Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Have I written anything about supporting Republicans??? NO ! So despite your vast mind reading abilities you are wrong here. I am not supporting either side... just don't want Kerry because he is trying to make huge changes which will give us HIGHER taxes, more government intervention and he is for abortion which goes against my moral beliefs.
None of the presidents have changed the national debt from increasing to decreasing.... when one of them can do this then I'd have enough faith to give him a shot at some national healthcare system which is also a huge financial task/responsibility.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">According to the current political scheme of things, you're a "moderate" Republican. IOW, you're a rational, thinking person, unlike the mainstream mindless drones in your party. As for how your party was hijacked, you must ask yourself what people of like-minded values such as yourself were doing since 1994 and Newt Gingrich's hostile takeover of the Congress, or during the election campaign of 2000? We'd be a helluva lot better off if McCain had won the primary battle back then. Instead of having to face a choice between Bush and Kerry now.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Overrated.

Update: If this was PWoT, I'da just said "Banned". It even rhymes with "Bland". Let hilarity ensue.

Updated update: Dude, it turns out Bush is actually stupid! Critique retracted, this is some brilliant and insightful political commentary.
How come nobody noticed this before?

Yet another update: For that matter, how come he'll still probably win the upcoming elections?

[ July 26, 2004, 12:55: Message edited by: Vicious Love ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

fogive me for not quoting you vigabrand.


I can't believe you would insinuate that a man not pushing his own personal values upon the country is a bad thing. I don't know kerry personally, but i do know that the president is not an elected king. It is not the presidents job to impose his values upon americans, but to manage comprimise with them.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

[/quote]We'd be a helluva lot better off if McCain had won the primary battle back then. Instead of having to face a choice between Bush and Kerry now.[quote]

I can't say I disagree.

The whole party thing is a real mess though. Its a shame we have to choose between to Groups of people who, by the nature of their organizations, have to put the american people third on their list of priorities...if that.

(yes i realize I don't have to vote rep or dem i'm sure you get the picture)

[ July 27, 2004, 01:36: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What gamble? The U.S. is the only industrialized nation that doesn't provide universal health care, spends more per capita on health care than any other industrialized nation in the world, and ranks a dismal 37th in the world.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, the moral thing is to help everyone, however, this is irrelevant to a _national_ health care system.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What wisdom is required? You simply create a fee schedule for the various services that Dr.'s and the system will provide that is similar to the one currently in place. When someone uses a service, you pay the Dr. or hospital accordingly. The only difference between this and the current system is that the government sets the rates instead of the health insurers.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is an irrelevant example. If the person can afford a BMW, then they should not be on food stamps in the first place. That's an example of fraud. Please explain how someone is supposed to gain monetary benefit from a health care system that they've already paid for through taxes? Health care is no different than policing in that it's a public good, and I don't hear you suggesting that police forces should be privatized.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is another strawman. If those nations were willing to pay taxes to the U.S. to gain healthcare services, then they should, of course, gain access to such services.

There is no reason why the U.S. shouldn't fix its own social problems before trying to fix those of the rest of the world anyways.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">They could also be as low as the U.K's, where once they pay half as much per person once again. You must remember that the U.S. system costs more per person than every single other system in any industrialized nation in the entire world. All of which guarantee health care to everyone.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is most likely completely incorrect. There are any number of illnesses that will kill you even though you "feel fine".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are making the fallacious assumption that unnecessary treatment will be given. You are also making the fallacious assumption that such treatment will hurt the body.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Like I said, given your _maturity level_, you can't be much more than 20 at the most. Probably more like 12 - 15, since you've demonstrated the standard teenage "me first" mentality.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And the fact that there are people who are not _able_ to take care of themselves is completely lost on you. Like I said, that's a complete lack of empathy.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I find it amusing that for the first time, I'm on GD's side of an argument, rather than Norfleet's. Such a wonder. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

OTOH, if I'm ever on NT's side I may have a stroke. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/shock.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol vigabrand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

OECD figures for 1999, which measure total tax burden as a percentage of total economic output, have the US at 14.2%. Sweden is the second highest, at 21.7%, but Ireland, Austria, Switzerland, Germany, France, Netherlands, Spain, Greece, Japan... all have lower overall tax burdens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

and yet, somehow, they all manage to have universal health care. who'd a thunk it.

http://www.taxpayer.com/Facts/Intern...omparisons.pdf </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Those figures are based on income taxes as a percentage of GDP. That's not what we're talking about. Here is a more accurate picture.

http://www.oecd.org/document/51/0,23..._1_1_1,00.html

I was pretty close, with Germany in the 50% of household income for a single worker.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">His job as a senator and possibly president is to represent the beliefs of a certain group of people and govern by them. He is supposed to create legislation and administer based on those beliefs. That is his job. That is why someone would vote for him. Compromise is only when you can't get the full support you need to push whatever adjenda you promised to fulfill.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">He'll give us higher taxes? Than what we have now? Which are at near historical lows, at least and especially for the rich, since when income taxes were first put in effect in the USA.

Not to mention that we're _STILL_ getting more government intervention right now - you'd think that with the "war on terror", our government would have better things to do than ... crack down on strip joints and Online porn, on Online music sharing (Oh! The terrorists are financing their bombings via Online music sharing!), on legalized marijuana for medicinal purposes, on abortion, on people having the state-legalized right to die with a little dignity.

Not to mention that the current administration has asked Congress to give the Department of Homeland Security the authority to delay the presidential election, "just in case". Delay, postpone, cancel - screw that.

We're not going away from big government - we're just watching our civil liberties being stripped away ("He better watch what he says" - White House Press Secretary, on camera, speaking about Bill Mahrer's Politically Incorrect TV show - what the F@# happened to free speech and the first amendment?) in the name of "national security" as done by the Three Studges (Baby Bush, Dick "What an *******" Cheny, and Big Biziness), and in the name of corporate profits.

Your morality is against abortion? Fine! Don't get an abortion. It isn't like Kerry is going to _FORCE_ your girlfriend/wife/sheep to get one.

I'm with Arryn - blood and bone, I wish McCain had gotten the nomination. Or Bradley. Or Charlie f-ing Manson even. I'd vote for McCain. I'd have voted for Bradley. And right now, I'd vote for Manson if I thought he could defeat Boy George.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Gee - under Clinton (who only screwed a few women, and not the country) the national debt _DID_ decrease.

[ July 27, 2004, 02:49: Message edited by: Cainehill ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, you mean like Dumb ****'s 49 percent - that was what made him say it didn't matter, he was 100% of the president.

No - _Dubya_'s job may be to create laws based on the beliefs of the far right fundamentalist Xians and the corporations, but that _isn't_ what a senator's job, or a president's job, is supposed to be.

We're not a bloody theocracy, nor a monarchy, and given that any particular group is going to represent at most maybe 20-25% of the population, you think that group's morals and standards should be imposed as law?

Swive me, and bugger you.

Heh. On the bright side - maybe Thomas Ricks was right in his book on the Marine Corps, and the Corps _will_ rebel against society as it finds society's mores and standards increasing divorced from its own.

Or maybe we'll wake up to guillotines on the White House and Senate steps, or a return to the "one bullet, one vote" philosophy.

Sheesh.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

thats what it is like in germany NTJedi :

everyone has to pay tax for healthcare . but once you break a border like 100000$ / year you may chose between these 3 options :
1. still pay tax for healthcare .
2. pay no tax anymore but pay instead to superior private healthcare insurance companies with better insurance quality than that one given by the state
3. chose to pay nothing and pay everything yourself if you need to .

this way healthcare for everyone is guaranted but you have still motivation to improve by not needing the state health care anymore but get the better private health care or pay all your own .
everybody has to pay a state healthcare insurance fee but if he is rich enough he may chose instead a private health care insurance which provides better treatment . if you go to the doctor e.g. patients with private health insurance are treated before that with state health care expect in emergency cases .
if you are multimillionaire you may even pay all yourself and need no insurance at all .

but i think the american health care system is superior because of the following reasons :

in young years in general most people are quite healthy . so you can invest that money which you would otherwise have to pay as health care taxes and so get interest . this way you have more money when you are older and it is hopefully enough to pay for most medical treatment .

because that's the next problem :
medicine has improved so much in the Last decades that the average life-span is increasing and increasing . but because more and more ultraexpensive technic devices are needed for that treatment it can't be paid much longer from the state for everyone and not only the few who can afford it .
germany is almost bankrupt because or huge social programs like health care , pensions and unemployment benefit become unpayable .

so conclusion NTJedi : you are totally right and wait 10 years and many nations like germany will have abolished national healthcare and have a system similiar to the USsystem .


the main "problem" is just : when you are very ill with the age of e.g. 75 years expensive medical measures will keep you alive for 5 additional years . but you won't have much life qualitiy in that additional years but it costs something like X00.000 $ . of course almost everybody would prefer to life that 5 years longer because at least i will live as long as possible but it is just impayable .

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">"Lies, damned lies, and statistics." Not that the numbers either of you are citing are wrong. Per se. The problem is that statistics are subject to interpretation, and interpretation is often wrong. None of these numbers are truly meaningful because they fail to measure what is the crux of the issue being debated: cost vs. benefit. On average, workers in EU countries pay a higher % of income in taxes than those in the U.S. But do they get value for their extra expenditure? None of you have answered that question. Until you can, comparisons between the U.S. and elsewhere are meaningless. Does the U.S. have better healthcare? Depends on who you ask. Millionaire celebrities get better care than night shift janitorial workers. But this is true most everywhere in the world, not just the U.S. There are U.S. laws already in place that mandate that no one is turned away from hospitals, regardless of ability to pay. Whether they get the same level of service is a seperate argument. The proper question to ask is: whose citizen's pay more, per capita, for healthcare (after factoring taxes, out-of-pocket costs, etc.)? Once you have a table of how much each country's citizens pay, only then can you compare the quality of care between nations.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a risk I'm willing to take. So far, it's paid off nicely.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A little bit of suffering and pain builds character and toughness. Toughness you won't have if you constantly over-medicate everything and become dependent on the stuff.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, yes, the ever-subtle insult.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I do not have a complete lack of empathy. I am, for instance, known by my friends as being one of their more generous and helpful friends. Why do I help them? Because they're my friends, and that's what friends are for. The same cannot be said for some random person who's predicament I am utterly unfamiliar with, and strongly suspect he brought upon himself. Like I said: I am, in no way, opposed to helping people. I do, however, find reprehensible, the idea that you should dictate that I *MUST* help people who I feel are utterly undeserving of help, at my expense, just so *YOU* can feel like you've done a good thing. This is worse than robbery. At least thieves are risking their own safety and security in their attempt to acquire what is mine. Should get manage they manage to succeed, I will certainly curse them, but it can't be denied that they stole it fair and square. Your attitude, however, is worse than thievery. You can't even bring yourself to steal honestly. Instead you resort to cowardly tricks like this.

Last but not least, I most certainly donate more money to charity than you probably even earn. You know what? I can do that. It's my choice. When you start trying to mandate it, it's no longer charity, it's worse than thievery.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could just die. Your children will thank you for not wasting their inheritance on prolonging your own miserable existence because you were too cowardly to embrace death when it should have rightfully come for you. The problem is that people have this bizarre, unnatural hangup about embracing their own deaths that they're willing to spend ridiculous sums of money that they don't even have in an attempt to prolong their own sorry, misbegotten, miserable existence. In a few years I'm going to be at this crossroads...and you know what? Rather than being a miserable leech and spend way more than I actually have in a sorry attempt to stay alive as a pathetic loser, I'm just gonna bite it with some dignity, and maybe will my fortune off to some worthy cause, as I lack children. That worthy recipient will undoubtedly thank me for my choice of oblivion over fruitless misery.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This analogy is not apt to the circumstances. Kerry's stance is that he disagrees with abortion but will not force that opinion on others in the form of legislation.

If we want to fit this into your baseball analogy, this is equivalent to Kerry having a religion that condemns 3rd base, and then with him saying that he agrees 3rd base is bad but the standard rules of baseball have it, and he won't make laws trying to change that to fit his religion's teachings.

Can a politician uphold and enforce laws that are contrary to his own religious beliefs without rejecting those beliefs? John F. Kennedy swore to put the laws of his country above his own beliefs. Kerry swears the same.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This analogy is not apt to the circumstances. Kerry's stance is that he disagrees with abortion but will not force that opinion on others in the form of legislation.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Rather like some people might think that alcohol is immoral, but wouldn't choose to outlaw it for all people. Or, to make it a matter of life and death - a person who thinks that killing animals for food is heinous. Would you want a vegan, on the basis of hir personal morality, outlawing meat? I wouldn't. Even though I do think there's something morally wrong, or at least logically lacking, in the thought that "All life is sacred, except animals". We _are_ animals, mammals. It's hard to morally justify killing cows, lambs, rabbits, and ducks as being any better than killing and eating cats, dogs, dolphins, and human beings. Certainly I think the animals dying in terror and fear, and even worse, living in pain and misery is morally unjustified, by any standard that a "pro-lifer" could propound.

Why is a fetus's life worth more than a dogs? Why is it okay to abort a child if it is the product of rape? Or if the mother's life is endangered? The _BABY_ didn't rape anyone; the baby's life isn't worth less than the mothers.

And why isn't using a condom murder? Why isn't ... "slipping out" murder? Those sperm cells were alive, and just as sentient as a newly fertilized ova.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Sadly, Boy George only puts the laws that support his monomaniacal beliefs (that campaign contributors are good, and dissenters are Hitler/Bin Laden/Anti-Christ supporters) above his personal feelings, and pushes new laws that support his beliefs.

Not to mention his hypocrisy - "People who do drugs should have their lives ruined - unless they're me, or another politically connected SOB, in which case DUIs and cocaine busts can be swept under the carpet."

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In a long-running flamefest that happened many months ago, and was eventually pruned by the Moderators, you did. Alas, since it was pruned, I cannot quote it back to you (throw it in your face). You very firmly bashed all things Democratic and favored all things Republican.


<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Kerry is for the right to choose an abortion. Which is not the same thing, and is a distinction that appears to be too subtle for you. Personally, he's against abortion. But he won't cram his personal beliefs down other's throats, unlike the Bushies. No one, and I mean no one, has the right to choose someone else's path. That's tyranny of the worst sort. We Americans condemn the lack of freedom in many other countries, notably those in the mideast, yet if the Bushies have their way, they'd happily turn the U.S. into the same sort of theocracy/plutocracy that Saudi Arabia is.

Please spare us your moral indignation. It's hypocritical.

EDIT: typoes.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:22: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, they tried that. It actually managed to become a constitutional amendment. Scary. Eventually it was repealed for being an awful idea.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That'd be awful. I'd start my own resistance movement right there. I mean, no meat? We'd all starve and die horribly of malnutrition.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You can quickly reach logical coherency by discarding this premise as false. Graeme, however, would likely call me a horrible person for saying such a thing, as if I was some sort of serial killer or mass-murderer merely because I have logically discarded an internally inconsistent belief.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean like the people who oppose the right to die? There are people out there, trying to tell you that you're not allowed to die. In fact, they've managed to make it illegal to do so in many places! Fortunately, if you actually succeed, you'll be too dead to be brought to trial, so nobody really takes this one seriously.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you could keep asking "why", but the logical answer is simply "It isn't."

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Meh, drugs. Didn't they learn that this didn't work back in the 20s? It's deja vu all over again.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, it really doesn't "suck". If you'd look at the most basic of statistics, you'd see that our mortality statistics are comparable or better than that of the U.S.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No it SUCKS. Canada has the benefit of having a 2-tier health system. If you can afford it you go to the US. If you can not you get treated in Canada. No one with a right head and sufficient capital and the time will pick a location for treatment will stay in Canada for any important medical procedure. I would not mind getting my scraped knee taken care of in Canada but any serious procedure I would want done in the US.

Seriously every jackass who thinks he knows anything about health care talks endlessly about how the Canadian system is better. I am an Ex-Pat now living in the US so I know. I have experienced both systems 1st hand. The Canadian system *SUCKS*.

Yes, yes it is clear that the statistics for a country will be better if you have universal health care. That's so painfully clear it hurts. Since there are a great number of simple problems which can be solved by a simple application of medicine.

However if you have the choice between the two systems the choice is clear: the US. US tort law insures that doctors takes the greatest pains possible for care. The compensation of doctors within the US insures that they have the best doctors on average ( I'm sure that every person "knows a great doctor in Canada", whatever ). The compensation of doctors in the US also insures that they have the best equipment available ( the tort law also reinforces this ).

It is simply better if you can afford it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's the problem. You can't simply ignore the people who can't afford it and then state that the system is superior. If you want your sample to be at all indicative of the actual state, then you must include even those people that can't afford proper healthcare.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I sure can say it is better. I said it is better *IF* you can afford it, you are the jackass saying the Canadian system is simply better. I qualified my statement to make it correct. I'm all for a 2 tier system. Of course you can't sell a 2-tier system. Hell most Canadian’s will not admit that they have a 2 tier system even though they all have "rich friends" who get procedures done in the US.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:37: Message edited by: Huzurdaddi ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What's funny (that's funny as in "damned disgusting") is that the Republicans who so very much despise the concept of universal healthcare as destructive of America's present fine medical care system are also very busy trying to undo the very system of tort laws that you assert is the underpinning of why the U.S. has good health care. So, if things progress (devolve is actually a better term) the way they are going, the U.S. will end up with the worst of all possible systems: medical care that's expensive, covers only the rich, and with no system of protection against negligent/incompetent practicioners. Something to ponder ...

EDIT: OTOH, the present tort law system makes lawyers very rich, at the expense of EVERYONE else. Damned if you do, and damned if you don't, with regards to healthcare/tort reform.

[ July 27, 2004, 04:50: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You're completely full of **** Norfleet. Please provide a link to where I've stated that "All life is sacred", as you seem to be implying that I've said. I expect you to either provide such a link, or apologize for lying about what I've stated. I've said that human always has value, but have said nothing about other, non-human anmals.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, you've certainly found a doctor who prescribes good psychedelics if you think the compensation and system here ensure the best health care. The doctors here are, by and large, overpaid, and have such good insurance that many don't feel a need to pay attention to what they're doing. Where I just came from in Florida, the _best_ local hospital had doctors amputating the wrong limbs, performing surgeries on the wrong people, and killing people by prescribing the wrong drugs.

Tort law does nothing to prevent this. And under many health plans, people don't even get a chance to go to tort law anyway - it goes to mediation, said mediation being people who are on the health plans' payrolls, deciding whether the outfit that gives their paychecks was right. Guess how they decide most of the time?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know - I got better health care in Colombia South America this New Years Eve. No medical insurance for that country, 5 in the evening New Years Eve - I waited in the emergency room for less than half an hour, saw a good doctor, was out in less than 1.5 hours total, and spent somewhat under $100, including two medications prescribed.

It's pretty flaming sad when a country as ... internally mangled as Colombia has better health service than the USA - with the health plan my employer gave me, as a $65,000 employee, I would have had to pay more, for worse treatment, at home.

Sure - rich Colombians come here for fancy operations. So do the ultra rich Russians, Saudis, etc, because everyone knows - rich people can get the _best_ treatment in the USA.

Fifty years ago, the average doctor earned about 5 times the average person's pay. The average CEO made about 10 times his average employee's salary. Today, the doctor makes 50 times the average pay in his area; the CEO makes 500 times the average employee's pay.

Capitalism is broken, at least in this country. For blood's sake, some of the richest and smartest capitalists in the country say so - Warren Buffet, Paul Allen, George Soros, etc.

When corporations were originally given equal status to human beings / citizens in this country, no one imagined a day when the corporations sole responsibility was to itself, its executives, and even more so, to its stock holders. A corporations prime responsibility is ... fiduciary. It has to make money for the stock holders, and damn everything else. Not just make money - but make the _most_ money.

Otherwise, the companies can, and have been, sued, for not maximizing the shareholders wealth.

Glad you like a country that, with one of the largest gaps between poor and rich in the world, has gone back to giving the rich huge tax cuts.

Feh.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I assume you can provide statistics to back up this claim, and can also show that the portion of people who get their health care in the U.S. has even a statistically significant effect on the overall quality of out health care.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The point of _any_ economic system is to create the most good for the most people. If your system doesn't do this, then there is a problem. That should also be the point of a health care system.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Please outline the difference between U.S. and Canadian tort law that makes U.S. health care safer.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Which is the point. Do you really like to build strawman arguments?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I'm still waiting for something other than your unsupported assertion that this is the case.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a medical condition known as a "bowel obstruction". It happens when your head is stuck up your ***. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I never said you said anything. Where'd you get that idea?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a medical condition known as a "bowel obstruction". It happens when one's head is stuck up one's ***. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">BTW, this painful, highly contagious, and potentially fatal malady (to others) is endemic amongst lawyers and politicans (the primary carriers of the disease), and it's severity is directly proportional to their strength of religious conviction. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess I could google for such things if they exist. I mean who the heck would track such a thing. Perhaps it would be evident from the MRI scandal in Alberta about 10 years ago. Or it would be evident from what you see around you. I mean you do know people who go the the US for anything serious ... don't you? And they don't go there due to the FDA being quick to aprove treatments ... that's the reason some knuckelheads go to Canada.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It seems that the point of capitalism is to create the most economic wealth. Pretty much period. As to how the wealth gets allocated that's how capitalism is messed up via some metrics.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I guess you have not been involved with in a malpractice suit in Canada. The standards of proof are far greater on the defendant. The awards much lower. The end result is that malpractice suits are brought forward far fewer times in Canada. Call up a lawyer. He will be happy to tell you all about it. Or make up a case then call a lawyer in Canada and ask him what he thinks, then ask a US lawyer. You will be amazed at the difference.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">... right ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yep allocation of funds has gotten out of hand in the US I'll agree. Although I think that your numbers are slightly off. The average doctor does not make x50 times the pay of the average salary ( that would be over 1,000,000 USD. Which is quite high for a doctor ) and only the top small percentage of CEO's make x500 time average pay. However I do conceed that CEO pay has gotten really out of hand. We need some real reform in the US to stop CEO's from naming their own board. Arthur Levitt has some really good ideas on this topic. Too bad they kicked him out. Best SEC chairman 3var.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Not at all happy about that. Let me tell you. Sure I benifited from it, but I think that the US works better with a proper functioning middle class. Which is why I made my donation to the DNC ( through my wife since I am not a citizen yet ), did you?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The point of capitalism is to create the most wealth for those with the capital, namely capitalists. That anyone else (such as workers) manages to benefit from this exercise in greed is incidental/accidental, and can be ascribed to democracy. Democracy is a tool that is beneficial to the capitalists only insofar as they can control it to better serve their goals. Thus you have what is seen in the U.S. today: a Congress that's a millionaire's club, beholden to corporate & wealthy donors, giving only lip service to the electorate's desires, and then only as much as is necessary to keep them in their positions of power and comfort. A Congress that is not subject to the same laws as the people who elect them.

There's a word for what we have: plutocracy. Or government of the wealthy, by the wealthy, for the wealthy. Not exactly what Abe had in mind in his famous Address.

BTW, speaking of the tools of democracy, and their usefulness to the plutocrats, you have only to look at Fox News. And anyone that ever doubted the propheticness of Orwell's 1984 only has to look at the Patriot Act, Echelon, Carnivore, John Ashcroft, (un)Justice Scalia, et cetera. I shudder to think what might come next. Truly scary.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">In young years you can't afford even a radiography if you broke your leg, so american system is quite supperior because you have to worrie it could happen and if it happens you can't afford a good treatment. Yes I see the point...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We aren't as bankrupt as the american state are. It is sure that our system isn't optimal, but it doesn't mean we have to desolidarized from our fellow but poorer countryman.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Thats what a certain (rich) part of the population wan't for sure, but I don't think so, or we would have to erase the "social" in the constitution, now (and I hope that it will be so in ten years) we are a social "marktwirtschaft" (sorry guys someone has to translate this one I can't).
And the problem in Germany are really different, what we need is a change in the mentality of the customers, who can afford and do (yes its true!!!),see three specialist for an illness.
I' still believe the German system is far superior not only in pure facts, but indirectly to, what is the reason of healthcare, education, etc... it is not to make a better economy, it is not to create greater profit for corps, it is only to assure citizen of the country that they can afford a life qualitiy without to worrie about the future, to make they have time to spend on interresting things in life (at least more interresting than planning how much money they need in case of illness, accident etc.).

P.S. are you affilied to the party known as the FDP?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

we need a political forum methinkest.
Sätt på e kol o skapa ett http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That would make too much sense, and thus ruin the perfectly good chaos that's reining here.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Better than JibJab.

Discuss.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you insist: the Toad short is stupid. It's not even funny, unless one considers as 'funny' things that are silly/senseless.

A far better short on the same site is here.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, if by "silly/senseless", you mean "nonfunctional", then yeah, I'd have to agree. I don't really see the humor in a badly written flash movie that consists entirely of a loading bar which runs from start to finish without having anything actually happen afterwards.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't get it. Is this an obscure reference to some aspect of modern culture that I'm unfamiliar with? It seemed to be consist of some guy with a sword or something in the dark. I couldn't really see much. The music was obnoxious and hurt my ears. I tried watching again with my night-vision goggles on, but I still didn't see anything interesting. What's the deal?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You neglected to click on the skull above that loading bar, after the bar filled up. Guess that was too complicated/subtle.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I didn't see a skull. The thing remained entirely black at all times. When does the skull normally appear?

And now it doesn't do anything at all, and just stays completely white when opened. Baffling. I think it might be broken.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I apologize for thinking you were simply being oblivious and/or dense. But it works for me no matter how many times I close the browser, restart it, and go back to the link. What browser & OS are you using? (I'm running XP pro & Mozilla 1.7.1, btw.)

EDIT: and do you have the latest Flash plug-in?

EDIT2: and what are your pop-up blocker settings, if any, as well as the Javascript settings for opening new windows?

[ July 27, 2004, 10:29: Message edited by: Arryn ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">If you can't find even the most basic of statistics, then you certainly can't claim that your argument is correct.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, I don't know _anyone_ who goes to the U.S. for any treatments whatsoever.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I thought you were saying that the tort system in the U.S. was a good thing, not that you were saying that it's so utterly broken that doctors are retiring rather than pay their insurance premiums even when they've never been sued.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And how often do you suppose that happens? Imagine how expeditiary our system of government would be if that were the norm? How many proposals look the same going out as they do coming in? Comprimise, scratching each others backs, whatever....is the name of the game.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Of course you did.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Cainehill, your remark about tax cuts for the rich is BS. I am not rich, and I got a check in the mail. If you didn't get yours, you didn't check your mail. Everyone who paid taxes got a return, unless you owed the gov't money. I find it funny that you think it's wrong for the "rich" to get a tax cut since they're the ones paying most of the taxes. Here you go, the IRS's report:

http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in01ts.xls

The top 50% of wage earners in the U.S. paid 96% of all taxes, and we all got money back. The top 5% of all wage earners pay something like 50% of all taxes. Incidentally, the gov't defines "rich" as making 90k/year. I'm pretty middle class and I was pretty damn happy to get some money back. Everyone got a tax cut, the "rich" just got a lot more back because they paid a lot more. I don't know why you don't like our economic system, it's not perfect and could definately be improved, but it's still the best in the world. You seem to think it's unfair somewhere but I'm telling you that 99% of peoples economic problems are their own doing. I still see people flocking to the U.S in droves, yet I don't see U.S. citizens flocking to other countries. Something good must be happening around this horrible country of ours.

[ July 27, 2004, 15:30: Message edited by: vigabrand ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

Viga, your post about tax cuts to Cainehill is full of fecal matter. As someone who was making over $70k/yr., well up in that "top 50%" Category, my tax cut amounted to a whopping $300, which is less than 2% of my annual tax burden. For that, I can look forward to far more than $300 in *increased* taxes later, when it eventually comes time to pay the piper and compound interest gets factored in. Debt is bad. Period. I don't pay credit card interest, and I resent like hell being forced to pay interest on the massive debts the government foolishly incurs in order to please corporate entities and wacko economists. "Supply-side" economics was proven to be a bankrupt ideology (to steal a phrase from Reagan) during the rosy years of Reagan and Bush Sr., and it's just as silly today under Bush Jr.. It simply does not work in the real world. But, we all know that Bush Jr. & friends do not live in the real world ...

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

I think you missed my point Arryn. The refund was not big, but everyone got one, not just the rich. It was our money to begin with and for the middle class, every little bit helps. You may not think so, so give it back. You dismiss my claims by claiming that you'll have to pay it all back and more later, then make opinions on whether certain economic plans work. I dunno, seems to be working to me. Seems we have the fastest economic growth in the Last 20 years. Seems Allen Greenspan agrees that the Bush tax cuts are responsible for the growing economy. Greenspan doesn't like the debt, but tax cuts do not always mean high deficits. Let's try trimming some of the fat off of pork projects, and lets start balancing the budget. It is my opionion that there is plenty of money in the pot to pay for necessities. Simple fact, congress pays for too much crap.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">first some questions cause i am quite unfamiliar with taxes in the usa unfortunately .
how much % of their income do "upper" ( 90k$+ ) , middle and low class have to pay in annual taxes ?

why are taxes increased in the future ? i don't understand that . lower taxes mean more consuming . the companies make even more profit and become even more competetive .
so with the lowered taxes expect in the very short run the tax income doesn't drop , most likely it even increases in the long run .

finally does the us government has some measures like tolls or political pressure which it can make if nothing else helps to keep the economy going .they are a bit immoral but this simply won't be necessary anyway as long as you keep republicans as presidents .
only bad thing is if you constantly switch between democrats and republicans and only thing they do is trying to abolish the things again which the former party did . but if there can be managed a constant policy from one party for 12 , 16 or 20 years this won't happen .

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps US citizens are just fat, dumb, and oblivious?

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's utter foolishness that, when you are already in debt up to your eyeballs, you incur more debt just to make yourself feel good. Which is just what the tax cuts accomplished. The government owed money before the cuts; it had already been spent, and the money for the cuts has to come from somewhere. That somewhere is taxpayers, and the debt must eventually be paid. If not by us, then our children, or their children. And the longer you take to pay a debt, the more money it costs you.

BTW, if you look at the numbers, the Iraq war is costing taxpayers about the same amount of money as the tax cuts. So not only is the government borrowing money it doesn't have to pay back taxpayers, it's borrowing even more money to pay for a war that the pre-tax cut budget hadn't accounted for. IOW, the Bushies have dug the hole twice (or more) as deep. A hole that need not have been dug at all.

If you want a tax cut, get your Congresscritters to stop SPENDING our money.

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would gladly have given back mine if I thought it would give back what it killed. It sure didnt carry over to this year. As middle-class homeowner with kids they keep saying I should be getting wonderul improvements but this appears to be a horrible year.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Really? I keep hearing that but all I see are lack of jobs, lack of services, and lack of feeling like things are going well. I dont tend to vote one way or the other but Im having trouble figuring out why this is supposed to be better than the Last guys term. I keep hearing it but personally it doesnt feel that way. And everyone I talk to seem to be in the same boat. Even the ones that agree with whats being said seem to not have any of those benefits in their own lives. They say things like "well of course personally things arent going well but the country is doing much better"

[ July 27, 2004, 16:54: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

Re: OT: Jibjab, Politics, the Big Bang and more!
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Because the money that the government borrows must be paid back with interest. Which means that if the government spends X dollars today for something (a war, tax cuts, whatever), then taxpayers must later pay taxes equal to X dollars + Y dollars of interest. X+Y > X

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">A flawed assumption. The extra money might be hoarded. Or it might be spent on items that do not lead to job growth, especially if producers retain profits rather than create jobs or if they spend the profits on paying shareholders. This Last item means you transfer wealth from the lower and middle classes (most consumers) to the upper class (most shareholders). And the upper class hoards money far more than they spend it, so it doesn't cycle back. It just concentrates at the top.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Companies are *less* competitive when profits are high because they aren't needing to work as hard at getting their customers to pay.