Re: Timing
 

Those are some pretty nice maps. I'm fine with using these random ones. My suggestions are:

Map S23 : If we have no water nations (or two water nations). Placing the team capitals more or less vertically on the right and left sides will provide a VERY wide front in the middle, which is great!

Map S25 : If we have one water nation. In that case we could place the capitals horizontally and also have a good front.

Re: Timing
 

If your going for diplomacy and fairness I would recommend a map that wraps. Inland is nice.
-Yc

Nation Selection
 

I'd like to play Vanhiem. Not sure what theme yet...

Re: Nation Selection
 

S23 is good

that is current leader righ tnow

Re: Timing
 

can't DL any of the attachments

Re: Timing
 

issues with s23:


terrain is pretty grouped.


farmlands in one area, forest in another, mountains in another


so s23 dropping in the ranks


s28 has the distribution of land types we wants but has really only point of connection between the land masses. So that choke point would be battle central. Which is semi lame as no real strategy involved.

Re: Timing
 

s27 http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion...odayMapS27.htm


is looking pretty good.


the farmlands in the NW are little clumped but there are enough of them elsewhere to make it semi nice


s24 http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion...odayMapS24.htm

also looks nice.

a little less interesting terrain. but still decent distro of land types



both of these are top choices

Re: Timing
 

I vote for S24.

I choose TienChi.

Re: Timing
 

Well, we also had decided on TC, but we are willing to go arco if you want it too.

So we want van, ulm, and arco and you want jotun, tc and who?

Also I can make the perfect map is 20 seconds with the generator.

What is the problem with using a truly random no water map?

Do we want water, is that the problem?

Rabe

Re: Timing
 

Ok, "which map" is still an issue.

I uploaded my 2 maps, so you can find them at
http://www.schulterdrachen.de/files/...ofchandrea.zip
http://www.schulterdrachen.de/files/...arganos_v2.zip

Then msew and me agree we could use some of Gandalfs random maps with 85 prov.
http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion...odayMapS27.htm
http://www.dom2minions.com/~dominion...odayMapS24.htm

Re: Timing
 

you guys do know that S23 on the 4th is not S23 on the 5th. The maps change daily so linking directly to them is not a good idea. Snag the map and snag the image so you can post it here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Or let me know and I can rename it so it stays when the re-randomize scripts run

Re: Timing
 

Okie We are using s24

http://www.msew.org/~msew/dom2/S24.zip


Please DL from this url so we are all using the same map.


Gandalf: You can run your scripts or what not. We have the map saved off.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Hi,

i would like to pick jotunheim and can anyone tell me in which game i am?

Griffin

Re: Team Game Starting
 

yes this game

SUNDAY 2005-03-06
11 am PST be in irc

irc.GameSurge.net

channel #dominions

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I meant in which team :p.

Just mail me the logs of the irc to dzbabi[att]web.de

So it would be fine if my team contacts me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


or give me a summary there, i have no time today.^^

Re: Team Game Starting
 

START TIME

2005-03-06 11:00am Pacific Standard Time (PST)

Which works out to 2pm for east coast US and 8pm for Arralen (who is +1 GMT I believe?)


Overview

A team game will be starting once there are enough players.
The game will be teams vs teams.

Either 2v2 or 2v2v2 or 3v3 depending who wants to play.


Issues Still To Resolved
The following issues need to be resolved before this game may commence.

3) Port on game host machine

5) Which nations everyone is playing



House Rules
0) No Life Drain Weapons
1) No merc usage until turn 8
2) No bane venom charm

*others to be determined


Game Server
IP: benatar.snurgle.org
port: xxxx

Game Settings
Indys: 8
Research: Hard (difficult)
Site Freq: 70
Hall Of Fame: 15
Graphs: On
Victory: Standard
Map: s24 http://www.msew.org/~msew/dom2/S24.zip
Timing: 24H QuickHost


Mods (all of the latest and greatest at the time of the game start)
GameVersion: 2.15
Items: N/A
Nations: N/A
Sidhe War Godess not in the game due to heavy protests
PretenderGods: 2.0 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptp2.zip
Scales: 1.2 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/conceptscale12.zip
Spells: 1.8 http://www.techno-mage.com/~zen/concepts18.zip

Banned Nations:
0) no pop-killing dominion. (e.g. Ermor, Pan CW ) Death-3 is fine rationale: ruins the war mechanics. Why attack them when there is no gain. Neat idea. Bad for the game unless everyone is playing that type of nation.

1) Caelum. Rationale: Overpowered. Why be anything else?



Player List With Associated Team And Nation


ironhawk (Vanheim?)
msew (Ulm?)
rabelais (Arco?)

VS

Arralen (T'ien Ch'i)
GriffinOfBuerrig (Jotunheim?)
quantum_mechanic (Man?)

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Are we allowed to create a "Vanheim War Goddess" mod to optimize pretender cost for the Vans/Valks as you have for the sidhe ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Say 2F 1W 1E ? (we'll give up stealth, awe and glamour for the extra fire boost)

*duck*

Rabe the Troublemaker

Re: Team Game Starting
 

*trowing a old fish at rabelais*

Re: Team Game Starting
 

okie truper has taken griffon's place.

the first post of the thread has updated info on teams and such

Re: Team Game Starting
 

kk game is on 24h quick host


we are on turn 18.


we played til turn 9 and abysia had not taken heat 2 so his nation was pretty much worthless.

We restarted. Did 10 turns in 50 minutes. Good stuff there!



So far:


Massive battles bettween:

Vans and Man first blood to man. MASSIVE destruction by vans

Vans and Abysia Mega battle

Arco and Man Battle!


Vans are fighting two front war with Man and Abysia

Arco is fighting Man.



No intel on TC

Ulm was abaondoned by the Vans and left to fend for himself.


And that is how things stand at turn 18!!!

Re: Team Game Starting
 

If you are the last one out you must double turn. So complete your turn. The turn generates you immediately do another turn.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Also:

Please save any interesting battles and such that you have.

Both arco and vans have saved off the major battles they have had so far.

It is nice to be able to go back and look at the world and other people's nations and combat set ups after the game is over.

So please save them off.

To save them off: Just copy the game folder: GameOfThrees_v2

and name it like: GameOfThrees_v2_turn_#_nation (e.g. GameOfThrees_v2_turn_15_ulm)

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Wow! I thought this game was going to have more buildup, but instead its just been all-out warfare from turn 9-10 on. My apologies for not double-turning last night. I was just too spent to do another turn. Probably I will be last out when I get home from work and I will double-turn then.

As to Ulm crying about being "abaondoned by the Vans" all I have to say is: best laid plans of mice & men, etc, etc. Stop *****ing cause I am the only thing standing b/w Man/Abysia and you.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I retort: self preservation

if it were not for that my lands would have been burnt to the ground by the invaders!

Re: Team Game Starting
 

okie seems team B is conceding.

At least that is what I got from the IRC conversation and that no one has done their turns. or what not.


So are we up for another team game?

Same rules?

The map this time will be 100-110 provinces. That will stop the cramped capital placement and will stop massive fighting from turn 9 onwards.

Conflicts over expansion provinces should occur around turn 15 or so.

With a bigger map that will occur. Further when that occurs and one side wins, they are not just a hop skip and a jump away from the opposition's capital.


In short: 80 provinces is too small for 6 people in a team game setting.


~msew

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I'm interested playing on Parganos v2 (still), but only if teams aren't pre-made. I hate being pressed to use the kitten/feeder strategy.

Maybe my modified Chandrea Map (with or without the Steel Ovens) would be even better: It's wraparound and has lots of "ferry connections" between the islands, so hiding a week "feeder" nation behind a strong one will not work ...

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Your end goal seems to be a team game without team-integrated nation designs, right? If that is the case then you should just request that as a house rule. Cause you can follow an integrated strategy even without knowing your teammates or map in advance, its just more risky to do so.

Make a house rule that is like... honestly I just dont even know how to phrase it. Cause it is such a grey area. If I play a nation and choose to take no earth magic whatsoever in the hopes that one of my allies will have it and be able to feed me earth items, is that a feeder strategy? What level of limitations are you wanting to place on team interaction?

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I think I would draw the line at regular gold shipments. Disaster relief or specific one time gifts are one thing, but regular gold transfer as part of a wider strategy should be outlawed (not sure on the wording myself).

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Yeah, its *very* hard to phrase. Because I think its just a fact of life that allies will help each other. Be it with gold, gems, items, etc. That is the purpose of the alliance. I mean, if I was playing in a team game and one of my allies was in very intense combat I would certainly funnel them as much gold/gems/items as I could budget. Cause if they die then the chance of my team losing goes way up.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I think the high level goal that people want is for people to not make a team where there is really only one nation "fighting" and the other two nations are feeding that "fighter" nation.


So these are what people are saying:

a) no alchemist pretender
b) play on a wrapping map
c) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting an influx of cash from others
d) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting an influx of items from others
e) no expressly making a nation that is hopeless without getting massive protection from other nations (i.e. the Ulm BF that never made a single army unit and only did blood research)



Looking at the above points it really seams like: b is the only thing needed.

If you can't easily protect your "feeder" nations then they are going to get worked. In the first team game: EVERY round we were alchemizing most every gem we had to fund the vanheim war effort. We were able to do that because neither of the "feeder" nations were in danger of being attacked.

I was playing Ulm BF. My turns took maybe 1-2 minutes. I did: Alchemize for cash, buy a blood mage, set him to research, send cash to vans and/or arco now and again. Once I started getting my blood hunting up and running, I added: "move slaves to a lab" to that list.



As for the notion of utterly random teams and utterly random nations, making complimentary nation designs seems a pretty core aspect of the team game. So the purely random is flawed.

Just like in a "normal" dom2 game you see the list of players playing and you say: Oh okie there are 3 earth nations. I am not taking earth on my pretender because I should be able to trade for a hammer and other earth items.

Not taking earth on your pretender in a team game because you know your team mate has E3 already seems pretty much the same.




I think one of the CORE issues to discuss is: Should you be able to have one of your team mate be the item whore?

Ulm BF can NOT make items with any effeciency while TC is an item making machine. Why would I spend any research points in construction when I know my team mate is going to be spending?



I guess with all that said: I don't really understand where the desire to not have feeding nations exist comes from. What I think people REALLY want is: lack of untouchable feeding nations.

Who cares if Team A chooses to have a feeding nation. If that nation's only job is to feed and is militarily weak then ATTACK it and destroy it.


A wrappable map where there is no "one battle front" forces every nation to be able to defend themselves in some way. And removes the untouchable feeder nations.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

The desire to not have feeding nations comes from the idea that playing one isn't much fun. How much fun were you having buying a mage and sending gold to Vanheim? And yet there's no denying that it was an excellent strategy under the conditions.

I don't know if having a wrap-around map is a sufficient preventative measure, especially if it were larger than the one we were using. You tell me. If we used a wrap around map, would your team dare to use a similar strategy?

Re: Team Game Starting
 

I'd agree with that assessment. I like too how it does not stop "feeding" which we have been having such trouble defining - because, as you, I feel that it is to a certain extent inherit in any team activity - but rather just makes it so that all nations need to stand on thier own due to the game settings, not a house rule.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Chandrea Map is only nominally bigger:
Lots of it's 100 provinces are small and rather worthless. Furthermore, there are lots of "ferry links" between the island, connecting just the most valuable provinces.

I have tested it in SP and found it very difficult to defend an area bigger than one of the small island due ti the wraparound effects of the North-West / Southeast streched-out "continent": Plenty few possiblities for a pure "feeder" nation to hide ..

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Is 100 provinces enough? We just played on 80 and there was conflict from turn 9 on. If we move to 100 provinces that is only 4 more provinces per empire. By my guess that will only delay conflict by 2-3 more turns.

I guess the best question to ask would be: when do we want/expect war to break out?

Re: Team Game Starting
 

14 land provinces per player should be enough. Obviously, if someone really wants tio go for another player early, there are few things to stop him. Maybe up the indies to 9.

Re: Team Game Starting
 

Probably as much fun as I would have if I was playing the vans.

It is a TEAM game. The TEAM winning is that matters.

My nation (Ulm BF) was SLOW starter and end game ungodly powerful (given the game settings).

I am more than willing to spend time setting up blood economy and letting my allies take out the indies and shelter me from attacks.



Also I guess people's definition of "feeder nation" is a bit flawed.

A feeder nation would be one who's ONLY job was to feed other nations and have no purpose in the game except that.

For our strategy it was:


Vans: does no research, just makes troops
Ulm BF: only does blood research and alcheminizes
Arco: item construction, site searching spells, global spells, remote attack spells


Vans: early strong, middle semi strong, end weak
Ulm BF: early weak, middle semi strong, end ungodly
Arco: early medium weak, middle semi strong, end strong




Let's play again and you can see what strategy we will employ!


If the Ulm BF can be protected (either by his allies or by him not buying a blood mage every round), he is going to be a force to deal with.

Allied Game?
 

I think that a wraparound map would be sufficient to deter people from picking nations which were too weak to stand on thier own in the early parts of the game.

Also, I was thinking that we should call this an Allied game instead of a Team game? I know it's just semantics, but I think it would do something to address the differing viewpoints. Like people seem to be looking to play a game where all nations are independent and so could stand on thier own, but choose to work together. As opposed to the three nations being a single entity.

Anyway, whats the status on this one? Do we want to shoot for next weekend?

Re: Allied Game?
 

yeah

Re: Allied Game?
 

Well, if Saber Cherry's mod game gets gong, I may not have time to play in another team game. From my point of view, having that game start as a blitz would be the ideal situation.

Re: Allied Game?
 

Yeah, I would put Saber's game as my first priority as well. His mod sounds really cool. Check it out at:

Saber Cherry's Unit Rebalance Mod