Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unfortunately, this works entirely in his favor, because now the AI is controlling BOTH of your units. Thus, the AI always has full control, and can do whatever it wishes, whereas you can't.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL. And he is still not geting it. Oh well, since I wouldn't want to continue what some people feel is namecalling, all I can say is: No future comments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i think here you don't get norfleets point :
i understand it that norfleet means :

the ai can give orders to each unit the whole battle while you can only give indirect orders for the first 5 actions .

under this viewpoint norfleets statement is quite true and even wisely http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

so the ai has full control of every unit while you have only really little control for the first few turns if you give orders yourself . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oh, I understand what Norfleet means very well Boron. It is he who is not able to grasp my explanations.

Norfleet is simply confused by his own terminology. He thinks that because both tactical AI, which is more precisely just an automatic battlefield spell selection algoritm, and Strategic AI - who is your real computer opponent , are both programs and can be both roughly called "AI", that means that they are somehow part of the same evil "computer opponent", who is out there to get him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

As a senior software engineer with background in AI programming, I can tell you that tactical AI and Strategic AI have absolutely nothing to do with each other. "Tactical AI" is just a simple tool, which works exactly the same for all human and computer players, and which can be used by both your and Strategic AI - who is your real opponent.

Botton line is - the tactical battlefield AI do not give any unfair advantage to computer opponents. It works exactly the same for human and computer opponents, and humans have an option to using it from the begining, by switiching mages to "spells", if they choose to. Unlike computer-controlled players though, humans can also scrip first 5 spells manualy, if they choose to. Strategic AI obviosly lack this option, by being, duh, AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ August 02, 2004, 23:37: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Either you are making a joke here or you have a wrong understanding on what tha AI actually is.

You make it sound as if the AI tried to make you lose by giving your troops bad commands. That's wrong. The AI is not some kind of entity inside your PC that is out there to beat you. Your troops will be given those commands that the AI assumes is best suited for your success. She does this for both sites, so there is really no advantage for anyone. Lets say that both armies are equally skillfully lead. If you script your own command chain, you will propably make a script that is supperior compared to those the AI does, giving you an advantage.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

don't want to quote again stormbinder this would fill the half page http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
hm i really thought that perhaps really the computer opponent tactical ai is another a bit cleverer than your own tactical ai if you either don't script or if 5 turns have passed .

because i think that would be fair if the ai has a slightly better battlefield ai then the player battlefield ai so that there are 2 slightly different battlefield ais .

so i thought perhaps norfleet has discovered this . in the starting of the post too the guess was made the computer ai may perhaps still use dominion 1 battle orders .

so it was basically wish thinking by me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
ai's just need some advantages to be really competetive for expierienced players http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

it wouldn't make sense to program two seperate combat algorythms for the human players and the AI controlled players. Dominions is all about role playing accuracy. And as far as I can see, there's no sense in one army behaving differently then another simply because it's controlled by the computer.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It does. Witness "The AI makes your pretender uselessly cast junk spells until it passes out and dies".

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes it is. Otherwise, there wouldn't be much point to playing against it, would you? Who wants to play an opponent that doesn't try to beat you? This is boring.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, the AI gives commands that are best suited for *ITS* success....not yours. If you leave a unit simply on "no orders", the unit will NOT behave like it does when the AI is controlling it.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The strategic AI doesn't NEED this option, because he already has full control of his tactics. The tactical AI *IS* an extension of the strategic AI. It does exactly what he wants it to do. The same cannot be said for you, as the tactical AI never does what you want it to do beyond the level you can force it to do so.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI definitely does different things that you cannot possibly do, as evidence from the original poster shows, and is far more reactive. This is because the AI is able to "script orders", as it were, on the fly, right before the battle starts, rather than having to guess. Notice how you will never, ever, catch the AI having been scripted to fight someone else, and his mages never charge you with a spoon for no comprehensible reason. Note also how, if left up to the AI, your pretender will be allowed to cast spells until it faints from exhaustion....but the AI's pretender won't do this: You can easily witness the AI's pretender casting its spells, and then ATTACKING YOU.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, this is untrue. It makes perfect sense: The AI's combat algorithms are often more sophisticated specifically because it has to oppose you, whereas the "friendly force" algorithms are simplistic and designed to, at best, make a feeble attempt to prod the player, who's supposed to be playing the game, in the right direction. If the AI did everything for you, you wouldn't need to play the game. In Soviet Russia, the game plays you!

[ August 03, 2004, 00:46: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could achieve exactly the same thing by placing all your commanders on "stay behind troops" or "cast spells".

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I assume that you can actually provide an example of this, since anybody who isn't trying to mislead new players won't have seen this behaviour.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You mean other than the fact that I've seen it happen before? I don't exactly play a lot of SP anymore, you know, but you can definitely see it happen, which clearly indicates the AI isn't just set on default orders, and *IS* actually making decisions. What exactly do you want as an example? A screenshot? Because I can hardly go around posting my MP turns anywhere, since they'd be passworded and unreadable.

[ August 03, 2004, 01:42: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeap, that is absolutely correct. The only possible very rare exception is the topic of this very thread, as I said myself earlier. And that had nothing to do with choosing of which spells to cast. Accursing developers of malicious intend to secretly screw the player by forcing him to use "bad" spell-selecting algoritm, while strategic AI got to use the differnt "uber" spell selecting algoritm is very... errr... strange. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

i've never seen an AI pretender cast more than 5 spells and then go on to attack. If the unit were berserk, of course that could happen, but otherwise no.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

" Accursing developers of malicious intend to secretly screw the player by forcing him to use "bad" spell-selecting algoritm, while strategic AI got to use the differnt "uber" spell selecting algoritm is very... errr... strange."

ROFL well, never underestimate the mind of a programmer lol.. maybe the devs got tired of hearing all you veterans kicking the snot out of the AI (which I'm sure they worked very hard on) so they decided to curse all of you (or maybe just Norfleet) with bad algorythms, meanwhile all the newbies got copies of the game with the same combat algorythms as the AI. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeap. It never happens AFAICT.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:57: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">LOL. Probably just Norfleet. After he publicly accursed devs of installing spyware on his computer few patches ago, maybe they have decided to throw him another bone, to keep him happy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[ August 03, 2004, 02:56: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I've seen an AI pretender do this in DM against another AI. I don't remember who vs who, but one cast spells until completely fatigued, the other cast spells, wasn't as fatigued, then just came and whacked them on the head repeatedly with a spoon until they died.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

There we go, we have a witness. It happens.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"><shrug> It may be unique to Deathmatch event, which is a special case in several regards, it may be a bug, it may be another ultra-rare legacy artifact from Dom1, it may wrong observation. I've played probably a hundred SP games, and never seen it happen. So even if it exist, it is so rare that it can be disrgarded, just like "attack commander" artifact from Dom1 game.


You can bet your *** that there are no two different algoritms for human mages and for computer mages. If it would be the case, than we all would witness it all the times, not a once-in-a-lifetime observation or anecdotical evidence.

In any case your false logic in general about dinamic AI and strategic AI having "principle advantage" over human player because "computer is always in control of thier troops, unlike human who in control for only 5 turns" just clearly shows that you don't understand what you are talking about. You are just trying to change a topic.

[ August 03, 2004, 05:17: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">When a mage runs out of spell options he is likely to run into combat (say, you have only researched a couple personal buffs and no range offensive spells, and have already cast the first ones on all legal targets), so this certainly doesn't prove anything.

JK doesn't like coding AI, why would he go through the pain of coding 2 different AI rutines when coding just one is a chore for him? Norfleet is just being paranoid.

[ August 03, 2004, 07:26: Message edited by: Wendigo ]

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

Hmm, quoting myself...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">TO be more precise I believe the mage defaults to 'stay behind troops', yet, if there are no troops to stay behind (as it's very likely in a DM) that results in the seen behaviour.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"> <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, but this does not support your statement. You said this would only happen to player pretenders. Smauler says it happens to AI pretenders too.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

you've gotta be pretty bored to get into these arguments.. (and by "you" I mean everyone in this thread except for the original poster&replies) but i'll admit its quite amusing

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are right, I have so much time to say that every other post here has any topic related content except yours. Now who is wasting time?

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

sorry.. i work with a college, and this thread reminded me of the committee meetings I have with them sometimes, where hours are spent discussing semantics or shifting the subject to try to come out on top as the "winner" of the argument.

its very academic. i've learnt to laugh at it rather then get frustrated by it. Besides, if it's engaging, then its time well spent (truth of any good form of entertainment, and why controversial topics are so popular). and this thread has been very engaging, despite its lack of educational value.

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a well-known fact that Dominions players have no life. If they did, would they be here? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's a well-known fact that Dominions players have no life. If they did, would they be here? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">true enough.. i've spent many hours readin through your AAR thread Arryn, starting from the beginning, and I'm still not caught up! LOL

although the trick to having a life and playing Dominions is the precious laptop! being a turn based game without a sense of urgency in the turns, you can take the addiction to a new level by squeezing in a few turns where you'd otherwise be sitting around doing nothing

Re: Underestimate the AI: Reap the consequences.
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah, another fan! hehe

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And this reply of mine is being written on my laptop -- which doesn't have Dom 2 installed on it ... yet (it does have JA2, Civ3, and Diablo 2, though; it's an old 600MHz laptop).