Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Dunno. Maybe they worked together on it. I know the lead was from Black Isle. In any event them getting sacked was quite gay.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I believe Bioware was the publisher of BG2, not the developer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Going by the credits in the BG2 manual, it looks like Black Isle Produced it, Interplay published it, and Bioware developed it. I believe that Black Isle was responsible for the infinity engine, but I could be mistaken. Bioware has all the BG games listed at their website as well, which is a bit of a further indication.

I'm just glad that the Fallout license has been picked up by somebody, even if it is Bethesda, as I'd rather see development work be done on it than have it sit in an unknown filing cabinet in some unknown location in Seattle like the rights for Betrayal at Krondor.

[ July 18, 2004, 02:11: Message edited by: Graeme Dice ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

The Infinity engine that BG2 used is copyright from BioWare, and BioWare held the overall game's copyright.

Interplay's mismanagement of projects, and licensing disputes between Black Isle and WotC over AD&D, doomed Black Isle. And that's not even getting into issues of the internal politics and dynamics between Interplay and Black Isle.

EDIT: AFAIK, Black Isle was responsible for BG2's design (and other "high-level" issues) and BioWare was the shop that actually cranked out the code.

[ July 18, 2004, 02:30: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well the engine was frankly... outstanding. But it was the amazing amount of content that really made BG2 a winner. Things like kit classes, side quests, those annoying romances, an amazing villan (Irenicus best game baddie by far?), outstanding voice acting, situational events... that game offered so much. I'd happily plunk down $200 for BG3 with the same old engine and just a new story.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

I feel the same way about BioWare's latest Infinity-engined game, KotOR, and am delighted that we'll be seeing KotOR 2 next year (if it stays on schedule, and games rarely do).

All too often, what many devs (and too many players) think is that fancy graphics and intricate rules (complex character creation and advancement paths) makes for a good game. Lots of -- meaningful -- quests, an involved and intriguing plot, and high-quality voice acting are what make a great game. Everything else is ... window (Windows?) dressing. Just look at Beyond Divinity for an example of what *not* to do.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Now that Im "in" the business and get the insider magazines I would have to disagree. Its true to a point but very few of the publishers can afford to get into consoles. They all are diversifying though. Some to board games, some to cell phone games, some to mmorpg. But nearly all of them (especially in the US) are definetly in cutbacks.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Im sure thats factual enough although they would probably put it in terms of "supply and demand" and "market saturation" and "realistic returns for investors". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">True. I havent been following those much. Oh well, world economy. They get our geeks jobs, and send our geeks wives. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Gandalf,

The only thing I can add to your reply is don't rely overmuch on what you read in trade press (for any particular trade). I get rags for my trade (software consulting) and what I read rarely jives with what I see in the real world around me. The same was true when I was in network support a decade ago. A friend of mine is a hotel manager and what he reads in his industry's trade rags bears little resemblence to reality according to the stories he tells me.

Plus, limiting yourself to just what you read about US developers (even assuming it's true for them) is hardly representative of the broader context of the global economy. You'd see that your trade is prospering quite nicely if you'd cross that big chunk of water to our east.

And please, please don't remind me about outsourcing. My Last permanent job ended up in Calcutta. I'm am still quite sore (a massive understatement; I'm livid) about it.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, if they steal all your jobs, pretty soon they won't need to send you any wives because you'll be poor, and it'll be your turn to send THEM wives.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

i hope bethesda does a good job on FO3... cuz if its in the same style of MOrrowind the whole feel is going to be ruined...

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I doubt you have that particular issue to fear. FO is top-down isometric view and MW is first-person. If FO was made using a MW-style engine, it wouldn't *be* FO anymore, except in name. I don't honestly think Bethesda could be *that* stupid. The bigger worry is that they'd keep the format the same as in FO/FO2, but lose the irreverent, tongue-in-cheek humor that made the original so popular. IOW, put out a POS game like Lionheart (built using the FO engine by an "no-name" developer, instead of Black Isle, for Interplay), which was not only tedious and boring, but horrendously buggy (adding insult to injury).

But Bethesda does have a tendency to try to get things right, and to take however long it takes to do so (as opposed to rushing stuff to market). Morrowind (and their earlier games) may have their flaws, but they weren't *bad* games.

It's JA3 I'm worried about, not FO3. I see the same thing happening with JA3 that happened with Lionheart, and for the same reason.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Getting back on topic here: Woohoo! MoM 2!
Let the festivities begin!

Incidentally, StarDock were originally unsure of whether to remake MoM or Star Control II. Their choice of games fills me with optimistic fuzzytude.

Update: Correction, either a remake of MoM, or a sequel to StarCon II. Which doesn't suck. ***. With gusto.

[ July 20, 2004, 23:23: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

i'm pretty sure Bethesda are going to make fallout first person realtime ie. like morrowind. you think they're going to go develop a new engine when they have a perfectly servicible one?

the real Q is whether they can create something w/ the original feel, at least as far as setting, story and interaction, if not as to game dynamics.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, the real question is whether they can code something where you don't have to hop up on top of furniture so you can't be reached while repeatedly shooting your opponent because he won't die when shot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

A related question is whether you still have to bunny-hop around the map because it beats walking.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wouldn't be the first time a company *didn't* reuse existing code. Fallout is a TB tactical RPG, while Morrowind is a RT FP RPG. However, the article at this link is interesting. The concluding sentence is sort of vague:

"Pete Hines: Too early to say, but I imagine it'll probably lean towards using technology that we're developing."

Might be read as either their existing FPS technology, or an entirely new (and secret) technology yet to be revealed.

Personally, I think you're correct, and Pete's dodging of the questions is likely due to them wanting the project to be advanced enough along so that they can show off an alpha and woo people rather than turn them off early on by telling gamers that the FO franchise is shifting format. If Bethesda were do do FO as well as Bioware did KotOR (unlikely, but possible), I doubt there'd be any complaints. I mention Bioware, because Bioware did top-down TB games like BG, and then heavily modified their engine to do a RT FP RPG. Perhaps Bethesda, seeing what Bioware did, and how successfully, may have gotten the idea to try something like that themselves. I can only hope.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you may have severely overestimated Bioware's accomplishments. KoTOR was more or less an adaptation of the same engine NWN used. You can tell this, despite their attempts to deny it, because they shared some of the same bugs.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

When/where has Bioware denied that KotOR uses a modified BG/NWN engine? They outright told us this before KotOR ever released. It was in a preview article in either CG or CGW about 1-2 years ago.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">On the forums somewhere, when people mentioned this, official sources started deny that KOTOR did, in fact, use the NWN engine. It's probably buried somewhere on their forum archives, you can go dig it up if you want.

Ultimately, I'd have to say it was a fairly bad move, given that the first person view only served to hilight the fact that you couldn't actually *DO* anything you couldn't have done better before, except now you couldn't see what you were doing, either.

[ July 21, 2004, 03:33: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

eh, i thought Bioware did NWN anyway... but i could be wrong.

Im more worried about FO3 i guess, cuz if someone messes up a title (like JA3) you can just write it off...its from a no name developer and i havent seen what they have done.

however, Morrowind has such a different feel then Fallout, that i am not sure Bethesda can even pull it off whether its first person or isometric.

imo Bioware is prolly best suited to carry it on or whatever the name of the studio Uruquart (or whatever the game designer for FO went) i forget the name.

Also, Lionheart was made by black isle, but a very different black isle (obviously)

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You aren't. Bioware did NWN.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm not sure how, exactly, Fallout could be made in any way to resemble a first or third person game without completely compromising its "Falloutness", producing either a horrid game where everything you do feels completely ineffective, or a game which is basically Quake.

And, of course, there's that horrible lingering image of pogo-stick drive-by shootings.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, if they steal all your jobs, pretty soon they won't need to send you any wives because you'll be poor, and it'll be your turn to send THEM wives. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In Soviet Russia, WIVES send YOU!?

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I disagree. The feel of Fallout was in the NPCs and the scenery and had nothing to do with the top-down isometric view. It also had much to do with the TB action point system. Converting FO to real-time is what I fear would break its feel, not the camera view.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I can't imagine how you'd manage to do a first-person game in turn-based mode. How would that even work? Like one of those really old-school dungeon crawlers? I'd say the top-down view and turn-based play is nearly essential to the "feel" of the game - they've tried to take it real-time before, and it was largely regarded as awful.

The other fundamental expectation of real-time, first or third-person games is that when you're looking up close and personal at things, you can immediately observe any distortions. There's also the expectation that what you do MATTERS. Take, for instance, KOTOR, what would otherwise have been a pretty awesome if it wasn't marred by the awful attempt at third-person person view. As it stands, I considered it merely satisfactory. As a point: In a first or third person game, when you see an incoming projectile coming at you, your first thought is "INCOMING!", and you attempt to get out of the way. Sadly, in KOTOR, all of the enemy projectiles tend to be homing and will track you even if you duck behind a corner. In fact, nothing you do really matters, and rather than adding to the feel of immersion, the third-person view destroys it by making it very apparent that nothing you do matters - ultimately, combat is still resolved in the purely mechanistic RPG-style that would have looked fine from overhead, but just doesn't work up close.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Try "Return to Krondor", just to name one. There have been others.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Just wanted to post a thought in this thread :

Why should I bother with MM2 when I have dom2 ?

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

"Why should I bother with MM2 when I have dom2 ?"

'Cos Dom 2 is terrible SP and MOM wasn't?

(this may be 10 years and a general disatisfaction with SP talking. I do remember longing to play MOM MP.)

Pickles

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Dom 2 is actually one of the best non-historical strategy games playable in SP. It is certainly better than any of its competitors in the genre (AoW, etc.).

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would tend to agree. Not that I consider it a major "broke" thing since Dom2 is meant to be a multiplayer game. Its pretty good SoloPlay for being an MP game. I think MoM was a great SoloPlay game, and would make a terrible multiplayer game. I certainly hope that MoM2 just recreates MoM without trying to add that.

Now if they tried a MoM3, and could possibly figure out how to do MP balance the way Dom2 does, then MAYBE they can achieve a game that does both fairly well. But rather than mess it up Id rather have both. Dom2 for MP, and MoM2 for SP.

[ July 23, 2004, 14:59: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
"I think MoM was a great SoloPlay game, and would make a terrible multiplayer game. I certainly hope that MoM2 just recreates MoM without trying to add that."

MP games need simpler core mechanics and fewer turns to complete than SP games IMO. Dom is of course fiendishly complex but the core movement system is simple, there are no alliance rules, and economic admin is straightforward. until mass forging comes along.

I am unsure what I want in MOM2. I would be happy with the same game pretty much revamped to 2005 standards. Or a MP game that had the feel of the original. But a bastard offspring that did both poorly would be very sad.


In reply to Arryn. Obviously we have different opinions as I cannot be bothered with dom SP - I sandbox a bit to test but that's it. The other games must be truly dire (I tried AoW and it was)

Pickles

[ July 23, 2004, 15:12: Message edited by: Pickles ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

I wouldn't want them to alter the gameplay significantly to make it MP but if they added MP as an afterthought, without changing SP, I wouldn't mind. It wouldn't be great MP, battles would probably have to be computer run, but as long as it didn't affect SP, it would just be a bonus (like the hotseat MP shell was).

- Kel

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I think you've understood my point. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Gandalf's comment about Dom 2 being "good" in SP for a game that's intended to be played MP is spot on. AoW and its ilk spent too much money on coding graphics and not enough on AI. But AI coding is hard work, and graphics is pretty straightforward (given today's toolkits). Warlords 3 had decent AI (not great, just decent). But that (and AoW) are simpler games than Dom 2. Being simpler makes it all the more annoying that a game has an inferior AI. With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually there was an addon program that let you play MoM multiplayer. Well hotseat. It worked pretty well but tended to show why MP didnt work well in MoM.

Its very hard for MP and SP to share a game. I loved things in MoM like maybe starting off with a great resource inside my capital cities zone. Or the irritation of having a big lair next to me which I know is going to start tossing wandering units out before I can take it. Or the difference between one hero showing up (YAY!) or another (not worth the money).

In MP those are all "unfair". Multiplayer games dont want things to be decided by random events instead of by player actions. They want fair and equal maps and starting positions. They want interesting events but not majorly plus or minus to the player. They want no chance that someone will end up starting so fantastically, or so horribly, that you quit and generate a new game for a more playable start.

Im not saying any of that is bad. Its just that a game pretty much has to decide ahead of time if design decisions are going to be in favor of good MP play or in favor of good SP play when they seem to conflict. Or, which is even worse, a middle-of-the-road little-bit-good for both. Its very hard to do either MP or SP well. Its VERY hard to do them both well. Dom2 and Space Empires IV (both Shrapnel games) are the closest Ive seen in my decades of playing games. I just want my MoM back. Then they can mess with it.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Originally posted by Arryn:
" With all the many flaws the Dom 2 AI has, it's still decent enough to whip the stuffing out of noobs, and there aren't many games I know of that can do that."

It seems to do it by ganging up on you rather than by out playing you though. The thing is an exercise in frustration chasing down random attacks.

To reply to Gandalf about randomness - I consider dom 2 to be too random for a serious MP game really. eg my first MP game I lost 1/4 of my population turn one with + luck and a lucky pretender - half my net income.
The fun of the process of teh game though makes this bearable - you are only really likely to be screwed in the firt half dozen turns which is not much of a commitment for a quick defeat!

Pickles

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

I just wanted to butt into the conversation here with Pickles.

Re: Luck

Yes, this game does depend pretty heavily on luck. Though everyone is on the same 'bad luck' scale. Where you are getting flooded, your opponent has his temple burn down on turn 2. While another player has a knight attack on his only high income provine on turn 6.

I used to get very frustrated in with this when playing MP (I seem to have a magnet for events), but eventually I found that I was able to compensate for it by everyone elses bad luck and those few good luck events that really put things into perspective.

A more determining factor than luck of events is luck of starting position/provincal defense. I find that has more of an impact how I play than random (un)lucky events.

P.S. When are you going to start making maps for Dom2?! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

Oh, I understand, and agree, Gandalf.

Just as Dom2 is a strong MP game and, imo, a not so strong SP game...if they did give MoM2 MP capabilities, I would hope it would be the reverse, with it being a great SP game and just an ok MP game.

- Kel

PS, to anyone propagating this graphics bashing trend, it's getting pretty old. Good graphics may not make a game but bad graphics hardly make a game better. I can point to just as many bad games with bad graphics as you can bad games with good graphics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

"Just as Dom2 is a strong MP game and, imo, a not so strong SP game...if they did give MoM2 MP capabilities, I would hope it would be the reverse, with it being a great SP game and just an ok MP game."

Not sure I see the point - who would play it ? SP dom2 is training as far as I am concerned.


"Good graphics may not make a game but bad graphics hardly make a game better."


hear hear - and interface even more so.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually that fits my comments. Its nearly impossible for a game to do both. Everyone pretty much agrees that Dom2 is MP with some SP. But even the SP it has causes MPers to get mad. Im mostly SP so the things I would request (random maps, more events, alittle more random in combat, better AI) are all things that I know arent going to be as high on the list as things that are more MP oriented.

In MoM one of my favorite spells was charm. I loved going into caves with one guy and trying to win it by charming the basilisk. Of course I always saved before hand and reloaded if I failed. And that was many many times. That favorite spell of mine would quickly be targeted by MPers as needing fixed. They want a combat to be a formula so that it can be used strategically, not as a luck roll.

One of the best efforts at a MoM2 was "Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic". Is seemed obvious that they did it on purpose. That Lasted a month on my machine and MoM is still on my machine. Why? Im not totally sure. But it just felt too watered down. It was multiplayer. It was basically, exactly, what a multiplayer MoM would be. Others can try to pin it down further. All I know is that it didnt hold my attention even though it seemed like an awfully good MoM update.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are a lot of things that are not considered MP-friendly, such as high randomization, that some people, like me, don't mind all the time.

It doesn't actually cause a game to be more luck based as reacting to randomness is part of skill...but in terms of it being competitive, who will actually win, it does become more luck based and that understandably bothers a lot of people.

The people who would play, I assume, would be people that don't mind this randomness or people who simply like MoM enough to play it MP (as there are clearly people who enjoy playing Dom2 SP, though I am with you on that count).

- Kel

PS: While I didn't play the expansion for it, I did play AoW and I actually didn't think it was much like MoM. So far, one huge thing that most of those games is missing is the whole Civ style empire building aspect of the game.

[ July 23, 2004, 19:51: Message edited by: Kel ]

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

[quote]Originally posted by Gandalf Parker:
In MoM one of my favorite spells was charm. I loved going into caves with one guy and trying to win it by charming the basilisk. Of course I always saved before hand and reloaded if I failed. And that was many many times. That favorite spell of mine would quickly be targeted by MPers as needing fixed. They want a combat to be a formula so that it can be used strategically, not as a luck roll.


Yet Dom2 has Charm, Succubus, and Hellbind Heart. The key to the spell being viable for MP is that you can't save and reload - it's a crap shoot, as are several other spells in Dom2 (like the ones that have a 50% chance of killing an enemy commander, 50% to come back, or Stream of Life - 40% it kills the enemy, 60% it heals, hastes, etc).

One of the best efforts at a MoM2 was "Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic". Is seemed obvious that they did it on purpose. That Lasted a month on my machine and MoM is still on my machine. Why? Im not totally sure. But it just felt too watered down. It was multiplayer. It was basically, exactly, what a multiplayer MoM would be. Others can try to pin it down further. All I know is that it didnt hold my attention even though it seemed like an awfully good MoM update.

I wouldn't call it a MoM update, as a number of things were very different. As Kel said - it didn't have the 4X (or Civ2) feel that MoM did, scouting, sending out settlers (pioneers?) and hoping for great sites.

I found that the game bogged down - individual units in squads, 9 units per squad, up to 4 squads per side, made for long grinding battles. Likewise some of the maps and scenarios were too large and started to stagnate for me.

And, worst of all, the ... linear scenarios. First you got one kind of magic. Then you got a different kind. And when you got to a scenario you hated, too bad - either finish that one and hope for better, or stop playing.

I never played AoW multiplayer - maybe it's actually better that way, but ....

One I personally miss (and should post on the other OT thread) is the original Warlords. Minimal micromanagement, fairly quickpaced, each race played differently and each had several possible immediate courses of action. It was great for hot-seat MP games, especially with multiple computers - we'd set up 2 or 3 computers in an apartment and have multiple games going, so people didn't have to wait too long to have a turn to take.

Anacreon was another me and my friends did that with - take home some laptop computers from work for the weekend and game away.

Re: OT: Master of Magic 2 - now looking quite likely
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's your opinion, and I surely disagree.