his secret plans. If he had bothered to tell me anything substantive, I'd have even offered him suggestions on how to improve his play. Now, of course, he'd like to throw a hissy-fit over the matter, as if I was somehow wrong to enter a game under an alias. He calls this circumstances surrounding it "unethical", although nowhere in my ethical code does is this behavior mentioned as such. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon8.gif You mean you actually ARE Pakhar Njal?!?!? Blah!!! What a pitiful jerk. Sorry, if this is true he _was_ cheating, big way. Than _everything_ he have been telling us was a lie and than it is much worse than we (all other players in Ice and Fire) have suspected. See, as a Norfleet he was constantly soliciting information from each of Pkahar Njar's (his alias in our game) neigbors with questions such as "So what are you going to do about Caelum?" (Caelum was Pakhar's nation). "How is your war against Caelum going?" , "How are you going to attack Caelum now?". (all these are exact quotes) He asked it of each and every of three Caelum's neigbors, _every_ time one of us loged on IRC channel. When we have finally cornered Pakhar about the fact that he plays exactly as Norfleet and asked him if he knows this person (same primitive, abusing and boring tatic of uber 500 points VQ and cheap castles/temples in every province), he grudgingly admited that he is Norfleet's "Apprentice". Than Norfleet said that all this time (it was the end game by than) he kept pumping us for inforamtion just out of curiosity "how well his apprentice Pakhar Jarl is doing" and wasn't giving PJ any advice on how to play this game. However at the end (according to Norfleet's story, which tunred out to be another lie) it was admited by Norfleet/PN that PN was in fact constantly sending to Norfleet sceenshots and Norfleet was giving him advice how to play the game, while continuing soliciting sensitive information from all 3 Caelum's neigbors about thier plans regarding Caelum. (that was the core of "unethical" behavior I was refering to) However now he is saying that he was in fact Pakhar Jarl all along, despite constantly denying it up until now. Some people suspected that much at the end of our game, when Norfleet started triping over himself with his lies ( "I was giving constant advice", "no, I didn't give him any advice, it was a test for my apprentice", etc.) But I didn't think that PJ and norfleet are actually the same since Pakhar showed himself to be pretty mediocore player, making many stupid mistakes, and I though that Norfleet, despite all his faults, is at least an expert player. Blah! What I don't understand is that why are you now openly admiting that everything you been telling us was a lie?!? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif You have to be either extremely stupid, or you are lying again. For those who wants to read entire story, here is the thread for our game that was finished (or rather abandoned because of Norfleet/Pakhar) a week or two ago. In fact, I strongly encourage everybody who had any dealing with Norfleet in the past or in the present to go and read that thread right now (pages 3 and 4), and see for yourself. http://www.gonegold.com/ubb/ultimate...1;t=002168;p=3 It looks that Norfleet have turned out to be complete peace of sh_it. I swear in all my years of MP gaming I never meet someone so rotten and dishonorable. [ May 24, 2004, 08:12: Message edited by: Stormbinder ] |
Re: Play The World
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Given your constant, tiresome snivelling, you'll understand if I do not care to play with you or speak to you further. I suspect the feeling is mutual, which I am sure suits us both just fine. Therefore, I have no further interest in discussing this, or really, any other matter, with you. I wash my hands of this affair. You are not in this game at all. If this entire debacle causes a restart, you are not really invited to join, although if you joined, I would grudgingly tolerate you simply because I don't care to reject anyone...provided you keep your whining to yourself. Make no mistake about it, though: I do not like you. |
Re: Play The World
Norfleet, perhaps you are suffering from some delusion here. You do reilize that you have completely destroyed yourself whatever little was left of your reputation as both Dom2 player and honest person, right???
I don't think anybody who will read this thread (or "Ice and Fire" thread on GoneGold MP forum) will want to play with you in the future. [ May 24, 2004, 08:22: Message edited by: Stormbinder ] |
Re: Play The World
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Is it so ABSOLUTELY UNREASONABLE to think I might actually want to try and see if my supposed reputation actually makes such a difference, by joining anonymously for a bit? No, I think not. More importantly, we're becoming increasingly off-topic, not that you were ever a part of this topic. If you want to continue this entire line of inquiry, kindly take it to another thread that I can duly ignore. ---------------------------------------------- Therefore, let us now put the real issue on the table: In the event that Graeme declines to be reasonable about this, and spoils the game by pulling out suddenly, do we: A. Bot him and continue, knowing that somebody who started next to him now has a grouchy neighbor... B. Attempt to restart the game without him. C. Cancel the game. What do the ACTUAL PLAYERS of the game, of which Stormbind is not one, think we should do? |
Re: Play The World
>You can believe that. I don't think that people will find it so unreasonable if I felt like joining a game undercover for once.<
Not at all. What I think people find unreasonable is joining a game, and asking other players about their strategies with a different name, without stating that you are actually playing the game. I think people probably find that sickening. |
Re: Play The World
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Re: Play The World
I vote restart.
[ May 24, 2004, 11:53: Message edited by: Reverend Zombie ] |
Re: Play The World
I vote to restart.
[ May 24, 2004, 11:58: Message edited by: Vynd ] |
Re: Play The World
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Besides which "honor" and the kind of behaviour that apparently went on in this sad episode are mutually exclusive. Perhaps the other players continued to talk to Norfleet because they assumed that there was no way anyone would ask for information in the manner that he did, when they were actually playing in the game. Having read the GoneGold thread, I think I'm with Zap. PLEASE explain all this, Norfleet. I'd much rather think everyone was a nice person... |
Re: Play The World
Oh dear....lol.
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But going back to what seems to be the problem here. I havn't read the ice and fire, but let me see if i can get this straight (correct me, succinctly, if i'm wrong): Norfleet is accused (a big word) of the dastardly crimes of: - Deceiving others about his true identity * I can see nothing wrong with that - missdirection and missinformation are perfectly valid things to do in war. That's what spies, illusions, bluffs, etc are all for. Norfleet's just taken it slightly further. - Lieing * Now there's a serious crime. I only try to lie when things are serious and I have no other choice. But if someone chooses to lie in a game - so what? What does it matter? But the biggest allegation of all (correct me if i'm wrong) is of: - Breaking delusions as to the infalliability and unsheakable integrity of human nature. * Well, this kind of thing hurts. You start to lose faith in your own core values. It's not nice. But surely, it's much better that it happens in a game, than in a serious situation? Maybe Norfleet lied. Ok. Maybe he decieved you. Fine. Maybe he even broke your faith in something you held dear. If that's the case, nourish your hatred of him. Plan your vengeance. Keep it close to your heart. Try out new strategies. When you are ready - you can face him. For the best effect, as Cainenhill suggested - face him 1 vs 1, so that the true power and satisfaction of sweet revenge can be brought to bear, that of having beaten a rascal honourably. But as Norfleet said about 5 times - there is a game to be played! I don't know where Graeme's accusations came from, though as far as I'm concerned Norfleet doesn't need to cheat to win a game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . There is a big, big difference between cheating and behaving like a rascal. If the sole premise of not wanting to play this game is that: 1)Norfleet said he would modify the map (bearing in mind he could have modified it to his own advantage without saying anything) 2)Norfleet acted in a manner you found distastefull in a different game. Then I do not believe there is valid reason for believing that Norfleet would stoop to cheating (which has a very closed definition. Things like lieing, deception, etc do not come into it). Now, if no one has any further objections, could we please get this matter out of the way and play - we've been waiting for 2 weeks just to start this game, god knows how long it's going to take to finish it... [ May 24, 2004, 14:50: Message edited by: Firebreath ] |
Re: Play The World
I do not want a restart. I do not see what that
would change except waste some more time. I do no believe that Norfleet has done more than disable a few starting locations, and even if he had given himself every single spell and gem at the start, I would still rather play the game than not. I cannot understand why it matters. I do not get 1cm shorter every time I fail to win a game of Dominions II. As for him playing under a different name, and talking with other people about the game, I find it slightly off-taste, but more because of what it says about his need to hear about himself, than because of an in-game advantage. So, lets get on with it? |
Re: Play The World
While I understand the sentiments of the people who want to just get on with this game already, I think you're overlooking a serious problem: Graeme, I think Zapmeister, and quite possibly others, don't want to play anymore. Better to restart without them, I think, than continue as is, have them drop out, and end up with lots of AI players right out of the gate.
Nor do I think it is particularly unreasonable of people to decide they don't want to play with Norfleet after hearing about this other incident. He lied. He behaved unsportingly. He abused other people's trust. People have every right to be upset about that sort of behavior and decide not to associate with someone who engages in it. Really, it's only to be expected. And even for folks like me who had no stake in this Fire and Ice game, it makes it rather difficult to trust the man. |
Re: Play The World
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Re: Play The World
I'd rather get on with the game. I have no problem with this incident as it doesn't show cheating. Underhanded trickery maybe, but not cheating. If you don't want your plans getting out, don't tell anyone. This is the internet where everyone is anonymous. I'm not saying you deserved it, but in the land of anonymity, I tend to keep my secrets to myself. I also understand that certain people may not want to play with someone who would do this, that is fine too. I have no problem with that. But the fact is, he didn't cheat. Until I hear of actual cheating or discover through my own interaction with Norfleet that he is a cheater, then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt as far as manipulating the map. I won't trust him in game, but then again I don't really trust anyone. Once again, I say play on.
Vig |
Re: Play The World
I vote for keeping the game going. Do you guys really think that Norfleet cheated? I am sure that he can just let someone whom everyone else trusts just look at his game.
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Re: Play The World
If deliberately misleading players as to your identity, and using their trust to gain information to use against them in a game you are actually playing in isn't cheating...
...you live in a different world to mine. Here's some steroids, Good luck in Athens. |
Re: Play The World
I am glad that people see the Norfleet's behavior for what it worth.
Norfleet's excuses are laughable and he knows it of course. The issue is not that he had joined the game under alias and spoiled it, despite the fact that homerules were clearly created to prevent abusive norfleet's style of gameplay. It is not even than he had been deceived people on IRC channel throughout the game by listening to their plans against him without telling them so. But the fact that he continuously and deliberately pumped his in-game neighbors for information about their plans and wars against his nation, while hiding ubder alias, is truly, as Tris said, sickable. Than, when he was finally forced to "admit" that Pakhar is "Apprentice" of Norfleet, but claimed that Norfleet didn't give Pakhar any advice, he said on our Ice and Fire thread as a Pakhar: Quote:
I find that this [Norflett's] behavior is perfectly normal from him. He tends to be a rather keen spectator on events like this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif Keen observer, huh? Very keen indeed. And cheating and dishonorable as well. P.S. to Cainhill: As for my rudeness to Norfleet, you know very well that I was always very polite to him on the IRC channel throughout our game. It's only on the Last day of "Ice and Fire" when he "admited" that he was deceiving us all along by telling that he didn't know Pakhar (he even asked us "Who is playing Caelum?" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif ), when in fact he was his "apprentice" and he "admited "that he was giving continious advice to Pakhar thorughout the game, while asking as about our plans about his nations, than I've snaped and said to him "STFU" when he kept interrupiting our discussion what to do in the game that he, as both Norfleet and Pakhar, have spoiled. Of course I was very pissed off at him at that point. Who wouldn't be?!? What looks strange to me is that you have accursed me several times pub;ickly that it was my fault that I've admited "Norfleet's ringer" in our game. Now you are saying than you have know that Pkahar was Norfleet all along. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif I wished you would kept your facts straight instead of for some reason trying to protect Norfleet. [ May 24, 2004, 20:39: Message edited by: Stormbinder ] |
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Frankly, if someone who supposedly isn't in a game I'm in starts asking questions about what I'm doing in the game, and what my plans are, I'm not going to be telling them. All this is made more irritating by the nattering that was done on IRC about how they were setting up a fun game, no quitters, no players like Norfleet (given that they don't think playing against his strategy is much fun - I agree, but that's beside the point). I (and I believe archaeolept) was recruited with the belief that all players were personally recommended by someone - no unknowns, no ringers, no newbies. But then they went and let in an unknown. Who, from what I understand, was just tickled to know that they didn't want him in the game, but hadn't bothered to tell him, and hadn't had the cojones to out and out say, "No Vampire Queens, no Norfleeting (my name for his tactic of a temple and castle on EVERY province), no Norfleet." I was in that game, and was somewhat disappointed. By the game; by Norfleet, a little bit; but more, by some of the other people in the game and setting it up. Again - he didn't cheat. If anything I'd say the concerted, out of game underhanded diplomacy to ally against one player / nation was closer to cheating, and was certainly unsporting. |
Re: Play The World
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Now I am going to "accurse" you of an intentional attempt to misrepresent the facts. Anyone who wants to can look on the GoneGold forum and check the homerules for the game. Let me reread it.... Ah yes. #4, "Special Home Rule" - maximum of 10 clams to avoid clam hoarding. That's it. Hmmm. "Also, no Ermor in this game". And #1, "No newbies". Let me see - just which home rule was created to prevent Norfleet's style of play? Which? Do tell. Or, to quote yourself - STFU. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Quote:
Protect Norfleet? I was irritated with him - even if the Secret Treehouse Club hasn't explicitly written on the door of the treehouse, "No Norfleet / No Gurlz Allowed", why would an adult go out of his way to sneak in in disguise just to pee on the pillows? But tell me - when it's your pool party, and one of the guests you invited, pees in the pool, is it my job to clean it up? I don't think so. And again - tell us which of those bloody home rules you _JUST_ said were designed to prevent Norfleeting, was meant to prevent Norfleeting? Nothing about VQs. Nothing about Norfleet. Nothing about castle-spamming. Which was it, again? |
Re: Play The World
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I don't know why you are trying to distort the events and protect Norfleet Cainhill. Especially considering the fact that you were the only one who knew about Norfleet but didn't bother to tell us about than, instead accursing me of letting "Norfleet's ringer", as you put it, into our game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif In any case please stop, I am not interested in arguing with you. I encourage anyody who have any doubts about Norfleet's role in that game to fo to "Fire and Ice thread" and see for himself the true story, as well as all players reactions as the game was developing. Norfleet's (Pakhar's) words and actions speak for itself. |
Re: Play The World
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</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Nope. Ethics are generally a culturally agreed upon thing. Maybe an illustration : If I swore I wouldn't reveal what someone was about to tell me, and they revealed that they were killing and eating children, honor would dictate that I kept their confidence, while ethics would insist that I told the authorities to save children. Option 3, satisfying both my honor and my ethics : kill the SOB without telling anyone what he'd been doing. Frankly, I didn't think that what Norfleet revealed to me warranted killing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Quote:
On the other paw, I can see why some people wouldn't want to be in games involving Norfleet, or some of the other people involved in the game, to include myself. |
Re: Play The World
Cain, you seem to have strange agenda here, and I am not interested in continuing discussion. You said that you have noticed that somebody is "pissing in the pool" but choose not to tell anybody? Fine, that's your choice. You want to protect Norfleet? Fine.
As for homerules - they were clearly inperfect, as I admited myself, and you know it. But nevertheless, it was not me who said that Pakhar spoiled the game, violating it in spirit if not in letter. Go to the "Ice and Fire" game and re-read it if your memory is failing you. A lot of different people said the same thing before me, and I agree with them. One more time - stop distorting events please, this mess is ugly enough without your efforts. I will refrain from any future arguments with you. As I said - everybody go to "Fire and Ice" game thread and see the truth for yourslef if you have any doubts. After you'll be finished reading it, you'll not have any doubts left on what was going on in that game. The link is http://www.gonegold.com/ubb/ultimate...1;t=002168;p=3 (pages 3 and 4). |
Re: Play The World
Could all people from that other game please go away and spam another forum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
It does not matter that your arguments are self righteous, nor that you believe them to be true, nor, indeed, that others might believe them to be true - their place is not here. Thankyou. It seems that the best thing is now to restart. That those players who want to play join. But lets do this quickly, eh. No more beating about the bush, or waiting for laggards, or arguing about who's right when everyone's wrong except me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif Oh, and finally. Just relax people. Believe or not as you will, but this is just a game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif |
Re: Play The World
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But I'm still waiting for you to explain the "home rules clearly designed to prevent Norfleet's style of play", which you just insisted today. |
Re: Play The World
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But yeh - several of us who aren't even in the "Play the World" game have probably said more than enough, myself and Stormbinder first and foremost. |
Re: Play The World
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My appologies to the players of your game, it was not my original intention to highjack the discussion. As you have witnessed yourself tt happened because Norfleet have publicly admitted here that he was Pakhar Njal all along and everything that he have been telling us in my Fire and Ice game was a lie. (I still can't believe he was stupid enough to did it and even brag here about it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif ) Nevertheless, this was my Last post in your thread, I've said what I had to say. Regards, Stormbinder [ May 24, 2004, 22:09: Message edited by: Stormbinder ] |
Re: Play The World
Nothing about ethics says it has to be culturally agreed on.
"Option 3, satisfying both my honor and my ethics" see? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif Anyway, my ethics tell me that I shouldn't really have made this post, given that people have already asked us to stop posting off topic in this thread. Apologies to genuine thread-Users, and I promise not to post again, no matter how much I want to... |
Re: Play The World
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However - given the early mutterings that Pakhar Njal was really Norfleet, and Stormbinder's repeatedly voiced suspicions of this, what does it tell you of certain people's intelligence and common sense, that they _kept_ talking to Norfleet about their strategies in this game??? (Note also that I'm uncertain whether Norfleet was "pumping" them for information - what I heard on the IRC channel sounded more like people eagerly, even desperately, seeking to talk with him for advice.) And yes, I was paying attention, because.... I knew from fairly early on that Norfleet was Pakhar Njal. Didn't really matter to me because I was on the opposite corner from him. Didn't say anything because he'd told this to me in confidence - and honor, keeping my word, has always been more important to me than ethics. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Personally, I get sick of the instant, constant, bleating coalitions of the frightened clamoring for alliances against Ermor, and also against Norfleet and other "Norfleeting" players. Maybe it's just me - but the day I beat someone, say Norfleet, I want it to be because of my strategies and skill, not because I joined a lynch mob to bring his downfall. Quote:
Either he wasn't mediocre, or possibly my suspicions about these things were correct - the desperate need for alliance wasn't so much because it was needed to defeat PN, but because it would afford you the opportunity to grow to immense size, with gifts of magic gems and items, other people wasting their resources casting remote attack spells on someone they weren't in contact with, etc. And - he made mistakes? You were talking about how you were able to take some of his provinces. About how you killed one of his Air Queens, I think. I never realized that not making mistakes would prevent a person from ever having one of their provinces taken or commanders killed. You have to concentrate your forces and attempt to pick your battles, sometimes try to anticipate where the enemy will attack. Sometimes you anticipate correctly. Sometimes, you would have been better off calling the Psychic Friends hotline. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif And finally, in closing - you do realize how amusing your incessant "STFU" statements to Norfleet were? "You aren't in that game - STFU!" Even when he commented to you, several times, "Cainehill knew something you didn't", you ignored him and again, "STFU". Hilarious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (STFU is an acronym for "Shut the F--- Up", which some might consider a crude and rude thing to say to someone else, even when cloaked in a well known acronym.) |
Re: Play The World
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"So, what do you plan to do about Caelum?" ? Quote:
I've just read the Gone Gold material and have to say that I'm appalled. I was originally prepared to give you the benefit of my doubt, but not any more. Quote:
Nor is it the issue, and I think you know that. It is now clear to me that in this "Fire and Ice" game, you perpetrated a deception outside the context of diplomacy. It was a deception that could have given you an advantage in the game - whether it actually did deliver any advantage is irrelevant. In other words, you cheated. Please do not join any games I start in the future. |
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