Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I would also give TheBirthdayParty a little slack as a newcomer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I didn't hear anything from him since he signed up on this thread, and his partner didn't either.

Yvelina wished that the forts would be removed (they mean the province can be taken without a fight), but the teams can build their own forts if they wish to share the province that way (flight, magic or keeping a strong base on the mainland are other possibilities).

I have received the nation picks for team 4 and 5, so once team 6 has made their pick we will proceed with choosing the second nations.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

There really arent that many forts. Just the special province in the middle of the big circle which I thought added flavor to the map. Then the other forts were wizard towers in the outer circles and a citadel leading out into the inner circle. I thought it was pretty cool to leave them in the game. Are the castles so bad that they need to be removed?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I put a post on BirthdayParty's thread looking for a new game, letting him know that you need him to contact you. He responded that he would.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I got his mail, and I have removed the notice about that from the first post in the thread.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

im in if there is enough room

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Sorry, but we are already at twelve players, so there is no more room for other players.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

No victory points or any other victory conditions expect total annilihation are not good .

If one team controls 70% of the map thnx to rushing but another team hoarded + turtled the turtling team has a really good chance to win .
Land possession says little about the strength of a nation .

I would say averagely a province is worth the equivalent of 3 clams and 3 fetishes cause in average a province will give you about 3 gems income and about 40 gold income when fully searched and with not really hostile scales .

In lategame thnx to wish astral pearls are the most important gems though so clams become even more important .

Anyways the assumption is not unlikely that on turn 70 e.g. team A will control 150 provinces and 100 clams , team B will control 40 provinces , but 400 clams and 200-300 fetishes e.g. .
Team B has then probably a better chance to win the game than team A though team A possesses 60% of the map .


So for the sake of real comptetition lets keep the victory condition of Total Annilihation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I've only played about 4 games all the way through. (Due to players dropping out) But from what I've seen, there's no need for victory conditions, let the players slug it out and the winner wins. <What Boron said>
-Yc
P.S. Boron. I'm going to get you this game!

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Hm.... After that post from Boron, how can he still say that clams are balanced???

Clams are actually the most unbalanced artifact in the game. They have a 5 turn or less payback, which is far too short. After those 5 turns, you have 5 pearls for 7 water gem investment (this is assuming you don't have any other bonus besides the hammer). And I think 5 pearls are just as good (probably really better) than 7 water gems. Making clams require 4 water magic skill (sugested by many others in this forum) means the payback is closer to 20 turns, which is far better balanced that a mere 2 water skill and a 5 turn payback.

The fact that Boron thinks a player with 3/4 of the territory can lose to a player with 1/4 of the territory means Dominions must be clearly busted in the late game, which is I something already knew for truth anyway.

I sure hope this gets fixed in Dom 3, or I might not be playing that one when it comes out. After all, there are good reasons why very few games are fought to the bitter end...

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I yield to the fine gentleman from Bavaria.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

The three other nations taken this time are Caelum, Mictlan and Vanheim. The three previous ones were C'tis, Pangaea and Pythium.

I will be sending the third row of mails, where the last three times will pick their second nation.

Note that Tuidjy's proposal does not require one team to have the vast majority of *all* the provinces: it merely requires one team to have a fair share (almost everything) of the mainland. I was thinking it would make standing off a much less appealing strategy, since leaving one team free to steamroll the central provinces would mean defeat faster than you could say "I wish VISA".

In this case, controlling the provinces would trigger victory not because of the power they give, but simply to make "aggressive defence" needed. You could even be meaner, and make it so the first team to control the six "gates" (provinces on the mainland leading to the isles) win the game, or something of the like.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I think that if we use 'Theater of War' without some kind of victory condition, we are setting ourselves up for the ultimate turtlefest. With two very effective choke points per isle, and no diplomacy, a team can afford to stay on their isle and go crazy with hoarding items.

Not that I necessarily object to this, as I have found that an aggressive start and a mid-game onset of hoarding beats turtling... and the one race we have secured has no problem hoarding, thank you very much. But I would like to make sure that all players know what they are getting into.

As for me, I am happy with ToW + victory condition, Inland + total anihilation, or even ToW + TA - I am just warning people that the last option will promote turtling. I think that Inland will be the most exciting game, especially if our gracious host picks balanced starting positions.

By the way, Panther, what do you mean 'very few games are fought to the bitter end'? My last four games have been fought to the end, and the two I'm in right now also look as if they will produce a clear winner. It is true that none of them has ended with someone killing off the last enemy, but when all players gang up on one and five turns later admit defeat, I call that a game taken to the end.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Ok. Reitterating, sorry about the delay in responding. I thought I had posted my e-mail and such, thus would be e-mailed information. Anyhoo, I'm here.

Where can I d/l the theatre of war map and i don't think starting provinces has been mentioned. 1 each? Depending on the map, 3 each might be good?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Actually, I could not agree with you more, Yvelina, you are correct in what you say, imho. One of the problems with Dominions is that turtling pays off because of the much too cheap clams.

I suppose what I meant about no games going to the bitter end is that exactly ZERO of my games I have played in WITHOUT VICTORY CONDITIONS went to the bitter end. I am including my game with you in that, for that game definitely did not go to the end. You are your boyfriend essentially won an allied victory in that one. That seems common in that the two top nations kill everyone else and declare a joint victory. This has happened twice now in my games, and it does prevent the intense micro required in the late game from becoming a bore.

In fact, had you and your boyfriend fought each other in that game, it would have taken a long time for one side to win since you both seemed closely balanced at the end. I can fully understand your reluctance to invest the time required to do exactly that. I would have done the very same thing you did in your shoes.

I also must agree with you that if all other players declare one nation the unbeatable winner, then that does count as the bitter end. Given that definition, then my first ever MP game did go to the end with Arch being declared the obvious winner after eventually fighing off everybody else. But none of the 10 games I played since then have gome this way. I am even on turn 125 in one of my games. But I think that is close to a stalemate in that the Pythium player might take another 70 turns to eliminate me because of mass ghost riders and a castle in every province. And because I can't see investing all the time required to play that game to that point, the remaining few players will probably declare Pythium the winner.

I do warn you that the Aku and Boron team will turtle and clam hoard like crazy in this game. With clams at a mere W2 requirement, it is gonna happen and happen and happen again. And then happen some more, for clams are the best thing you can mass produce for sure.

My son did point out that a W3S1 requirement to build a clam makes a lot more sense than a W4 requirement. We talked about it and I think he has it right. it helps the weaker nations like TC and Atrlantis, for those two races can still easily clam hoard but the stronger nations cannot get the mages so easily. Let us hope they do something like this in Dom 3.

I did assume that Petar got Pythium but you missed on Vanheim and will have to take whatever is left over at the end (Ulm perhaps?) Or did you get Vanheim and Petar must take a nation he likes less?

I sure would like for everybody to post frequently once the fighting starts and tell what is going on in this game, for I do really like the format here. I think it is one of Alneyan's best ideas yet, along with his King of the Hill game.

I like it so much that I was even thinking of buying a second copy of dominions just so my son and I could be a team were another game like this occur.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Lets leave the ToW map with TA. Either everyone fights to the bitter end or people will forfeit and declare a winner. I feel the games that are the most fun have no victory conditions.

With victory conditions a pure rush strat can win the game. With TA then you need a strat with a balance between rush and hoard. I personally feel that if you sit and hoard 100% that you are too vulnerable to be taken out in a single turn. In another game Boron sat and hoarded the entire time and Thufir in a single battle destroyed Boron because he lost all his hoard item carriers and all his defenders etc. I do not believe it is unbalanced because a straight hording 100% strat does leave you vulnerable if a neighbor rushes you. Boron is always lucky and seems to never be in a war with anyone so he is allowed to hoard. That is not the fault of hoarding but the fault of his neighbors being nice to him lol. I would like to see no victory conditions because I am extremely curious how everyone will play the game out in the theatre of war map.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I can't hear the *****ing about lategame and hoarding anymore .

Flames from afar target HIDDEN scouts also . So hoarding is not secure or anything only if you are underwater .

But theater of war has not a single water province so stop the whining .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Boron, it is not a matter of being afraid of the late game. People who have played me know that I can hoard with the best of them, and as I said, we secured one of the good hoarder races... and we are shooting for a second hoarder.

All I am trying to do is to make sure everyone realizes that without victory conditions we will play a hoarder's wet dream. Why?

1. Starting positions are utterly defensible.
2. The second teammember can defend the hoarder.
3. Magic paths can be combined for better hoarding.
4. Without diplomacy, teams will delay attacks.
5. An attack on someone's isle will entail extremely vulnerable supply lines.
6. The map is huge.

If everyone realizes that without victory conditions this game will be won only through hoarding, and agrees, that is fine. If the other teams would hate such a game, there is no point in starting a game that most people will abbandon.

So, I suggest everyone who is in the game votes on map, victory conditions, diplomacy, and presence/absence of castles in the chokepoints, with the host breaking the ties.

One thing is for sure - we will all be listening about a voice from the sky that tells us that the nation of Foobaria is engaging in magical manufacturing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I think that's a good idea.

Also, why don't we play on Ringworld map? It looks very interesting. Everybody will have exactly one ally neighbour and one enemy neighbour... Very symmetric...

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

True. Ringworld could be fun. While I like the Theater of War map, I am still worried about the logistics of teams on that map.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

You can download the map on the Illwinter website (on the map page). http://www.illwinter.com/dom2/maps.html

Pasha

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

To be a hoarders wet dream the map would need a water province for each nation http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif.

As it is it is more then inept for hoarding especially since you could look up the starting province numbers in the mapfile and then you would know the enemy capitols without scouting and can try a shoot out of the blue with 5 flames or so . Chances for being successful are quite high since most players leave most of their forgers in their capitol .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I agree with Boron. Also if you sit and hoard then you miss out on the central province. The rushers are going to get the middle province that has some cool bonuses to it. I don't see what all this debate is about.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Boron - Is this really true????? I did not think so. Are you 100% certain about this? Have the developers spoken on this topic? If it is, then I may be more vulnerable in one of my games that I had previously thought.

I still say that hoarding is a good strategy ONLY because clams (and fetishes, but to a lesser extent) are so woefully underpriced. If they had a proper price attached to them, there would be no discussion.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

There is no diplomacy in this one? Did I hear that right?

How is this going to be enforced?

What is the point? Doesn't it take away from an important part of the game?

Oh, and I think the map seems awfully large.. Is there any chance of playing on a smaller map?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Panther...I asked Boron the same question. He told me that him and Thufir in another game killed off each others hoarders with the flames spells and including their scouts died. So it is tested and confirmed.

CUnknown the map is a good size because we do have 12 people so its 6 teams and this map lets it easily be divided with the start locations. About diplomacy I believe it is being enforced by only the host knowing what players are playing what nation. So if nobody knows what players are on the other nations besides your teammate it is a bit harder to do diplomacy. The in game messages do work but comon that is so slow and usually too hard to organize anything at all and too much a pain to even bother.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Diplomacy (or making it harder) was requested some posts ago by Yvelina, and was something I should have brought up earlier. All I can do to enforce it is hide the nations, and regularly check in-game for in-game messages (if nobody minds banning in-game messages). What I cannot do is check emails, private messages and the like, though I am working on an increase of my powers.

Boron, Theater of War comes with preset starting points, so starting provinces will be very well known. If you leave your best mages in the capital without adequate protection, only you can be blamed for that. If we play another map, I can keep the .map file a secret, so the players will not know where the other starting positions are.

I am certainly fine with a vote. Feel free to vote on this thread or in private.
- Map: Theater of War, Inland, Ringworld have been suggested (any other?)
- Victory conditions: Yes or no here. If you would like victory conditions on only some maps (Theater), please say so.
- Diplomacy: Yes or no. I can keep nations secret and make in-game messages forbidden, but I cannot enforce anything else beyond that.
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

- Map: Theater of War
- Victory conditions: No
- Diplomacy: Doesn't matter to me
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints? Keep the forts and the special province in the middle. It adds flavor to the map.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

They are not underpriced at all .
20 turns without a dwarfen hammer , 14 with a dwarfen hammer until they reach break even point .

Add to that that they soak up valuable forge slots .
Either 50 clams per turn or equipment for 7 scs / turn .
Not an easy decision also .

Only for water nations they are really good but otherwise there is always the high risk of flames from the sky .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

- Map: Any smaller (not huge) map (Inland, Ringworld, or anything with 8-12 provinces per nation)
- Victory conditions: depends on map: the target is to determine the winner by turn 60-70 (to satisfy hoarders we can stop let's say at turn 60 and calculate the score of each alliance, counting their gold and gem income (including from gem generators) and various assets (maybe averaging over few turns). It's a bit of work, but that's just once, not every turn.
- Diplomacy: probably on, mostly because I don't like restrictions which are hard to enforce.
- In the case of Theater: do you want to keep the forts at the chokepoints? I'm for no forts (mostly because they leave the province undefended).

Essentially, I don't want to commit time to do mindless micromanagement and I'll agree on any settings that eliminate it.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

The vote will be over by Thursday late afternoon/early evening, GMT (approximatively 48 hours from now).

On a side note, if hoarding items are the problem rather than the size of the map, it should be possible to remove them from the game altogether; setting clams and fetishes to require Earth 5/Death 5 should do the trick. You would be allowed to use them here, but if you have that many gems to throw away, the game is likely already won for you.

Alternatively, a houserule banning clams/fetishes can be set, and the lurking host would inspect turns searching for equipped clams/fetishes. Woe to the player found with such items equipped. I would rather avoid a limiting figure here though, as it would be harder to check by both the players and myself.

An allowance may be needed for Bloodstones; one or two such items could be equipped for their blood bonus, or something of the like. I do not expect a ban on hoarding items to have much support, but who knows.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

- Map: Any small to medium. not TOW. Inland, Ringworld, IO, tyrnade are cool.
- Victory conditions: Yes.
- Diplomacy: On. agree with alexti. Hard to enforce and this will give an advantage to those who'll insist on hidden diplomacy.
- In the case of Theater: don't mind.

Anyhting that helps towards a fast paced game with little end game micro is good by me.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Map: Abstain

Diplomacy: I want to be able to have diplomacy. It's a valuable part of the game. (Besides, we have no way to enforce this 'gentleman's rule'. That alone makes it a bad rule.) I remember Norfleet.

Victory: Total Annialation! (however you spell it)

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

You know, I understand you are trying to get your hoardfest, but please do not insult my intelligence. Only a fool keeps her clamholders, forgers, or any mages of note in her capital. Or together, for that matter. Speaking for myself, I use black servants, not scouts, I keep four separate labs with no other mages in them, so that they appear empty, and I keep domes over all of my mages. By the time people are ready to blow a hundred fire gems per turn on artillery spells, I also have a hundred gems invested in domes, hundreds of wolves patrolling the province to elliminate assassins and soak up some of the fire.

And if you doubt this, I can give up the last turnfile of one of my last games. You will see that exact set-up: turn 80 or so, 150+ clams and fetishes, 80+ blood stones, most on black servants, in provinces that look exactly like 30 others. By the time everyone else surrendered, they had given up on using artillery spells, because only one of about 20 actually got through and killed one smith and 20 wolves. A few of the enemy mages met a fiery death, so I think I came better off, all together.

[EDIT] I attached a screenshot of the last turn. The red arrow points to my capital. The Black arrows point to the two provinces where my generator items are held... I am, of course, Vanheim.

Anyway. Our team's votes:

Maps: Inland (no VC) Most fun
ToW (80% of the central isle) Best fighting
Ringworld (no VC) Instant warfare, just add players

Diplomacy: We are willing to trust players to keep all the diplomacy (trash talk, in our case) to this thread.

Castles: We do not care - both ways are fine with us.


Oh, and Petar is to be talking for us from now on. I'm into finals week, and he's the one who enjoys arguments like this one.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Yvelina you may believe it or not i don't want to get my hoardfest . I was more argumenting just with Panther and the other anti-clamhoarders that hoarding is a winning strat and a no-brainer and so on .

After the game started you will see that Aku + me didn't plan a classic hoard approach in the game .
We just want no constricting rules but most possible freedom for all participants .

Both rules on clams and easy to achieve victory conditions are in our option unfair and constricting .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Your math is terrible. The actual break even point for a clam is 7 turns without a hammer and 5 turns with a hammer. This is because 7 pearls is worth approximately 10 water gems, imho. Pearls are vastly more useful that water gems, which is why I think this.

And converting 20 pearls back to 10 water just to make another clam is really dumb. The pearls are far better used to make items for your SCs, like resistance and luck and shrouds (if you have a decent bless effect) and skullcaps. Or for archastic record. Or used to empower towards wish if your pretender can't do it. Or building up to arcane nexus. Or any other useful things for pearls besides wasting them on converting to water.

A 5 turn payback (with hammer investment) for making a clam is just plain bad. That is why most good players make lots of pearls as they are able, whether or not they are turtling or hoarding or fighting for territory or defending their own territory. Just about every decent player does this. I know you do.

Besides, by the time someone starts targeting your scouts with lucky artillery spells, you have held your clams for such a long time that it does not hurt that much if you lose a few. I agree with Yvelina on this one, if you have 80 scouts in your capitol all with clams and no domes, then you deserve what you get.

If clams were to cost something closer to their true value, like 3WS1 as suggested by my son, then you WOULD have to consider doing something else with your water gems besides the no-brainer decision to make clams and clams and more clams. It was Norfleet who first pointed out the immense value of a cheap clam. Maybe he was cheating, but he was certainly a darn good player who understood the game even when not cheating.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

What you say is your subjective feeling . In order to make an objective comparison you have to chose a bench mark and that are water gems .
I mean a completely different situation :

If you really hoarded and the game reaches about turn 80-100 then there will be a point where you exceed 500 hoarditem carriers . Unless you are an underwater nation you can't protect them properly .

I experienced this myself in back to the fray , once Thufir gets active again on the board he will confirm it .
Though he spreaded his approximately 300-400 hoarders Edi and Odd enuf managed to give him severe trouble and kill about 50% of them by artillery spells in a few turns .

Unless you are an underwater nation there is no problem at all with clams . And before the clamhoarder reaches a critical mass of >300 clams and 3 wishcasters the clamhoarder hasn't such a big edge .

The average province is worth about 40 gold and 3 gems income .
Normally the turtling hoarder doesn't go for provinces so if you conquer instead you have e.g. 120 provinces while the hoarder has 30 provinces .
You get about 4800 gold and 360 gems from those provinces , the hoarder gets 1200 gold and 90 gems from his provinces and 300 gems from clams .
So you are of about equal power . Normally you attack the hoarder first and you should be able to do some damage to his hoarders with flames or preventive strike province capturing .

If a player choses to hoard and turtle before turn 70 he is very vulnerable and only after turn 90 he has quickly growing chances of winning .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

We could make a poll on the normal board about hoard items how ppl think about them .
I wonder how many % would say they are fine as they are and how many % would want them changed .

If i had to guess about 60% would vote for nerfing and 40% would say they are fine .

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

I've been trying out the theatre of war map and I can't seem to figure out how to move from the outlying circle of the map where you start to the main land. The map description says you need to own a capital? I own all the provinces in the circle...

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

One of your provinces has a connection into the middle.

Go into map filters and click on the box labeled neighbors. Then look at each of your provinces until you find the one that shows a connection.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Map: Ringworld, but I would not stab myself with a samurai sword if we played Theater of War.

Victory Conditions: If Ringworld, then no VC. If Theater of War, then I would vote for some sort of % of the central circle as a victory condition.

Diplomacy: No limitations.

On the issue of choke points in T.O.W., I have no opinion.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

The following nations have been picked by team 4, 5 and 6: Ulm, Jotunheim and Arcoscephale. I will be sending a mail to the last three teams about their last pick.

The following nations have been taken: Arcoscephale, Caelum, C'tis, Jotunheim, Mictlan, Pangaea, Pythium, Ulm, Vanheim.

And for the vote:
- The map: Inland and ToW are the contenders here, but Inland seems to be the preferred one. So Inland it shall be.
- Diplomacy: It will be on.
- Victory condition: Total Annihilation

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Since we are doing inland can we do very hard research so its more regular troop fighting and delay of the sc's and huge battle spells...it will make things more chaotic.

Are score graphs on or off?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

We vote for standard research.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

If we play with hard research there won't be any point in playing, i'll just lay waste to you all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Research will be standard, unless a majority of players want to increase the research setting to something else.

Scores will be handled as explained earlier in the thread (it is summarised on the first post of the thread): no scores, but vague comments about how the nations are faring.

The first post will be updated soon (adding the map and things of the like to it).

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

No discussions: Standart research.

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

How is the nation selecting going?

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

The nation picks are now over. I will be sending a mail soon asking all players to create and send their Pretenders: if you have received nothing within the hour, you should start to worry (I may have forgotten your mail, or the Internet Void has struck again).

The teams can now be revealed, as we will be playing with diplomacy on:
- Aku and Boron: Pangaea + Abysia
- Alexti and Izaqyos: Vanheim + Jotunheim
- CUnknown and YellowCactus: Mictlan + Ulm
- Dragon11 and PashaDawg: Pythium + Ermor
- GriffinOfBuerrig and TheBirthdayParty: C'tis + Marignon
- Tuidjy and Yvelina : Caelum + Arcoscephale

Re: PBEM game: Entwined Destiny
 

Can someone please point me to pretender 2.0 mod?

thanks.

edit: found it in first post.