Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Thanks for clearing that up Fyron, I must have gotten my information screwed up in my head. Not the first time that's happened... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

One more thing though...have any of you heard of the Canadian citizen who was travelling to the US, and yet was detained by the US immigration, or homeland security, or some such organization, and then deported to Syria!! He was kept incarcerated by US forces without just cause, simply because he used to live in Syria. He was a Canadian citizen, and yet some braindead organization deported him to Syria! Come on. That's just ridiculous.

I will admit, the Canadian government cooperated with the US somewhat in this, and for that I have no respect for them. Now, Canada was also responsible for that. I admit it. I'm not so rabidly patriotic that I can not see the truth.

Point is, the US does many things that are against basic human rights. Other countries do too. Canada probably does so as well. There are many problems with the world today, and we can't solve them all. That doesn't mean we have to be rabidly patriotic and stick our head in the sand though.

By the way, the name of the Canadian that was deported to Syria was Maher Arrar (not sure of the spelling) just in case anyone wanted to look that up.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

I thought the limit for holding without just cause was 48 hours, not 60. Also, doesn't the Patriot Act give the police or military the right to detain without just cause if they believe they "may" be a threat to the security of the US? Or am I wrong again? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01

For more Coulter tidbits, see: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...terwisdom.html

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Actually, under the Patriot Act, I beleive you can be detained indefinitely w/o access to legal counsel if they say that terrorism is involved (oh, and all of the evidence, depositions, and the very fact that you've been taken away can be kept secret IIRC...)

Scared? You should be. (EDIT: and you know THEY'RE watching these Boards and recording everything...if I dissappear suddenly, you know why...)

I'll try and drum up some references to confirm or deny this, but I'm pretty sure it is currently the case.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Okay Renegade I'm sorry here but that whole Canadian citizen deal is just BS as a justification for how "evil" we americans are I had a friend who was detained by the RCMP and kept for over four hours of questioning because of one oops in his passport so political mistakes happen on both sides of the border http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Oh and Canada has a military so weak it can barely defend it's own country and relies on allies for everything (not an insult here I'm just saying) so they couldn't go about any serious wars if they wanted too.

"Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01"

Oh give me a BREAK! I even SAID that the US has it's flaws I just said I'd take it over any other country any day that is hardly a "kill or convert" policy, My problem with you foreigners that go whining about how "evil" we are have no right to judge us when no doubt your country has it's own sorted political crap so why as I said why don't you limit your whining to your own country?
And NO I am not accusing all the folks that disagree with US policy here of being whiney I am just saying folks that are comparing us to "The Evil Empire" and crap like that.

"You might want to be aware of who you are talking about if you are including me. Although there should NOT be such a thing as a list of qualifications which give the right to comment, if there WERE such a list then many of us would qualify quite heavily. Hmmmm lets see... US citizen, vietnam vet, military retired, tax payer, functional family man, home owner. Thats quite a list of things I can put me on the "politicians listen to me" list. About the only thing I could add to it that I dont have at the moment is that Im no longer a "small business owner" or "CEO of a large corporation". Thats just me. I thought Id clarify it abit."

You were ABSOLUTELY not included Gandalf, I was making that remark about those "we need a revolution" folks that seek violence in change instead of positive changes.
If you dislike the US government and are a US citizen and can effect change for the better if enough of you get together then by all means do it.
But there has never been a positive revolution before or since the First American Revolution as revolutions tear countries apart and leave them ripe for other nations to pick apart, not to mention find me two Americans with enough firepower to take on an armored division and then maybe I'll feel threatened by any pathetic attempt at revolution, until then shutup about a violent revolution and instead try to make positive changes and lead the community through peaceful and educated talks about how they can improve things and NOT just whine about how evil the government is and how evil the US military is and blah blah blah ad nauseum.

I am just sick and tired of people acting like the United States is evil, I'm sorry to say we have earned an unfortunate reputation as a nation due to stupid things that we've done but I find it convenient that those very people who say how evil we are never bother pointing out whatever the US has done their country has likely done it LOOONG before and a LOT WORSE (that mainly goes for the older nations like many of those in the MIdeast and Europe) so please save me that saints and angels bit.
Trust me the US could use improvement, mainly in the department of trying to do anything in the world, if you ask me we should pretty much do what European nations do and say "Screw the lot" and stay home, OH BUT WAIT when we tried that the world whined about us NOT doing anything......either way it seems to me we are screwed in the eyes of the world.

So basically my political view on the world today:

Politics 101 the world sucks every nation sucks to someone it's just that the US being the most powerful sucker on the block gets the biggest load when it sucks LOL


And I'm sorry there is a difference between changing your mind and changing your tune during the same speech in one sentence Kerry will be all
"Yes I voted for the war in Iraq"
the next sentence he'll be going
"The war in Iraq is wrong and I've said so from the start"
Or similar (I'm not good at quoting from memory) so I dislike that in anybody but it would be worse in a president.

Do I think Bush is perfect LOL hahahahahahhahahaha muahahahaha heheeeeheeehee ahem cough anyhoo "Strategery" lol. sorry

What I was trying to say is NON POLITICS I love my country so back off.....I'm sure you wouldn't like every political screwup your country ever made to be judged forever would you?

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Oh and BTW WAKE UP the world is run by power hungry buisnessmen NOT just the United States so please stop using our power hungry jerks to make u all look evil just because they happen to b richer then your money hungry jerks....thank you.

And I stopped cussing so please stop with the "tone it down" stuff I already did I said sorry publicly and I edited out the cussing.

As I said I was tired and frustrated so I got hot faster then I should have.....can we let that go now please?


"Again its not the facts, its the way they are worded and looked at by others than the person who keeps saying them louder and louder. And civil disorders in those territories has caused us to send in troops (same as the british empire).

The scarey part is that most of those were taken in war. They were taken to move out the government ruling them, we stayed in control in order to "lead them to a proper government", (sound familiar?) and now decades later they still arent free nations or states. Im sure its all in their best interest but then most such actions by countries usually are as far as the nation doing it says. "

Yeah I know I probobly blew a lot of my credibility out the window with the hostile flame and I already said sorry so you are right about the way I phrased things.

Well I do hope that those nations can someday either become states of their own will or become self reliant enough to be an independant nation but until then I just hope they are happy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now as to the line about "Us giving up on Afghanistan" what the heck news have you been watching

FIRST FREE ELECTIONS EVER are already under way there, that doesn't sound like a nation of dozens of small fifedomes to me?

OH and there are still over 100,000 US service personnell in Afghanistan, pretty much between there and Iraq the bulk of the US armed forces are deployed. There is also a UN peacekeeper contingent in Afghanistan so the US "military" should back out as soldiers are NOT peacekeepers and it's not their duty.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Well, since this was directed at me, I feel obliged to step up and say I am a US citizen, I was in Iraq for the first five weeks of the war (as an analyst working with the Marines), I work for the US government, and I, like many people, got taken in by the lies of this administration vis-a-vis the Iraq war. Oh, I was also in the mideast for the Afghan war, which I still beleive was the right war at the right time. Iraq was based on intentional lies. Going to war is not something one should do lightly, and if a president lies about it, he should be kicked out.

Now, let's stop with the ad hominens and actually debate the issues.

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I agree with you that Iraq probobly shouldn't have happened my point is we are there now and we can't abandon them and still feel right with ourselves, at least I don't think I would feel proud of a country that backs out after it made a mistake and doesn't try to fix it.

We are there it sucks but we have to see this through or Iraq will become an even worse bloodbath then it is now that would make me sick to be honest.

The Afghan war was the right thing at the right time and it's good that we are still there in a more limited capacity because it's a way of ensuring Afghanistan stays independant and hopefully someday prospers.

Like I said I am exausted I am brainshot and I already said I probobly worded things very poorly. Sorry......again....yet.....again.....oy.

I'm 17 I'm young and I have hope for the future of my country, it's seen bad times before and with any luck it will rise again to a position of respect instead of paranoia and hate.

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Shoot man, I said some awfully nasty things too. It's the season, ya know? Sorry if I was rude - and I'm sure I was.

Hard to keep one;s cool when it's ten days till the election. First one I've ever gotten THIS worked up about. I'm sure I've lost some friends here and in person lately being a blowhard in yer face type...

Totally agree about Iraq - must fix it now that we're there.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

I'm sorry too for the hostile tone I took about Iraq a girl who I consider a dear friend lost her boyfriend in Iraq and I agree with her that his death would be a waste if nothing came of it for the Iraqi people.

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One way to ensure that is to not act unilaterally, but with friends and allies. If a nation that is the most powerful in the world acts like nobody else's opinion matters, there is only one ultimate result: the rest of the world will band together against us. You think we're at war now? The rest of the world hates what we did so much that if we don;t regain their trust and respect, we ain't seen nothing yet. And trust and respect is not something you can force on others.

I fear our children and our childrens' children will be reaping the bitter fruit of our dear leader's misguided ways for many years...

I am saddened, also, because I have traveled around the world to countries that ostesibly are enemies of the US. I have been to Iran, Sudan, and a whole load of other places, just me and a backpack. I loved Iran the best - wonderful people, and although they often found issue with US policies, they all loved American people and hated their own government.

Now, I fear that if the American people re-elect Bush, I will never again be able travel in many countries for they will hate Americans as much as they hate Bush.

And, once the world hates the American government AND the American people, we've lost. There will no longer be any "city on a hill" in this country for others to look up to.

EDIT: clarified ambigious grammar

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Yes you are completely right but out of Bush and Kerry I don't trust Kerry as I have researched much of his war record and it scares me what his fellow soldiers thought of him.

I do not entirely like Bush either but at least we KNOW what Bush will do most likely, so it is better the Devil you know then the one you won't.

Yeah I've heard Iran is a country of rich culture and background but I've also met a woman from Iran who said getting out was the best thing that ever happened to her....so honestly there I don't judge that country because I'm sure man Iranians LOVE their country as I love the US (not necessarily the government)so I leave Iran alone.

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Wait, you're talking the Swift Boat Vets, right?

None of whom served with him, and most are paid by republican lobbyists?

Have you listened to what the vets who served with him have said?

Get both sides!

Yeah, Iran certainly sucked for those who were on the losing side of the revolution in 79. I know lots of Irani expats here, and they all had to leave in a hurry, and many didn't get out with all their relatives. No doubt about it - the Ayatolloyah was an evil B****D.

And, yeah, most Muslim countries suck for women. Not all, but most. There's nuances and ways around it, of course. When I was over there there was a thriving underground of booze and pick-up scenes. I could have gotten all the gin and other liquor I wanted. And, the scariest part of my whole trip was when I was in a store having tea with a shop keeper, and in walked three high school irani girls, and they sat and giggled and made jokes in farsi (I couldn't understand a word of it) and then, suddenly, one leaned over and planted one right on my lips. Seriously. I was totally shocked. And scared. Like, the religious police are gonna cut my head off when they come around the corner scared. SO I stammered something unintelligible, and left. The shopkeeper later said that they just thought I was real cute with blond hair and they wanted to marry me. Yowza! Sorry ladies, not gonna happen...

All in all, a memorable experience.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

"Wait, you're talking the Swift Boat Vets, right?

None of whom served with him, and most are paid by republican lobbyists?

Have you listened to what the vets who served with him have said?"

Well his own CO said he wrote his own after acion report which is not only against military regs it can be punished by legal action (aka quarts martial).

Also as I said he got piddly ant wounds 3 times in a four month period that obviously didn't hurt him much then he ran home and bad mouthed his fellow soldiers in Nam and I mean entire UNITS not just individuals.
My great uncle stayed for 2 tours after getting hit twice (each was enough to put him out for a while) and he died so 4 months and copping out to go home when your comrades have to stay is bull.

Sorry but that's my feelings on Kerry, I think he is a liar as are all politicians but what bugs me about him is his danged "I Wont 3 purple hearts" big deal so you got in the way 3 times and got a skinned knee (or it's wartime equivalent) tens of thousands of other US soldiers got the purple heart after they died (can't remember the spelling of the word so I won't even try right now) so he's nothing special and should stop rubbing those in our faces.

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WHAT?!? What in the world do you base that on? The fact that they dont defend their southern border and rely on us to do it? You realize of course that we dont defend our northern border and rely on them to do it. In fact, most of the missile shield and radar services for the US is Canadian. Is it the fact that there has never been a Canadian war for Canadian reasons? They DO show up for every world war. They DO show up for every UN action in some very nasty places. Their forces are juast as capable and equiped as anyones.

Now if you wanted to say something like "all your decent war equipment comes from research an manufacturing of the US" then that would probably be true. But of course thats true of most of the world and Im not sure its anything I would want to brag about.

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No danger of that. We got rid of Saddam. Thats a good thing. But whatever reason we went in for (take your pick of many) we should say "we won now we are going home".

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After Action Reports are AFAIK written by the people who participated in the action. I think his CO never met him, right? Or do I have that wrong? WE do it in the Navy and USMC all the time today.

In any case, I don't feel qualified to judge the extent of a man's injuries, nor how they choose to deal with them. Everyone is different, and I don;t think any wound that leaves shrapnel still in one's leg thirty years later could be characterized as "piddly ant" - I do know though that he volounteered for the war when he could have gotten a deferment easily, while Cheney got 5 deferments and Bush, well, we all know what Bush did.

In any case, I do think the Vietnam thing is sort of silly as an issue - I don't think he should have emphasized it as much as he did - it was over thirty years ago. But by the same token, in war I want someone who's actually seen combat to lead a nation.

As to his testimony about atrocities being committed in Vietnam, he was recounting what other vets had told him, and, in any case, atrocities *were* committed.

I think very highly of a man who is willing to stand up in the face of his superiors and his fellows for what is right. Vietnam was a very nasty little affair - and it was the *wrong* war. Atrocities have been committed in Iraq (Abu Ghraib and others that will eventually see the light of day) and for someone today to stand up and shout that "hey that ain't right!" would be a service to the country.

To not say someything in the face of evil is to take the easy way out. I respect Kerry greatly for having the courage to speak out about evils being done in the name of the US. There is not much braver than that.

But, in any case, it was thirty years ago...

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Also, the Canadian military is exceptionally skilled at peacekeeping - they are in fact, the paramount force for it. It really illustrates a different mindset - the Canadians use their military to assist the UN, the US uses it military to tell the UN to p*ss off.

And, yeah, the US and Canada have a very integrated defense system - they rely on each other to a great extent.

[quote]
Gandalf Parker said:

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Careful there. Thats an awful lot of countries. Including ones in Europe, members of NATO, ones in Africa and in the Pacific nations. Im not sure that "most" would apply unless you mean the arabic desert nations. Then it would probably be a safe statement. (my overseas muslim experience was in Turkey)

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Crap I misworded it again I'm sorry to Canadians everywhere lol I did not meant to imply their soldiers were incompetent ro their technology inferior I meant NUMBERS wise they are by far no true military power and can't fight a "serious war" on their own....as it would probobly bankrupt them....sorry again.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

I'm sorry, but the complete and utter disrespect being shown to Veterens by Republicans (you included, Starhawk) is disgusting.

Regardless of the injury, how it happend, where it happened, or how often it happend, at least he had the balls to volunteer. What he saw in Vietnam horrified him (and many others), and because of that he spoke out. Until you've walked a mile in that man's shoes, you are in NO position to question, degrade, or insult his Service.

My Grandfather served over 2 Years overseas during World War II, and if I ever degraded someone's Service the way you and the Republican's are (ie: those stupid purple heart bandaids) I would fully expect him to have taken out his WWII pistol out of storage and shoot me dead.

Republicans... I've never seen a more disrespectful and disgusting group of people since a dumb *** KKK supporter tried to march in Ottawa.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

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AHhhhh the old "US, Russia, China are the big armies" thing. And now that Russia is out of the picture....
Well yes, thats true. Although Im sure thy have enough population to put out a decent military force if ever they were attacked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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You're absolutely right, and I shoulnd't have said that - I know better, and I don't even really feel totally like that. I mean, I hate, *hate* vast generalizations like that. My wife and I argue a lot about it. She says, unequivocally, that women in muslim situations have it cr*ppy. I say, yeah, progbably, but, it ain't like you think...And I have known plenty of muslim women who are as strong willed and not-gonna-put-up-with-anything as anyone. This is all somewhat ironic becuase I have an abiding interest in Islam and Islamic countries. In my experience Muslims are, in general, the most polite, kind and generous people in the world - and Muslim countries are FAR different to what we in the west imagine them to be.

What I really should have said was this: in countries where the state religion is Islam, women have a varying degree of structural, insituational and cultural hurdles to overcome. In some cases, these can be extremely oppressive, in others, almost non-existent.

Oh, and, hey, you think NY or Boston drivers are agressive? Man, you haven't seen aggressive until you've seen how women in Tehran drive! Seriously.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

EDIT: a whole bunch of silly spelling mistakes

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If one thing bothers me about this, it's the instant change in his story. Not during this campaign, but back when he returned from Vietnam. While he was there, he was filming war videos where he was the hero, so apparently he wasn't too upset about the war. In fact, that would seem to indicate he thought war was a good opportunity to display his heroism (whether in RL or just on the silver screen). However, once he got home, he all of a sudden was against the war; he had seen dozens of atrocities committed by our troops; and he even said he had committed some himself. That doesn't sound like a good way to build up his image as a war hero!

I guess my question is: What happened on the flight between Vietnam and the US to change his desire to appear to be a courageous war hero who saved the day several times?

Of course, one could also ask what happened in the past year to change his mind again, but that might be seen as a snide political attack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Maybe that whole anti-war thing was just a phase brought on by shellshock?

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Problem is he is currently pro-anti-war if you listen to him he tap dances to much to tell whether he wants to stay in Iraq till it's over or whether he wants to lead the US into yet aother humiliating withdrawal ala Bosnia.

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Coming to a theatre near you: The Siamese Candidate featuring John Kerry as John Kerry...

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif I'll go away now.

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Bosnia was humiliating? I'm not tracking.

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Im not really seeing any flipflop there. First off, alot of people were for being in the military and against vietnam. And I dont think withdrawing from Iraq now is a humiliating withdrawal. Its done. We are now fighting people we were not fighting when we went in. Thank you but dont stick around.

Of course thats a problem to discuss here. We gamers tend to have a different idea of what is involved in "winning the war" and to EVER leave the area before converting it into a part of ourselves isnt it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Lets just hope that Bush isnt a gamer.

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Oh.....crap I think I got the wrong country again.....I give up for tonight I'm waaaay to tired sorry.

Somalia was what I meant.

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Oh my god, he CHANGED HIS MIND!

No, but seriously, there is no contradiction between being proud of what you are doing at the time and not in favor of the larger policies. When I was in Iraq, I took photos. Can you read my mind as well as yuo can read Kerry's and tell me why? I didn't think so.

EDIT: let me add some words that I think better explain what I mean: There is a world of difference between doing one's duty and trying to right wrongs. When he (or anyone) volounteered to go to Vietnam, to fight and perhaps die for his country, that's a powerful oath you take. You have a duty. It's not just pride in one's work, it's a calling. But, frankly (speaking from personal experience), almost getting killed tends to focus one's mind really well on what is important in life and what is not. And, I would guess that when his duty was over, he felt that he could then move on to dealing with issues or what he heard. A soldier or a marine or a sailor, is not going to disobey, be derelict, or otherwise bring shame upon their oath or their service. But when that is done, then they can reflect on what it was they were asked to do. Again, it takes a courageous man to do such reflection and come to the conclusion that the way the war was waged was wrong. END EDIT

And, perhaps he had an epiphany of sorts. When you're in-country for months and you see just one side, and then you get out and you talk to others and they tell you that they committed atrocities, that certainly could change someone's mind. And, hopefully, it *would* - again, I have a lot more respect for someone who can change their mind, especially on something of vast importance, than for someone who is going to stubbornly cling to some erroneous beleif.

That's why I can't have respect for anyone who says, at *any* point in their life, "Mistakes? I can't recall any I've made..."

That is not the type of person I'd like to be having a beer with.

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I find it hard to beleive that the Canadian military could have sufficient equipment, given that a) we've had to ship out soldeirs by renting space in other peoples boats, b) our sea king helicopters, a major part of our air force as I understand it, are 50 years old.

Granted, I'm no expert, but that's an alarming trend.

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heh. Helos, airplanes, ships, and pretty much everything else is too old in the US military. Ask any marine about CH-53s...

The only things that aren't too old are the newest sexiest gear of the moment. Like the Osprey, stealth bombers, JSF, etc....services LOVE to buy the latest toys, but seem to have a real hard time replacing or repairing the ones they've got...

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I don't claim to be able to read his mind. His actions simply seem to indicate that he thought war was fine, or at least that being a hero in a war was fine. All right, no complaints there. But you can't say he simply just changed his mind about war, because he came back and said that he himself committed war crimes! That's not "Well, I used to think war was good, but now I've been enlightened to the evil we're doing"--by his own testimony, he was evil during his four months over there, while at the same time he was making films which promoted war. Something just doesn't add up there. If he had honestly just changed his mind, then I could handle that. But apparently, he held both of those opposing viewpoints simultaneously. Maybe he's just a little more open-minded than I am. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

He didn't just "see the big picture" once he got out--he was right there involved in it (his atrocities). That didn't have anything to do with his duty or following orders. If he did commit them, why did he come back and say so? Conviction for that can bring some serious penalties, and he basically confessed in open testimony. And if he really did commit them, how can he say he is "proud" of his service to our country? That doesn't sound like something one can be proud of.

I repeat myself--either he was involved in war crimes while he was making war films, or he lied in his testimony and never saw or committed any war crimes. Either way, his motives are suspect.

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You're friend who was detained...he was released wasn't he? Not deported to some foreign country against his will? All I'm trying to say is that, while both sides of the border make large mistakes, (no one can argue about that!) we don't deport people to foreign countries without due cause, and we don't have laws such as the patriot act. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying Canadians are the moral superiors of Americans, not at all. I'm merely pointing out fundamental differences in our ways of doing things.

As for the Canadian military, point well taken. The Canadian military IS pathetic. But, look at our population as compared to yours. You have about 300 million population, we have 30. You're military SHOULD be 10 times the size of ours. I know, I know, the difference is more than a factor of 10 difference, but that accounts for a lot of it. I for one believe we should have a strong enough military that we can defend our own shores and borders without foreign assistance. But I'm just one small voice. However, if Canada was ever invaded, you can bet our military would be defeated, but the occupying force had better watch out, because I've been shooting guns for as long as I can remember, and I'm a damn good shot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You can bet many people wouldn't take it lying down, just as if America was invaded, your civilians would fight back http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif But I am forced to agree with most of your arguements.

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I agree once again with you here, now that you're there you have no choice but to see it through. Also, no need to apologize, there's no reason to be sorry for having an opinion. I've been shot down around here before for my political opinion, and all I can say is this: keep an open mind, but also keep your moral values intact while you have this opinion.

I also am 17, one of the youngest people on these Boards. I'd like to say that I'm not paranoid about the US, and I respect you guys immensely. However, there are always things that could be done better, and I was just trying to point some of those out to you. No offense was intended.

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Once again you are right Starhawk. We have a very small standing military force, as it would most definitely bankrupt us. However, we were in both world wars, and performed very well in them. IIRC, we had 1 million people serve in WW2, and we performed in many operations, and were some of the best sharp-shooters in the entire war. Still are actually. Snipers. We could not start a war if we wanted to, at least not without a whole hell of a lot of extra spending and armament. But maybe that's a good thing.

I'm sorry if lots of this has been said before, but I'm working my way back through the Posts, without reading the most recent ones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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Well, if you won't say it, I will.

"Canadians are moraly superior to Americans". Our Government doesn't fund uprisings and supply weapons to Militias (re: Taliban) to overthrow Governemnts that we don't approve of. That's why Canada has never been hit with a Terrorist attack, and that's why we won't.

Terrorists don't "hate America's freedom", as the Bush Administration keeps preaching. Terrorists hate foreign Countires funding revolutions in their homeland. If the U.S. ever got a clue and realized that giving guns & money to rebel factions doesn't work long term, then there would be a hell of a lot less distate (and hate) towards the U.S. in the Middle East and elsewhere in the World.

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Im thinking maybe you werent around then from that. Vietnam wasnt a war you did because you thought war was fine. There was a draft on. You were pretty much GOING to go to war when your country called you. Either that or leave the country and lose your citizenship. There were various sidestepping actions you could work real hard to do but of course it wouldnt work if everyone did it so go to vietnam or go to some other country was pretty much the choice for us.

I guess I can see how that might be confusing. All I can say is that its not confusing at all to me. I was, and am still proud of being a VietVet. Instead of ducking out of the country I plowed right in and volunteered. On the other hand Im not proud of that war, or what was done there by many. Im not glad that the US fought it.

And technically, unless a military man specifically signed a secrecy statement about a particular mission, then it IS his military duty to speak up about atrocities when he returns.

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I don't think he ever said he committed atrocities, right?

Nor would I say that making movies while over there qualfies as "promoting war" - maybe tourism, but not much more than that.

When you're in the service, at war, whether you think war is good or bad is irrelevant. He was serving his country, and he might have thought it wrong what his countryt was doing. I did the same thing in Iraq. If you'd met me over there, and I thought I could speak my mind to you, I would have told you that I thought that war was stupid as heck, but that had NO bearing on whewther I was going to do my duty or not. Now, that's easy for me to say since I was just an analyst, but the concept is ever stronger I would surmise for combat troops. You're over there, whether you agree with the war or not is irrelevant, you have a job to do. Raise your voice when you get out of country, but you don;t do it while in country - that would be probably be illegal under the Uniform Code but would also be very difficult on you and your mates - since you're in combat. I really see no contradiction here. Maybe I'm just being obtuse. Happens a lot.

And, if he did committ atrocities (can you get me a reference?) I think that your statement that " That didn't have anything to do with his duty or following orders." IS FALSE. A lot of atrocities were committed over there, it is EXTENSIVELY documented and it is also very clear to a lot of people that it wasn;t just "spontaneous" - it was condoned or in some cases ordered by superiors. (remember My Lai?)

I really don;t recall him committeing atrocities, so your statement that "And if he really did commit them, how can he say he is "proud" of his service to our country?" seems irrelevant to me, but even if it were true one can certainly be proud of serving one's country, even if one didn't serve it "gloriously" - my own, meager, experience bears this out. And I met a lot of Marines over there who thought it was a damned stupid war - but they were going to serve their country proudly and honorably and they are some of the best people I have ever known (I usually disagree with their politics, but that's another story).

As someone above said, walk a mile in their shoes first...it's easy to second guess someone thirty years after the fact, and about what they did in war...

In any case, I am VERY interested in getting some references that say Kerry himself committed atrocities. Can you point me towards some?

thanks,

Alarik

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Oh dear sweet mother of all things holy I hope your joking because that is the biggest load of bull I've ever had anyone try to force feed down my throat other then the guy who tried to convince me he was having bigfoots baby.

A.) Canada is not worth being hit by a terrorist attack to a terrorist organization because as renegade pointed out so well THEY HAVE an ity bitty tiny population that is not as centralized as the average US big city nor are they as nationally diverse so blowing up a building in Canada would only kill Canadians and most likely far fewer dead (the terrorists were attempting to knock the towers over not make them collapse, estimated body count was nearly 100,000 dead had the towers fallen while rescue personnel were on scene and while the other buildings and streets below were crowded as their fall would have lead to a chain reaction for multiple blocks and killed so many people it's scary), in canada you just couldn't kill that many people that easily unless you dropped a nuke so less body count means less publicity which means not worth it.
And as for Canadians themselves being morally superior because they never fund rebel Groups or anything, uh THEY'RE TOOO POOR buddy! Hand a blue Canadian dollar to a middle easterner he'd use it for toilet paper and then laugh at you (heck he might give it back in the mail)so of course your not funding terrorist Groups.

Ahem TERRORISTS HATE EVERYONE OF A DIFFERENT RELGION look at their doctrines, they hated us for soo many reasons you can't DARE simplify it as a "oooh big bad americans made dumb mistakes during the cold war" crap and th soviet union funded rebels to are they going after Russia.........NO so that blows that theory right clean out of the water buddy.
Oh and no offense to any Canadians here, I hear it's a lovley country with polite people but lets face it in the grand world scheme of things most of the 3rd world nations probobly don't know what Canada is while 99.999% of the world knows of that huge ol' country the United States.

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What can say you Canadians like practicing your shooting.....does it have anything to do with hockey or is Canadian squrrel that tasty? (heh sorry I'm just kidding)

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And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the rest of the world calls Americans arrogant.

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Next time you're in Canada, try looking up a show called 'Talking To Americans'. They talk to university and college students as well as political candidates including presidential candidates when they can. I'm not sure if they are still running it, but if you can catch a show called 'This hour has 22 minutes' they'll have re-runs. Then, you can talk about the differences between Canada and the US.

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Actually if you pay attention to the wording it is hardly arrogant, Americans have been everyhwere and usually it's in large numbers.
As others have pointed out so politely Canadians don't much go to other countries (em masse) so go ahead and ask an Afghani child if they know who Canada is I doubt theyd know.

How is that possibly arrogant or even insulting? It's just a matter of where your nation goes en masse vs where "private citizens" go and let's face it there are countries we here in the industrialized west don't know about (i'm talking on a citzen basis NOT government) and they probobly on average don't know much about north America so what are you claimimg i'm being arrogant by saying there are places in the world that your average joe on the street of a 3rd world country don't know about?

I mean damn man if you take everything an American says expecting it to sound arrogant and rude your going to find a way to twist it in your mind to sound arrogant and rude no?


Anyway Renegade as to what happened to my friend it was actually funny, he was stuck in Canada for two days before being "deported" (can't remember what they actually called it at the moment) to the US. basically they just sent him home because his passport was not entirely in order even after all the beurocratic stuff that took 2 days to find out what was wrong lol. but he hadn't done anything illegal so it was no big deal but it's not like the RCMP gave him a lawyer when they questioned him for the 4 hours.
Either way he thought it was funny because of the fact that his parents made a goof and he got to stay in Canada for two more days of vacation while the mess was sorted out. You know he never did tell me what was wrong with the passport heh.

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"Tried to knock it down"??? If you want to tip over a building, you take out the supports. Ever watch a controlled building demolition? You don't see Engineers toppling a building blowing it from the top floors. Terrorists are a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them. If they were stupid they would have been caught at the Airport.

This is the first time I've heard your explanation. Sounds like more "fear propoganda" to keep Bush's base controlled & paranoid.

So you're, what, saying that it's all right to fund terrorist Groups and start rebellions? I think it's time you put aside your copy of SE:IV and smelled the coffee.

As for knocking our currency, well, have at it all you want. Poke all the fun you want at our Military too. At the end of the day our Soldiers will still be alive (and mostly home) while your Men & Women are off getting ripped apart in Iraq. The joke's on you, and I wish it weren't.

Who's talking about the Cold War. I specifically mentioned the Taliban. Had the United States not supplied funding & weapons to Bin Laden during the 80's & 90's the 9/11 attack may not have happened.

Terrorists have no problems with other Religions, as long you don't try to impose another Religion on to them. Unfortunately the U.S. likes to go around shoving Christianity down foreign throats, and that, young man, doesn't help your Country.

An ignorant comment from a waste of space.

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This is going nowhere... perhaps all involved should take the night off to cool down.

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I would have to say I disagree with you here Katchoo on both of your statements: Islam itself have no problems with other religions, and some "islamic" "terrorist" indeed take "care" in choosing their targets, but quite frankly, you cannot expect a group of men that follow a man who wants to establish a pan-arabic islamic sheikdom that "will" destroy jews, judaism, christianity, christians, and others that walk amongst "pure muslims who must pretend tolerance but deep down hate them (those belonging to other than their brand of islam) for what they are" that was sheltered by a radical militant group that shot women on sight for showing their ankles and bazooka-ed priceless peices of human heritage because they saw it as an affront to the Quran religious tolerance.

And the US government has never, ever, imposed christianity onto other nations. American missionaries are indeed numerous in many nations, and more go abroad each day, but they do it for their own beliefs, not for some political-religious agenda. And Countries can always reject these missionaries; whether they are accepted or rejected, that is a matter for the populace of the nations that are being evangelized to decide.

Edit: I agree with Fyron. This thread is IMHO becoming degrading, in both senses of the word. Let's all take a moment to calm down and if anyone should want to restart the discussion, be civil in doing so.

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Not ignorant again pay attention to the Posts above yours and actually read on commentary made by others many of the folks here agree with what I've been saying about some national politics.


You need to read some history books my friend and when you do then I'll come back and reply to you. I mean I made mistakes but most of that was fatigue what is your excuse for not even knowing when the Cold War was going on?

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Yeah I'm sure my friend would have just loved him commenting on her boyfriend being torn apart in Iraq....that's just the mental picture she'd like in he rmind of her boyfriends Last moments.

Oh and I just love the way you basically said he died fighting in some sort of crusade....yeah she'd love you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

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Frankly I can't be bothered to hang around here any longer. This place is going downhill while waiting for the next Release.

I'll see you all after SE:V comes out.

Read ya later.