Re: First data: Abysia
 

If you take a look at the Arch Theurg, note that:
H4 = 150gp
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = 10gp
----------
= 380gp

Thus he has likely paid for H4, and he has 2 more points of basic encumbrance than the Theurg. He has received, apparently, a discount for his random book and doesn't have to pay for his body. Removing H4 cost:
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = ?20gp?
----------
= 240gp
* 1.5
----------
= 360gp

Assuming his body cost ~13gp, we get 380gp, so he could have paid for sacredness instead, but not both. Communion in combat is not the only factor, either, as Arch Theurgs can be very powerful ritual casters. I'm not fond of outside-the-norm unit comparisons (they tend to be ludicrously exaggerated), but, I could have a unit with Enc 50 with paths of 3F3E3~? ( ~? = Linked full random) who would be extraordinarily useful in ritual, but almost useless in combat. How much does he cost?

Re: First data: Abysia
 

That is my contention.

Actually, Illwinter's site says that it is a 50% increase for units. It does not state, one way or the other, what it is for commanders.

Yes, this is perfectly accurate. The Theurg should cost, without any extra cost for being Sacred, 200g, by Illwinter's standards. Such things as this prompted my analysis. Using my methods, the Theurg comes out to about 180g (basically, his 'frame' is worth quite a bit less than 30g).

Arch Theurg, or Theurg? If you're referring to Theurg... yeah, he's HHH and Sacred for free.

Re: First data: Abysia
 

Actually, Saber, it's not marked. I deliberately went in and modded BE Ermor's Thaumaturgs Holy... and it doesn't show up. I thought I had checked Upkeep changes, and saw that yes, indeed, they are Holy, but I may have mistaken that.

I do know one of two things, though:

1) Unholy priests cannot be Sacred.
2) Unholy priests may be Sacred, but it is never marked.

Can anyone think of a reason why Commanders can't be Unholy?

Re: First data: Abysia
 

Perfectly true. OTOH, there are commanders (like the Pan, especially in New Era) who get gimped beyond reason for no apparent reason.

The Monk actually has a negative 'stat cost'. By my rubric, it should cost 45g. 10g for Infantry Commander (it can build fortresses and equip things), 10g for being Stealthy, 20g for Holy-2, 10g for Leadership 25 (I think; I'm going from memory), and about -5 for stats.

The base priest, OTOH, does cost only 30g (the difference between the Priest and the Monk is Leadership 25 instead of 10, and Stealthy).

Re: First data: Abysia
 

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this and STRONGLY. Theurgs have no business being that cheap. They accomplish plenty for Pythium. They research quite decently well, especially considering they are sacred. Compare them to Mictlan, who has to pay at least 80g more for the same number of paths. The only nations where the Theurg wouldn't be a good researcher are ones that have even BETTER researchers (Man, Caelum, and GE Arco spring to mind).

They are natural communion makers. Unlike the Theurg Communicant (whose only purpose is to 'take it for the team'), the Theurgs can actually do stuff while in a Communion. I've heard people say that their Communion Slaves 'just stand around', but that has never been my experience.

Yes, they have rather high Encumbrance. However, I don't think it's because of their 'communion abilities'. I believe it's due to the fact that they wear heavy robes, which isn't modeled on armor because they didn't want it to be removable. I can point out several other nations that have high-encumbrance mages (Abysia's Anathemants come to mind) but don't have the Communion ability that Pythium does.

Re: First data: Abysia
 

Well, you've undervalued the ?. Assuming a full-random pick (which I think is safe in this case), you have to calculate the cost of a 4/2/1 split, a 3/3/1 split, a 3/2/2 split, and a 3/2/1/1 split, weigh them according to the probability of attaining such a split (0.125 each for the first three, 0.625 for the last), and then add to find out how much that '?' is worth.

At a guess, probably between 25-30g.

Well, see, that depends on whether he's with Pythium or Pangaea. If the former, 100g. If the latter, 500g and capital-only. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

More Data!
 

Just as an aside on the whole 'sacred unholy' thing, I noted that Desert Tombs C'tis have them, but those are summoned, not recruited. Also, by screenshot, the Keeper of the Tombs are Holy-2 but not Sacred.

Anyway, I'm through Caelum, and here's the new 'special' values:

Fly: 20
Trample: 10
Research: 10/pt.
Sceptic: 50 (includes Stealthy(0))
Healing: 20

Again, this is in Name/Current Value/Calculated Value format.

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,36 (does this have animal awe?)
Commander of C'tis,40,38
Lizard Lord,60,48
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,38
Sauromancer,180,219
Shaman,110,103
Lizard King,280,217
Empoisoner,110,117

Desert Tombs C'tis:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,103

Miasma C'tis:

Marshmaster,220,211.75

Arcoscephale:

Scout,20,20
Mounted Commander,60,60 (this tells me I'm on to something about the 'mounted' thing)
Hoplite Commander,40,33
Hypaspist Commander,45,35
Strategos,65,45
Priestess,110,107
Mystic,180,166.875
Astrologer,180,187

Arcoscephale, Golden Era:

Myrmidon Champion,35,34
Chariot Commander,70,76
Wind Lord,175,118
Engineer,60,65
Icarid Champion,50,51.5
Philosopher,50,52
Sceptic,50,54

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,47
Storm General,35,59
Seraph,100,154
High Seraph,175,303.5
Seraphine,90,108

Caelum,Return of the Raptors:

Seraph,140,154
Harab Seraph,90,100
Harab Elder,270,277

(Yes, Caelum is under-priced just about across the board.)

Working on more... don't know exactly when I'll have it all up.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I am finished with the national commanders. I will be posting the actual and calculated costs shortly. I am currently going back and inputting all the data into Excel, to double-check my work (I was doing it by hand before). Just a couple of comments for now.

Base Pan is (surprisingly) costed exactly right.
Centaurs are not considered 'mounted'.
My rubric pegs the cost of the Vanheim leaders.

Once I post, I would greatly appreciate people's input as to the various costs associated with the various abilities. As it is right now (in Excel), I will be able to rapidly change the values (and thus the totals), as a way of trying to fine-tune this.

Also, if any modders want to see how their commanders do under my rubric, please LMK (the raw data on the commanders would also be nice).

Finally, isn't there a mod that gives you access to every unit in the game? If there is, please LMK so that I can do the same for the independent commanders that I did for the national ones.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

There is a map that gives you all units, but you wouldn't see their current gold cost from there. Edi has made excel spreadsheets that contain that information, they are on Arryn's site at http://www.dominions-2.org/

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I used to have those. Are they accurate? (Not throwing stones... it's one thing to see the game info in front of me; it's quite another to work through a spreadsheet.)

In other news, here's the 'mass printing' of the calculated vs. 'real' costs of the national commanders (sub Oceania and Abysia, for the moment). I will edit this post with their information when I work up just a bit more sticktoitiveness. BTW, capital-only commanders gain a 10% reduction in price, after all calculations; Commander prices are rounded to the nearest multiple of 5; and it will be in the format of Commander Name,Real Cost, Calculated Cost.

Atlantis:

Atlantian Scout,20,30
Shambler Chief,50,50
Consort,80,90
Coral Queen,230,240
King of the Deep,290,290
Initiate of the Deep,60,45
Deep Seer,180,210

Pythium:

Scout,20,20
Assassin,60,60
Centurion,30,25
Emerald Lord,80,50
Serpent Lord,130,75
Theurg Communicant,50,40
Battle Deacon,90,45
Theurg Acolyte,90,65
Theurg,150,190
Arch Theurg,380,375
Hydra Tamer,55,40

Pythium - Serpent Cult:

Serpent Lord,130,85
Serpent Acolyte,80,65
Serpent Priest,190,210

Man:

Forester,25,30
Castellan,30,30
Monk,30,45
Bard,75,80
Lord Warden,130,70
Daughter of Avalon,80,105
Mother of Avalon,130,140
Crone of Avalon,230,255

Man - Last of the Tuatha:

Sidhe Champion,140,125
Sidhe Lord,280,250
Tuatha,390,385

Ulm:

Spy,30,30
Commander of Ulm,30,30
Black Lord,130,85
Master Smith,140,150
Siege Engineer,50,30
Priest,50,30
Lord Guardian,80,45

Ulm-Iron Faith:

Black Acolyte,40,30
Black Priest,140,140

Ulm-Black Forest:

Commander of Ulm,40,20
Ranger Captain,45,35
Illuminated One,80,60
Member of the Second Tier,160,145
Wolfherd,50,35
Fortuneteller,90,80

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,35
Commander of C'tis,40,40
Lizard Lord,60,50
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,40
Sauromancer,180,220
Shaman,110,95
Lizard King,280,215
Empoisoner,110,105

C'tis - Desert Tombs:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,95
Sauromancer,180,225

C'tis - Miasma:

Marshmaster,220,210

Arcoscephale:

Mounted Commander,60,65
Hoplite Commander,40,40
Hypaspist Commander,45,40
Strategos,65,50
Priestess,110,105
Mystic,180,165
Astrologer,180,170

Arcoscephale - Golden Era

Myrmidon Champion,35,40
Chariot Commander,70,75
Wind Lord,175,95
Engineer,60,60
Icarid Champion,50,45
Philosopher,50,45
Sceptic,50,50

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,45
Storm General,35,60
Seraph,100,155
High Seraph,175,305
Seraphine,90,110

Caelum - Return of the Raptors:

Harab Seraph,90,100
Seraph,140,135
Harab Elder,270,250

Ermor:

Centurion,30,25
Ermorian Cultist,45,30
Thaumaturg,130,120
Grand Thaumaturg,340,315

Marignon:

Paladin,130,65
Friar,40,50
Inquisitor,110,115
High Inquisitor,210,225
Initiate,65,50
Witch Hunter,150,155
Grand Master,270,305

Marignon - Conquerors of the Sea:

Captain,75,35
Chartmaker,90,80
Royal Navigator,200,205
Missionary,60,45
Admiral,100,40

Marignon - Diabolic Faith:

Diabolist,80,65
Goetic Master,190,205

Pangaea:

Black Harpy,20,45
Centaur Commander,60,60
Minotaur Lord,60,75
Centaur Hierophant,80,100
Dryad,110,140
Pan,350,350
Pandemoniac,320,265

Pangaea - New Era:

Cataphract Commander,60,60
Minotaur Commander,60,65
Keeper of Traditions,90,90
Dryad,110,110
Pan,350,290

Pangaea - Carrion Woods:

Panic Apostate,320,290
Black Dryad,90,100

Vanheim:

Herse,30,25
Vanherse,160,160
Vanjarl,280,280
Dwarven Smith,180,190
Vanadrott,380,325

Vanheim - Mitgard:

Vanherse,160,145
Vanjarl,280,255
Galderman,160,165
Volva,120,115

Vanaheim - Helheim:

Hangadrott,400,385
Svaltalf,180,165

Jotunheim:

Chief,50,75
Jotun Scout,50,95
Jotun Herse,60,85
Jotun Jarl,130,105
Jotun Gode,200,130
Vaetti Hag,55,55
Jotun Skratti,250,245
Gygja,250,205

Jotunheim - Utgard:

Seithkona,90,70
Norna,220,190

Jotunheim - Niefelheim:

Niefel Jarl,500,360
Gygja,250,230

R'lyeh:

Traitor Prince,60,70
Illithid Lord,80,85
Star Child,85,105
Starspawn,150,190
Starspawn,280,300

Mictlan:

Tribal King,40,50
Mictlan Priest,80,70
Priest King,250,235
Rain Priest,230,200
Moon Priest,230,200
High Priest of the Sun,390,350

Tien Chi:

General,80,70
Eunuch,25,10
Imperial Consort,40,15
Ceremonial Master,50,30
Minister of Rituals,100,60
Master of the Way,100,85
Celestial Master,250,195
Prince General,150,85

Tien Chi - Spring and Autumn:

Noble,80,85
Master of the Dead,75,60
Master of the Five Elements,190,140
Celestial Master,250,235

Tien Chi - Barbarian Kings:

Khan,100,85

Machaka:

Machaka Chief,30,30
Machaka Commander,45,40
Spider Lord,100,90
Ear of the Lord,70,65
Eye of the Lord,50,60
Voice of the Lord,90,80
Witch Doctor,80,65
Sorcerer,190,170
Hunter Lord,170,90
Black Sorcerer,250,205
Sorceress,110,80
Bane Spider,150,70

A couple of things to note:

The Philosopher now has the same cost as a 1-path mage. Researches two better, but can't cast rituals/forge items/find sites.

The Witch Doctor has the same research per turn that a 1-path Holy-2 priest has. So, in exchange for not being sacred, he has two more paths to ritualize/forge/find.

Now, I will try to find space for my mod somewhere, and then link to it from here. Something that will be in my mod is to increase the Astral and Death site-searching spells to 2-path required (and reducing Death's cost to 2). I feel that it breaks an otherwise equitable relationship. Voice of Apsu will also be moved down to Conjuration-2.

Once I have the mod posted, I need people to test it. Specifically, I'm afraid that if I follow the rubric, Caelum will definitely break, and R'lyeh will have problems.

While testing this version, I will be looking at another version that has slightly different magicpath costs. This is to try to alleviate the 'cheap 1-path mage' issue, but it will break R'lyeh and Caelum even more, so more analysis will be needed.

Anyway, comments are greatly welcomed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Niefel Jarl is worth 500 gold =)
TC Consort for 15 gold? When I play TC I pump out consorts like crazy. They're already one of the best units in the game... IMO.
Eunuch for 10 gold? ...to good for a leader, even a terrible one. 15 or 20 gold seems like a good absolute minimum.
45 for a black harpy is too much unless you give them leadership.
30 gold for a forester? I'm not really sure if anyone uses them now...
And considering all of Man's (Avalon) mages are capitol only, increasing the price is painful.
70g Lord Wardens are pretty crazy, too... IMO.
C'tis: Even at 35 nobody will buy a taskmaster.
Bane spider at 70? ... No, I refuse to play against Machaka with that setting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Those are incredibly good assassins that come with 10 death gems worth of magical weaponry.
Empoisoner also shouldn't drop in price considering their potency.

Well, those are just a few preliminary thoughts. I'm think that complexifying your formula to a form like (x^2+.5xy+(a+bc)^1.5)*10+(a^1.2+f+2x)*5+15 might be necessary to get a good result, rather than using a purly additive formula like x+2y+a+5b+c+15. I can't imagine making a purely additive formula that "considered" all of Dominions' complexities.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Incedentally, here's a formula I made for caulculating the worth of a unit's physical stats:
HP*((6+Prot)/6)*((Mor)/10)*((1+MR)/11)*(9/(6+Enc))*((3+Str)/13)*((2+Att)/12)*((1+Def)/11)*((3+Move)/5)*((40+AP)/50)
Go ahead and tell me how useful/worthless you think it is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A 'normal unit' with 10 hp, 10 att, 10 def, 10 str, 10 mor, 10 mr, 10, AP, 3 enc, 2 move, and 0 prot will come out as 10 gold. Also, I weighted defense more than attack and strength, and AP the least of all... I dunno, it works ok I guess.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I tend to think so, too. He weighs in at 400, then gets a 40g discount from that for being capital-only.

They're just spies, right? They could get another 5 or 10 points for having more Stealth than the 'average Spy', but not much more. If they're found, they're dead.

May I ask why? He's, well, crappy, to put it mildly. He not only can but probably WILL die to the first hit he takes from anything (including a stray arrow). There's really no way you can increase that.

10 Leadership would be 5,for a total of 50.

I can see them as somewhat useful as patrollers...

Um... not really. The Daughter of Avalon is the most under-costed mage in the game. The Mother and Crone are also quite under-costed, as they stand now. Really, I'm not going to cry, at all, about Man's mage costs increasing.

Perhaps, but Man's benefitting a lot from the capital-only reduction.

Quite possibly. THe aim is less to make everything 'more usable' than to see what they all 'should' cost.

Well, the Bane Spider is one of those 'niggling problems', which is how to quantify those Bane weapons.

Well, if there is to be a reduction for capital-only commanders, it should be applied across the board.

It's quite possible that a more complex formula would give better results. As it is, though, I think the remarkable thing is not the odd 'way out there' commander so much as all of the commanders that are either spot-on or quite close to spot-on.

I am confident that, if there is a more complex formula, it is not much more complex than the (very) simple formula I am currently using.

I know others have mentioned 'prioritizing' the various stats, but then you could wrangle forever on which are more important.

I am currently considering applying a 'diminishing returns' idea on the specials... as a note, the reason Caelum and Pangaea's commanders are so expensive is the large amount of specials they have. Perhaps if there is a 'full cost/75% cost/50% cost' diminishing cost on specials, it might assuage the issue.

OTOH... there are some that have many specials (Vanheim, for instance) that come out right on... I'll have to work on it.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

It sucks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif No, actually, I'll look into it and see what happens. Interesting formula. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I think his body is probably undercosted using an additive formula. Using my formula http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, I bet his body alone would come out about 300.

Here's the difference:
Lets say you have a guy with 20 HP, 20 Att, 20 Def, and everything else 'average'. An additive formula would tell you hes worth 40 gold, where as a multiplicative one would say 80. I guess Im more inclined to believe the latter, but maybe someone could run some quick combat sim tests to see how many 'average' troops that guy would be worth.
Well, the real reason I went multiplicative was that for my mod I had a guy with 5 HP, 5 Str, 5 MR, etc. who came out with a negative cost... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I think I'll add some comments just for fun.

W3S2 has no synergy, is very vulnerable to mind duel, and has no real offensive or ritual punch, so I'd never really buy these at 210.

I can't see ever spending this much on a mage that can do little besides summon vine ogres.

I don't think you've discounted them quite enough for having the extreme disadvantage of being both capital only, and being Man's only mages.

Here, their lack of mobility, and general fragility, especially when coupled with the middle of the road troops of C'Tis shoulnd't be overcosted.

Desert tombs already pays a hefty economic and scale hit, so the really don't need to have even fewer mages running around.

They are less useful than sauromancers in general, so they really should cost less. They suffer from the same problem of all the new themes and nations in DOM2, in that the mages are all too costly for what they can actually accomplish.

Would anybody ever buy any high seraphs if they cost this much? You'd get far better punch out of two normal seraphs.

The combination of astral 2, capital only, hurts these nearly as much as it does a deep seer. They also have the added disadvantage that they will start to cast sermon of courage or banishment instead of useful spells.

Diabolic faith has an even worse economic hit than Desert Tombs, which makes each mage cost relatively much more than a mage of the same gold cost for another nation. This isn't too far off from what you would expect however.

Jotuns have the disadvantage that while their commanders are very cheap for their performance, they won't stick around on the battlefield unless you have enough normal giants with them.

These always did seem overpriced to me.

I'd be wary of making one of the best sets of national mages even better.

Aren't these considerably more dangerous than a Vanadrott?

Assasination shouldn't really be figured into the cost of a researcher, as an assasin can never kill more than a single commander per turn, and is very rarely worth the time investment, let alone the gem investment.

Unlinked randoms make these only really useful as astral casters on the battlefield.

I pretty much expected these to be too expensive, but I'm surprised that all of the ?1H2 mages are less than 80 gold by your calculations.

That's close to a usable value, but they'd probably have to cost even less to make them powerful.

Death magic and astral magic are both important enough that no nation should be without them, so I'd be wary of making that change.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

At 15 gold, I'll have 10 or more castles recruiting nothing but consorts. That way I can completely shut down an opponent's economy. With 100 consorts you could shut down something like 10 provinces a turn, and never lose more than 1 in each province.

You don't patrol unless you are trying to catch spies or assasin's, and then you'll use enough cheap units that the bonus on a commander doesn't matter too much.

Which doesn't matter much past turn 5, as you'll be recruiting nothing but Crones as soon as possible.

Man is limited to a single crone per turn, which isn't nearly enough to keep up in most cases.

Man doesn't benefit from the capitol only reduction. Man is hamstrung by the capital only restriction for everything past the very earliest parts of the game.

You have to price commanders based on what they can accomplish. Empoisoner's are just about the only assasins that you'll ever be able to make use of besides taking out independents early on.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Hey, my modded assassins and slayers are pretty cool http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif And I loved building slayers in the base game. Skull Talisman, Boots of the Messenger, Lifelong Protection, Copper Plate and Lucky Coin made them able to take over many remote provinces alone... and those are all low-level items.

Of course, the way I play is not necessarily an effective way to play... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

OK, scratch that old and busted formula; that was just something basic to start off on. Here's the new hotness:
sqrt(((HP*(10.0+Prot)*Def*MR)/1000.0)*((Str*Att)/10.0))*((3.0+Move)/5.0)*((40.0+AP)/50.0)*(9.0/(6.0+Enc))*((Mor^log10(7))/7.0)

Comments:
HP, Prot, Def, MR, Str, and Att are all wieghted the same now.
The square root does not encompass Move, AP, Enc, or Mor.
log10(7) = 0.84509804001425683071221625859264 (about), meaning that about 22 Mor is worth twice as much as 10 Mor (instead of just 20 Mor being worth twice 10). I chose to use a logarithm with base 10 so that, for unit with 10 Mor, the equation (Mor^log10(7))/7 will equal 1, so a unit with 10 Mor will be 'average'.
The basic idea is: sqrt(defensiveness*offensiveness)*other. I decided upon this because in a simplistic system where the units only have 2 stats, HP and Damage, an ideal cost formula is sqrt(HP*Damage).
I counted MR as a defensive capability, but it could be brought out of the square root to be weighted more heavily.
I didn't really know what to do with Enc, so I just threw it in so that a unit with 0 Enc is worth 50% more than the same unit but with 3 ('normal') Enc, and the same unit but with 12 Enc is worth half as much.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I have a n00b modding question: How much is the 4th magic school worth? Ive been counting it the same as the 3rd school (10, 30, 50) so far... so that F2E2D1?1 costs 183.75.

Also, a few questions about your costs:
How much did poison resistance end up being worth? 10, same as elemental resistance? Less?
What about being an animal? I would think that does more harm than good, right?
50% increase for sacred troops, but not commanders, right?
Is the capital only reduction 10% or 20%?

One more question: What's with the 'Death Poison'? How much damage does it do?

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

K...

Very similar to most of these comments, while I do not disagree they have merit, you are also ignoring the base assumption that I made that all paths are equally valuable. I know they're not, you know they're not, but that is the assumption that Illwinter makes.

Would you perhaps give me what you think each path of magic should cost?

I can see them doing other things (like leading your Hydras).

Possibly. OTOH, why is a Daughter 80g, and a Druid 140g?

Oh, and there's the Bard, but I don't think anyone counts them.

As opposed to their ability to spam an endless horde of Undead, and the fact that they start with Terror?

Well, they (and Broken Empire Ermor) are the only nations that get National Unholy Priests. Ermor's cost upkeep; C'tis's don't.

I think it's more that the original nations are too good.

Quite possibly. Then again, this is how much Illwinter's formula gives them.

Perhaps. OTOH, Fire/Astral has many synergistic abilities.

About the only thing Diabolic Faith is missing is a national Blood-3 mage (which the Master can get, I believe).

Or you use nothing but Commanders. Experimenting with this approach, some increase in cost might be needed. Something I am looking into, however, is a way of working Size into the calculations... bigger troops get a reduction on certain things (HPs and Str, primarily). That would lower these costs, R'lyeh, and even Caelum.

Er... are you sure you want to agree with me on this? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I know how good these are, but if you increase the Astral/Death Searching spells to 2-path each, the Seithkona become a little less valuable.

Well, that depends. The Vanadrott is Glamored, and can throw much better spells, overall, than the Jarl. Perhaps Cherry can run them both through the simulator? Or can spells not be modeled just yet?

Perhaps a reduction in the cost would be in order, but not a simple ignoring of that ability. If you cut the Assassin cost in half, say, his cost goes down to 90. This would also help Man if you apply the same reasoning to the Bard.

Or guaranteed Acashic casters. Are they total randoms or not? I seem to recall a 5S one before. The cost is for total randoms. If they aren't, the costs may change.

I don't use the 'base 30g' cost. Instead, I use my own formula. However, I am thinking of raising the first path's first level cost from 30 to 50, which would add 20g to all of the 1-path mages. However, since that will cause issues with all of my magic pricing, I'm leery to try that just yet.

Is it their 1S that's a problem?

[/quote]

Perhaps, but this almost sounds like chicken-and-egg. Perhaps they are so important because the gems needed to power their spells are so easily found (comparatively speaking).

Anyway, I will take your comments under advisement.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Death Poison: 35 damage IIRC. Animal is a negative feature.

As for morale value... it's sort of an s-curve with the steepest part around 9, with asymptotes at maybe 5 and 16. I can't think of an s-curve equation offhand.

At any rate, morale 14 is perhaps twice as valuable as morale 10... and above that it doesn't matter much. From my observations.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Sorry, no... by the time I did that, I'd have pretty much written (a graphics-free version of) Dominions II.

(regarding Celestial Master)
The problem is that with their level-1 paths, there are virtually no useful spells they can cast.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Presuming I kill any of them before I'm right on top of you. You do have a point, though. Perhaps a blanket increase in their cost is in order. (All spies.)

Would it be better if catching a stealthy unit created an Assassination-type encounter?

Well, as a note, Assassins and Spies have become cheaper, so patrolling might be useful.

I don't necessarily agree with that, but then, I don't have your vast experience playing this game.

Perhaps. Again, you are the experienced player here.

And they benefit the same amount as anyone else by the capital-only cost reduction. Now, I may revise the reduction I give so that the reduction is greater the more capital-only commanders there are. That would solve this issue (about the only one it wouldn't solve would be the Bane Spider one).

[/quote]

If you say so. I've seen quite a few 'assassin builds' around that are quite effective at any point.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

And this is a problem? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

[/quote]

Which is why they're so low. *sigh* It seems apparentto me that people seem to think that the under-costed mages are the 'right' ones, and everything else is horribly overcosted.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Hmm... so perhaps I took the wrong approach.
How about: (((x/10)-1)^(1/3))+1
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Morale Cost
6 0.26
7 0.33
8 0.42
9 0.54
10 1.00
11 1.46
12 1.58
13 1.67
14 1.74
15 1.79
16 1.84
17 1.89
18 1.93
</pre><hr />

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Scott,

I think you are on the correct path with your costing. The power of Caelum and C'tis almost 100% come from their mages and this is refelect in your increase of their cost.

Your changes will clearly change the flavour of the game. Many people really like the current optimization points ( Caelum, magic dominating, etc ) but it would also be interesting to see how your mod plays out.

WRT Spies they really should cost more. A spy is worth far more than a scout.

I also think that making the cost reduction of a capital only commander a function of the number of capital only commanders a great idea. Actually it should probably be some kind of percentage formula. But I'm sure you will work it out.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

S2 or less is worth less than most other paths. S3 or more is worth more. W is worth the least of all except if it's in combination with a path that is useful on the battlefield.

I've never seen anyone actually use hydras, so I can't comment on that.

The druid is very common, the Daughter of Avalon is not.

They can only summon an endless horde of undead if you've also researched alteration 5 for drain life, and have also spent 10 death gems on a skull staff. Otherwise they only get to cast about 4 raise skeletons, which is not that scary of a force.

Unholy priests are severely overrated. By the time you've summoned enough so that they will have a noticeable effect on your battles, your opponents should be able to deal with longdead without much difficulty. The summoned unholy priests are probably better off when used as combat platforms.

That's your opinion. I'd say that Caelum's mages are a good baseline for what every nation should have.

True, but nobody would buy them at that cost.

It has a single synergistic spell in astral fire, which is inferior to the soul slay that an S3F3 mage could otherwise cast.

That does not work at all, as a single death means that all your commanders run away.

I'd go the other route and decrease all site searching spells to 1 in the respective path.

You don't use a Niefel Jarl for its spellcasting ability. You use it as a full-fledged SC. This is a role that a Vanadrott cannot match as the Van does not have sufficient hitpoints.

Why not ignore it? Is there any way to make assasination cost effective?

Acashic record costs too much to worthwhile.

If you have a 5S one, they you got very lucky, as you're much more likely to get something along the lines of S3W1B1N1, which doesn't have too much of a use.

That's the worst of their problems.

No, they are important because astral provides luck, and magic resist in the form of the lucky pendant, lucky coin, starshine skullcap and antimagic amulet, while death magic provides wraith swords and decent summons.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

They might be able to kill any human commander they run across, but that's not going to help you very much when somebody takes the fairly simple step of recruiting scouts, 30 gold commanders, and H2 priests for your assasins to spend their turns against.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Or maybe dump the equation and pull something like this:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Morale Cost
0 0.00
1 0.05
2 0.20
3 0.32
4 0.41
5 0.47
6 0.50
7 0.70
8 0.85
9 0.95
10 1.00
11 1.10
12 1.30
13 1.60
14 2.00
15 2.12
16 2.23
17 2.33
18 2.43
19 2.51
20 2.60
21 2.67
22 2.74
23 2.79
24 2.85
25 2.89
26 2.93
27 2.96
28 2.98
29 2.99
30 3.00
</pre><hr />


Right. Lets make national troops more useless than they already are. And lets make most battle summons more effective than most ritual summons. What a fun game!

If I can spend 50 Gold and a few gems to make my opponent lose 30-50 gold per turn, I'll be happy.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

That looks really good! My suggestions:

Cap minimum at .5, and cap maximum at 2.5. Morale 20 is NOT worth any more than morale 19. Not even .1%, and certainly not the 4% or so that your chart lists... since above 16 or so, units will almost never fail morale saves or repel rolls. I've never seen units with 18 morale retreat (when in their own squad).

Morale below 5 (from what I understand of the morale formulas) no longer has any real effect. Units with 5 morale will virtually always fail morale saves and repel rolls (that hit), so a morale 1 units is as useful as a morale 5 unit.

Thanks for generating the chart!

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

And that loss would be far more than 30-50 gp, as he would never know just where that assasin was going to be the next turn... Especially if he has flying boots. One would need to have 5+ scouts with any army that moves near enemy area, and either lots of scouts or lots of patrollers (or pd) in research provinces.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Are you still hung up on false horrors? They are decent, but it's not like there's no easy ways to get around them.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

You can generate s-curves (gamma curves) by integrating normal or polynomial distributions. In this case, integrating the distribution of 5 three-sided dice will get you almost the distribution you want: range of 5-15, with the steepest slope at 10.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Thanks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Actually, I play Dominions to get away from math (especially calculus) but for some reason it keeps popping up... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Really? Wow. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif From reading this thread and the others on modding and balance, I'd concluded:

1) You and the other good/knowledgable players really liked math.

2) The reason I'm not very good at Dom2 is that I wasn't using enuf math, and was worrying too much about silly notions like reducing the other side's ability to fight. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Hmm... maybe I was kidding a little. I actually like math, until people start talking about eigenvalues and integrating high-degree trig functions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I would prefer, actually, if you could rate each path separately, and then give a bonus/penalty on what paths it 'shows up with'. If you could do that, I could recalculate the costs of the mages.

Well, I like to use them, at least. I think that in MP they would be less viable, as apparently MR is about the only stat that is of any use.

The Druid also has an opportunity cost of 400g for the Temple and Laboratory to make him. The Daughter does not. Shouldn't that factor into the costs as well?

Hrm. I seem to do well enough with Enchantment-3 and the Raise spells (they can throw about 5 or so each before falling over). Then again, I never get to play against the cutthroat MP people.

Mm. I have a question, Graeme. This is meant seriously, not sarcastically. Do you use non-summoned troops at all in your games?

That would require an entire re-write of Illwinter's magic cost formula to compensate. Would you like me to do that, and then report on what everyone's mages should cost?

At this point, I think you should talk to Illwinter about their costing formulas, then.

Barring other factors (like someone spamming troops), yes. Again, there is always a way to handle that issue.

Mm. Wouldn't that make Sages even better than they are currently?

I would think that with the spells a Vanadrott can cast, the HPs would not be as great of an issue. I would agree that the Hangadrott is a better example than the Vanadrott, but that would require me playing with a Death scale.

Apparently, you don't think so. However, if I removed the cost for being an assassin, you'd have a flood of them. Now, working on the 'diminishing returns' system, a mage-assassin wouldn't 'spend' as much for his assassination capability as the 'straight' assassin (to the point of 0, perhaps).

Personally, I don't use Assassins for the same reasons I am 'troop-based'. I hate having too many commanders to tell what to do (it makes the turns take too long, for me).

Again, that is your opinion. If I have casters who can cast Acashic Record, I generally prefer to use that than the other site-searching spells.

Oh, it's very rare, I'll grant you. I wanted to know more from a 'did I use the correct formula to cost them' standpoint than anything else.

Mm. Well, 'spread-out' mages cost less.

[/quote]

And if they didn't? And what you term 'decent' I term 'overpowered', by and large.

However, I am not trying to 'mod' the game to what I think is fair or balanced. I am trying to see if I can come up with a rubric that calculates the gold cost of a commander accurately.

To that end, I am going to raise the 'first path, first level' cost from 30 to 50, and recalculate the mages. I will probably also have to make Holy magic the same as the first path magic (50,90,150), and it will again come closer to current costs.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

As I said to Graeme, my intent is not to change the balance point of the game, but to find a point where everything comes out to the cost that is listed for them in the games.

I'd hope that I wouldn't change the flavor of the game that much.

Yes, but right now it's worth 10 more. Much more than that, and... well, I don't know. How much do you think an Assassin is worth? Do you think a Spy is worth more?

A percentage formula could end up with expensive mages (like the Crone) ending up nearly the same as less expensive mages, which would obviate the cheap mages.

Quite possibly, -10g,-5g for each commander after the first, would work. It sort of feels weird for me to have one percentage-based calculation, and no others.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I love math, and I love to generate statistics. However, I am neither very good or very knowledgeable about this game.

*chuckles* Nah. I'm just trying to find something to occupy my mind, and I came up with this.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I understand but it will clearly change the balance of the game. Right it it looks like a lot of the powerful nations take it on the chin and I'm all for that. I look forward to a game with these new costs!

A game with these costs ( although the Nifel Jarl has to be worth more ) Sable Cherry's troop costs, Zen's spell mod, a crushing of battlefield spells ( a-la the mods Soapy has been running ), the change of all 0 enc to 1 enc, and the removal of life drain would be just swell for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I always found them undercosted. If your nation can make spies that is a real plus which indicates in my mind that the ability is undercosted.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Hydras lose because they don't have a protection score that allows them to stand up to more than about 5 militia without a serious expenditure on bless effects. Then, MR matters on those expensive units because they are a large investment, and the easiest way to defeat single large creatures is with stuff like soul slay.

The temple is useful by itself, and having a second laboratory to spread out your researchers is also a pretty good idea.

5 raise skeletons is only 25 longdead. 25 longdead, while being fairly significant as a delaying tactic, don'tnlast very long if you've planned to face undead.

Sure. I use more national troops that I really should in most cases, because I try to take my first province at turn two, and move up to two per turn by turn 4-5 at the latest. I don't, however, use very many con-commander summoned troops.Devils, fiends, lamia's and a couple of others are worthwhile. I find that in most other cases I'd be better off spending the gemson equipment.

Well, maybe not to the extreme that is Caelum, but C'Tis is probably a good baseline.

Well, that's the reason that few people play Broken Empire Ermor as well. The Grand Thaumaturgs cost twice what a Sauromancer costs, but are also capital only and limited to D2S2?1. Even bumping them up to D3S2?1 makes them a significant threat.

Commanders without backup troops get overrun too easily by lifeless battle summons.

Probably. I'd also get rid of the research bonus on sages in that case.

It would have to have fire and cold immunity, which pretty much needs miscellaneous equipment slots. This would leave its MR lacking, or leave it without sufficient prot to survive being swarmed.

Unless you haven't searched the province at all, that's costing you more in gems than using the individual spells.

Yes, you did.

If astral and death magic didn't provide those things, then they wouldn't be nearly as useful at low levels. This would further marginalize most of the nations and pretenders by reducing the number of viable strategies.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Oh, yes, I agree there. Regarding Hydras, though, a Nature-4 blessing is normal for me (and also puts you in good stead to get Gift of Health).

Agreed, but if I had a choice, I'd rather put the Laboratory in a Sage province rather than a Druid province. (BTW, the Druid is overcosted, but the concept is the same.)

25 Longdead, per Sauromancer. Spending money on Sauromancers instead of troops, and 'rushing' to Enchantment-3, seems a not too entirely bad early strategy with C'tis.

I'm just wondering where you get all the money to do everything you seem to think is able to do. I mean, I play with good Scales and such, but I never seem to have enough money to do anything.

Then again, I do play on small maps normally, so the games don't last that long.

To outfit SCs?

C'tis isn't that much out of whack, actually.

I love Broken Empire Ermor. Pythium's troops with Undead armies?

Score.

That's why you have a couple of commanders spamming your own lifeless battle summons, right?

That would certainly be interesting. You'd have to change some of the other mages as well, and you'd also increase the cost of random picks in general with that.

Mm. Everything is focussed around making unkillable SCs, isn't it? I wonder if anyone could destroy that capability in the game...

Assuming I have access to all of the individual spells, yes. A lot of the time, I don't.

What, in your opinion, WOULD increase the number of options while also decreasing reliance on SCs?

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I think it's because nature 2 is very useful in general to a nation without nature mages, but not that useful to a nation with N3A2?1 mages.

It's a very good strategy. You do need a screen of living troops to prevent being arrowed, and to prevent cavalry charges.

You don't do everything, you basically pick and choose which things you're going to concentrate on, and hope that your allies can help to cover the holes.

I'd classify them as thugs.

I like them too, it's just that they are missing something to give them punch.

You can do that, but you'll also need to bring a storm along to keep those commanders safe.

Not everything, Vanadrott's are unparalled as a raiding force, and if you could make them fly would be nearly unstoppable.

I always make it a priority to find and/or develop mages that are capable of casting those spells.

Change the routing behaviour to allow one to force commanders to remain on the battlefield unless the commander fails a morale check. This would allow a nation like Ulm to take down many SCs using black lords with cheaply forged equipment. You could also use commanders like Firbolgs in large quantities without worrying about whether one of them will be killed and flee the battlefield.

Spells that can significantly improve the abilities of normal troops at easier to reach research points than alteration 9.

More games should be played on the rich setting as well, as it places the magic/might balance point at a considerably different location. Or just mod the game so that every province produces twice as much gold.

Change encumbrance and fatigue so that they are less granular, and so that stronger and larger creatures aren't as fatigued by their armour.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

In Master of Magic the problem was solved by combination of unit buffs and more powerful experience levels which only affects nationl units.
One thing I think would like is that summonables with 14+ stats would start with few experience stars and get their stats lowered so that it amounts the same thing. Then elite and experienced nationals would have some change of killing Devils etc, as they wouldn't have gotten the same bonuses as fast.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Zen has done this in his mod and it is getting a serious workout in the Faerun game.

If you are in the camp who thinks SC's are too powerful then simply changing all units to have at least 1 base encumberance and removing lifedrain weapons works swell.

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I didn't last long enough in that game to see how those changes worked, so what kind of effects are army of gold and lead having?

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

I do, too, normally. That's why I like Nature Pretenders so much. In fact, I think that the Lady of Fortune is my all-time favorite.

BTW, I'm experimenting with Last of the Tuatha Sidhe Champion rush, and it's looking good so far. While not the fastest thing in the world, it's certainly rather solid, and doesn't suffer from the 'screening' problems you mention below.

*nods*

What means this 'allies'? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Pursuant to the conversation Graeme and I had in this thread, here's a list of mage costs using a slightly different formula. It uses the Caelian Seraph and the 'low end' mages (Seithkona, etc.) as a balance point.

Warning: This is rather radical, and uses a cost reduction gradient for capital-only commanders.

King of the Deep - 180
Initiate of the Deep - 50
Deep Seer - 155

Theurg Acolyte - 80
Theurg - 140
Arch Theurg - 310

Serpent Acolyte - 80
Serpent Priest - 165

Daughter of Avalon - 65
Mother of Avalon - 80
Crone of Avalon - 155

Sidhe Champion - 95
Sidhe Lord - 135
Tuatha - 205

Master Smith - 100

Black Priest - 130

Illuminated One - 60
Second Tier - 100
Fortuneteller - 80

Sauromancer - 160
Shaman - 80
Empoisoner - 75

Keeper of the Tombs - 100
Marshmaster - 145

Priestess - 110
Mystic - 135
Astrologer - 140

Seraph - 100
High Seraph - 190

Harab Seraph - 90
Seraph - 90
Harab Elder - 180

Thaumaturg - 130
Grand Thaumaturg - 285

Inquisitor - 110
High Inquisitor - 210
Initiate - 60
Witch Hunter - 120
Grand Master - 245

Diabolist - 80
Goetic Master - 150

Chartmaker - 80
Royal Navigator - 150

Dryad - 110
Pan - 195
Pandemoniac - 160

Dryad - 80
Pan - 170

Panic Apostate - 170
Black Dryad - 80

Vanherse - 100
Vanjarl - 150
Vanadrott - 205
Dwarven Smith - 130

Galderman - 120
Volva - 80

Hangadrott - 235
Svartalf - 115

Vaetti Hag - 60
Jotun Skratti - 150
Gygja - 135

Seithkona - 90
Norna - 135

Niefel Jarl - 500 (since everyone agrees he's worth that much)

Starchild - 60
Starspawn - 130
Starspawn - 180

Mictlan Priest - 80
Priest King - 140
Rain Priest - 140
Moon Priest - 140
High Priest of the Sun - 240

Master of the Way - 100
Celestial Master - 160

Master of the Dead - 80
Master of the Five Elements - 130
Celestial Master - 190

Witch Doctor - 80
Sorcerer - 130
Sorceress - 85
Black Sorcerer - 140

Anathemant Salamander - 130
Anathemant Dragon - 270
Warlock Apprentice - 90
Warlock - 175
Demonbred - 160

Newt - 80
Sanguine Acolyte - 80
Sanguine Anathemant - 130

Re: Random Picks and Modding...
 

Lots of cheap mages!

Do you have what the Niefel Jarl would have been with your formula?