Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Is this longbow change included in the current mod? It is hard to tell given all the posts and edits.

If it is tho I wanted to point out that while this does make the longbow more effective against units with higher protection, it actually makes it LESS effective than shortbows against units with low protection. Which is kind of odd.

Not sure if that is what you were going for? You might want to consider the suggestion made earlier to make longbows strength additive. Or just boost the damage of the longbow up to 16?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Yes, the change is in the current mod.

It was kind of a tough decision... I don't want longbows to be utterly superior to xbows in every way. But I also don't want longbows causing universally instant death upon hitting a lightly armored unit, which would be the case at damage 16. Arrows are not generally capable of killing with a single hit on a random location, no matter what fired them. I doubt a longbow arrow would do any more damage than a shortbow arrow; the main differences should be range and armor penetration. But if I make longbows armor piercing and 10 damage, they're like crossbows... just... more than twice as good.

So difficult! If armor piercing could be set as a percent, it would be easier. With this mod, shortbows do more damage up to protection 3, and longbows do more damage above protection 5. Unmodded longbows do more damage than modded longbows up to protection 9, and modded longbows do more damage above protection 11.

Maybe I could move it up to 9AP. That would shift the breakeven points to 2 versus shortbows and 8 versus original longbows.

...

OK. I moved longbows up to 9AP and raised shortbow range to 32 to match Xbow range, and dropped the prices on all Xbows. Historically, Xbows are shorter range and their users less trained than bow users, but I don't want to mess with Dominions II's balance TOO much...

The end result is that longbows (compared to shortbows, composites, and xbows) should still reign supreme in all situations, but be much better able to pierce heavy armor, and no better at killing very lightly armored enemies (assuming a hit) than a shortbow. Longbows will be much better than composite bows versus enemies with armor over 6. Furthermore, Xbows can no longer safely fire at shortbows, since the range is the same.

Anyway, thanks for your comments, and pardon my stream-of-consciousness writing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

A few balance/bug comments:

*You #cleared the Elite Longbowman, but forgot to give him back his longbow.

*Flagellents at 6 gold are a huge bonus for Marignon, I tend to mostly buy them as opposed to other infatry even at ten gold.

Also, I realize this is an infantry balance mod, but would you consider doing something about the many sorts of overpriced cavalry? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Thanks for noting the Elite Longbowman thing! I had to clear it to give it a leather hauberk, and forgot the weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for the cavalry, I'm already on it! There are like 100 of them but I got them all typed into the mod file today (names and numbers). I need to look up all the costs, though, and come up with guidelines, etc... How much do you think cavalry are worth? I never buy them, personally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I expect to increase the STR and HP to reflect the fact that 1) the horse's momentum adds power and 2) the horse absorbs some damage intended for the rider, but they'll still need to become cheaper.

I think the final mod version will be named something like "Recruitable Unit Rebalance," though I don't intend to mess with mages and priests.


For flagellants, there are a few factors I considered...

1) Why do they need a salary? They're religious loonies who give away all their money and whip themselves bloody for fun, not highly respected pampered sacred units like Valkyries, Mother Guards, and Knights of the Chalice.
2) They have no training.
3) They start with random wounds. (like Ermorian Praetorian Guard)
4) They rarely last more than 2 battles... they're as disposable as gladiators and unarmored militia.
5) There are hidden costs. In order for them to be worthwhile, you have to pay for high pretender skills and high dominion strength.
6) Holy level already prevents massive production. You can never fill a production queue completely with flagellants regardless of their cost, like you can with militia, archers, shamblers, light infantry, and so forth.
7) How does the cost compare to other units? Double base militia (3g) and just below base light infantry (7g) which are more survivable.
8) Are cheap flagellants, limited mainly by holy level, thematic? Well... I see Marignon as the sort of place overflowing with religious zealots and ex-heretics whose minds have been destroyed in the torture chambers...

Sending flagellants off to war is kind of like a release valve. You wouldn't want violent, insane, unproductive people hanging around town claiming to be "better" and "more pure" than everyone else. So there should be sort of a constant trickle of flagellants, at the rate society produces them... and setting the price at 6 should cause the player to do such a thing.

So I consider 6g reasonable from a theoretical standpoint. If it continues to seem like a massive advantage in the actual game, I'll change it...

Thank you for your feedback http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Version 5 is uploaded, and can be found on the first post of the thread. Consider this a second beta. Thanks to quantum_mechani and Ironhawk for finding bugs/issues, to Edi for supplying the Unit Database, and to everyone who downloaded and played with the last version.

New:

Most important: Finished all heavy and superheavy infantry.
Now, aside from possible bugs and imbalances, all infantry, militia, and archers are complete.

Added all cavalry in the game, with name, number, and cost, but have not changed any cavalry yet.

Fixes Man longbowman (who lacked a longbow), makes longbow slightly stronger (9 ap) and shortbow slightly longer range (32, putting it equal to xbow). Xbowmen made slightly cheaper to compensate.
Assassins get armguards, so protection goes up to 5. Slayer gets no armguards but higher att/def to put him on par with cheaper assassins.
Fixes some bugs noted in Edi's unit database.
Abysian Salamander (the animal) improved and cheapened.
Lava Warrior base encumbrance drops to 8 (maybe they can stay awake for an entire battle now...)
Neifels get new, better Neifel-sized weapons, and Neifel Giants get attack high enough to hit militia reliably.
Tien Chi Imperial units improved.
Full Scale Mail dropped from -3 defense to -2 defense.
All Ulm units with armor get armor "of Ulm" (+1 prot, +1 resource cost)
Sappers made better.
Mounted unit "strength not added" mount weapons (hoof, bite, etc) got length 1, so that when striking spiny enemies, the rider would not be poisoned. I think length 1 is all it takes, anyway.
Cu Sidhe got stronger.
Alicorn gets armor piercing.
Black Forest Zweihander became elite, and Blood Marshal (Black Forest hero) gets lesser fear.
Indy Knight Commander gets 50 leadership, not 25.
Some Caelian infantry became slightly more expensive.
Changed a few weapon stats and added a couple weapons.
Some archers get 2 strat moves, and/or better attack and defense, and/or higher precision.
All non-commander units with full helms and heavy armor get reduced precision. Commanders are untouched because you can theoretically change their helmet.

Changed myriads of other things to make them closer to perfect. But I can't remember them all However, IMO, all infantry units are now "viable" except for a few that don't carry shields, and which only silly people would build. It's hard to balance soldiers that decide to leave some of their vital equipment at home http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As before, thanks for downloading it, and please post any error / bug / mispelling / thing you feel is unbalanced / anything related to the mod in this thread, so I can help make it better. Thanks!

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

The version number given in the .dm file was 4. I adjusted it to 5 before I uploaded it to my site. FYI.

Keep up the great work!


Best regards,

Arryn

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Saber, I'm working on the 'mounted' cost from the commander end. It seems like 40g is the cost you pay for a mounted commander. That seems... rather extreme, to me. I do realize, though, that being mounted invariably adds at least one 'extra attack' (that doesn't disappear with rearming), increases AP, removes non-spell fatigue due to armor, and similar things.

Anyway, I figure that halving the cost (going from commander to infantry) might be a way of going there. That would leave 20g.

Another way of looking at it is this:

Infantry commander base cost: 10
Infantry unit base cost: 5 (half)

Add a couple of gold for the weapons of the infantry (after all, you can't re-equip them like commanders), and you get about the 7g that you use for light infantry, right?

Cavalry commander base cost: 50
Cavalry unit base cost: 25 (half)

It would seem fair. Just a suggestion...

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

I love the R'lyeh hybrid descriptions!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
You didn't make them upkeep free like you had mentioned though. Did you get them mixed up with the void gate summons?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Yeah, I can appreciate how tough of a decision this one would be. With 9AP damage longbows definitely are the supreme missle weapon. But then again, in my experience, longbowmen are the rarest indy archer type. Which fits in with the reality of longbows (they were elite archers, basically) and its good for game balance too.

Interesting side note: Why are there no sacred archer units? I just envisioned Man with sacred longbowmen and a W9 blessing.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Actually, I think the Crystal Amazons still qualify as the rarest indy archer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Considering you need to use wish to get them... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Oh, do you? I can remember (way back in the single digit versions) that I did find a Crystal Amazon province in a game or two...

Air/Astral, bowmen, Pegasus Riders, in plains, right?

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

It is possible thier disappearance happened in a patch, but I think they have been gone since dom I. Though they may be preplaced in a scenario or two.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

They are placed in a province in Tyrande, although the defenders were general LI/HI/Archers.

Re: Infantry Balance Mod
 

Thanks, Arryn; I can always count on you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But I'll try harder anyway!

Cavalry unit cost is sort of confusing. I've been thinking and thinking... but no matter how reasonable your rationale is, we end up with 25g light cavalry that NOBODY is going to buy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

However, light cavalry just use horses... you know, horsey-worseies. Whereas heavy cavalry use huge warhorses bred for strength and trained for battle... and armored! Well, I don't know if this is reasonable or not, but these are the factors I considered and their approximate costs. I made up all the numbers myself rather than analyzing Illwinter's numbers, and didn't really follow them very closely... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Also, Illwinter never really factored in the resource cost of breeding and training horses.

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
-- Cavalry Guidelines:
-- Note that the existance of guidelines does not mean they are followed.

-- Type Protection GCOST RCOST ENC MOVE

-- Light: 0-9 14 +4 4 3
-- Medium: 10-14 22 x1.5+6 4 2
-- Heavy: 15+ 30 x2+10 5 2
-- Elite: 17+ &amp; stats+ 40 x2+12 5 2

-- Other factors to consider:

-- Factor GCOST

-- Bow: +2
-- Light Lance: +2
-- Full Lance: +6
-- Mount Attacks: varies
-- Trample: +.25*(size^3)
-- Mount Survives Rider: +10 (varies)
-- Mount Joins Army: varies
-- Slower Than a Horse: -2 to 10
-- Protection Above Minimum: +0 to 2 each
-- Bonus Stats: varies

-- Other changes: all cavs get +1 str to reflect mount's momentum,
-- and +2 hp to reflect hits taken by the mount (+3 on heavy cav)
-- heavy and medium cavs get minimum 11 morale
-- light cav precision penalties reduced, for 4 reasons:
-- 1) higher seat gives better vision and better angle
-- 2) they are trained to shoot / throw from horseback
-- 3) horses will often be still when firing
-- 4) the penalty made them worthless
</pre><hr />

Anyway, thanks for your analysis!


Since longbows are quite rare, have virtually no armor, and are 30% to 100% more expensive than other archers, I guess it should be OK. As for holy archers - there are Crystal Amazon Pegasus Riders and Centaur Hierophants... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But nothing common or cheap.

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for the hybrids: They are recruitable with money, and require upkeep, though I did drop the prices of the inferior ones. I eliminated the upkeep on Void Gate Summons (Elder Thing, Vastness, Otherness, Thing of Many Eyes, etc). I don't know if they had upkeep before, but they definitely do not now.



So! I've spent about 30 hours in the last several days, smoothing over the previous changes, spotting and correcting bugs, and redoing every cavalry unit in the game. I also added some neat new weapons and armor to units that really needed them. For example: Soulless have no vital organs. They tend not to die from arrows. So I gave them "Missile Protection" (technically, a 0 prot, 0 enc, 1 def shield, and lowered their def by 1 to compensate). It should make arrows slightly less effective on Soulless, without affecting anything else. And I gave Sidhe / Tuatha full bronze equipment, based on their descriptions of "Hating iron and only using Bronze and Leather."

You can look at the attached picture to see some of the new armor and weapons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'm in the final stages of debugging (primarily, ensuring that no units are missing attacks, got their description cleared, cost too much or too little, or have the wrong unit number for their name) and plan to release the first non-beta today or tomorrow. Thanks for all your comments!

Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is out!
 

This is the first complete, non-beta release. You can grab it (and read the release notes) at the first post in the thread. You can also see a screenshot of some of the new weapons and armor that units are sporting in the post above this one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Have fun, and I hope you enjoy it!

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is out!
 

Looks very nice! Am away from home atm and cannot test, but will try to do so soon.

Naive question: Can many mods modding stuff such as this exist at once? (E.g., since I selected light cav for my Oglala mod, feedback on which I am still desperately seeking (shameless plug), and you have modded them, will that cause a conflict?)

Really Smallish Question: Would you also consider incorporating my Abysian Salamander changes to your mod by the same logic you changed the Vanheimian Fay Boar ("did anyone ever buy one before?") -- 75 gcost, sacred.

Anyhow, thanks for this mod, it looks like a lot of work, and I appreciate it -- for me, modding is really tough, and it would be abysmal without feedback.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is out!
 

What we need now is a game in which all spells beyond level 2 and all pretenders
with magic path cost over 10 are disabled. It would be the perfer way to test
this mod.

If it is not PBEM (I seem unable to stick to these) I would like to join.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I don't think so... I think the computer loads mods alphabetically, and mine is named "Cherry Recruitable Rebalance", so "Oglala Sioux" should be processed second, with your changes overriding my changes. But I might try that out later today and see.

I changed them to 55g, made their fire flare much better, and made Beast Trainers cheaper. However, it does make sense that they should be sacred - not necessarily because Abysians worship hot things (although they do), but because salamanders shouldn't get paid so much after they are trained, since they don't have a use for money http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Hmmm... I guess 75g and sacred sounds fair. I'll have to retype the description to incorporate that change.

I completely agree. Thanks for the feedback!


It would be very interesting to test this mod without powerful magic and supercombattants... it would change Dominions II into (as close as I can make it to) the low-magic medieval military conflicts in most fantasy novels, like Lord of the Rings, Magician, or A Game of Thrones. However, I'm not sure how much interest there would be, as most Dominions II players (on this forum) seem to love powerful magic. I'd be up for it, though! Of course, it would take several more hours to disable all those gods and spells... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

It's too bad you missed the Age of Men game. I designed it to be more about national armies and less about magic and SCs. It was quite fun!! And for the record I would certainly be interested if you are starting a game of that type up with your mod. Send me a PM or something if you do.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

I'd also be interested in a very low magic game, or any test of this mod for that matter!

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

It's possible for me to host games, as I keep my computer on 24-7 now. Unfortunately, I am currently using a college's slightly unreliable wireless internet access... it generally works, but not perfectly. At any rate, I'd be happy to host, and it SHOULD work fine.

So... it seems there are at least 4 (including me) people who would like to play an MP game using this mod, and everone seems to want a somewhat reduced emphasis on magic and SCs. If anyone else is lurking and wants to play a game, please post here.

In the meantime, I will make a "low magic" mod based on Zen's mod, but more extreme. Then, if a consensus wishes to use the low magic mod as well, we can use both http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

You can count me in.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Id be interested.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Me too !

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Me too, if this were to be PBEM on a fairly relaxed basis. Awaiting a new baby in the next 1-4 weeks, and that will take priority.

I tested it so far only a little, and like very very much of it a whole lot. I really liked the fact that many units are coming into their own. Now, the Indy nations are more interesting, and the AI can make better use of them. More testing to come.

Some tiny "criticism-type" remarks so far (I have detailed my remarks so far in a text-doc I have at home but forgot to bring here, sorry), and perhaps this is said too quickly, but here goes anyhow:

- Many ranged units became asymptotically better than their counterpart melee units, thinking in particular of X-Bows (especially of the Marignon flavor), which became BOTH cheaper AND better. I would have like to see them ONLY cheaper, NOT better, at least for some of the Indy troops, because I would still prefer there to be an incentive to purchase National troops above Indy ones of the same type (that is: get Indy troops if you are in a hurry or if you lack that type altogether, e.g. x-bows or archers for Abysia). I found the Heavy Archer (equally good warrior as bowman) a bit too butch -- if he is really wearing all that armor, his precision should drop.
- Marignon is now too butch for my tastes: The X-bow is now a cheap elite unit and the KotChalice is now much less expensive (why? I think he filled his niche quite well before), and the Flagellant has become almost half-price.
- I approve of making Light Cav less expensive, but dislike the fact that their precision has increased simultaneously. I read your justification in the readme, and didnt quite feel comfortable with "horses sitting still" etc. -- it really isnt easy to fire a bow from a horse. Also, it makes my Oglala mod outdated! ;-)
- Damn, I had about 4 other small points, but I will have to get back to you with those.
More testing to follow!
Thanks for your mod!

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

yo saber cherry - i'd like to play if you've got a spot!

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Nice mod I'm pretty impressed.

From my inital try it seems that I recruited a lot more cav than usual ( a good thing ).

The Matchaka archer is comical. You can build an aweful lot of those. They do seem pretty efficient. Although you need a growth dominion to feed them.

The only thing I can compain about is that it destroys a lot of my preconceived notions about what is useless and what is good. T'ien Ch'i with buff troops? Jotuns that don't run from combat? Up is down. I actually want to play man? What the heck is that all about?

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Checked out the mod in a quick test game last night, saber. Looks pretty good. You definitely did a good job with pricing becuase there were some units that I clicked on and I thought to myself "you know it might finally be a good deal!" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

As for hosting, I would be happy to host this game on Sheap's machine. Which is very stable and has a rock solid connection. Just let me know what mods and maps I will need to download and what all the game parameters are.

Also, maybe you should post a thread over in the Multiplayer Forum and link it here so that people can officially sign up for the game?

Low Magic Mod
 

Saber, dunno if you were thinking this, but if you are going through and radically altering magic for a low-magic type game, I think it would be great if we could see more use of the low-end summons (wyverns, drakes, animals, etc)?

Re: Low Magic Mod
 

A short update from my end.

I've just gotten back from a trip. I'll be making my way through the rest of the commanders (probably just national for now) and posting the info on my own thread. It might be interesting to see what would happen if you played a game with both Cherry's unit mod and my (hopefully forthcoming) commander mod.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Thanks a lot! Actually I found out last night my harddrive is (probably) dying, so I'm rush-ordering a new one, but in the meantime I'm trying to avoid HDD accesses http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So if you can host it (on this mysterious "Sheap" of which you speak) that would be perfect!

I'll start a thread in the MP section. As for mods and maps... hard to say about a map until I know how many are interested, but DEFINITELY under 200 provinces. Modwise... I spent many hours putting spells (and summoned units) into mod-format, and only finished conjuration. The other schools will go much faster (I think) but I doubt I'll have a complete "Low-Magic" mod in the next 2-3 days, and no current mod accomplishes this effect. However, I can at least adjust the best and worst spells to make a "Lower Magic" mod where blade winds, falling fires, artillery, army invincibility, and mega summons are nerfed.

I'll start an MP thread now.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Yeah, modding all these spells is going to be quite the undertaking! Trying to think of an easier way to do it but I am coming up blank.

Don't forget to link back here once you have an MP thread so people can find it.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Ok http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Please pick a nation and sign up here!

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

I'll look forward to seeing the complete list when you find it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Ok, I'll look into that. I did reduce the Xbow's range by 10%, by the way. You're right, though, archer units generally did get better overall... especially lightly armored ones, which (mostly) now have 2 strat moves so you can actually move them with a mobile army. I'll reevaluate the archer cost guidelines.

Hmmmm. I like the cheap flagellant for thematic reasons, but I'll reexamine the other two. What do you think is a fair cost for the Xbow and KotC?

I can always give them a +2 precision "horsebow" and drop their base precision to 8 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Seriously, though, I need to find some way to make them worth buying... at precision 8, they're almost useless, but cost more than 2 (superior) foot archers. Any suggestions?

Not at all, they still lack the magic resistance and... um... aesthetic appeal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif No to mention poisoned arrows and stealth! I can also change the descriptions to something like, "Please note that this unit's stats do not reflect how clearly inferior it is to Oglala cavalry" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


No, thank you for the feedback. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Yay, pure praise http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif As for Machaka Archers, every one you buy takes money away from Black Hunters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif With a Fire Arrows spell, they might become super-strong. But Machaka (IMO) is a very weak nation aside from their Black Hunters and Bane Spiders, so maybe that's OK...

Sounds good to me! I'm looking forward to the Commander mod, though I will say that Recruitable Rebalance does affect some commanders: generally commander versions of normal troops, like Paladins, Niefel Jarls, Black Lords, Lord Guardians, Prince Generals, and all mounted commanders. Usually it just changes their stats or equipment (Tien Chi imperial consort gets a "slap" weapon). Very few prices were changed, and the only magic path change was the Prince General, who got Holy-2. So with minor exceptions, the mods should be fully compatible.

That said, I'm going to leave the forums and try to finish the magic / low magic mod.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

Cool. Most of those guys would just get cheaper, on my end.

I don't plan, at this time, to do anything but shift costs around.

Re: Recruitable Rebalance Version 6, non-beta, is
 

OK, some more:

I like the strat-2 move of most bowmen, fine. I would prefer them to maintain their 10-precision, however, for their cheaper price.

So I have this changed in my mod of your mod:

Heavy Archer Prec 10
Heavy Xbow prec 10
Indy Longbowmen: prec 10

Mari Xbow: prec 10 (Context of Cheaper Flagellants, cheaper units of your mod)
Flagellants: GCost 7 (still dirt cheap IMO, thats the upkeep of a modded Militiaman too!)
Knight of the Chalice: Stays at 90. Did you feel he has no niche at 90?

Lobos Gcost 4 (too good at 3) (Cherry, do you play Ryleh? Lobos are hands down the BEST recruitable fodder in the game, I loved them at 5 gold; you cant compare them to Militia, which rout -- these guys will sit there and take a beating, and I think 4 gold is a fine price to pay for the difficult task of lobotomizing those poor froggies.)

Warlock Apprecs: GREAT change with the douse, but nix fear, prec stays at 8 (for no increased cost) (who cares, they cast prec100 spells anyhow)

Riderless Spiders given smallish gold cost (30 hunter spider, 10) -- you have to pay for food, heheh -- but seriously, no upkeep is too good for these units

Machaka Archer 11 prec for 6 gold? (I dont know about this yet, havent had time to test. I think it may be too good, unsure.)

Vaetti cold resistance: Fine. Why not Nornae and Seithkonae 25 CR too!?

Here's a question, since you were so thoughtful to change all those descriptions: The Salamander still reads something like "When injured, can erupt in flames??" -- but it never does. Would it be possible to mod the unit so that OnDeath: small area fire?

Cu Sidhe: No supply bonus. (Do you eat your dogs?)
D. Sidhe: No reduced price. Why make them even cheaper?

All (Light) Cavalry: Kept the drastically reduced price, but maintained the low horsey precision. No, we will have to invest in Wind Guide or Aim or something.

Am wary about giving all those cavs higher morale, too. It is not the rider, but the horse which is hard to control.

OK that is all I had the time for so far, really must work, but will try to do this more systematically soon.

Thanks for all your work -- great mod!

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete!
 

I love the idea of this mod. Go Saber Cherry!

Some comments:

1. Hunterspiders that lost their riders were already upkeep free

2. AP Longbows is overkill, IMHO. Perhaps give them a reduced chance to be stopped by shields, instead?

BF has to endure much to get (AP) rangers. Which leads to:

3. Rangers were plenty good already. Fear them buffed.


Rabe the Generally Enthused

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete!
 

Great mod! Really addressed some outstanding issues. I do have some short thoughts on the mod however;

Cavalry is perhaps a bit too cheap. There is a substantial difference between 10 armor and 20 armor; its not just double in effectiveness, its like 4-5x. So when you make, say, Black Knights cheaper AND stronger, they become pretty much the buffest national units in the game. Which may or may not be a bad thing, balance is not a zero sum game and Ulm pays for its Knights by being weak in many other areas, but i gather the Cavalry mod was added in at the last minute and didn't go through as rigerous a testing procedure.

I like the Firbolg Rule of Thumb; is this recruitable unit better than a 10 gem, 5-Path Firbolg? If it is, and its only costing me 50 gold, you might need to think about adjusting something here or there.

Short Bow archers seem useless now compared to xbows because everything has fairly decent armor. I think, imo, a bit too much armor was added to the game...at least with indie troops.

Some random thoughts and obserations:

Prince General has not been improved. Still 10/10 hitpoints.

Lowbowmen have 10 precision instead of 12? That should be changed back. I'm not really certain i like the Change; a weaker, faster firing crossbow...

I like the Change to Imperial Tien Chi troops.

Could you buff Black Forest Ulm's Illuminated One's somehow? Give them the assassinate abiliy, or a slight chance of causing bad luck in the province they occupy. They aren't bad, but BF Ulm is a pretty weak theme that relies almost 100% on a buffed VQ. Trying to play them WITHOUT a combat VQ is a very difficult exercise with their limited magic skills and poor morale troops. The Illuminated Ones are well rounded but rather inefficient per cost; and with death, BF Ulm has a hard time with upkeep, so a 160 gold non sacred caster is more expensive in the long run he looks at first. I see the I.O.s as a kind of traveling old man, with train of servents and hooded girls behind him, journeying to dine at the tables of foreign kings and dignitaries; practising unholy rights at night in his room when no one is looking, throwing poisonous converational barbs at state dinners, subtly manipulating the crowd, stirring up strife wherever he goes, and sometimes just for kicks dominating some poor serf to go burn his own house down, or kill some noble he disliked.

So i'm fond of them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif but would like them to a be a bit more powerful than they are now.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete!
 

BF Ulm? Mass Ranger annihilation works well, so I hear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Illuminated Ones, as written, are rather disappointing. Granted, they ARE spies, and they should pay for it, but it could work out better. For me, changing Illuminated Ones/Members of the Second Tier from Astral Primary to Blood Primary would be a useful thing to do.

Illuminated One: B
Member of the Second Tier: SBB

Anyway, just a thought.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete!
 

I have to second that. The change would be pretty thematic for BF and would make it into a powerhouse.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

I don't think BF Ulm needs any kind of boost (I would put them in the top ten nations/themes), but a thematic change might be fun. Such as giving the member of the second tier the assassin ability and raising his price.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

My main issues with BF Ulm, from a 'fun' standpoint, are:

1. Bloodhunting Micromanagement (no fun)
2. Pretender 'must' be able to cast Sanguine Heritage
3. Illuminated Ones are pointless (Fortunetellers do everything they do and more)
4. Scales are bad (Death and Misfortune are things you don't want with a Blood nation)
5. Rather random Bloodhunters (I'm not paying 160g for a 1-blood hunter)

As an aside, Zen's mod making the Fountain produce Blood Slaves every turn is REALLY GOOD for BF Ulm.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

The Illuminated ones are not pointless. They can be used as spies when needed, and are not capital only. Yes, it is a good idea to have 3B3D on your pretender when playing BF, much like taking an non recuperating/immoral pretender with Arco is a good idea. Blood micro is a problem with all blood nations (and nations in general in the late game). The scales and expensive hunters just mean it needs to be played in a different way than most blood nations

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

BF Ulm is weak: No elemental magic, a national spell that cant even be cast by national mages, starting death gem income but no death mages, no good artilery mages, no good ritual mages, pathetic blood hunters, etc. The list goes on and on. However, it is very fun to play, which, by my standards, makes it better than Pythium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

Hmm sounds like you are changing your tune from earlier:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...art=1&amp;vc=1

Perhaps you are simply conservative and reactionary to all changes and thus make unsubstantiated claims?

Ulm in general is pretty cruddy. BF is better ( maybe ) than base Ulm since it's a blood nation and blood nations rule however it's the worst of all of the blood nations. It hard to blood start your blood economy with BF since your recruitable blood hunters are the worst of all of the blood nations.

The change to SBB and B would be really good for BF and maybe *really* make them one of the top 10.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

Misfortune doesn't impact BF Ulm very much once you have enough fortune tellers.

Well, the difference in cost between these and warlock apprentices is about 5 blood slaves. It's in the very early game where their weakness is most noticeable.

One major weakness is that while vampire counts can make nice thugs, BF ulm doesn't have the low-level elemental mages (especially earth) that are needed for this to work. If you gave sanguine heritage to default or IF Ulm, you'd have quite a monster on your hands in very short notice.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

I was not counting themes in that list, so I was rating Ulm as an average of it's themes. And I would appreciate it if we can keep the discussion civil.

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

I don't agree with comments that cavalry are too cheap now. With cherry's mod I might actually consider building light or medium cav instead of ultraHeavy cav-or-nothing.

And as for suggestions to remove the precision bonus that was given to light cav: I see why people want that, from a realistic standpoint. But light cav needs to be good at *something* and they are poor melee units, so they have just got to be able to shoot.

Really I think the issue with Light Cav is that the dom2 tactical system doesnt support thier use. They seem designed for the Fire and Flee tactic but as we all know that breaks up your squads just like a rout, making it useless. If there was a legitimte Fire and Retreat tactic or possibly a Skirmish option (go and meleee for a few rounds, maybe hope to kill a leader or something? and then retreat) then light cav would suddenly spring into usefulness.

You know... just musing about light cav again... maybe we should just take away the bows all together since there arent any tactical options in dom2 to make use of it. What if, instead, we were to give them like +1 defence and a set of javelins. Kind of like REALLY watered-down Van. That way they could rush in fast, get off a couple of quality shots, and not get totally massacared by the counterattack?

Re: Recruitable Unit Rebalance Officially Complete
 

... Which is why i wanted them to cause a slight amount of bad luck in the province they are in. The game doesn't really have the kind of robust "cloak and dagger" mechanics that the Illuminated One is supposed to effect upon the hapless empires around them.

Strictly speaking, BF Ulm is average; its weak if played as a 'standard' nation, just picking any old pretender, but decent as a vehicle for the VQ. I don't doubt that for some, that is enough. For myself, Death/Blood economies suck and i hate having only about 2 pretenders to realistically choose from. And the Illuminated One is priced correctly for his abilities, which is fair enough. But i'd rather see a more expensive, more capable I.O. that i could do something more useful with than cause unrest or cast the occasional scry, or have those abilities be more focused and complementary to BF Ulm.