Re: Caelum pretender design
 

In Denmark (at least when I attended high-school) German was a mandatory subject, and back then I would second Boron's opinion on the grammar. Capitalizing nouns is a hassle (removed from the Danish language quite some time ago), not to mention all the other complicated rules.

I hated these complications when I was younger, but now I must admit that I enjoy weird language rules and I detest bad grammar (in official/important texts, but not in everyday communications – what Category this forum falls into is a matter of personal opinion. I’m basically a lurker and as such I check my spelling vigorously). I even dislike American spelling with the missing "u" in "color" and the like. I think this might be an age thing.

(The interested can do a simple google search on “capitalization in german”)

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

can you really wish for 'flame pythium'......

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

Me too but that is probably more because I am English & also am wary of American "cultural imperialism".
It is exasperating to see people too lazy to type or punctuate or even write whole words out "r u my m8" grrr.

Still language changes & sooner or later some of these abominations will be standard...

Pickles

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I see that I noticed this thread a bit too late to discuss Caelum's pretender design, but since I love Caelum, here are my humble thoughts on the topic:

- Caelum's Mammoth toghether with Wingless and a Seraphine-Prophet casting Fanaticism are enough for early game expansion, hence a magic pretender and very strong scales is a must-have for me.

- Order=3,Sloth=-3,Cold=3. Apart from TempleGuards and Iclads, one does not need resources but one needs money for the mages - plenty of mages. One also better builts several Forts with all the money one has to get enough Iceclads/Stormguards and fly them together instead. Forts are also sensible to feed your troops, which are constantly starving if they move to far away. Hence I usually take growth 3 as well, but any positive growth is enough. I am not sure on the magic, but a postive scale is good if you have the points, so I usually distribute leftover-points equally between growth and magic, but I dont feel magic that necessary as others do here on this forum.

- Magic: I've decided that blood3,earth3,death3 on a Ghost King is pretty nice, but requires luck-1 to pay for (which I hate, because bad luck is bad for my morale). A fountain of blood is also pretty good, with blood3 and earth1: Why blood & earth? Simply to forge a blood-stone, which gives +1 earth (and earth gems), therefore giving you access to earth boots (earth+1), which in turn gives you access to dwarven hammers (if pretender does not have earth3 already) and, most important, staffs of elemental mastery. This gives you a high seraph with 4Air, 3Water, 4 Earth, who can cast nasty things like petrify and still has an armor, helmet & one misc available! Such a staff of elemental mastery is pretty nice on any other high seraph as well and I usually go for a high construction research anyway, since water bracelets are cheap and give all my high seraphs the capability to cast falling frost, which is pretty cute against most foes.

Having blood is nice as well, since even 3-4 sages with sanguine rods give you enough slaves to get an IceDevil or some StormDemons (via a Blood Seraph having a brazen skull for blood+1). If you use your fountain of blood for hunting (hey, your scales give enough gold anyway) on every other turn, you can easily get IceDevils pretty soon.


Comments?

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

Oh, one question to those who suggested Air&Water on the pretender: What for?

I mean, if you use your pretender for combat, ok, but otherwise its wasted, since the seraphs can forge enough items to cast all air/water globals already by themselves. Therefore I always avoid Air&Water on my pretender. I'd rather by a Wizards Tower if I have any spare points left!

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I use the pretender for combat.

- Kel

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

w2 is earlygame for expansion quickness .
you always can cast breath of winter which is good with caelums cold scale .

air 2 is for earlygame mistform + mirrorimage .
lategame you need it for magic travel ( cloud trapeze ) .

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

lol .
first it is a habit from cs + starcraft . if you type there with right capitalization and punctuation it is pointless anyways .

second english is not my native language but afaik only the word at the beginning of a sentence is written in capitalization in english and nothing else .
no big deal if i leave that out .

third in german orthography sucks . in every chat in german nobody cares about capitalization at all and in most Boards not too .


finally imo in 10-20 years it will be even included in a new reform to write everything without capitalization .
would be a rather good thing .



for a 50 year old person you behave really childish arryn .
to flame me and laugh at me only because i do no capitalization .
oh well there is a figure of speech : old people start becoming childs again .
perhaps you do this earlier than most other http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

but as it is i think it is more because i dared to say dominions is imbalanced .

so now you + cainehill use just the sligthest chance to flame me and try to make me look bad .
well just continue it just decreases your reputation more than mine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

As I said, I agree with that purpose, but apart from combat...?

I do not like using Close-Combat-Pretenders, since having access to foreign magic to forge nice items like DwarvenHammers and StaffsofElementalMastery or to summon creatures like StormDemons or IceDevils is much more helpful than a single strong combatant. I guess this particularly is true for Caelum, which relies on magic! I mean, how do you get those items/summons if not by your pretender?

I found that except for Death, empowering is way out of question for Caelum, whose mages eat away the gems like vanilla ice on a hot day (even during Caelian midwinter http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif !). Or do you think that one can get along without, summon more readily accessible creatures like those AirQueens? (Even with GaleGate up, I hardly have enough air gems for summoning left. I use them mainly for staffs of storms (every army and skirmish-squad should have one), bag of winds, combat-casting like wrathful sky and storm warriors,...)

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

if you take e.g. a nataraja with f2,w2,e3,d3,a2 :
you do not intend to use her as a sc earlygame .
but if you have to defend you can use her as an earlygame sc in times of need .
she can sitesearch then earlygame , midgame she forges / summons and lategame you can equip her to a really frightening combattant .

d3 is imo a musthave for most nations , especially magically narrow nations .
then you can do 3 things :
summon spectres for magic flexibility
summon bane lords as thugs / small scs
forge a skull staff + the death+1 helmet : then you can summon wraith lords / demi lichs too

since d3 lets you cast soul vortex in combat it is useful there too .
Last but not least with death 5 ( with items ) you can armytravel via stygian path spell lategame .

oh btw my mentioned nataraja with dominion 6 costs "only" 420 points .
so you have 80 points left for scales + castle .

i like : order 3 , sloth 3 , cold 3 , growth 3 , magic 3 and misfortune 1 .

if you want another castle than a watchtower you can chose misfortune 2 for mauso and misfortune 3 for 40 admin castle .

you have exactly zero design points left so you feel "perfect" as a nice psychological sideeffect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

i wish i had chosen this pretender in thufirs new game as caelum and not my lame vq http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

As a 3A (actually, mine might be 2A now, come to think of it) 2W 3E 3D pretender, it's not one or the other, the GK is beautiful for fulfilling multiple roles, that's specifically why I would use the GK and not, say, a Wyrm. If you are going to have 3E for hammer forging, why not have it be useful when you aren't hammer forging, by using it for Invulnerability ? How do you get the earth gems for forging hammers ? You use the same 3E to site search when it's convenient. I use the GK for all functions (except scouting, I guess http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )

You are 100% right that being able to cover the weaknesses in your summoning and forging is important when considering a pretender. However, the GK will be your first SC, by far, if you research alteration-3 and will give you a lot of early expansion, getting you to the point where you can make hammers or summon 'wicked fun things'(tm) that much faster.

Note 1: False horror is Alt-6, just one more level past Alt-5 for invulnerability so there is a research synergy, you aren't sidetracking your research by having a multi role pretender. Sometimes I go straight to alt-6 before sending seraphs out, sometimes I just go to alt-3 and switch back later on. Depends on game variables. If my national research took me down completely different paths (like Ctis does), I wouldn't use a GK.

Note 2: in my experience, an ethereal, chilled, air shielded, ironskinned, mistformed, mirrored, quickened (all available by Alt-3), fear producing pretender can be a lump of play-doh and pretty well take any normal indie province. Soul vortex is more of a bonus since it isn't as readily available, research wise. If you are fearful of losing him, keep him inside the highest dominion you can.

Like I said, I am not an expert and my ideas haven't been certified by any of the resident experts, that's just my take on it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

- Kel

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I am not arguing against using a GK as SC, but I just feel that I have time using him in battle, so I dont want to waste my design points in Air & Water.

Sure, my GK is site-searching to get me those earth gems (since Bloodslaves for bloodstones are only available until I get enough blood-sages and I only forge a few clams (4-8) to help with immediate gem shortage and to enable my astral-sages to cast probing). But since my mammoth occupy a province a turn and since my scouts usually find some easy targets for some windguided archers, my GK is heavily overstrained with site searching and as soon as I got enough earth gems for a hammer, he will barely be able to leave the lab. So I rather ensure good scales and never waste much thought in using him anywhere on the front. He might be of some use in defense, but I did that once (in hostile dominion - yes I had overextended) and immediately gathered two affilictions, which encourages me to stick im in a lab... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I don't remember the exact numbers but adding A2W2 to a GK is only like what, 50-60 points ? Shouldn't hurt your scales too much, makes him more viable as an SC, gives him better site searching and access to more rituals, like ID's. All for 50-60 points.

Just curious, what does he do in the lab after forging the hammer ? I use him to forge a couple key items but I usually take a province, search the province while a lab is being built, forge something like a hammer or a path enhancer, and then move on and take another province.

If you don't intend to use him as an SC very much, you are right, water and air (especially) aren't that useful. You said you aren't arguing against using him as an SC but it really sounds to me like you are or, at least, you don't use him as an SC or a site searcher *as much* as I would in the early/middle game. Which is fine, of course...but that probably explains the difference in how we would build them.

- Kel

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I dont build a lab everywhere, so I need to move to lab (no big deal with winged shoes, but still a turn to go). If I have noting to forge, I usually return to site searching, but there is plenty to forge: Dwarven Hammers, EarthBloodStones (one for every earth high seraph, and once for an earth sage to create the earth boots), BrazenSkull (just one for a blood seraph to bind StormDemons), Deathmagic enhancement items, Hellswords. Apart from that, he summons death & blood creatures as needed. This usually kept him pretty occupied in the games I have tried him so far (which are only three). In the case that he bores himself to Death, I use him to bloodhunt for a turn, which gets him going again in the next...

This seems to keep him occupied - but my experience with the GhostKing is rather limited to three MP-games (and some unfinished SP-Games), and each configuration was a bit different, but I recall that I must have given him water to summon frost fiends and ice devil, which I am missing now in the Last game (D3E3B3) as it approaches turn 40...

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

Another thing on human pretenders: Are they any good for Caelum? Nice scales require a high dominion to pay off. Thats my specific thing, ok, but in addition Caelum's economy depends on cold weather, which also demands a high dominion! So there is a combined benefit from high dominion which makes me think that dom-strength 7 is an absolute minimum for Caelum! I dont think that HeartOfWinter is worth it, but maybe that is different with a lower dominion strength, is it?

So human pretenders or the ArchSeraph are simply to expensive to get that dominion strength in my opinion, since even an increased path cost rarely outweighs the cost for boosting the dominion. This is why I dont use the VQ anymore (and I did not use her much in combat either).

So what is the cheapest chassis if you desire Death, Blood, Earth and a high dominion like 8? Which chassis leaves most points for scales & castle? I think the GhostKing and the Fountain of Blood are the only choices there...

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

The cheapest solution is the FoB there .
A nataraja has 3 dominion as the Ghostking has .
The Ghostking is with your 3 magic paths only 36 points cheaper than the Nataraja , so exactly 1 scale . The Nataraja would be a better endgame SC though with your special 3 scales . Would be enough to cast invulnerability + soul vortex .

Just curious : why do you take dominion 8 with caelum ?
Dominion 6 saves you 63 points with a dominion 3 pretender . In times of need Caelum has really good priests with the Seraphines . Since you play with rather good scales you can afford building a few more temples/castles .
Dominion of 8 is imo with most nations not needed , only those who are very short in money and or lack priests like Ermor / Pan cw and Mictlan is special .
Because you said you bloodhunt with Caelum you build normally a castle in every bloodhunt province too otherwise your bloodhunters are an too easy target . Building a temple there doesn't hurt too .
Since you have lots of labs with bloodhunting in your empire anyways you can take dominion 6 instead and add Air 2 for traveling then .

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

I've noticed that Caelian economy is much more stable during sommer with a Dominion score of 9-10. I rather neglect HeartOfWinter in favour of a high Dominion. In addition, I felt that it is a huge advantage in the beginning: The provinces you take switch pretty fast to my good scales with a high dominion, which accelerates expansion noticeably in my experience. It probably doesnt pay off if you play on big maps, but if you play on maps where allmost all indipendents are gone around turn 20, this gives you a nice headstart. A huge farmland province is well worth being site searched or bloodhunted by my pretender early on: Its income is insignificant if its not cold and orderly, but with the high strength, the pretender residing there spreads dominion easily to a higher number, resulting in a quick scale change - and having order3, cold3 & growth3 makes a huge difference in income for big provinces!

Also, I dont have a huge blood economy: I usually hunt with 3-4 blood sages with rods in a single >5000 pop province + my pretender wherever he happens to me. Caelum isnt a blood nation, so I only go for a few StormDemons, some IceDevils and some Hellswords. I also do not necessarily built a lab (caelian scouts are quite fine for transport, since I need bloodslave in big portions anyway) nor a castle in that province, but I shift the blood hunters if I have another province suitable for bloodhunting i.e. <8000 pop which needs a castle. I also choose either a Castle or a WizardsTower, since I do not see the point of mere WatchTowers. My fliers might relief a siege, but still they might need two turn to arrive or one turn to cast a WrathfulSkies with a skirmishing force. Hence I do not have that much castles, I
rather spent my money on troops and mages to throw at my enemies. I built just enough castles to defend chokepoints and to turn all my gold into mages http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gifSo I am usually lacking the provinces and castles to built more than a 5 temples anyway before I am engaged in active warfare, where my money is needed at the front...


But I post this here to learn, not to proselytize (we are out of the game, aint we?) so please more comments about improvements and flaws in my theory!?!

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

Caelum needs high dominions to get money (cold scale down & order/port/whatever up), not the other way up. Also you don't need to use that much money for temples then, and you are more restistant to the lategame attacks (namely Ghost Riders) that were said to be too powerful as they could raid all your temples outside castles.

Most nations can do with less, but Abysia and Caelum want high dominion as their income largely depends on right temperature.

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

Oh i thought you try to get a bloodstone production running with your pretender and then e.g. spectres as additional forgers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Spectres alone make D3 worthwhile being taken for most nations imo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Curious again : how do you catch the ice devils with Caelum before Abysia/Mictlan summon all of them ?
I think you don't mean wished ice devils .

Re: Caelum pretender design
 

After the first blood-stone, all my slaves are usually reserved for that. Research is not an issue, since I am researching quite much. So far this worked, but I never played against Abysia/Mictlan in those games. At which turn would you assume them all to be summoned?