Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Enjoy it and give me some feedback when you've had a chance to try it.

Additional Changes (that I forgot!)

Weapon: Bile - +1 AoE

Naga - -1 Enc (Total 3, now)
Golden Naga - -1 Enc (Total 3, now)

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Please note the current Version 1.5. I went back and forth on a few changes and ended up just giving in to the (wait and see).

Reasons for this: The Mod tools limit your actual choices. Whereas things you would like to put in that might be thematically and strengthening, just don't work right now (I.E. Fountain of Blood cannot get Blood Slave income because #gemprod doesn't work with Blood Slaves).

You only need the latest Version of the Mod Enabled (and would be best to have only that one enabled).

Edit: The Attatchment has been removed from the first post, the Attatchment 3 Posts up, is 1.5.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

All right, new readme is ready and attached to this post. All new changes have been documented. I've added some extra info as well so that those who might wish to know it will not have to look at other documentation (namely the Unit_ID and Weapons_&_Armor spreadsheets by yours truly) to find what they need.

Zen, a few comments and questions:

First and most important comment: I had a hunch when editing the readme and checked the mod file. You have forgotten to mod the secondshape monsters for the three dragons, dracolich, ***** queen, serpent king and smoking mirror.

These monsters (several of which are human forms) are very weak and simply crowbait if the pretenders assume those forms. The monsters you need to apply most or some of the same changes as you put on the actual pretenders are:
402 Crone - ***** Queen alternate form
267 Frost Father - Blue Dragon alternate form
226 Great Sage - Red Dragon alternate form
268 Master Druid - Green Dragon alternate form
645 Bog Mummy - Dracolich alternate form
858 Jaguar - Smoking mirror alternate form
654 Serpent King - Serpent form

Second, did you try to send me a PM yesterday? If you did, I didn't get it. I had the blinking envelope when I logged in, but there were no Messages in my inbox. Either resend, post here, or toss me an email (preferable, as the PM system seems less than reliable).

Third, have you considered commenting your mod? If anybody wants to take a look at the specific changed as implemented in the actual mod file, adding e.g. --[name] after the #selectmonster <nbr> or #selectweapon <nbr> commands will make the file a lot more readable (even to yourself, maybe?) I know from mapmaking that everything on a given line after -- will be ignored as commentary.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Where can i download your Weapons&Armor spreadsheets ?
And is there a document with all modding commands shown ?
Thnx for the info http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I have no any experience with making mods, so I might be way off, but Belphegor- King of Hell (I Think) has Blood Slave Income. So the game at least has some kind of commander setting for this.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

real good mod Zen, congratulations, I think its a step forward in godmaking for dominions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

I have a major problem though on the Blood Thorn that you modded to Blood 4 Nature 1 IIRC. If the purpose is to reduce its attractivness as a melee weapon, then you should lessen the damage, and not rise the cost. Because as it stands, you are making the life very difficult for blood nations just wanting the item for a second blood level boost. (In essence you forgot that the blood thorn has 2 usages)

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hm i tested it now and it seems no gemproduce command works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Perhaps the command is wrong that it is not #gemprod but something else like #gemproduce ?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Leave the blood thorn as it is, just remove life-drain from it. Simple. Now it will be used for its proper purpose, and not as a melee weapon...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I didn't ignore it, but I haven't been able to find a happy medium. Blood is one of the few paths of magic with 3 Path Boosters (Brazen Vessel, Armor of Souls, and the Blood Thorn).

The Weapon and Armor portion of the Item Mod is not complete (it is still very much in beta) in order for me to find a happy balance between the Life Drain weapons and their secondary functions).

I might consider doing just that, lowering the damage significantly, this in and of itself might be just what it needs (I was thinking -3) and removing the Nature component to the cost.

So Pocus, thanks for Pretender portion of the series and I am going still looking at the Items portion and it's not near done.

I just gave a half-list of what I was currently working with in the mod to Alenyea if you wanted to try it out and it's not currently released. (Mostly if you have people over there in France who don't like non-site gem income)

As you have been able to see from the Pretender Mod, I go back and forth on a few things trying to figure out a proper balance while taking into consideration the intent and usage of the items.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yes, I know there is alot in the game that is there that you cannot mod because they have not been 'unlocked' or made to mod. Belphegor produces Bloodslave and Turn by Turn summons Militia.

the #gemprod works for every other type of gem except for Blood Slaves, unless there is a different syntax for Blood Slaves than the standard

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hm i tested it with #gemprod 6 1 which should produce after my understanding 1 nature gem / turn but it didn't work either .
Is my above mentioned syntax correct or did i do a typo there ?

A small suggestion : What do you think of making Ryleh freespawns upkeepfree and making maenads Neednoteat ?

And a question cause i haven't much modding experience yet : Is it possible to make e.g. Daugthers/Mothers of Avalon not capitol only ?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen,

Do you plan to make changes to the units cost? We knows that less resources for lighter units (IW belief) is not enough to have them on par - interest wise - with the heavier ones (except in some special situations, there is always exceptions). A slight reduction in gold cost would do some goods, while we wait for new rules for light units (as we dont know if these rules will appears a day).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I don't see a typo. You can look on the Monolith in my mod to see that it produces Nature gems just fine. Though you could be filling up the 'special abilities' slots on a unit (there is a limit). Try testing it like this:

#selectmonster nbr
#clearspec
#gemprod 6 1
#end

If it doesn't work then, I don't know what's up.

I have ideas about Nation balance, but that is one I'm going to attempt to stay away from until I get the Pretenders where I like as well as Items more diversified (IMO). When doing nations my first target would be my favorite, which is TC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

No you cannot unless you totally remake and replace the Man Nation (no applicable Themes) Then make the nation list to include whichever one you'd like to be non-capital and make a new unit with the same sprite/stats as what your tryin to uncapital and put it in the nation selection. Then at the Capital you'd have 2 Daughter/Mother because the Magical Site is what allows them.

Final Answer Alex: More work than it's worth and still wouldn't seem right.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I have thought alot about this, I haven't found a happy place yet for this. I've considered trying a few things with morale and lowering their gold cost in order to make them more attractive as a screening force. I've also considered making them have more AP in order to have them engage the enemy significantly quicker than a main force in order to simulate skirmishing (sort of).

I'd need some devoted mod testers when I release this type of thing because it affects how the entire game is played and not just the selection of choices that you have (with the Pretender Mod and others). And it's a hard thing for me to gauge singly. I would love for there to be a way to make LI attractie and worth their cost for what they do, but it's a tough cookie for anyone (From IW to me) to figure out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

You can find the W&A spreadsheet in the Modding projects sticky thread, it's there as an attachment in my post.

Afaik, there is no document that lists all of the modding commands. Most can be found in the modding.pdf, but some were introduced in a later patch and the documentation is not ready. IW made some noises about the documentation being forthcoming as soon as they can get it done, but I've no idea when that is.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Actually, most paths have three boosters. Not counting rings of sorcery and wizardry and unique items, all of the elements have two plus staff of elemental mastery, blood has the three you named, nature has four (thistle mace, moonvine bracelet and Treelord staff, which counts as two boosters even though it is incompatible with thistle mace, and Armor of Twisting Thorns, which boosts both nature and blood). Only astral and death have just two boosters each, but death has a large number of cheap artifact boosters (Sceptre of Dark Regency especially), more than any other path.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I would love a bit more useful national troops too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
I think making all Li like militia Need not eat would be good than the supply problem wouldn't be as severe .
I made a small mod today changing maenads to need not eat cause i think it is thematic and does wonders while not disturbing balance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
The base commanders should have all doubled - tripled normal leadership then that they can use e.g. 100 militia and you have no hidden costs for having to use 3-4 leaders with 200 militia instead of 1 with 30 knights .
Finally reducing the goldcost 3-5 gold for militia and light infantry would do wonders i think .

If there would be a command to make an unit cost e.g. 10 gold but only 0.1 upkeep would be awesome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yeah i tried it with the FoB without #clearspec . There neither bloodslaves nor (nature) gems were generated . Perhaps it is because of his douse ability http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

May i ask why you think lifedrain weapons are too good atm ?

- Lifeless troops counter them . 1 ghost rider spell has good chances killing a SC who relies on lifedrain and doesn't have additional damage via e.g. fire shield or regeneration .

- There are some not bad LL summons like especially living statues/mechanical men and all the longdead , which ermor gets for free and finally manikins/mandragoras .

- Herald lance costs 10 astral gems , flamebeau 20 fire gems . Especially the flamebeau is superb against any undead/demon if my understanding is right that fire resistence doesn't negate the damage from the flamebeau .

Vs. magical beings a Moon Blade isn't bad and it costs only 5 astral gems .

Finally there are the AN-weapons .

So the lifedrain SC rocks against common national troops but loses against Anti-SC SCs .

So imo the lifedrain weapons are ok because blood thorns are not that easy to get with nonblood nations and Wraithsword/Hellsword is 2-handed , so you are lacking a slot .

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Bloodthorn is just kinda foolish. I mean, its a knife. You have a big hulking Ice devil equipped with a knife... its silly.

Sadly it a ubiquitous weapon, becuase it is single handed... so if you CAN make them you make them for combat on your SCs rather than for their purpose as sacrificial daggers.

At least the hellsword and wraith sword are balanced out by being two-handed. They are not SO bad! The blood thorn is just.. silly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Sir Rathergood the Knight approaches the bar. Sighting an Ice Devil, he slowly draws his fire sword...

Alerted by the rasp of steel, the Ice Devil slowly turns to face the Knight. From its side it draws its athame, its bloody emblem of power, the bloodthorn... "That's not a knife... THIS is a knife", it hisses to the Knight and combat ensues.

See? Perfectly natural explanantion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

An athame is a ritual knife, not a weapon of combat. Nice try, Peter. I'll give you points for pretty imagery, even if you did rip off "Crocodile Dundee".

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

You can't make units generating slaves, but you can give

#douze

To give them a blood hunting bonus.
I'm working too on a general balance mod ^^ so I'm taking lessons of/studying modding
__________________________________________________ _________
Life Drain is good because however make useless the 95% of things you can recruit.
Why someone could take production? 120 design point, for a +6% income?
And the 30% bonus ... it could be useful at the start to pump more troops out, but later it's damn worthless.

And Life Drain is all purpose ... equip your SC with Flambeau, here my army of anything sacrificable I can throw at ... and I'll kill you by swarming, fatiguing you out ...
Life Drain weapon make the work of 2 items:
A regenerating one.
A reinvgorating one.
1 Slot for 2 Items, with blood thorns.
And usually works far better than the other 2 items combined.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Ahah! Yes, Edi is right (DAMN THE EDITORS!).

But Blood ones are particularly easy to come up with. The Thorn and the Vessel are only 20 Slaves (10 normal gems) and the Armor is 40 Slaves (20 normal gems). It's not too hard to bootstrap up to make these things and then have access to the entire selection of blood because of it's nature.

Like I said (again!) the mod hasn't been released at all, so that means any and all decisions haven't been thoroughly tested enough for me to keep them or adjust them based on the limitations of nations and so on. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I may just end up changing the Damage of Lifedraining weapons so that even if a high strength unit is using them they arn't causing enough lifedrain damage to keep them alive (though out of fatigue).

There are alot of ideas out there and I only want to tackle one at a time. This may open up alot more if/when IW adds a few more modding tools (especially Rate of Attack) for the modding community to try to use.

Back to Pretenders: Anyone have a chance to comment on that?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

As modding commands there should be a lot to be implemented.

Especially for items, and spells.
Adding new magical forgeable items, or spells under certain categories, chosing an already existing animation, or allowing to summon new creatures is a good thing.
Giving all skill range to be modded (I mean giving someone Banefire Shield, or Flaming Weapon, or Astral Shield by default could be nice)
Adding global spellcasting bonus (Like enchantment bonus and such).
Well I could continue with the list but I'd prefer to stop here, not wanting to say a too much stuff that probably I won't never see realized.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, you were mentioning (I guess in a related thread about the item mod that I didn't see tonight), changing the requirements to forge magic items? Is that possible? Is there a new modding manual? I don't think my modding manual has been updated by a patch since 2.12, and I don't see a way to change those things in there.

PvK

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Since I overlooked (or perhaps was crazy and neverlooked!) the Shapechanged forms I have rereleased the Mod to 1.6. Find it with the attatchment or here www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp16.zip

(I'd like to apologize to anyone who was planning on using the mod for a game to test things out and the massive rerelease of Versions. I didn't intend for it to be like this, but I am a slight perfectionist. Again, I'm sorry)

For those starting games that have Dragons in them, or the Serpent King/Smoking Mirror this will be a slight improvement to their shapechanged portions.

Also I have added in the name breaks. I guess Edi wanted that in there so other people could copy the mod better?

I'm sure Edi will have a Readme for it as soon as is convienent.

P.S. I still wouldn't try to use some of the shapechanged forms for combat purposes (like the Jaguar or the Serpent forms) though I had some interesting results when they hit the 'near death' stage in human form and converted over. In particular this change helps out the Jaguar who had terrible MR for some reason (I guess shapechanged Jaguars are none to fond of magic).

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Yes there are ways to change Magic Items Pathcost and Forgecost, as well as their Construction level. But the Modding Manual has not been released and I haven't asked for the "Okay" to kind of maul the thing out to everyone. I do know that Psi has been working dilligently on a new Modding Manual so I definitely don't want to release any of the commands without the O.K.

This is a factor to why I have the Item Mod on the backburner.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Well, it's the editor's job to make sure the facts are kept straight, no? And you DID name me as your official editor... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

This is certainly true. The blood boosters all require just blood magic to produce, while many of the other path boosters require more than one type of magic and often in combinations that are not particularly plentiful.

• Skull of Fire is a death/fire combination, which aside from Machaka, T'ien Chi and Ermor (dusk elders) isn't all that common.
• Moonvine bracelet is astral/nature, which is a bit easier to get, and usually requires either one random pick or indie lizards.
• Bloodstones require the rare earth/blood combo, which is imo the hardest one to get at sufficient levels to make the stones.
• Armor of Twisting Thorns is blood/nature, so availability is usually limited to Pangaea and Mictlan out of the box. It makes for a powerful ritual casting boost, but is in other ways limited (not the least by being cursed).
• Crystal Coin requires the earth/astral (2/2) combination, which I've found to be annoyingly troublesome.
• The Staffs of Elemental Mastery are pretty hard to produce, because they require combinations of opposite elements. T'ien Chi, Arco and Atlantis are almost the only ones who have mages that can produce them out of the box (assuming proper random picks)

Besides blood, this leaves only air, water and death as paths where all boosts are producable without combo paths, and air has the limitation that you need 3 air to produce the first one. Ditto fire, unless you get the death combo.


EDIT: nevermind, you posted an answer to a question while I was typing it.

I'll get working on the readme. I can also comment the pretender mod file for you, if you like, so you can concentrate on the items for a while longer. Unless somebody else has something important to add in the meanwhile, of course.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, one more problem with the pretender modifications: The ***** Queen's crone form actually has base hit point value of 16 in the unmodded game, so your mod just cranked them down by 4 to 12.

I suggest keeping the original crone form HP and removing Heal Troops, because otherwise there is no sense at all taking Crone for those nations that have BQ available. A cost difference of 15 points is a laughable price for the capability to heal injured afflictions. This would keep the crone and the ***** queen more in their thematic niches, instead of making the BQ a buffed up crone with two less misc slots and an armor slot (BQ crone has normal humanoid slots instead of crone slots).

I've made the appropriate changes to reflect this, and updated the readme according to those changes, so that the BQ crone and the real crone differ from each otehr in these respects. I've attached that mod as v1.65 into this post. Includes mod file v1.65, graphic file and readme v1.65.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Hah, you caught that right as I was mulling over fixing the attatchment http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So it's all good. 1.65 is the latest Version with new and improved shapechanged creatures.

Edit: The Readme says it's for Version 1.3. You might want to change that on the next Version.

SCORE ONE FOR THE WRITERS BABY!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

You can't prove anything! (Unless the witnesses who downloaded the attachment before I fixed it come forth...) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Yes, the attachment in my previous post has been updated so that the readme says it's for v1.65.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Actually, those make it a lot easier to both copy the mod or parts of it, and to troubleshoot and tweak and to do actual proofreading of the mod code. It'd have taken me a lot longer to catch the BQ/crone issue if the comments hadn't been there.

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

ok, guys, we need a set location where the latest beta of the mod can always be found - I'd suggest as an attachment to the first post of the thread, perhaps.

as it is, it looks like the only place to find Version 1.65 is the un-named attachment to Edi's post 4 Posts above this...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Or Zen can have Gandalf or I host the file ...

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Ahem,

Well I'll just go back to the Evil half-Genius labratory and concoct more diabolical schemes.

If you'd like to host the file Arryn, you can. I don't see how it can hurt. Though it seems to be going through quite a few revisions lately.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

The mod displays "Conceptual Pretender Gods 1.6" when it should display 1.65, so people can more easily rest assured they have the proper Version.

Which perhaps means it should be 1.65.1? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


Edit: Also, should the aquatic Version of the Arch Mage also have Dominion strength 2 now?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I doublechecked that, Cainehill, and for some reason or another, it snips that 5 off from the 65. The Versionis listed as 1.65 in both readme and mod file, but it just displays 1.6 in the interface. Go figure...

Edi

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Umm - the 1.65 mod file contains "1.6" in the very first line, "#modname", which is what is displayed in the mod selection menu. If you right click on it, the mod info displays, "Conceptual Pretender Gods 1.6, Version 1.65". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

But as should be obvious from my looking so closely at it, I think it's great stuff. Thanks to both Zen and Edi!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I am one of the Mod Install Challenged that Zen mentioned in his first post. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Your instructions are good, Zen. I'm sure I could install it now if I want to (and I do). But I was wondering: does this mean that all I need to do to switch between modded and unmodded Dominions is go back into Preferences and undo the steps you've listed? So there's no need for, say, an unmodded copy of the game so I could play with those who prefer to play with the unmodded game?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

All you need to do to turn the mod on and off is to go into Preferences/Mod Preferences and then clicking on the mod will toggle it.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

And when you're in the game at the main / start menu, look at the upper right corner to see what, if any, mods you currently have enabled. Then follow Truper's instructions if you want to turn one off/on.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Also, if you are playing multiple games of which some are modded and some not, you do NOT have to go turn all the mods on/off everytime you load a turn. Just make sure that you have all the mods for all the games you play, and that you make the pretender and the game with right mods, and the game takes care of the rest.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

yah just go into preferences>mods and click it to enable/disable it. easy as pie. well, ok, even easier.

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Easier than making pie; not easier than eating Caelum, er, pigeon, pie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I like pie! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif Thanks guys!

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

I prefer my fowl roasted, not baked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Blarg, I changed the typo at the top

Here is the link:

www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp165.zip

Note: The only change is that one piece of text, that seems to be causing people issues http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Zen, might I suggest that you leave the zip file's name static, possibly changing the names of the files inside the zip? Makes it a lot easier for people to DL the latest, without you having to update the links.

That, or keep changing the zip file's name, but leave the filenames inside the same, so people don't have to do the rename, copy, paste, rename shuffle?

Re: Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)
 

Ideally, what he should do is leave BOTH the zip filename and the internal filenames static and include a history.txt file in the archive.