Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yeah but since we plan to play without forge of the ancients it is hard to get bloodstone forgers.
Abysia and Marignon DF are the only 2 nations who can get them.
But only every 8th Goetic master/Warlock has an earth pick.
Warlocks are capitol only, Goetic masters are difficult to get in masses with forced turmoil 1 for marignon DF.

I slightly nerfed them now too though.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Current Beta of my balanced hoarding mod:

Clam:
3W needed to forge = 20w or 15w with hammer

Fever Fetish:
3F 1N needed to forge = 20f 5n or 15f 3n with hammer

Blood Stone:
4B 1E needed to forge = 40b 5e or 30b 3e with hammer

Soul Contract:
5B 3F needed to forge = 80b 20f or 60b 15f with hammer

Reasoning:
Soul Contract:
6B would be extremely expensive with wish disabled. Payback time would be 160:7 = 23 turns or 17 turns with a dwarfen hammer. A dwarfen hammer is not so easy to get for Abysia + Marigon(earth random, blood stone and earth boots) and extremeley difficult to get for Mictlan, Mictlan needs to trade them or put earth on their god.
This way the Soul contract is still an option but balanced.
Also note that a scouting enemy will see your devils and then do a few flames/blizzards on that province likely.

Blood Stone:
First i wanted to make them earth 10 but then Abysia+Marignon , the only 2 blood nations that can forge bloodstones, would need to empower a guy to earth 2 first in order to forge bloodstones.

Fever Fetish:
First i wanted to make them 10n 5f but this way machaka would be the only nation which could forge them easily and they could massproduce them.

With 20f 5n they can be produced by all the classic fever fetish forgers but need 1-2 fire boosters.
In the long run they are still an investment to consider but they are imho balanced now also.

Clam:
Switched to W3 cause disabling hoarding for caelum, mictlan and jotunheim seemed unfair to me. For 20w clams can still be considered but the payback is 40 or 30 turns with hammer.

This mod is only a suggestion though, if the majority wants no hoarding at all this is easy doable too:
So i can simply disable them if wanted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Just continue telling me your opinions since we have some time now anyways waiting for the last 3 players to join http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

With 75 sites on a 400+ province map. I wonder if these nerfs arn't too much... its not like people arn't going to have a ton of gems anyways.

Then again, Atlantis is a good clamhoarding nation so maybe I'm just being selfish http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yeah those gems are imho already more then enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I'd like to take Caelum if possible.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Sure. Welcome http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Cool we need only 1 more player.
Only still unclaimed nation is pythium.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

You never have enough gems. Those nerfs look good. They crush my plan of drowning the world in a sea of soul contracts so that's good.

Oh I'm sure it will drive me insane.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Flames / Blizzards can be ignored by the contracted unit, if properly equipped. 1-H weapon, Burning Pearl, Fire Plate, Lucky Coin, Ring of Frost cost 25 gems and protect the carrier from lesser horrors, seeking arrows, ranged spells, and so forth. Abysians only need a Ring of Frost, since high HP and armor should protect them from seeking arrows.

However, 3 fire puts Soul Contracts totally out of reach for Jotunheim, Vanheim, and BF Ulm, simply due to mage paths. I'm not saying that 6B 2F is necessarily better... but 5B 3F in a very large, 75% magic site game seems to restrict Soul Contracts to only Abysia / Marignon / Mictlan, without making the price substantially higher, giving those nations a major long-term advantage.

Vanheim (IMO) is the primary bloodstone nation, as it can not only forge bloodstones, but strongly benefits from them. Dwarves with a blood random would have a hard time forging high-blood, low-earth stones...

The changes to Clams and Fetishes seem good. Did you consider making Clams 2 paths, so that nobody can make them with normal mages and start hoarding them from turn 2? 3W 1N makes clamming harder by restricting the mages that can do it, and involves 3 discrete gem types.

I'm not participating in the game, just commenting as an interested observer. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But I will mention one more thing... have you given any thought to nerfing the Soulstone of the Wolves? Since... I think it's bugged. Isn't it supposed to cast Howl only once?

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Doing some test games, I don't yet see a big boost for Atlantis, at least not compared to other nations...want to clue me in?

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I would deep-six soul contracts entirely if I were you. Just my opinion. Vampire Lords could be a problem too, you never know.

Actually I would deep-six all gem generators, but I guess in that case you'd have to do something about troll kings, sea kings etc.

But that's just my opinion, the nerfs you presented will probably work out OK, at least until the game goes crazy around turn 70 or so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Well seeing as I am your neighbor ... no http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Aww heck ok. IIRC their basic infantry became quite a bit cheaper. Combined with the supply boost this made taking indeps quite easy. At least it did in my trial runs. Maybe it won't work out like that in the real game.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yeah the shamblers did drop in cost. I almost never used them, now perhaps I will. But I don't think atlantis is unbalanced, although I hope I'm wrong http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I vote for no gem generators also. Give Devils, Vampire Lords, and Vampires a hefty gold cost so players can't afford the upkeep for large armies of them.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

This is a bit difficult though cause then we would need to do this with all the other stuff also. If we would make Devils cost upkeep we would need to do the same for Mechanical Men, Tartarians, Vine Ogres etc. etc. . And we would need to do it with SCs/Thugs as Banelords,Devils,Tartarians and Uniques also.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Actually, the best solution is for all troops to cost upkeep and then to raise the income levels to compensate.

Either that or have no troops (other than commanders) to cost upkeep.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Mechanical Men, ect cost gems and then get used up in battle. With Soul Contracts you can invest some blood slaves and then pump out one devil per turn for the rest of the game. Vampire Lords can pump out flying immortals.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I would like to see how the game plays with the mods but no additional nerfs.

There have not been too many games (if any) played with this particular configuration of mods. It would be good to see how they affect things without adding too many additional variables to the mix.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yeah! Considering how heavily modded this game is and the extreme settings, who knows how it will play out?

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

It will play out with lots of clams and devils http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Your just saying that cause you are Atlantis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I will play out with lots of militiamen

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

One option is my crazy-psycho 9 province start idea from that game a while back. It can jump-start things, giving armies a head-start on gem-generators. Of course, the gem-generators will catch up, it's not much of a head start, but it's something.

Another idea along the same lines is to greatly lower indy strength, like to 4-5. Then people will be up in each other's faces faster, making investment in gem generators more risky.

Also, given the huge gem incomes everyone will have anyway (just from the 75% sites thing), gem generators are diluted somewhat and are of less value. i.e. It's better to take a province rather than build a clam under these settings. Of course, everyone will just be doing both, but hey.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I agree with Saber Cherry.

Boron, if you think about it, if you just get rid of soul contracts completely (and the game WILL be better for it!) you just need to worry about Vampire Lords generating armies of vampires. Giving vampires and VLs upkeep costs is actually somewhat thematic, and it will help control the problem of the mile-wide-mass 'o vamps on defence that will surley crop up as the game goes into the later stages.

I think they are (apart form Soul Contracts) really the only other super abusable free summons. No one is really worried about enormous armies of wolves, for example.

As for a 9 prov-start and "diluting" hoarding with 75% magic sites, this is just a slight delay of the problem.

However I will not twist anyone's arm on the subject.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.

CUnknown the reason why gem producers are good even with 75% sites is that this is an FFA. If there were only 2 sides going at it then generators would not be a huge deal. However generators allow the player who does not get into conflict to gain far more than those that go for conflict ( unless there is a very quick resolution, which really does not happen that quickly ).

I have no problem with gem producers in small tight games with 2 players or heck with 3. But as the number of players increases the desire to hoard increases rather dramatically.

We'll see what happens. I think that Boron's 1st crack at stopping Hoarding was decent. But I can live with Hoarding at full power ... I suppose. I also have not checked out Zen's latest spell mod but I bet he does not nerf battlefield spells anywhere nearly as much as they were nerfed in the last Faerun game. So that will be interesting. Warthful Skies are here again!

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Hi, guys. Can i play with Pythium? If possible, i'll do it.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Welcome, Dian!

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

So far I see two votes against additional nerfing (Oversway + me).

Others seem to be in favor of something, but there is no agreement so far that I can see on exactly what form the additional nerfs should take.

I think we have 17 players now.

Time to put it to a formal vote?

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Most undead should never, ever need upkeep. However, Vampires - and possibly Liches / Demiliches - are different. Vampires like to live in the lap of luxury, and have all the normal human desires... moreso even than humans.

How do these numbers sound?


Scheme 1: Low costs, solely to prevent mega-abuse.

Vampire: 25g
Vampire Count: 75g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 180g


Scheme 2: Costs in rough accordance with unit power.

Vampire: 30g
Vampire Count: 100g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 280g


Scheme 3: High costs to reflect the exorbitant lifestyle and tastes of Vampires.

Vampire: 40g
Vampire Count: 140g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 380g

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Vote! Vote!

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Welcome Dian.

So now lets definitely vote.

First just a simple vote for one of the 3 choices:

-No additional nerfs
-"Balanced" Hoard items
-extremely nerfed Hoard items

If the majority votes into one direction then we will do this direction, if it doesn't and we don't get a simple 50% majority for something then Aku the host decides.

So happy voting http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

It's the summon allies which I was exactly addressing. The summoning of a vampire ally is ~= to 2 maybe 3 blood per turn. That makes it a 25-30 turn ROI which is more than fine. Using vampires lords to summon allies is a VERY sub-optimal way to use them and gives returns far below any other gem generator even post nerf.

It is *not* a strategy that I would use.

However I *would* normally summon VL's as they are excellent summons. Putting maintainace on them would pretty much crush that.

I'm for nerfing Soul Contracts as they are too efficient ( and I think Boron's Changes are fine, in my mod I put them at 160 blood but that was due to the game being played in 2.15 where stealthy units could not be killed by horrors in 2.16 this is fixed ). However I'm not for maintainace on vampire lords. They are one of the few mass producable leaders that blood has. Blood needs them badly. Zen's mod already nerfs them rather badly.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

According Vampires we need no nerf at all imo:
Zens Spell mod raised the price for them to 77 Blood.
And with Zen's Spell mod there is no wish.

So even Abysia should have big troubles getting a higher blood income then 500 blood per turn until very lategame.

And in very lategame you can do anti-blood strats like plague etc. .

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I vote that your 1st attempt at balance was fine:

I would personally punish clams a little more since they have no draw back ( unlike contracts and fetishes ) like by adding 1N to them. But to each his own.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I agree also. It will be rough to do in game but doable.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Would you object to a 30 gold cost(2 upkeep) for Vampires, and 0 upkeep for Vampire Lords?

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

OK nerf them a little, but let it be clear.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I'm not convinced we should nerf anything. If we nerf clams to 3w, only Atlantis has an easy time using them. Before we nerf anything, we should consider the very minor changes I've suggested:

1) 9-prov start (I wish you could go higher)
2) 4-5 strength indies

I wish you could make items cost more, but not require a higher magic level to produce. Then I'd be all in favor of having clams cost 20 gems, as long as they still only took a 2-w caster to make.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yes quite strenuously.

Actually to be clear: I would object if they were the only summon handled in this fashion. If all summons were to have upkeep I would have no problem what so ever.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Damn this is difficult http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
If we give all Summons Gold Upkeep then probably nobody builds national armies any longer in lategame once again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif.

I personally don't think vampires are so dangerous though they are much weaker then devils and can be killed quickly with various mass desctruction spells like wither bones, holy pyre or wrathful skies.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

My vote: no nerfs whatsoever! (Still!) I'm also against the 9 province start.

I think everyone should limit themselves to the options Boron outlined and quit proposing alternatives at this point: with everyone proposing their own nerf ideas, the pro-nerf vote is going to be very fractured.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Do you also object to clams being nerfed unless all magic items are nerfed? This a 17 player FFA, we don't need to balance summons or magic items, we need to balance hoarding.
All hoard items should be nerfed, that includes clams, fever fetishes, blood stones, soul contracts, and vampires.

Anyway some summons already have upkeep : trolls, sea trolls, and black hawks IIRC

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yes, but you have to fight them over and over again, they are immortal and they can fly across the map allowing them to protect a large area.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

The map is very large...vampires when they die go to the capital and this isnt a wrap around map so it will take quite some time to get back to the front line. Vampire lords got put to 77 blood in zens mod...I dont see a problem.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I vote for no nerf. Clams at 3w, it will be atlantis only.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I agree. Less talk more action

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I vote no nerf on anything. I would like to see indies lowered, however.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

Yeah screw the nerfs. If someone tries to hardcore hoard they will get killed by the expansionist anyway with these settings. Boron the reason we put 75 sites was to balance hoarding and expansionism. We dont need a hoarding nerf mod. We have 17 players already, hopefully we start this by tomorrow night with uploading our pretenders.

Re: Faerun-Zens Scales/Pretenders/Spells,SCs Unit
 

I vote for no nerfs. Let's just enjoy the 3 mods.