Re: Dammit
 

Yeah, not that this thread was originally about anything important, you understand.

Re: Dammit
 

As a general rule (FWIW), yes we do.

Wonder all you want ...

Indeed.

Headfirst. Bethesda (of Morrowind fame) is the publisher. The game's web page can be found here .

EDIT: the game's been delayed to Feb. of next year, dammit. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Nope. Graeme beat you to it many months ago. It's been a well-established fact that we mutually despise one another. (Ditto NTJedi.) While GD and I have been civil to one another recently (more a case of just ignoring each other), I'm sure it's merely a temporary abberation and things will return to their normal, heated level, eventually. Well, either heated, or half-baked. It's hard to tell at times.

So, you have a long, long ways to go before you achieve a level of animus that will place you in the exalted ranks of Norfleet et. al. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Dammit
 

Actually, it wasn't. The topic has been beaten to death (and beyond) over the past 6-8 months. There have been oodles of threads on it. (Do a search and see for yourself.) The devs have, repeatedly, said they don't see anything amiss with the system as is, and the majority of players agree with them. People whining about the subject once or twice a month has achieved, and will achieve, nothing. Well, nothing other than annoying the devs and those who don't feel that the system is broken.

Re: Dammit
 

warcraft 3 was the biggest disappointment i ever had with a game .
i were a REALLY HUGE fan of blizzard until warcraft 3.
i loved starcraft and diablo 2 .
but warcraft is not a strategygame but a tactical game which is quite brainless .
the SP campaign is actually somewhat entertaining but warcraft 3 multiplay is so stuid + brainless .

your 90 population limit + the heros ruin the game completely .
resourcemanagement is totally unimportant you just need to make 1-2 heros + 10 of the cheapest troops and then kill all monsters for gold + levels and kill the enemy .

you have a real lack of strategies there . just RUSH,RUSH,RUSH .

with 90 population you never have more than about 20-30 soldiers .
and normally you only go to 70 population because the resourcemalus 70% to 40% is not worth the 20 extra population .

so the game is just based around rush + your hero(s) .

a big step backwards compared to starcraft .
furthermore it is completely baffling to me that even in warcraft 3 you can't group more than 12 units in one group ( you don't need it there though ) .

in starcraft every unit had its use and the 200 supply limit was ok . there you could e.g. make a zealots rush , or tech to templers / air force etc.
you could either focus on micro or on macro .
both strats were viable .

in warcraft 3 it is reduced to hero micro .

ok enough complaining about warcraft 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

in dominions the rout system as it is is perfect.

otherwise i would not build any armies at ALL and just mages + scs .
would be very boring .
this way i have to decide either using 1 sc or using an army + mages . each kind of army has its advantages and disadvantages .

if commanders wouldn't autorout there would really be for 90% of the nations NO need for any armies anymore .

Re: Dammit
 

That dubious honor, for me, is reserved for MOO3. MOO3 gets [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

Other notable lemon awards for recent, disappointing, highly-hyped games go to:

Beyond Divinity - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Chrome - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Lionheart - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
JA2:Wildfire - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

Deus Ex: IW - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]
Victoria - [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

But WC3 does earn [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img][img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon37.gif[/img]

Re: Dammit
 

Blimey Arryn, don't you have a sense of humour? Or are you just so stupid that you need everything spelt out with an icon?

"Whining about the subject", if it continues to explore other options and pros and cons, will eventually lead to the game becoming even better, which is what everybody wants. It is supremely arrogant of you to consider the subject closed simply because a majority agrees with you.

CC

Re: Dammit
 

Ive scrolled back a page full of Posts and couldnt quite pin down what it WAS that anyone was "whining" about. This thread is in danger.

Re: Dammit
 

It is "supremely arrogant" of you to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is "stupid". It's also childish of you to resort to name-calling in order to make your point.

I never said it was closed. I *implied* that it's a waste of time. A distinction that you don't seem able to grasp. Perhaps if you'd ceased ranting at me long enough to actually read what I wrote, you wouldn't have missed that small, yet important detail.

Re: Dammit
 

oh what is ja2 : wildfire ?
i loved basic jagged alliance 2 and i even bought 1 expansion disk for it which was not too good but i don't remember the name .

what do you not like with victoria ?
i like paradox games but since i discovered dominions they now seem so inferior http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

i personally like victoria basically and think it is good but the revolution system is very unpleasant there and stopped me from playing it more .
conquering china is a nightmare http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif
each day lots of revolutions for 10 or 20 years until nationalism is gone http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
1 division in each province is enough to kill all rebels but with the size of china that are 200+ divisions which are not so easy to achieve in victoria .

eu 2 is a really nice game but too simple and gets boring once you have 100+ provinces .

hoi is great but after researching all techs it becomes boring too and with the stupid convoy / supply system world conquest is hard work there not really enjoyable too .
it is easy but hard / unpleasant work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

victoria has enough complexity but the revolution system is just stupid there with daily revolutions .


i am really looking forward to hoi 2 though because i hope it combines all strength of the paradox games .
a victoria without revolutions but dissent like in hoi i would really enjoy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

hoi 2 seems to become a good combo of hoi + victoria http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Dammit
 

p.s.

arryn how long did you play eu 2 , hoi , victoria ?
have you ever finished a wc in any of those 3 ?

i was always bored before i reached that . in hoi i stopped as germany after russia + britain were dead and the usa had no airforce left and was ripe to invasion .
in eu 2 i always stopped after controlling about 150 provinces ( about 2/3 of europe ) because i saw no further challenge .

victoria i haven't played so much because shortly after getting victoria i discovered dominons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Dammit
 

Arryn and everyone else egging him on: chill out. this forum doesnt need any more flamewars.


back to the subject of the post. here is magnate's suggestion which was buried in all the babble:

sounds like a good solution, but if the devs dont feel like changing it i must admit the current system works well enough

Re: Dammit
 

You have an interesting tendency to try to score points by twisting what other people write. I never said you were stupid because you disagree with me. I said you were stupid because you gave a serious response to an obviously jocular post.

If you really want to be pedantic, stupid is an adjective, not a name. Was it childish not to use a euphemism instead? Perhaps.

You also try to make people feel small by quoting their own text back at them, usually out of context. I can really see why some people dislike you. You give female gamers a very bad name.

Again, you are trying to present yourself as in some way superior, this time by drawing utterly an spurious distinction between your choice of words and mine to describe the same thing.

If you actually allowed people to disagree with you, you wouldn't have to argue so hard.

CC

Re: Dammit
 

An expansion pack for $20, which is essentially a buggy-as-hell and unsupported-by-anyone mod. You'd do much better, by far, to download the excellent mod Urban Chaos from this site .

The list is long. It begins with the massive lack of documentation for a game that is very complex (much more complex than HoI) and not at all intuitive. It continues with the enormous number of major bugs the game continues to have. And it ends with the fact that underneath it all is the lame Paradox AI which is in all the EU-engined games and that cripples SP play in EU2, HoI, and Victoria. I've condensed my gripes into 3 brief sentences, but the depth of my dislike for the game is much more detailed and lengthy. This isn't the forum for airing such, so I'm trying to spare disinterested readers a long rant on it.

It's too easy as a human to conquer the world in HoI SP, even with pathetically small nations, nevermind military/economic powerhouses like Germany. As Germany, I have won "WW2" by the end of 1939, by the end of 1940 I have an empire that would have been the envy of Imperial Rome or Alexander, and by the end of 1941 there is nothing to stop me from total world conquest long before the game's deadline (or anyone else's possible development of atomic weapons, not that even atomic bombs could stop me). The AI is just not even remotely up to the task of handling a game this complex. But to Paradox's credit, they've at least exposed the AI to user modification, which has turned a game that I otherwise would have shelved 2 years ago into something that still resides on my HDD. I wish that IW would do likewise and open up the Dom 2 AI to user modification.

Re: Dammit
 

Oops, sorry, replied too quickly. Promise I won't respond to the next one. Arryn is a she, btw.

Thanks for bring that back to the foreground. I played my first few games with standard troops and only really got into SCs thanks to Boron suggesting I check out ice devils. Only now do I see how odd it is that they flee when the chaff is killed even if they themselves are untouched. I'd really like a word from the devs on this. Maybe there's a reason why it wouldn't work. In the poll thread Boron said it would make battlemages too powerful, but I don't understand that. They don't usually have very high morale - and even if they did stay on the battlefield, they might well die once all the cannon fodder is gone.

CC

Re: Dammit
 

No. I haven't that much patience for something that's inevitable.

In HoI, about the same point. In EU2, once I've knocked out 2 of the 3 major powers (Spain, France, and Britain) the outcome isn't in doubt and it's only a matter of time. I played EU2 just to read the passing event Messages. The game itself presented no strategic challenge in SP. I stopped playing the game because Paradox never fixed some rather glaring bugs (bugs other than the lame AI).

I, too, discovered Dom 2 shortly after getting Vicky. Dom 2 saved me from wasting countless hours trying to work around Vicky's problems.

Re: Dammit
 

that would actually be really cool. i mean, that way you can always have a semi-balanced game vs the AI by modding it to be similar to your skill level

Re: Dammit
 

I hadn't considered that particular application. Not a bad idea at all.

What I had in mind is such things that people complain about such as AI spellcasting behavior, AI troop-building preferences, that units commanded to attack the enemy's rear actually attack the rear (and not the rear of the closest unit), etc. etc.

Oh, and we could throw routing behavior into the pot while we're at it. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon24.gif[/img]

Re: Dammit
 

a question :
did you play all paradox games with the newest patches ?

they get more challenging this way.
i am not sure but i think you haven't perhaps .

in eu 1.08 you earn much less money and inflation is harder to combat . diplo sliders are much better too .
so it becomes a bit more challenging .

hoi in 1.06 the greatly improved the ai .
russia has there normally about 300 divisions in 1939/40 so the early victory with germany is not so easy anymore .
and the ai lands more than 1-2 units on beachheads .

it is still from good but a big improvement to all patches before .


finally curious about vicky :
with 1.03b the latest patch i played it it was quite good most bugs were gone .

i don't really get your point about the manual .
for victoria fans made wickyvicky or called similiar it is like the manual addenda from liga .
and the discussion on victoria board was good too so with victoria manual it is exactly the same like with the dominions manual it is ok but leaves many questions open .

the ai in victoria is probably the worst though still http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

what i hate with all paradox games that they only force you indirect to not grow too big too soon .
not the ai stops you but in eu 2 revolutions from different religions + really huge stability costs .
in vicky the same but more severe .


the real problem though is that they ALL lack depths :
everybody has the same armies when he researches all techs .
so it is simply getting a bigger army + using the right troops but thats really easy since there are only about 10-15 different types .

unfortunately you can reduce it to 1-2 types :
in hoi the light 12 speed tanks for encirclement + marines with artillery brigade .
in vicky guards , tanks/artillery for special purposes .

all disappointing [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

the only game which comes close here to dominions 2 is master of orion 2 (perhaps space empires is similiar i haven't played it though because iirc it is realtime and i prefer turn based http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

Re: Dammit
 

if they would stay without troops i would guard them with some antisc SCS .
the battlemages would be quite save and do all the killing with their spells .

your point with 1 pd and then the SCS routing is very good .
If you attack you can send more than 1 SC in . it is dangerous though because if one is killed all flee .

for the PD issue there is only 1 solution which is expensive : make immortal SCS they don't rout in positive dominion which you should have in your own provinces .
wraith lords are excellent scs but very expensive .


panthers suggestion is bad because as you said this way SCS would never rout because they never fail a morale check . this would make them too powerful .
furthermore it would make one key feature of immortality useless : not routing in friendly dominion !

illwinter has really done an impressive job here with the current routing system . it is not intuitive and perhaps not realistic but balancewise it is perfect .

Re: Dammit
 

You didn't use a smiley. And you're bloody stupid if you think or expect that people can tell when you're trying to be jocular in a pure text medium when you _don't_ use emoticons or some other means to display the mood in which something was written.

This is a longtime problem with the internet and text mediums. Intelligent people, and even rutabagas if they're been on the net long enough, figured this out and use things like " http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif " or " <sarcasm> ... </sarcasm> " or whatnot.

You don't have the clues of tone of voice, of body language, and usually not even the benefit of some knowledge of the other person.

And you posted a one liner that was at least as easily interpretted as sarcasm or bitterness than good natured humor / joking.

That's ... not particularly bright. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And even worse is your response of indignity because someone didn't have the telepathy to know how you meant it!

Oh - that'll be five pounds for the tutoring in basic communications theory 101. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Oh, Goddess forbid that anyone use what someone wrote against them! Maybe you'd prefer that they editting your words, misattributed who said what, and used subtle innuendo in conjunction with the words that you didn't exactly say? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm also curious how Arryn used what you wrote out of context. After all - it _was_ just a one line sentence of a post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hard to use that out of context.

But hey! On a lighter note, I appreciate the fact that you're working to make _my_ gender look bad, because it makes me look better in comparison. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Cheerio!

Re: Dammit
 

Yes, I have.

Those are peripheral issues to other things that are fundamentally wrong with the game, the worst being the AI.

I play HoI with 1.06c and CORE 0.84. CORE makes the game much more realistic and challenging, yet it still falls far short of being truly challenging in SP. Unlike Dom 2.

My BF disagrees, and he still plays the game (unlike me).

There are some really ugly and ridiculously unrealistic/ahistorical things that happen in Vicky after the turn of the century if you're deemed by the AI(s) as a "threat".

IMO, Paradox is very good at conceptualizing / designing games, but not very good at implementing them. Their biggest shortcoming is a marked lack of usability testing, which would quickly reveal the numerous UI flaws in their games. They also desperately need someone with experience in AI (preferably neural-net AI). Of course, people with experience in AI are in severely short supply in the entire gaming industry. It's just that the games that most need good AI (ie: strategy games) are often the ones with the worst AIs. Probably has something to do with the genre's popularity and typical budgets.

SE4 is TB. So is GalCiv. You should try both.

The Last RT grand strategy game I played (prior to EU/EU2/HoI/Vicky) was Star Wars Rebellion. A game that should have been TB. RT brought nothing good to the game. Especially since the morons who made the game didn't allow for orders while the game was paused.

Re: Dammit
 

There is nothing that distinguishes a SC from any other commander. Commanders rout when their armies rout. Mages and commanders rarely can stand up to an army by themselves. Therefore commanders follow their routing armies.

SC's are exceptions in that you want them to fight on. The categorization of a SC is highly subjective. Is a Banelord an SC? Is a Banelord with a wraith sword an SC? Is your Wight mage with a wraith sword an SC? The Lamia queen with a wraith sword and an active astral shield might well work as a SC, but you would never want your pretender arch mage with the same equipment to fight on when the enemy army has beaten your troops.

The rout rules allows an exeption to lone commanders. Therefore SC's and pretender monsters can conquer provinces by themselves, but if they follow and lead armies they are subject to the normal routing rules.

There are other reasons as well. Do you want me to elaborate or is this OK for now? (I almost fell in the teacher trap and asked you to come up with two other reasons the rout works as it does http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif )

Re: Dammit
 

I just assumed it was pretty clear. Here's an example. If I am a badass and all powerful SC alone against a large enemy army, I will often slaughter everything on the field. If I am a badass and all powerful SC who has a small contingent of archers supporting me, we'll all rout off the field in the first turn.

That's goofy, that's non-intuitive. Not explaining it wasn't an attempt to take a shot at the devs by calling it goofy and non-intuitive; I just thought that the problems with the routing system were pretty obvious.

It may work as a *game*, because you can learn the system and start to do non-obvious things (like don't support your badass commanders). That doesn't say that it couldn't be changed so that it made more sense.

Re: Dammit
 

Cainehill gets today's Knight in Shiny Armor award { http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../beerglass.gif } for his valiant efforts at rescuing the damsel from the perfidious assaults of the vile Saxon ruffian [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon19.gif[/img].

Re: Dammit
 

Because unless you have a good reason for making something the opposite of what is intuitive and normal, you are creating a barrier for entry to new players that doesn't need to be there.

I kept playing the game, but I've got to tell you that I've rolled my eyes on more than a few occasions at having strange things happen in the routing system (oh look, my badass pretender just routed because the lion I brought into battle ran away).

Re: Dammit
 

But, as Kris so aptly said a few Posts above, how does the game know that you're a "badass"? The game has no idea what's a SC and what's not.

BTW, I didn't think you were taking a shot at the devs (though I can see how you might think that I thought that). I simply thought that they weren't going to pay much attention to adjectives lacking any further explanation. In the context in which you consider the issue, yes it might appear "goofy". But the system is consistent, once one understands it. And I don't think anyone's ever claimed that Dom 2 is "intuitive". Far from it. If it was, this forum wouldn't be nearly so busy.

Re: Dammit
 

So what we have is????
commander with troops
should be done when you want the commander to rout after his troops are gone
commander with no troops
the SC you want to fight on until he is the Last guy standing and takes alot of damage

and then isnt there
commander with guards
not so likely to rout when troops die off but will if guards die off

and of course there is always the random variables in the rolls which make it a chance of happening anyway no matter how the battle is going. It all sounds like a pretty good spread. The only thing left open is some cases where you done get to choose which of the Categorys your commander is in. Such as Moloch with his imps (being discussed in another thread)

Re: Dammit
 

No, you don't have to have a good reason at all for making things awkward. It just happens. Typically because the designers fail to give sufficient consideration to a game's usability. This is often most evident in game UI. How many games have we seen which don't allow for in-mission saves (Giants, Starship Troopers, etc.)? Or hotkeys for common actions (Dom 2 is guilty of this to a degree)? Or a need for an excessive amount of clicking and wading through menus (MOO3)? Or a lack of having all the info you need to (micro)manage your empire readily at hand in easy-to-digest screens (Dom 2 could stand some improvement here as well)? As for keeping such awkwardness? That happens when the perceived (by the devs) cost/benefit ratio of fixing such issues is outweighed by the effort involved or other priorities (or, in the case of some games, devs who are blind to their product's shortcomings, or too stubborn to do anything about it, or who won't fix things unless they get paid for it).

Re: Dammit
 

your sc can be totally badass but he still hasn't a chance alone against special armies who are cheaper than the sc but antisc .

but when you take troops with him he is no longer a sc but with the army he is extremely brutal .

if you take with you just a few archers than it is your fault and simply stupid .
you did just wrong scripting / troop chose :
just take a few 50 morale troops with hold orders ( like vine ogres ) or if you want to really support him take with devils or something like this .
this way routing is extremely unlikely .

the only thing you lose is magic movement when you rely on cloud trapeze .


so i don't see why you are all complaining at all because the solutions are so simple :

SC + cloud trapeze against weaker armies

give the sc an army against stronger enemies but lose cloud trapeze . you can still teleport though or fairy trod or stygian path for magic movement .



if you chose the RIGHT troops the army is no curse but a real bless .



an almost perfect routing blocker is the siege golem .
immune to all kinds of magic , high protection + hp + siege ability .
scripted to hold + attack closest even 1 siege golem is haaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrdddddddddddd to kill .
with the 2 turns of waiting your scs are already in meelee or buffed .
so the siege golem isn't attacked severe most probably at all .


early game : vine ogres as routing preventers , late game 1-2 lone siege golem(s) .

Re: Dammit
 

and the flamer of the year award for trying to rekindle another's argument and partake in it himself

but what is the problem with panther's suggestion; making it morale based. thus, a commander with 30 morale and hardly any damage/fatigue, probably an SC, will stick around, but a commander with 10 morale and 60 fatigue will run off, probably a mage.

Re: Dammit
 

sorry but how can you say dom 2 is challenging in SP ? dominions 2 really shines in MP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

but in sp it is like HoI and most other strategy games . perhaps slightly better but in sp if you chose special nations : ryleh , ermor , pan cw there is no challenge at all .
almost the same with abysia / mictlan when you use blood heavy .
after earlygame no challenge
to a slightly lesser extent true with all the magically extreme flexible nations like pythium / arco .
if you survive until midgame no challenge too just clamhoard + make lots of uberscs , battlemages with strong troops etc.


dominions 2 is only challenging in sp if you take first special houserules and second take the nation who does worst under this special houserules .
furthermore you have to forbid yourself the use of scs.


the only way i see is as tauren suggested to let Users mod ai scripts . this way i could perhaps make the ai use my own battlescripts for lategame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif if it is possible then everybody can make 1-2 scripts for his favourite nation(s).
then everybody sends them to illwinter or better somebody with lots of patience + insight ( like zen + gandalf ) and he choses 4-5 scripts for each nation which he thinks are extremely good .
then the ai always choses random one of these scripts and would probably play really good .


strategy games are with shooters the most popular genre .

blizzard with starcraft or microsoft with age of empires 2 had surely a huge budget .
especially the starcraft ai was not bad .
but it is easy with only about 25 units in total . if you have this in mind the ai was VERY poor once you had mp experience .

in a game with a friend we 2 won always against 6 ais on the hunters .

alpha zentauri has imo a quite good ai though .
in magic the gathering the ai used their decks quite well too given that it is almost as complex as dominions ( about 800 different cards i think with both extensions ).
these 2 games are positive examples for a quite good ai .
a third one is heroes of might and magic 1-3 .

what is your impression of starcraft ?
i think it is still the best true RTS game .

i have star wars rebellion myself but with pause like the paradox games it is basically TB . star wars rebellion was not as good as master of orion and the star wars bonus was not enough to compensate though i love starwars .

i was interested in trying Galactic civs but i heard that it is not deep and too simple and according to reviews / screenshots i believed it .

i will give space empires probably a closer look though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dammit
 

the problem is with panthers suggestion mages rout easier .

as it is if you take some strong troops with your mages they almost NEVER rout ( until they fail a morale check in melee ) .

with your suggestion the mages have to do a moralecheck everytime an army routs so much more moralechecks and they will rout more often .


in the current system leaders can rout too if they are severely wounded . so it is already like your suggestion with the only exeption that once there is no army present + 1 leader dies all expect berserk + immortal leaders rout automatically .



the current system is imo really great .
your suggestions would imo be not improvements but worsenings http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
as it is it is very very balanced .

with your suggestion troops would become totally unimportant and scs would become even stronger .

Re: Dammit
 

lemme guess... BGH, not the real hunters. what do you expect? of course the AI sucks on lame *** money maps; that was not the way the game was intended to be played. you could never win a 2v6 on any REAL map ( unless you exploit the problem with them chasing you all over the place with their workers at the beginning if you attack them, but that is no better than cheating ).

i hate how the starcraft community does nothing but play those [censored] up maps with endless money [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img] really screws up the game and now it isnt fun to play any more

Re: Dammit
 

no it was NORMAL hunters .
on bgh i could win myself against 4-5 ais easy .

we 2 vs the 6 ais on normal hunters was challenging but not too hard .

we both played protos , builded 10-20 photon cannons on the entry to our base + 10-20 berserks .
this holded off the ai long enough .
then lots of scouts + some corsairs and we took one ai after the other out .

only the initial rush is a problem and can fail if you are very unlucky . but against 6 random ais we won most of our games .


one of my friends got internet later then me . he developed a special berserkerrush where he could win against 7 zerg ais alone .

Re: Dammit
 

It's not stupid unless you know how the system works.

There is nothing such thing as common sense in computer programmed actions, only what devs consider rational solutions and responses to given situations. Responses have to be based on anticipated results and problems as well as simplicity.

The current system does not reflect common sense in every situation. It is a rule that is be based on common sense and general utilability (is this an english word at all?).

If you understand the premises the rule is (hopefully) acceptable.

Adjustments could be done, but it would risk making the system opaque and more unintuitive. The current system gives the player control if s/he is aware of how the rules work.

Re: Dammit
 

First, I don't think you understand what a flame is, if you think that was a flame, and most definately if you think that would come close to a "flame/flamer of the year award". Perhaps you haven't been on the internet long....

I gave Magnate information he didn't consider, and if I used the word 'stupid', well - that word had certainly been flying back and forth already. It wasn't a flame - it was an abrasively toned educational post, and there is a big difference between the two.

What are the problems with this? For one: all Pretenders and Prophets have a morale of 30. So, let's see - a Crone pretender with her whopping 9 base HPs is going to stick around after her knights and infantry have been slaughtered. Likewise the 10 HP mage pretender will keep on casting spells until surrounded and killed. Say, this is a great idea! After all, the first hit they take, they'll almost certainly finally rout.

Oops. First hit they take, they're probably dead. Oh well - no biggie, people aren't taking light weight human-ish rainbow Pretenders anyways, right?

On the other paw, it lets big honking SCs bring in a bunch of chafe to soak up casualties for them while they're casting their buffs. The chafe finally routs and gets out of the SCs way.

So, it also makes SCs a lot more powerful, as though they really need that.

If a commander brings troops, it presumably has a use for them. If the troops get slaughtered (or run away), that commander presumably doesn't want to stay on the field.

If it _does_ want to stay on the field, it should either not bring the troops, or bring troops that will stay alive long enough for the SC to do its work.

There's a number of ways to manage this; the simplest is to take a crippled foot soldier, stick him in a rear corner with "Hold and Attack" orders.

Yes, some of the things you have to do are counter-intuitive, but this isn't a military simulation / tactical model, and doesn't pretend to be.

The main thing that seems to be broken is that commanders route because wimpy summonses got killed or routed : phantasmal warrior, the Moloch's imps, a skeleton, etc.

Re: Dammit
 

you misunderstood me completely kristoffer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

this argument was thought to convince Sly Frog that he just didn't use his scs clever assigning them a few archers and complaining they rout . so i wanted to show him that not the system is to blame but he himself is to blame because he made a "stupid" fault .



[/quote] here e.g. i wrote that i think that the current morale system is really great and can't be improved furthermore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dammit
 

I had a great deal of fun with Starcraft years ago. And with the expansion pack for it. I've even occasionally reinstalled and played it over the past few years -- when I'm feeling nostalgic and super-bored.

Fans of Kohan would argue with you over which game is "best". And I'm sure that some C&Cer would chime in if their game(s) weren't mentioned (though C&C isn't even in the same league as Starcraft or Kohan).

SW Rebellion isn't "basically TB" using its pause, since you cannot issue orders while paused, unlike with the Paradox games. I no longer will play RT games in which you cannot issue orders while paused. Rebellion wiped out any tolerance I had for that.

Re: Dammit
 

i would like to see you stop a 6 AI rush with 10-20 cannons, boron
not to mention when they rush you cant possible on a non-money map have more than 5 cannons

btw sorry about that OT rant... guess i need an anger management course

Re: Dammit
 

i said with canons + berserkers .

and if all 6 ais attack me my partner tries to help too .


if 3-4 of the ais are protos and run the berserk rush script then you lose maybe but otherwise you always hold with the canons + the berserkers .

Re: Dammit
 

Without getting into great detail I just have to say I love Paradox games (but always wait until patch 3+ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). I also love Dom2, but I think Paradox vs. IW is an apples to oranges comparison, and there's no real way to come up with a "winner".

I tend to think of Paradox games (all that I've played anyhow: HOI, Vicky, EU II) almost more as historical simulations, rather than pure games. When you look at their forums and the arguments held there its astounding how passionate (and knowledgeable!) the participants get into the details of historical considerations of proper design/implementation of the game. I think there are flaws in any Paradox game, but I suspect they often arise from designers (and most of their players) tendency that when faced with those inevitable design tradeoffs that must be faced with any game project, they'll often go for a sense of historical accuracy/realism rather than for gameplay or for balance.

By contrast, Dom2 has the pleasant premise that requires absolutely no interest in historical accuracy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Instead, it has at its foundation a profoundly interesting two prongs of development (or better said "orthogonal axes") that constantly force the player to choose between economic/magic development and the spread of their pretender's religious/dominion development. Given how incredibly complex Dom2 is (in terms of number of units, econonomic system, magic and number of spells, choices and configuration of pretenders, etc.), it is astounding how well balanced this game is.

Well, all that said is considerably more detail than I intended, but so it goes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Anyhow, this Last note on balance should serve as a caution to those that would change the routing rules. Personally, I'm sympathetic, but I think there are balance issues here, and that does make this more tricky than it might seem. I've more to say, but I think I'm going to do that on the Poll: morale and routing thread, as that's better suited to specific proposals.

Re: Dammit
 

C&C generals: zero hour is actually quite good, though i didnt much enjoy the earlier ones, not even base generals

kohan also was an excellent game, also, i believe, greatly underrated

Re: Dammit
 

That was one of the main things I disliked about EU II. It was too historical. It seemed like you could affect things but only within limits which caused the timeline to progress "normally".

If the pagans cant win then I dont want to play. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dammit
 

oh i have so far only heard of kohan but never played it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

is it a good mp game too ?
i jugded starcraft mainly on mp .

i think still no rts game with really different races is as balanced as starcraft when played in mp .


age of empires 2 / empire earth were good too but they have the same units for everybody so it is easy to balance .


from the viewpoint of user interface the c&c series is very good . but from the viewpoint of balance .
i haven't played c&c generals but in c&c 3 which i wishfully awaited i was disappointed too .


balance was horrible there :
gdi had the grenadierrush .
later nod had the overpowered artillery .





now a positive list :
my first rts game was dune 2 it was good at its time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
c&c 1 and 2 were nice too .
starcraft was almost perfect and occasionally i too play it sometimes even now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
in sp i liked lords of the realm 2 quite much though it had serious flaws in ai .
master of orion 2 was really great too but the ai there is extremely bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
heroes of migth and magic 1-3 were really good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ,
aow 1+2 too but now with my knowlegde of dominions they are just boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

magic the gathering i still play occasionally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

other strategy games that are good but have severe issues are :

missionforce cyberstorm ( bad ai ) , mech commander 1 ( no saving during missions ) , mech commander 2 ( too easy / short ) , shogun/medieval total war ( too simple / boring ) and the paradox series where i agree with you on bad ai too .

then imperialism 1 ( buggy though + you win to quick with the diplomatic vote http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif )



i ordered myself now civilization 3 for sp but i am not 100% sure if i will like it i liked master of orion 2 + alpha centauri but civilization 1+2 not really [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]




the only other turn based game which i still like extremely and where the knowlegde of dominions didn't influence this in a negative way is still the steel panther series , mainly SP WAW .

but this is a quite different game to dominions though and has only turn based in common http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

looking really forward to :

-total war : rome
-hoi 2
-world in flames

and of course dominions 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dammit
 

They *are* historical sims, albeit with the ability to create very ahistorical results (including such absurdities as the French conquering the whole world in the 1940s).

Re: Dammit
 

i love the paradox games too and look forward to especially hoi 2 . i own exactly the same like you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
i play them occasionally but they are unfortunately too easy / boring when played too long and i think not really adept for mp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif


just look on the AAR board of paradox gandalf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
there are reports of ppl who made a wc as maya e.g. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


i could do that on my own too probably but not in the timeline only with about 100-200 additional years with no time limit patch .

in hoi / vicky this is much harder
i guess nobody can win as luxemburg in hoi . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Dammit
 

Whether something is stupid or not if you know the game rules is complete aside from my point. The point is that as human beings, we have basic expectations as to how certain things should work. We can learn that these expectations are false under a given ruleset, but it takes effort, and things that are unintuitive without good reason often turn people off to the game.

I think it's a bit specious to argue that anything you do that doesn't work under a non-intuitive rule set is stupid because you should have known not to do it under the ruleset. There is a point at which you do not screw around with "normal" order unless there is a good reason. For example, why don't we call units that have missle weapons heavy infantry? Then, if you misuse heavy infantry in the game (don't use them as archers), you are "stupid" because everyone who has played the game for awhie knows that heavy infantry are actually archers, that heavy cavalry is actually weak against archers in the game, that mages don't cast spells, they fight as heavy infantry, etc.

The point is that there is no reason to set things up that are non-intuitive unless there is a good reason. It just serves as a barrier to entry for new players.

Re: Dammit
 

good points .

the reason for this is though really good :
BALANCE .
otherwise SCS would be imbalanced probably http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

i myself have dominions now since 3 months and i have to admit that it took me until now to learn some things and i still learn things in dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

in the first month e.g. i had no clue about scs .
and until about 1 week ago i underestimated battlemagic severe too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
but i am continually advancing and already quite good now i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

my wording was perhaps a bit poor or i misunderstood something so sorry for this

Re: Dammit
 

Your wording is fine, and I understand your reasoning. You've basically said that there is a compelling reason for the system to be a bit unintuitive and goofy, which I can generally accept, so long as the reason outweighs the deviation from normal expectations. If there is no good way to balance the game without using the current morale and routing system, then it is a necessary evil.

Re: Dammit
 

I'm not sure how small minority I represent. I happen to read the manual before getting into game too deeply. And I expect that the most important things I have to consider can be found from the manual.

The big deal with current routing system is that they are completely told in four sentences, the fourth being reserved for the special case of immortals. And they're simple if -> then rules, easy to remember and see in action.

With the proposed alternatives the battle becomes a chaos, at least to a newbie. "Why did five of my ten commanders just rout in the middle of the fight?" "WTF, my mages just decided to stay there to be slaughtered?" etc, all explainable by rules and (invisible to player) die rolls. While they might be reasonable in a miniature game where you have to make the rolls and so on, in a game they'd make things just a lot less smooth.

Of course, there are things that might be done differently (the commander-only army rout for one), but I'd think that the intuitivity wouldn't be served well with a change to more complicated.

I think that my point boils down to one question: when playing a turn based strategy game, should one be expected to read the manual?