Re: upkeep
 

I think that the way their upkeep is set now, things are pretty darn good.
I think Zen got it right the first time: /Summoned Units With Upkeep [e.g. Trolls]/ are good in many situations but not perfect for all.
Let's not go about nerfing this and boosting that just because of a particular style.
We all *want* the fully automatic buckshot laser-guided neutron plasma uzi with the self-regenerating 80gig clip, but that would make the game a lot less sexy as everyone would just go out and get one.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't think this is really fair, since you've ignored the recruitment cost of the mages in question, which, over a short duration of time, makes up a significant fraction of the cost. Plus, the level of pummelling inflicted by 33 mystics varies from immense to irrelevant, depending on the level of research with which you're making this comparison. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that are some good points . arco is a bad example since it's hard for them to summon mass vine ogres .
but if you reach conjuration 6 to summon trolls your opponents which summon vine ogres e.g. have most likely reached conjuration 3 meanwhile + at least to lvl 3-4 in either evocation / alteration or traumaturgy where their short run most useful combat spells are .
so the mages can do pretty amounts of damage .
but my neglecting of the recruit costs was a fault for normal maps that's totally true .
but it's not too hazardous i think if i say you can have at least 5 combat mages for the saved upkeep with your vine ogres then .
so they will be at least a difficult opponent to the trolls but more likely even win .

finally i say it once more since it was mostly ignored in my previous statements my thoughts are primarily for the faerun map .
on the other maps like aran / desert eye the upkeep aspects / long run aspects are quite negligible but on faerun you surely will beat some of your close neighbors but if you keep to that tactic for lategame it is a burden for you .

if you can manage to kill the trolls in suicide attacks after 5-10 turns but keep your troll kings it's most likely ok but if you keep them longer you will notice your unneeded additional upkeep badly .

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hmmm, Sea Trolls cost 50, regular Trolls cost 60. That's about the price of a Knight - eg, 60 for Man, 70 for Ulm. Compared to the Trolls, the knights' upkeep are similar or slightly higher.

So from what you say I have to conclude you either don't recruit knights when one of these nations, or if you do you try to suicide them at the first opportunity.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">OK, that's not very early. But as I've told before, Trolls are a midgame summon, and one of their benefits is they are usually available earlier than most upkeep-free summon which are equivalent in power.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think Vine Ogres are plain OK for their casting requirements. But they suffer from a few liabilities the Trolls don't have. Anyway that kind of comparisons is somewhat pointless: if I have nature gems and nature mages, I'll use Vine Ogres. If I have water gems and water mages I'll summon Sea Trolls. If I have death gems and necromancers I'll enchant Pale Riders. You have to do with what is available to you.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Same remark as above. I don't agree with the 'LH have more resistances', OFC. Both Trolls have 4 more MR and can't be banished. Sea Trolls and LHs have the same elemental resistances. Regular Trolls haven't poison resistance and are fire susceptible, anyway you won't kill Trolls thru poison alone because of their regen, and it's still easier to kill masses of LHs with fire spells than a single Troll. Even Incinerate will leave him with some HPs left.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And with what will you match my own Vine Ogres? I don't use Trolls as a replacement to something else I could otherwise summon. I use them when they're available and have the gems and mages to summon them, and when these mages haven't anything better to do. I think I emphasized this enough, I hope it's crystal clear now.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep, being mindless or undead is sometimes a liability, but there's no obvious way to kill a Troll.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rout is preferable to dissolution. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

So far it seems your only gripe against Trolls is their upkeep, not their stats. So I guess you don't recruit anything but mages once you have access to upkeep-free summons?

[ July 15, 2004, 18:51: Message edited by: Nagot Gick Fel ]

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's not what I've been writing... my point is that trolls have an upkeep which doesn't match their true value.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, more precisely the point we were discussing here was that you though Trolls are OK on small maps but a burden on XL maps due to their upkeep - which is also true of many expensive national troops, BTW - Jotuns, knights, Minotaurs, you name it.

Anyway I give up - let's say you won that one round. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up, or abandoned. Either way, you lose a lot of upkeep.

If they're slaughtered to the Last, you get to keep the king, and stop paying the upkeep on the trolls.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not when it comes to Trolls. If Trolls rout, they're now scattered across 4 or 5 provinces and have to be laboriously rounded up,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">These 4 or 5 province could be only 1 or 2.

3 would be a more common figure. No big deal, really.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a gross exageration. You lose a few upkeep. And you save on the gems and mage time the Vine Ogres Users will have to spend to summon replacements for their dissolved Vine army.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, but you see, it's a GOOD thing for the trolls to die off. Once enough of them die, you can afford to summon another Sea King's Court, abuse the trolls, and keep the Sea King to generate gems in perpetuity. Win/win.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I usually don't bother to recruit very many knights, as they do tend to be overly expensive for the combat ability they give you. I also don't spend water and earth gems to recruit knights. The problem is that you pay gems for them, then continue to pay for them in gold, which means that in many cases you would have been better off to have used your gems for something else.

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, as long as they bring more than their own worth of enemy troops to Hell with them, I've no problem with that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I usually don't bother to recruit very many knights, as they do tend to be overly expensive for the combat ability they give you. I also don't spend water and earth gems to recruit knights. The problem is that you pay gems for them, then continue to pay for them in gold, which means that in many cases you would have been better off to have used your gems for something else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">my opinion too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
in the early game special knights like the knights of the chalice are worth it if they are enchanted through good blessings . but sometime in midgame there will come a point were they are more and more useless . but since conj 6 is not early game but most likely midgame you most likely prefer to switch to upkeepfree troops .

the sea troll kings + troll kings are nice but especially the trolls are a unwanted coproduct .
while a knight of the chalice is very useful for 30-40 turns or so you can't summon a troll in the first 10-30 turns depending on research ... and so it is only useful for a quite short time .

but still i think i have to agree with nagot and zen partially because at conj6 it is hard to find any as powerful summons where you only need 1 mage to summon them and get a quite useful result. the only similiar spell at this levels is summon draconians .

i still don't like their upkeep but if they were without upkeep they were perhaps to powerful for the level at which you get them .

Re: upkeep
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh. KotS and Sea Trolls have roughly the same upkeep, 'cept you have to pay a hefty initial gold cost for the former. The main difference is you don't have to invest on heavy blessings with the latter, which sort of come with their own builtin Nature-9 blessing (with increased poison resistance BTW). They just lack the morale and berserking, but that's nothing a good Touch of Madness won't fix. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: upkeep
 

I think it's silly to try to argue whether Trolls or Vine Orges are "better." They each have their advantages and disadvantages.

I recently won a MP game, and Trolls and Vine Orges were key to the win. I summoned the Trolls early on for a quick tough army with which to destroy a Marignon assault. Later in the game, when income had been decimated by many turns of BoT and lots of pillaging, I used giant armies of Vine Orges to roll over Ermor. The Vine Orges wouldn't have done the job early in the game, and I could never have afforeded the upkeep on Trolls later in the game.

Re: upkeep
 

Well put!