Re: A pirates life for me...
 

The secret bases are no mod, they're just space stations hidden in storm sectors, or (not so secretly) in asteroid fields.

Some of the mods that I did make:
A machine shop, much smaller than the original repair bay, but only does 1 component per turn. Good to fit on regular ships if you feel like it.
Ablative Armor. 5 Levels, 1Kt space, 6 to 15 Kt damage absorption. Note that shields provide 8 hitpoints per Kt at best. This is so that there is a point to armor in combat. You can either have shields, which regen after battle, are armor, which must be repaired slowly, but protects better.
Shields: the hitpoint values have been swapped from normal & phased. I figure, you can either have more hitpoints, OR block phased weapons. Its another tradeoff decision, that depends of what your enemy is doing. Shields also regenerate a token amout of shields during battle (5 points for Shield V) Its just for atmosphere, really, the only real effect is on the difficulty of ship capture.
I also spread shield regenerators out, so you get A new regenerator level every two shield tech levels, rather than all at the end.
I also boosted the output of Massive Planetary Shields, to 10,000, seeing as they were pretty useless as they were. I may even boost that higher, and make the ruins technology researchable, at the end of the tech tree.


For a humans vs Humans game, I would probably make bases have limited supply, and resupply depots more expensive, So solar panels are needed, (or resupply ships).

Just thought of another thing I did:
Supply storage: is now 5KT of space.
If you think about it, an engine stores the same amount of supply PLUS moves your ship. Supply storage should be smaller than an engine, rather than LARGER.

What I also want to do (when exams are over) is to add components for an organic race, such that most components have living Versions that will regenerate just like the armor. HaHa. Those Ion weapons won't slow me down for long http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Tachyon bLasters? One turn and the organic weapons are ba-aack http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif Not sure what the disadvantage would be. Cost, maybe?

Crossover techs would be really cool. Such as organo-crystalline armor, that pumps up shields AND regenerates when destroyed.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 06 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

My home planet is not shielded or cloaked at all (I've had an average of 7000 research over 80 turns) I just have 5 Defence Stations & a fleet of 10LCs in orbit. Plus 50 missile/PDC/Spy sats

Mostly, alien ships don't return home to tell the tale of the pirate home system, but join my empire instead http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

The only classically "secret" thing I have is my hidden base in a nebula system. Once that is operational, I will have no further need for my home planet, except as for the (painfully slow) armor & psychic research. Everything else, I can steal.

One thing that a pirate race REALLY needs is a Tiny space yard for constructing hidden bases early on. Perhaps a 100KT SY, that builds 300KT /turn & repairs nothing. Then you could cram one on an escort (with two movement points) and get a hidden base going immediately.
With my low construction trait, i'd be getting a 150Kt rate, so It would take many years to finish a real construction base. But I could start early. Even with no planet, I could build capture ships, grab a colony, and be back in the research business.
As it is it took 80 turns before the aliens... I mean My empire http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif discovered Cruiser hulls.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 06 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Hidden bases don't need to be in a nebula, armor four or five gives you camoflage armor that lets you cloak your ships before cloaking devices come Online and provides some defense too. Build space stations in astroid belts with remote miners on them, and cloak the ship, later scrap these and build base-ships so you don't have to worry about the astroid/planet your looting becoming strip mined and useless.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Suicide - you are the reincarnation of Blackbeard - sounds like you are doin w/pirates what I was attempting to do w/my 1st post - good job - maybe I can attempt this play style myself soon.

happy hunting

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

You can make a component using the ability 'Sector - Sight Obscuration' line. This basically hides everything, up to the level you want it to work. I've played around with it a little, and if a ship or base has a component like this, it can hide an entire planet. There's lots of stuff that can be done using this.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Cool! Hidden bases think of the possibilities!

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

It's more than just hidden bases. You can already do that with regular cloaking. With this, you can make a base that cloaks the entire planet.

[This message has been edited by Lupusman (edited 06 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Is anybody interested in getting my components & race file for Pirates?


With the sector- hiding ability, does it leave any indication, like a storm pic, or just empty space?
It could be really funny if you walked into a system, and saw no stars, or just one that was offset like a binary. Little do you know that there's two sphereworlds full of ships two squares away...

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

It hides planets, ships and bases, etc, but not storms, suns, or warp points. I'm pretty sure there are stars in the background so it looks just like normal space. I didn't even try ringworlds or spheres to see if that worked. It might hide it like all the other constructed things, or it might act like a sun, and not hide it.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I like the machine shop idea. Makes perfect sense for a pirate race.
What did you do with your original homeworld?
Can facilities be cloaked? If all facilities could be cloaked wou7ld the colony be invisible until the proper scanner was used? You really should have to search for pirates.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Suicide - I'd like to take a look at em if you don't mind - you're earlier Posts got my mind to wandering and I've come up w/some other potential pirate tech (none unbalancing, but more test/thinking need to be had)...

The only thing you didn't mention that I feel a pirate race might need (and that I'm toying with) a ScrapYard... a smaller space yard, say 100KT, that can't repair or build anything - but is based on the space yard component so it can be used to scrap and recover resources from captured ships.

I also like the machine shop & the mini space yard (low repair abilities and lower build rate than a norm SY) but I called it a Retro Yard - used to retrofit capture space hulls in the field. A rate of say 500/750/1000 for the 3 different levels...

ideas and comments always welcome

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 07 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

That scrap yard would provide the same abilities of the retro yard.

All you have to do is make a space yard that builds with 0 resources per turn.


The mini space yard was only really intended as a method of getting started on secret nebula-bases during the early years, since it won't require a cruiser hull, but only an escort hull (crammed), or a frigate hull (full movement), or destroyer (some defence)

It is clear to me that the first Ten years are most critical for a pirate race. They have to keep their homeworld alive & pumping research until they get ship capture. Then it's less critical, but still very important for retrofits, until you get cruisers around turn 80, and then can build secret bases by turn 100. A pirate racial trait that gives quick access to tiny space yards & basic ship capture would solve these problems, but until then its an epic struggle to capture the newest tech before you are overwhelmed.

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One thing that I have just recently added, is a bifurcation of the PD tech. Point defence Cannons, are kinetic-kill weapons, so they do good damage, but only at short range (2-4) PD lasers, do less damage (1/2), but extend out to range 4-8.

This works good, since you have to balance each type. Cannons defend you, lasers defend your fleet, but less powerfully.

Other than that, they are identical. I think I may link the cannons to DUC techs and the lasers to energy stream techs. Both will still require PD tech.

[edit]
The zip should contain:
-components.txt
-Facilities.txt (only the massive planetary shields changed)
-TechArea.txt (only a few increases of max levels)
-Pirate Alliance.emp Some basic settings for the Pirates. Anything thats not at its minimum value may be changed to your preferences, and you'll still be pirates.

Tell me if anything is missing/not working

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 07 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
That scrap yard would provide the same abilities of the retro yard.

All you have to do is make a space yard that builds with 0 resources per turn.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was my thinking also - I played around and made one Last nite - based it on a SY - 100KT size, 1/4 the cost to build, no repair abilities & no build abilities. The concept is that it would be available early in the game and would be able to be placed on a small hull and taken to the front lines and used to rapidly recover resources from captured ships.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The mini space yard was only really intended as a method of getting started on secret nebula-bases during the early years, since it won't require a cruiser hull, but only an escort hull (crammed), or a frigate hull (full movement), or destroyer (some defence)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The mini space yard would be good in this early role but I kinda saw it as a component that is available after the retro yard. kind of cross b/t the retro yard and the full SY...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>A pirate racial trait that gives quick access to tiny space yards & basic ship capture would solve these problems, but until then its an epic struggle to capture the newest tech before you are overwhelmed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought this also, so I created a special tech area called Pirate Tech. Since this new are is not in the other AIs tech research files, they won't research it and thus won't be confused over the use of the specialized components that come out from this area. Actually, I just made my new components (your Machine Shop, Retro Yard, Refit yard, or small space yard if you will, and a small colony unit I'm toying around with) all require 2 tech abilities - ie. a machine shop needs level 1 in repair and level 1 in Pirate Tech...

The colony thing is just mind candy - thought about a small, slow moving limited cargo capacity, semi cheap colony ship only available to pirates - haven't thought it all the way through yet. Hull size of 150KT, 2 engine max, no cargo holds, colony unit size of 100kt that holds only 1M people...

thanks for the files - I'll look em over in the next couple of days.


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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I don't know about the colonies.

I'm thinking that pirates should not be expanding by colonizing planets, but by building scrap yard/ retrofit bases in the outlying systems.

Then you just take your ships to scrap for funds or retro for more capture ability.

If pirates start colonizing, then research gets too high & resource production gets high & then they can build their own ships with more advanced tech.

I would like a pirate race that has no need for planets after the first year or so.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

It is very difficult to create a Pirate Race without some house rules for the human. The AI could be programmed to a degree but would be difficult to.
To exclude all the colony, mining, research and intel techs would require the entire current tech tree to be made a racial trait. Then each AI would have to be programmed to accept it.
You can design pirate facilities, weapons and such and make them a racial trait. When you choose to play a pirate you would restrict yourself to items on the main tech tree that were not available in the pirate trait.
I would love to play this type of race. It would be a great change from the normal game.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I shoulda been a little clearer - the pirate colony ship was meant to replace the normal colony ship - smaller size, lower cargo, slower speed should be a good handicap to the pirate race... I meant for the race to not use the normal large colony ships. A pirate race couldn't afford the subtraction of 45M population so the 1M that the smaller colonizer used would be more appropriate, the slower speed is meant to limit their expansion.

the only problem I have to figure out is how to program a race to NOT use the normal colonizers... also, I would like to be able to limit a pirate colony to only small or tiny planets - don't know how or even if it's possible to do this.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

If you don't want to depopulate, just use a standard colony ship and manually transfer 1M.

The point I'm trying to make is that pirates should not have ANY colonies.

In the game I'm playing, My homeworld has been producing more resources than I need. The two colonies just add to that.

Only recently have I run low. Since I recently got Crew converters, and I'm trying to retrofit 60 ships.
After running out of minerals, I started trading with the other races, but now I'm out of organics & radioactives too. I've actually had to capture ships for scrap, and I get just over one ship retroed for each scrap ship.

IMO, pirates should not be using planetary-made resources like this. Scrapping should be important, so therefore no colonies should be allowed. Captured Colony ships provide 100% of my new colonies (so far, 100 turns in, thats two colonies & one on the way after repairs)

I am in 1st place, with higher tech than anybody else and haven't built a single colony ship! I control 3 planets and one colony ship.

It is my firm belief that (human) pirates do not need, and should not have colony tech in any way shape or form. Colony Captures are unavoidable, but acceptable.

-----------------
How did I get first in tech levels with only 10,000 research points you ask?
Simple - everybody else researched different tech areas, and I stole 'em all.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I agree w/you on the point that pirates should get their research & resources from capturing ships. However, w/o a small at least, colony base building intell centers any race that specializes in intell ops would be able to cause quite a bit of havok.

One could simply manually limit oneself to only loading 1M colonist, not placing more than 2 engines on a colony ship or by manually not moving a colony ship more than 2 engines movement worth per turn but to me, it's more fun to have a specific colony ship type for pirates that are designed to behave in the manner I want it to. A self imposed limit (I wish I knew of some way to program the limitation into the component) on colonization I would use is to only colonize tiny or small planets (actually leaning toward only tiny - moons, etc). this, to me, would help prevent any overexpansion (pop wise) of the race while providing a small core of planets to build intell centers on.

just my 2 cents worth - feedback is always helpfull.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Perhaps it would be better to just give the pirate race a huge intel bonus (eg. +400%)

But anyways, Intel I is a 100,000 point tech, and with 5000 research, and ship capture to research, Intel can't be a priority.

Maybe only allow defensive Intel projects, but give the pirates a bonus of 50,000 Intel points /turn as a racial trait.


I just turned off intel, the simplest solution.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Opps - double posted - erased this one

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Turning off intell chops a favorite leg out of the game (at least for me)...

You make sense about the cost of intellegence being a little prohibitive to the pirate race. So we need a way for the pirates to be competitive (or at least able to give some kind of a defense to intell attacks) in the intell area w/o hampering the other races.

As I said earlier, I made a special tech area for Pirates called Pirate Tech (my imagination is a little slow). This new tech area allows for the creation of special pirate techs w/o having to worry bout the other races getting corrupted w/em - since they never research PT they will not get the special components.

I made the PT a 5000 cost increment. This should keep all the spec comp'nts w/in reach of the race w/o making em free. Stuck it under theroreticall scienses, and put a max of 5 on it.

At level PT lvl 1 - you get the Machine Shop if you have repair lvl 1 w/improvements when you reach repair lvl 2 & 3... you wld get the RetroFit Yard (a 100KT SY w/no build or repair ablitiies - only recovery of scrap resources for early game)... you get the Pirate Intell Center I (which I created to give the pirates a fighting chance in the intell war) which gen's 500 intell points along w/the intell project Pirate Counter Intell I(no other intell projects are available - this is only to allow the pirates to run counter intell projects)...also a smaller pirate colony component & smaller pirate colony ship - want to find a way to make these the only colony options for the pirate race but outside of having the human simply agree not to use any other I can't figure it out.

At PT lvl 2 - you get Pirate Intell center II w/Pirate counter intell II, a small SY (200Kt size w/reduced build rate - the Pirate SY II & III wld be given when you reached SY tech II & III)

At PT lvl 3 - you get Pirate Intell center III w/Pirate counter intell III

I believe at med tech cost the research cost is 5000, 10000, 22500 for the 3 levels - much cheaper than the intell field but w/less intell options (no offensive projects or data gathering ones)

I would preferr to make all of the above available in a racial trait instead of the added tech area but I don't know how to mod that.

feedback?

ps - hope ya'll don't mind my bouncing these ideas around in this thread but all the feedback is very helpfull

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Do you have a good reason why Pirates should be colonizing? (aside from technical issues like intel)

It may not be obvious, but I really don't think Pirates should be building colony ships. The few colony ships that they can capture (but not retrofit) will be plenty IMO, allowing a minimal expansion, though I would prefer to reduce that even more. I have averaged one new planet every 25 turns (counting my homeworld) and have scrapped/analysed/destroyed twice that.

My military is over 5x larger than my neighbors, considering that 90% of my ships are captured, and i have 50% build rate. I did that with only my homeworld producing resources. Colonies would make the pirates too powerful for human players to use.

--------------------------------------

How about increasing the output of the pirate Intel facility, to maybe 2000.

The pirates are only gonna have one world for the first 5 years or so, which will balance that out. (if they don't get colony tech)

----------------------------------------

Is it possible to have a racial trait give a fixed rate intel bonus? (ie. X points per turn)

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Pirates just gotta have a base. Where else can you bury your treasure http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
I've got some basic Pirate buildings made. I could e-mail them to you for your modification. My thoughts were to give them some new buildings that were cheap and performed a lot of functions so that you wouldn't be tempted to build the regular types.
Creating a whole tech tree is a pain though. More than I can do in a reasonable time.
I have created some special techs and the Pirate racial trait ( I'm as imaginative as you are http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif ) I'll be glad to give my ieas to someone who has a little more know how than me. Just my ideas and I have never tested them.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Nitram - thanks for the offer - and send me your info at WhiteHojo@hotmail.com and I'll see if I can use it... And I agree w/ya - a pirate w/o a base is just a roving nomad and not a pirate. All that looting and plundering takes alot out of a mate, and you need a home colony to return to (this ain't waterworld)-

As far as having a good reason to be colonizing - yep - cause they gotta expand like any other race or as you point out, more pragmatically they need someway to have a chance in the intell buisness. Unless you just disable the intell option as you did, you need the colonies for the intell centers if nothing else.

If the fear is that they'd be too powerfull w/colonies - sounds like they're too powerfull w/o em so the answer should be to reconfigure them to be not so unbalanced. Give em more penalties, etc.

Also, I can't understand what your objection is to colonies as a game issue (any personal bias not coming into play)? I envision pirate colonies to be on tiny or small planets (limits facilities to 6 to 12 per breathable planet and 1 to 2 fac'lts per nonbreathable) then filling em w/intell centers to use counter intel... no mining/farming/radcollection facilities...

My feeling is a race should expand at some rate, slow for the pirates in my opinion.

I haven't play tested any of these new components yet so I can't really give a informed opinion on their effect and the overall effectiveness of the pirate race as I envision it.

The larger intell output would be required if you severly limited the races expansion (and by limiting it to 1 home planet, that's pretty dang severe) - I'd have to test it out first i suppose

As far as racial traits - I've toyed around w/em but haven't really figured it out - I'll keep fidgetting w/it and let ya know - keep me posted of your findings - thanks

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

[This message has been edited by WhiteHojo (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Creating a whole tech tree is a pain though. More than I can do in a reasonable time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My tech tree and related components didn't take that much time or effort - the components were just modified from existing ones w/the addition of a 2nd required tech (pirate tech) to discover em. Was alot easier to do than I thought it would be and didn't take as much time as you might think... you ought to give it a try.




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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

How about a compromise on the colony issue, just have pirates only be allowed to colonize only the small moons nothing bigger then say tiny and/or small. Pirates really didn't have countrie per sae, Which brings up another issue. What about atmosphere? what would/should they breathe? As for intell what if before you could use against them you first have to find one of the planets or hidden bases? You could only use against them as long as you have a location of the base or planet. Once it was destroyed or captured you wouldn't be able to again to another one is found? Pirates were not easy to find so intell should not be that easy to use against them until they are found. If you use planets you should also use specal bases for the rest. just some ideas. Mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

mac, your idea of only colonizing tiny/small moons is almost the same as what I had in mind. I don't see pirates inhabiting med or large or huge sized planets. The small easily ignored moons to me are ideal for pirates.

As for atmosphere - I liked suicides original idea of choosing "none" for the atmos - just seems like a true choice - also makes the moons a logical colony/base target.

Your idea of limiting the ability of other races to use intell vs. a pirate race sounds interesting but I don't know of any way to mod that - I think that would have to be changed in the games program. I like the idea of it though - kinda like having a empire loose contact w/a pirate race unless it is contact w/one of their ships(can see it & can only deal w/the race so long as it can view one of its ships) or knows where one of their bases are (& if that base is destroyed, the empire looses contact w/the race)



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My feeling is a race should expand at some rate, slow for the pirates in my opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. But the pirates already expand fairly fast by capturing colony ships.

[edit]I also consider the outlying secret bases as a major expansion of my empire. Basically without intel to worry about, those bases have more value to me than a planet.[/edit]

I could have had 8 planets already, which is more than a number of races have, and I would still be winning even if somebody glassed every one of my planets.

Heck, even if my sun went nova, taking out half my fleet & all my planets, I'd still come back because of my hidden bases & outlying fleets (& zero maintenance). Just using captured ships retroed at my secret bases from now on would be enough for me to win.

What I'm saying is that playing Pirates without colony abilities, and having super-powerful intel centers for the homeworld, would make it reasonably fair.

If we ever get the ability to have an intel producer on a station, then even the homeworld would be only a minor advantage after the station intel goes up.

All assuming Pirates don't get offensive intel.

[This message has been edited by suicide_junkie (edited 08 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Truthfully, I had forgotten about your secret bases (guess cause they wuz secret). That might make some difference - if a starbase could ever generate intell points, I wouldn't have as big a problem as I do now.

I would think a self imposed limit on the rate of your colonization would be needed - the slower, smaller pop pirate colonizer would help limit it... maybe if we could deny the normal colony component to pirates and force em to use the smaller/slower component and then bump the cost to build em way up that would limit their expansion while still allowin em the capability to be competitve in the intell buisness.

Forgot to mention earlier, I don't see pirates taking over and keeping other races colonies - just not what they're about in my mind... maybe allowing em to capture then plunder & loot (scrap all facilities) a colony b/f jettisoning the pop and abandoning the colony. A little harsh but w/in the races persona.

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I think you could get around the colony problem by starting the game with only colonize your home planet type and only colonize planet with breathable atmosphere. Then pick none as you atmoshpere. Rock as your type. This should yield a lot of moons for bases.
Any colony ships captured should have their cargo jettisoned in the true pirate fashion, walk the plank you scurvy bastards!
I'm gonna find the time top play this race I swear it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

forgot to mention in Last post and Nitram brought it up in his - all captured colony ships should be scrapped and there cargo jettisoned - aaaaaarrrrrr ye matey!!!

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ, bases are only hidden until found or the tech is found in order to find them. I suggested a compromise, this way both ideas are incorporated into the game. They are both great ideas we just have to figure the best way to use them. Pirates really had excellent intell on their targets, therefore they should have high intell in game, but there should be way to also combat this if and when you obtain the tech to do so. What about ships? Pirates were fast, quick and deadly, very rare did they have large warships like ships-of-the-line, etc, maybe limit them to only having capacity to build
nothing larger then BC's or BB's, no dreadnaughts or baseships. They would have to capture one in order to have it. they should also have high cunnning, violent, untrustworthy traits. Deal with them but don't trust them. they will bite the hand that feeds them. Just some ideas, I think this Pirate idea is one of the best. I just hope it all comes together. I think it would really add something extra to the game

mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>capture then plunder & loot (scrap all facilities) a colony b/f jettisoning the pop and abandoning the colony<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All we need for that is to set the resource production of the pirates low enough (25% anyone?) so that the pirates would get more resources by scrapping the facilities than by letting them run until the AI glassed the planet.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't see pirates taking over and keeping other races colonies - just not what they're about in my mind<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Neither do I, but I really don't see them sending out their own settlements.
I mean, why would they bother building their own colony ships, when they can capture pre-built ships for free?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I would think a self imposed limit on the rate of your colonization would be needed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you have to capture colony ships to start colonies, thats a pretty good limit, IMO. It's not like they're excessivly rare or well defended, but they can't be built every two turns either (every turn on E-build & full, jubilant pop).

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Mac - are you pyshic??? I at one point was thinking about limiting em to LC or Cruiser sized hulls but didn't follow up - easily sidetracked I guess.

They would have to be able to design a ship of larger than C size so as to be able to retrofit it after being captured but I agree they shouldn't be able to build large ships from the ground up... Of course, if you are capturing BBs etc then why would you want to waste your time building em.

anybody else have any thoughts on this???

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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Wow. A lot of simultaneous Posts.

As for building big ships,

in my game, 50% build rate, even at my homeworld it takes 2 years to build a BC, and I could capture one from the drushocka in two turns, and have it back and retrofitted in 1/4th the time. Plus once I'm in their system, I'll probably cap two or three in a row before they amass a fleet to drive me away.

Theres no way I'm gonna build one on my own. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>SJ, bases are only hidden until found or the tech is found in order to find them<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats true http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon9.gif, but by the time anybody has super sensors, I'll have them too, and my bases will have MassiveMount deathrays with 250 missile sats spread around.

{by 'deathray' I mean I'll have whatever the best beam tech the enemies have come out with so far http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif}

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ,
IIRC you are playing with no maintenance. I think pirates should pay at least normal maintenance, tough to get parts, or at best 5-10% less. This would give them an incentive to keep the fleets small but powerful.
In a Last man standing game the Pirates really should not be able to win but they should be fun to play http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
Don't know how you could get a Pirate victory if no one wins? Have to look at the victory conditions a little closer, I always play Last man standing like the rest of the players seem to do.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Normal maintenance would hurt bad. I'd be scrapping 5% of my fleet per turn just to maintain 'em.

Consider that I generate 7000 minerals per turn, and have to support 40 LCs to maintain control of my 4 systems. I have an alien race right beside me, who really likes large fleets, but may be a neutral.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ In your game, have you tried taking another player and fighting against an AI controlled pirate yet? If so how did that come out? Maybe that would give us some ideas as to what to use or not. Also what if we took some of the various ideas and make some of them options? that way you could play them with the different ideas and see which ones worked or didn't work, or for each persons personal preferences. just an idea or two. mac

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

From reading the different ideas, i think we need to first decide.
1. should the pirates have a chance to win the game or just be a fun playing pain in the neck race. if they are to have chance to win, what amount or same as other races
2. Should they be allowed to colonize or just capture planets in order to have a chance in the game.
3. playability, maybe some ideas should be made options that way everyone could pick which way they want to set it up and would the AI be able to play the pirate race without to much tweaking of game?
4. What should their largest ship size be?
Definitly nothing larger then a BB or BC
5. what should they be allowed to research?
6. Racial traits. such as Berserker, violent, schemers, high intell, high cunning, and the percentages. Also should they start with hi intel or research it,
7. What type of bases, small, med, large,
and what type of cloaking should they have?
8. do they get special (their race only) research areas, weapons, clocking, etc)
9. Will they be allowed to use captured population to colonize other planets?
Maybe hojo and/or SJ could make up a list and have everyone vote or give ideas on these or others you can think of. This could give us a starting point. Just some idea's
10. I forgot, maintenance,
mac
sorry about the double post, i over clicked

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 09 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Well, IMO,

1) Yes. a reasonable chance to win, (but AI's would really screw up and lose every time I'm sure)

2) only captured colony ships for me. I believe that the pirates should not need a planet to survive.

3)AI is really not flexible and I seriously doubt that anybody could get them to play decently as Pirates (even MM). Against a human, the Human would glass their planets & only use large fleets. The Strategic capture routines are tough, too.

4) With 50% construction rate, I find that it is not worth a Pirate's time to build even LCs. Allowing full sizes of hull does not mean the pirates will build them. I find LCs take over a year to build.

5) Pirates should be allowed to research all the normal techs (mainly by theft) plus any special techs they are given.

6) Research 50%
Intel 500% if possible
Mineral/organic/radioactives 25% if possible
0% or 1% maintenance (requires Merchants w/o modding)
Bloodthirsty would make sense.
Construction rate 50%
Reproduction 91% (minimum)
Environment resist 50% (minimum)

Everything else is optional.

7) All bases, normal cloaking. Space stations take 1&1/2 years to build, so a Starbase sized place in unlikely but possible.

8) Pirates need only early ship capture, & early mobile space yards.
Perhaps just a new hull that's 550KT, requires 50% construction components. (ie escort plus ShipYard) available right away, like a colony ship for everybody else.

9) Yes. How would you stop them from using slaves?

10) As in (6), zero to one percent would be good.


Pirates require a somewhat disorganized military to feed off of. Humans would be nearly impossible to Pirate against, especially by an AI.

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Note: there is an option (check box) in the "edit" mode to delete your extra post.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

SJ, if it takes that long to build a LC and the pirates use capture to increase their fleet wouldn't we have to start them off with at least 4-5 ships or more, with capture tech in order to increase their fleet? Otherwise I don't see how they would be able to keep up in the very beginning as far as ship go. They should also have starting tech in order to scan the ships to see which ones were colony ships. Some players use Ca's and others instead of the colony ship design. As far as what Whojo and I were talking about only colonizing the tiny/small planets only, what if you used them as bases only with say limited 50-100 pop. These could be used as quick in system bases until they could build a base. just an idea. I know the AI is limited, i've been a wargamer since the 8th grade both board and computer and AI design & programing need work but it would be nice to be able to play both pirate and against them as well. Oh well, we can only try..
just some ideas. Mac
pirate race looking better all the time

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Let me tell you of my first years as a pirate:

It was a dark and stormy turn...

First think I built was a spacestation with a Space Yard.
First thing I researched with my 100k points was The military science required for Ship Capture.

After four turns, I had a pair of escorts retrofitted with ship capture and some wimpy little gun.

Immediately, I sent them out and captured two enemy ships (escort & frigate)

Analysing both, I got Frigates & AP Is.

Now, I changed my homeplanet & orbital factory over to frigate production (1/2 year)

Repeated captures with my escorts got me frigates that I could convert to capture ships.

Then it snowballed, as the drushocka showed up with LCs, basic Shields, some other guys with APBs and no shields, and I captured all those techs. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gifThank-you come again http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Basically, I got ship con. From the drushocka, APBs from these silver aliens, Shields from the drushocka, and Engines from the yellow guys with the Shard cannons. I've also got missile tech from these blue aliens, but I don't use it.

Combining all these stolen tech areas gives me the highest number of tech levels in the game so far http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I can understand pirates not having full fledged colonies, but how are you resupplying your ships?

JC

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mac5732:
From reading the different ideas, i think we need to first decide.
1. should the pirates have a chance to win the game or just be a fun playing pain in the neck race. if they are to have chance to win, what amount or same as other races
2. Should they be allowed to colonize or just capture planets in order to have a chance in the game.
3. playability, maybe some ideas should be made options that way everyone could pick which way they want to set it up and would the AI be able to play the pirate race without to much tweaking of game?
4. What should their largest ship size be?
Definitly nothing larger then a BB or BC
5. what should they be allowed to research?
6. Racial traits. such as Berserker, violent, schemers, high intell, high cunning, and the percentages. Also should they start with hi intel or research it,
7. What type of bases, small, med, large,
and what type of cloaking should they have?
8. do they get special (their race only) research areas, weapons, clocking, etc)
9. Will they be allowed to use captured population to colonize other planets?
Maybe hojo and/or SJ could make up a list and have everyone vote or give ideas on these or others you can think of. This could give us a starting point. Just some idea's
10. I forgot, maintenance,
mac
sorry about the double post, i over clicked

[This message has been edited by mac5732 (edited 09 March 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Here's the Hojo 2 cents worth - and I think it's overpriced at that...

1) When a human plays any race that race will always have a chance to win the game - even playing a neutral or a limited pirate, a human will find a way to win.

I should state up front that I agree w/SJ in that I am not too confident that a Pirate race could be Modded to be a viable computer controlled race - too many problems, the AI's inability to perform ship capture comes to mind for one. I'm prefacing all my answers and commentary to the idea that the pirate race will be controlled by a human.

2) I think (and this is where me and SJ seem to disagree the most) that a pirate race should colonize, but at a very slow rate w/severe handicaps, such as colony ships that only hold 1M colonist, can only have 2 engines on the colony ship, can't have any cargo or supply containers (limits their range), should only be able to colonize Tiny Moons (maybe Small also but I'm waffling on that one), etc.
A pirate should NEVER use captured colony ships to colonize new planets - just don't seem right to me - to me, the proper pirate reaction to capturing a colony ship is jettison the pop and analyze the hull for tech or scrap it for resources.

3) the playability, meaning to me the initial setup of the race along w/any special components designed specifically for pirates, is the most important and probably critical point in playing a Pirate race. SJ has some good ideas and so does Mac about initial setup - to me, the Maint point is a very import'nt area cause as SJ points out a pirate race doesn't have the resource income to support an even small sized fleet. The other areas will have to be delved into as we go along. I've just started a game as a pirate w/50% Reas, 50% Ground combat (don't think pirates should be strong infantry type fighters - more a skirmer mentality than a full organized infantry ground combat thing), 100% intell, 50% Resources (the min), 91% Reprod (min also), 125% Attack & Defense, Nat Merchant, Prop expert & Psyc traits - I can't remember all settings right now but I did have something like 1875/5000 left. Started on bad homeworld in large system (150) w/18 total races all hand picked. So far around 60 turns into it, it is fairly slow and tough going. I'll post on it later this weekend hopefully.

4) Largest Ship size - agree w/SJ, it's easier to capture one than to build - basically I can't think of any reason to BUILD anything larger than a LC - esp w/the use of mine & SJ's smaller Pirate Ship Yard Component idea (I use one that is 200kt, and build at a rate of 500,750,1000 for it's 3 levels.)

5) they should have access to all the tech that a normal race has access to (along w/the special Pirate Tech I use to grant access to their special pirate components)

6) Racial traits go back to playability to me - we probably need a whole new thread just to discuss this point - I select nuetral for culture type instead of trying to fit it into beserker, worker, scientist, etc. As far as Happiness type and Demeanor I support Bloodthirsty and Violent...

7) Cloaking and BAses - access to all

8) I'm in favor a special racial trait for pirates granting em access to special tech (unfortunately I don't know how to mod that, so I simply created a special tech area and didn't include it in any of the other computer players research data files)

9) As I said earlier, I am strongly against letting a pirate race use a captured colony population to colonize a planet...

10) Maint - to me it needs more play testing to find out the effect it has on the pirate race as a playable and balanced race...

hope this hasn't run on too long but I felt I needed to throw in my opinions...

feedback as always is requested...



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Character is best defined as that which you do when you believe nobody is watching.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Thanks for asking http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Resupply has been accomplished in three ways:

1) Theft. My fleet captures a ship, which the AI keeps fully supplied. He then graciously shares said supplies with my ships, before being sent to the homeworld to be scrapped/analysed/retrofitted

2) Transfer from homeworld. Every retrofitted ship gets full supplies when it returns for the operation. Returning to the fleet supplies the fleet. Occasionally, a large fraction of the fleet will return home for supplies, and regular ships need upgrades every now and then.

3) Supply pods
With the New tech graciously supplied by the yellow crystal aliens, Supply ships have come into service. These hold 2 Resupply pods (4000 supplies), and repair bays, which fix the pods each turn. This easily maintains the fleets, which can now retrofit alien ships on their own, due to the doozer construction ships that have been sent.

----------------------------
Revelation for Pirates intel problem

THE INTEL PROBLEM IS NO MORE!

the simple solution to any intel woes is to abandon all your planets.

With no path to your planets (since you have none) other players will lose contact with you, preventing intel ops!

Booyah!

Since my pirates need no planets to survive, we're all set once we have a defended, hidden base.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

Ok: on the Pirate colony issue:

1) Pirates should be able to build their own colony ships only.

2) Pirates Should be able to use captured enemy colony ships only.

3) BOTH!

4) NEITHER!

-------------------------

#4 is clearly not a viable option
#3 is built in to SE
#2 is my opinion
#1 is going to be very hard to mod. (ie. impossible)

My view: Think of pirates on earth. A colony in the new world is wanted.
Pirates aren't going to be setting up colonies in the new world, since they just can't organize anything major like that, and provide supplies & money.

But if they happened to come upon one of England's colonization fleets, and captured them, the pirates would have everything they needed.

Of course, the colony they created would tend to be an easy target (no large country backing them up) and they'd be nuked to glass after a few turns.

Sorry for mixing Modern & historical like that wooden fort/city getting nuked http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

The problem with implementing 'pirates' as opposed to 'nomads' is that detection and identification are much too simple and easy in SE IV. In RL, pirates rely on the ability to avoid detection and to pass themselves off as 'civilians' - or at least someone else - when they cannot avoid contact. In SE, you can see EVERYTHING in a system when you enter it unless it is cloaked, and if you get the right sensors you can STILL see everything in a system. There is no range effect on sensors, and there is no 'percentage' chance to see something or not. If it's there, you can see it. If sensors were changed to have a definite RANGE like 'long range scanners' then the pirate races would be much more viable.

But even then, identification is too easy. There is no such thing as 'disguise' and there is no representation of 'civilian' traffic in SE IV. When you see a ship, EVEN a captured ship originally built by another race, you automatically know who controls it. This also ought to be changed to allow 'pirate' races to exist. There should be some way to make your ship seem to be controlled by the original race which built it if pirates are to be a success.

Both of these problems are much reduced with a merely 'nomadic' race. Add the ability to have components which generate research and intelligence, and a "habitat" ability that lets population grow while residing in a ship/base component, and you could have a fairly useful nomadic race even with the current very simply system of detection and identification in SE IV.

[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 09 March 2001).]

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

I think Pirates should not build colonies but the should build bases. Pirates always operated from a base and I've never heard of a Pirate nation.
I think tiny or small planets should be used as these bases. Special buildings that have multiple functions just for pirates. Cloaking the planet is a must. Pirates should have to be found. Maybe they could be cloaked like mines but only to level 4.
I don't think a Pirate could win in a hotseat or PBEM game so they should count it as a victory if they survive a set number of turns, 400-500 maybe?
I think the AI could never be a Pirate.
I gonna give it a try this week with some ideas I have. I'll post back.
There seems to be a lot of people trying this idea out. We should be able to get a new race out of this somehow http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon10.gif

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Thanks for asking http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not a problem I was curious about starting my own pirate game, always wanted to yell out away all boarding parties http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:

Resupply has been accomplished in three ways:

1) Theft. My fleet captures a ship, which the AI keeps fully supplied. He then graciously shares said supplies with my ships, before being sent to the homeworld to be scrapped/analysed/retrofitted

2) Transfer from homeworld. Every retrofitted ship gets full supplies when it returns for the operation. Returning to the fleet supplies the fleet. Occasionally, a large fraction of the fleet will return home for supplies, and regular ships need upgrades every now and then.

3) Supply pods
With the New tech graciously supplied by the yellow crystal aliens, Supply ships have come into service. These hold 2 Resupply pods (4000 supplies), and repair bays, which fix the pods each turn. This easily maintains the fleets, which can now retrofit alien ships on their own, due to the doozer construction ships that have been sent.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does this limit you to kind of a small area of operations? Seems like you would need to wait for an alien race to sort of blunder over your initial start area before you could really get into action. It's too bad we can't build facilities on asteroids since the asteroid pirate hideout seems to crop in sci-fi novels etc quite a bit. I agree pirates shouldn't be colonizing much if at all, but the idea of hidden supply bases on moons or asteroids would have been interesting. Maybe even one pirate haven, the homeworld with minor intel facilities etc, although it should be possible to build a ship/base intel component.

Re: A pirates life for me...
 

An example of a pirate nation would be the Barbary Coast of Algeria. A U.S. anti-piracy campaign there is what the "shores of Tripoli" line from the Marine Hymn is referring to.

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Cap'n Q