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- Dominions 2: The Ascension Wars (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=55)

- - Players needed for an experimental game (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=19514)

Tuna-Fish

July 8th, 2004 12:25 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Sounds fun, I'm in.

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

I'll try to clarify a bit. Of cource, what i say might all be fubar, but I'll just take the chance

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?

correct, as far as i undrestand it

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?

...no
Let's say your first choise was caelum, and your victim's first choise was abysia. Your victim plays with the abysia that was created by you, and you will play with the caelum that was created by your assasin. Thus everyone knows everything about their victim and nothing about their assasin.

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?

Well, knowing exactly the design of the guy you are supposed to take out would be very helpful, but it's not really mandatory

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

No, because you will play the nation you wanted. Simply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I am slow today
Np

tinkthank

July 8th, 2004 12:58 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by Tuna-Fish:
Sounds fun, I'm in.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

I'll try to clarify a bit. Of cource, what i say might all be fubar, but I'll just take the chance

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?

correct, as far as i undrestand it

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?

...no
Let's say your first choise was caelum, and your victim's first choise was abysia. Your victim plays with the abysia that was created by you, and you will play with the caelum that was created by your assasin. Thus everyone knows everything about their victim and nothing about their assasin.

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?

Well, knowing exactly the design of the guy you are supposed to take out would be very helpful, but it's not really mandatory

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

No, because you will play the nation you wanted. Simply http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Thanks for clarifying, sorry if I am slow today
Np

<hr /></blockquote>Ah, thanks! How dim of me... Well, I *hope* that my victim has similar tastes as I do...!

tinkthank

July 8th, 2004 03:16 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Well I suppose I could try to dig my mail out of the "sent" folder, that should work -- thanks!

I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well -- should still be very interesting!
look forward to receiving a turn soon...!

Nagot Gick Fel

July 8th, 2004 03:55 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I'm afraid I don't understand at all, sorry.

Sorry for not being clear enough... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Quote:

1. Do you mean by "assassin" that my job will be to eliminate a specific opponent nation (either by out-preaching or by conquering all provinces)?

Sort of - your job will be to make sure this nation is eliminated, however how this is carried out has no effect on the scores. If it's eliminated because of another nation, you'll still get full points.

Quote:

2. Is this correct: If my first choice was, say, Caelum, and I get "assigned" my first choice by the algorithm you mentioned in your first post, then my job will be to assassinate Caelum and I will do this by playing the nation which the Caelum player originally wanted to play?
I don't understand which race it is I will be playing and against whom.

Maybe an example will help:

Assume there are 4 players, A, B, C and D, and preference lists are shortened to 4 entries for clarity.

A's preferences are:
1 - Ulm
2 - Man
3 - Caelum
4 - Ermor

B's prefs:
1 - Caelum
2 - Ermor
3 - Man
4 - Abysia

C's prefs:
1 - Man
2 - Abysia
3 - Caelum
4 - Ulm

D's prefs:
1 - Man
2 - Caelum
3 - Ulm
4 - Ermor

Let's call A's Ulm design Ulm-A, and so on.

Now let's see which nations will be played. A will get Ulm and B will get Caelum, since noone else chose them as 1st picks. C and D are competing for Man, so none of them will get it. Instead C will get Abysia, since it's still free, and D will Ermor, since his 2nd and 3rd picks are already used by another player.

So the nations and designs will be Ulm-A, Caelum-B, Abysia-C, and Ermor-D.

Now let's decide who kills who: A -> B -> C -> D -> A (A is B's assassin, etc.)

So in the end the player setup will be:

A plays Ermor-D (the Ermor that was designed by D)
B plays Ulm-A
C plays Caelum-B
D plays Abysia-C

The designs will be remade so Ermor-D uses A's password, and so on.

OFC, when the game starts, noone knows who plays what, the only info each player has is the design of his victim's nation.

Quote:

3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week. Does that matter?

I'll send everyone his victim's nation design with the first turn.

Quote:

4. If I know whom I am supposed to "assassinate", won't they know who it is that is supposed to assassinate them (because I will be playing the nation which they wanted)?

Nope, it's their own victim that will play the nation they wanted.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 8th, 2004 03:58 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well

En Forcer

July 8th, 2004 04:23 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

oh oh...my assassin is going to be stoked....I made some really decent pretenders....

geez....

Okay, let's see if we can make this work! I'm in...

PvK	July 8th, 2004 07:11 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

I pretty much guessed what Nagot had in mind. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif (However I did choose pretenders I thought were good and that I would want to play myself. And no, I'm not the one who was talking to Norfleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif )

Sounds fun. I'm in.

BTW, I was in a fun and interesting game like this of Space Empires IV Gold. It's a bit easier there in that you can share star systems and fly through foreign positions as long as you have a peace treaty. It's also harder in Space Empires, because of the ability to give things to threatened victims to keep them alive. It got perverse at the end, though, because it was a "game over when the first one dies" game, and the first threatened victim player tried to use reverse psychology by refusing to rebuild himself "my weakness makes me strong", which sort of worked but ultimately backfired. I managed to keep them alive and make myself strong enough to stay alive, but then the race trying to kill me got frustrated at my defenses and blackmailed me to scuttle my defenses or he would end the game by backstabbing the weakest victim. I refused and attacked the blackMailer, the weak victim refused help, and my assassin then killed the weak victim, even though it meant giving the win to the weak victim's assassin.

Fortunately, in this game it won't be possible to trivially keep a weak player alive, and the point system means it's not so "all or nothing". However there is still the interesting element that it is in no one's interest to assassinate anyone except their target, and that target probably won't be a neighbor at first.

I have a question about the scoring though. Supposedly it's intentional that two killers can win... but I don't see how. I only see that a 2nd or 3rd killer can win if all previous killers are dead, but no way to tie.

PvK

Norfleet

July 8th, 2004 07:18 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Are you really as untrusting and sceptical as you make yourself appear in your Posts or is this merely a witty and ironic masquerade for the good-natured philanthropic person you really are?

I can be a nice guy, but I'm also just as skeptical and untrusting as I appear, if not more so. It's a trait that has kept me alive. If I wasn't this way, I'd already be dead.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 8th, 2004 07:31 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by PvK:
I have a question about the scoring though. Supposedly it's intentional that two killers can win... but I don't see how. I only see that a 2nd or 3rd killer can win if all previous killers are dead, but no way to tie.

It's possible for 2 players (A and B) to cooperate so that A scores 6 for the first kill, and B scores 4 + 2 for the 2nd and 3rd kills. Remember X -> Y -> Z becomes X -> Z when Y is eliminated, therefore everyone will always have exactly 1 victim and 1 assassin.

The funny part is you have no way to know who your new victim will be before your current victim is eliminated - unless that victim talks too much OFC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif . So in the above scenario it's possible that B realizes A is his new victim after he killed the first one.

I forgot to mention I'll keep an eye on the game's progress, so as soon as someone is eliminated I can notify the assassin who his new victim is.

Tannath

July 8th, 2004 07:44 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Sounds really fun. Count me in http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

En Forcer

July 8th, 2004 08:28 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Here's a question for you:

Are there any points for just killing the Pretender but not wiping out their nation? Like if an assassin gets in and takes a fellow out...

Just a thought. Maybe 1 point?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

July 8th, 2004 09:17 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Are there any points for just killing the Pretender but not wiping out their nation? Like if an assassin gets in and takes a fellow out...

I have considered this but eventually decided against it for practical reasons. There are just too many ways to die, and I should make provisions for too many special cases.

What if you and someone else pepper the province where your victim's pretender resides, with rituals like Seeking Arrow or Fires from Afar, and he and at least one other leader die as a result? There's no way to know who actually delivered the killing blow to the pretender. Should I give you points?

What if someone invades the province where your victim's pretender is, and the pretender routs and dies because you just conquered the one province he could retreat to? You didn't even meet this pretender, or try to assassinate him with spells, yet his death is a byproduct of your action. Should I give you points for that?

What if your victim's pretender dies from a disease he got when you wounded him in that battle 2 turns ago? Should I give you points?

These are just 3 examples out of the may ones I figured out while pondering this issue. So put the blame on Dominions' richness, not on me! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

En Forcer

July 8th, 2004 09:21 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Understood.

Then we really are just considering our pretenders as a sort of "elite" unit. Nothing
more.

I guess what threw me is using the lable "assassin" and "victim" for each side. Perhaps declaring "feud" or "causus belli" or "kanley" or something? A lable more national sounding?

Don't mind me. I'm just chomping at the bit to get into this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

reverend

July 9th, 2004 01:31 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Honestly. And here I thought I was paranoid...

Balmoth

July 9th, 2004 01:32 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
...3. To be honest, I can't remember at all which pretender designs I sent in; this was a very busy week....

I think you only need to get the pretender files you sent to NGF, copy all of the pretender files to the new pretender folder, and make a new game with 17 human players (or just your victim as human). This will make you able to see the design you chose.

tinkthank

July 10th, 2004 04:58 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by tinkthank:
I had sort of hoped it wouldn't be a "You play someone else's build" game -- I don't dislike such games because I feel "cheated", but I can't imagine me feeling "chez moi" in someone else's design. But ah well

Well, you should see that as an extra incentive to kill your victim, since it 'stole' the nation you wanted to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif <hr /></blockquote>Hee hee! OK, sounds good! When do we start?

PvK	July 10th, 2004 06:52 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Then we really are just considering our pretenders as a sort of "elite" unit. Nothing
more.

Unless you got my designs and then you have a Crone with no magic...

... just kidding. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

PvK

Bobum

July 11th, 2004 12:51 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

This sounds cool - I'm still in

reverend

July 12th, 2004 07:39 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Great to hear that this game is starting soon. But (don't take this the wrong way) I'd rather have such mass-mails with the recipients in the BCC ( -> blind ) list than in the normal "TO" field. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

July 12th, 2004 07:58 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by reverend:
I'd rather have such mass-mails with the recipients in the BCC ( -> blind ) list than in the normal "TO" field. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

OK. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Quarthinos

July 14th, 2004 01:24 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Has the first turn gone out yet, and I missed it?

My spam filter is acting a bit wonky, so it might have been deleted by mistake http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

PvK	July 14th, 2004 02:27 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

I just got mine not long ago.

PvK

P.S. However, I can't start it. It says it can't find a mod file called misf15.dm. Was this a mistake when creating the game (forgot to disable a mod?) or do we need to do something special (like go get a mod) to play?

[ July 14, 2004, 01:31: Message edited by: PvK ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004 02:53 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Yup, I forgot to disable a mod before generating the game. Check your mailbox again.

reverend

July 14th, 2004 04:49 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Now that the game has started... What about diplomacy? How much is allowed and by what means?

I can already see that this is gonna be fun AND a good experience. Got one of the races I'm least experienced with. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Nagot Gick Fel

July 14th, 2004 05:50 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by reverend:
Now that the game has started... What about diplomacy? How much is allowed and by what means?

Didn't you read the rules? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif The answer is there:

Quote:

Originally posted by Nagot Gick Fel:
8) No restriction on nations, strategies, tactics, diplomacy, whatever.

You have a goal: score points by having your victim(s) being ousted from the game. Use whatever means you'll find appropriate to fulfill that goal.

(Except means such as the physical elimination of the player controlling that nation, OFC. These rules aren't applicable outside of the game limits! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

En Forcer

July 14th, 2004 11:06 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Hah!

You will all die as squishy bits under my steel boots!

But I can't tell you just who I am....because my assassin might be reading this.

But you just wait and see!!!!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

[ July 14, 2004, 22:10: Message edited by: En Forcer ]

Nagot Gick Fel

July 16th, 2004 07:57 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

One of the players who signed up for the game seems to have vanished. He must be experiencing RL problems since he also failed to submit turns in other games lately, and isn't replying to emails.

So I'm looking for a replacement for Vanheim. At the time I'm posting this, all nations but Vanheim have submitted orders after receiving their first turn, but the new turn hasn't been generated yet. To avoid the game stalling for too long, I may have to submit basic orders for Vanheim myself, so if you're interested you won't have to rule over an underdevelopped nation. Be sure to check this thread if you haven't done it yet, as this is a very special game with very special victory conditions.

Nagot Gick Fel

July 16th, 2004 09:16 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Forget the previous post, it seems the missing player eventually resurfaced. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

En Forcer

July 16th, 2004 09:45 PM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Shall we iterate some sort of standing rule?

Say... if a player doesn't respond in 36 hours the administrator takes over the turn in the interest of all the other players.

36 hours seems more than enough time to contact someone or find an alternate means of communication if your system is down to let us know.

What do you guys think?

Nagot Gick Fel

July 17th, 2004 11:48 AM

Re: Players needed for an experimental game

Quote:

Originally posted by En Forcer:
Shall we iterate some sort of standing rule?

The rule should be in your mailbox by now. As well as a new turn.

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