Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

There are many typos in OOBs,but we must chooce from two options: WinSPWW2 or OOBs without typos, I vote for WinSPWW2...

SERIOUS flaws with WG and others OOB in 2.51
 

I noticed that in version 2.51 or 2.5 has BIG troubles with OOBs. The corrections, at least a lot of them, that were made in version 2.0 has been cancelled. For example ROF in PzH2000 and Paladin is now 4. Mountain troops in WG no more have their +7 in troop quality not to mention the scouts. Prizes of the tanks and other units are wrong. Etc, etc, etc...

Whats has gone wrong?

And when you next time update the WG OOB, could you also add AP ammos in 40mm HK-69 GL for the Jaeger units without PzFaust? Now they dont have any anti-armor possibilities.
And add bigger trucks too!

In my opinion SPCAMO could update the OOBs continuously and put them for example in this forum to be downloaded. Like you have put the OOB of Britain. In that way we wouldnt have to wait new version to get updated and official OOBs.


Olli

Re: SERIOUS flaws with WG and others OOB in 2.51
 

CLICK HERE and DL the correct West German OOB for ver 2.5. An older version was issued with the ver 2.5 patch in error. Follow the instructions for extracting this OOB to your game on that thread

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

I found info from Rheinmetall's site about the Marder A5 that specifies it as mine resistant. Would that be a good change for you?
http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/ind...&action=pd

New WG OOB
 

Here's my first contribution to OOB's.

*Most unit names are in german
*New units
*Upgraded units (Visions, etc.)
*False units removed(Fuchs 2& Weasel 2 TOW)
*New formations
*New guns
*Changed AP-ammos for GL:s after 90's.

Most changes apply after 1990. In the year 2006 you can see all of them.

Let me know what you think of it and give feedback so that I can make it better.

Thanks!

Re: New WG OOB
 

Hi,

nice OOB. I have made also a new OOB ("Alpha OOB")
Do you have a list of detailed changes ?

I see you added AP ammo to the 40mm grenade laucher.
i thought about this also, wasn´t shure if for this weapon
AP grenades are/were in use.... any special ino on this ?
On the BW site it says only use against troops/soft targets...

Re: New WG OOB
 

Sorry for the delay...
Unfortunately I didn't make a list of changes when I made my OOB. Now after a while it's almost impossible to do it.

What it comes to AP ammos for the 40mm grenade launcher I added those to Jaeger Squads without PzFst3. I don't have any "hard evindence" that this would be the case in real life. I did it in order to make the OOB more playable in email games. The fact that for example german parapioneers have AP ammos in their GL's supported my decicion. I think that it would't be too unrealistic to assume that in the wartime there would be few Jaeger Companys armed with AP GL's and without PzFst's... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PS. I hope that in the version 3 there will be a whole new OOB for Germany.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

v3.5 .. great to see the Puma on board finally ..
.. but only 1 armor variant?!

However, I spotted a glaring bug:

The Leopard 1 A5 ended its service on 31.12.2003
wikipedia

(One of the) Last unit(s) equipped with the "Leo 1" was the Panzerbataillon 74 (inofficially nicknamed "Die Eisenschweine" = "The Iron Pigs"), which was decommissioned on that date: PzBtl 74

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

On the list.....

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

obat44 - W.Germany - Version Mar/2010

W#182 27mm BordKannon
- what is a "27mm BordKannon"? It's either "27mm on-board cannon", "27mm Bordkanone", or (better: ) according to german milspeak "Bordkanone 27mm" or (best: ) "27mm Mauser BK-27" - used in the Panavia Tornado, the Alpha Jet, the JAS 39 Gripen, and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

W#7 G3, W#8 G36, W#9 G11 ...
- G36 gets Acc 6 !?! .. G11 might be ok with "3", surely not G36 with "6".

U#229-241/250-252/257 and many more:
"PzGrenadiers" => "PzGrenadiere"
"Pioneers" => "Pioniere"
"Paratroops" => "Fallschirmjaeger" (sgl. & pl.)

U#519-523 Fernspah Sec
- it's "Fernspaeher" (sgl. & pl.)
- remove the "Sec", as it is not part of the name. "Trupp" would be correct. Strength is 4 or 6 men, depending on mission (objective) => 4 men "Trupp", 6 men "Verst(aerkter). Trupp", although I'm not sure if the later one is correct.
Info on wikipedia seems to be as correct as things can get with such units ;)
- equipment is too heavy. Remove MG3 and all tank busting equipment. Add sniper rifles where missing. One could argue for satchel charges for special assignments, but those should be up to a scenario designer, not part of the standard OOB

U#495-499 "Mtn. Scouts"
- are basically duplicates to U#420-424 "Gebirgsjaeger" (which are properly named, at least)

U#52-54/118 Marder A3/A5
- does not get Vis40 (TI), but U#68 SpPz Luchs A3 does? Is the "Wärmebildgerät" used in "Marder" inferior to that used in "Luchs"?

U#93 Gepard A3
- End-of-Service is 31.12.2010. There are claims that some will be stored until Mantis/Ozelot is fully combat-ready, but as the Gepard is phased out because of maintenance/update costs, I doubt they would be of much use, and therefore used, at all, even if some are stored. (They like storing things, like severel 100k G3 rifles, so it's not completely unlikely)

U#103 M109A3G
- End of Service 31.5.2007. wikipedia (en, ge) has lots of source which seem reliable

U#153 105mm Section
- the "Feldhaubitze 105mm" is only used for salute any more. Most likely for decades (Artilleriereform '85 or something like that) EoS 2020 is obviously completly incorrect. http://www.deutschesheer.de/portal/a...%2Fcontent.jsp

U#155 155mm Section
- "Last unit (225th Mountain Artillery Battalion) converted to tracked artillery in 2002"


... there are many more errors I noticed skimming through the OOB, where
a) equipment is given as available years or even a decade after it has been phased out
b) equipment is duplicated, like having Milan-III in PzGr squads, and another Milan squad in the same platoon

Sadly, I don't have the time to check them all ...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Stumbled upon the next one:

Unit #55/56 GTK Boxer
Is surely not available from 1/2007, but from 10/2010 at best - most likely later, considering all the delays that already happened
http://www.bmvg.de/portal/a/bmvg/kcx...ntent.jsp.html

That makes the following formations "hang in the air", as they won't have any transport before that date:

F#230/231 MRAV
F#235/236 MRAV Recce
.. and others ...

I would suggest using Unit #551 Fuchs 2+ instead - I'm not sure, but which other vehicle is reported to be used e.g. in Afghanistan?
MRAV Recce gets the Marder A5 - but that one can carry only 6, but the Jaegers are 9 men ... Btw., it looks like the Marders are not primarily used as APC, but as support "tanks", as the Fuchs APC only have MG3 ... .
Therefore it would make sense replace the Marder in the APC role, but add some additional ones as support .. wait, that's what the APC/IFV duality in that formation is for .. must have a closer look ...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Well defining end dates in a lot of case is a tricky affair, since the basic assumption for the game is at least a degree of mobilization.

OTOH the Luchs did get thermal sights in some upgrade, but I never researched Germany.

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Both got their TI equipment during upgrades .. though it might not be the same one .. havn't found any credible sources 'bout what has been upgraded to - therefore it might be possible that the WBG used in Marder is of inferior type, maybe unable to see through smoke (though unlikely).

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Unit #323 GMTF(DURO IIIP)
.. is missing its pic !


SPz Puma ( "Puma IFV" )
... will only be available from late 2011/2012 onwards ...

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

SHOCKING ! :eek:


http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showt...t=31875&page=9

DL the Pictures.zip from message 82

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

When we first put it in three or four years(+) ago 6/2009 seemed a reasonable guesstimate. Unfortunately, despite what some may think I have neither the time nor the inclination to continually check on the status of every vehicle in the game that may or may not actually make it to the troops and since I'm not on the German high commands mailing list this one seems to have slipped by everyone but you. ( attaboy ! ) We do catch and correct what we can but in many cases it's players who spot issues like this and IF I change the start date to say.........1/2012,( another " reasonable guesstimate" at this time and date ) how much do you want to bet that will eventually be proven wrong giving someone else the joy of pointing out an error in the game.

However , I am noting all this down for whenever we decide to issue the next release and happily you do seem to be finding the time to let us know about at least a few of them.

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Hopefully you won't miss any ... you'll have to scroll waayyy up already, and the list will surely get longer ... .

And no, I am not happy about this at all: I'm trying to set up a generated campaign since yesterday, and because I'm constantly stumbling 'bout those errors, I have not gotten anywhere ... :(

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Point well taken about the BOXER. However I posted about the BOXER in my APC thread on pg.1 with response on pg.2 concerning the Dutch BOXER. Time just ran out :help: to get the patch finished. Even I might have to revisit a "hot issue" I had in the past, we'll see, if so I'll note it and get it up the chain of command a little earlier. But to support the German BOXER issue I submit the following:
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/articl...p?forumID=1433 and
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mrav/
Like I say for some of my sports teams "There's always next year!"
Aufedersein!
Regards,
Pat

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

U#67 Fennek
- there are several versions of the Fennek; in game terms, there should be at least a FO and a Panzeraufklärer (armoured recon) version.
- all versions have full termal sighting for spotting purposes
- FO version should be with GPS
- arm. recon version should come in pairs with MG3/40mm GL: 2 PzAufkl. with different weapon make a recon section (therefore both units should be in one section, what is hard to achieve with SPMBT => different unit subclasses needed)
- The turret is fitted with Peri Z17 telescope, optionally even with its own night vision equipment. This surely justifies better FC/RF values than 1/0 (which are typical for tripod MG or vehicle-mounted AA guns, with iron sights); at least something along the lines of 8/5 like some '60 Greyhound ?! http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/ind...ri%20z17&pdb=1


@Fastboat
Concerning the Boxer, I gave the link to the official german army website in my posting somewhere above, which -at a first glance- basically says exactly the same things as your articles - in german though ;-)

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

I have arrived at this portion of the " to-do" list and I just want to say thanks for the perfectly useless URL that contributes nothing whatsoever to knowing WHEN the 105's stopped being used by front line troops.


1/ Any non english naming in this or any other OOB has been added on the assumption that it will be easily interpreted by everybody, not just Germans. For good or bad we are living with that experiment in winSPWW2 and will not be repeating it in MBT.

2/ "basically duplicates"??. really ? Please explain how a 3 man scout team with reduced weaponry "basically duplicates" a 9 man infantry section.

Don

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Yeah, ain't that great .. someone must have removed most of the content. Did some digging for you, and that's what I found:

1985+ ... the 105mm where moved into (partly) inactive reserve units ("Heimatschutzbrigaden")
https://www.blauer-bund.de/page.php?...&nid=499&rub=3
Bei der Artillerie sollte ab 1985 die Erhöhung der Geschützzahlen von 6 auf 9 Rohre und Verminderung um eine Feuerbatterie das vorhandene und durch Zulauf der Feldhaubitze 70 vermehrte Gerät ohne personellen Mehraufwand optimal nutzen. Das Rohrbataillon einer Division wuchs dabei auf 36 Geschütze an. Mit freiwerdenden älteren Kampfpanzern, Mannschaftstransportwagen M 113 und den Feldhaubitzen 105 mm der Korpsartillerie wurden die sechs Heimatschutzkommandos der Wehrbereiche zu "schweren" Kampfverbänden umstrukturiert (Panzerbataillon aktiv, Panzerbataillon teilaktiv, Jägerbataillon MTW, Jägerbataillon LKW, Feldartilleriebataillon 105 mm plus selbstständige Kompanien). Diese neuen teilaktiven Heimatschutzbrigaden Nr. 51 bis 56 ...

1993 .. gone !
"Feldhaubitzen dieses Kalibers befinden sich bei der Bundeswehr aber seit Anfang der neunziger Jahre nicht mehr im aktiven Truppendienst.
http://www.panzerbaer.de/guns/bw_fh_105mm_j.htm

Most likely with "Heeresstruktur V (ab 1993)"
https://www.blauer-bund.de/page.php?...&nid=499&rub=3
the units where disbanded/merged and the equipment removed from service, like e.g.
" FArtBtl.515 Kellinghusen LeFH-105mm A2 1993 Zusammen mit FArtBtl.185 Umbenennung in PzArtBtl.515
("merged and renamed to Armored Arty Bat." means they got M109 most likely) http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz...ne/ari/ari.htm

So I would put the end date, if you want to model the reserve units at least somewhat, to 31.12.1992 or 30.6.1993 with some leeway for reorganisation.



1/ .. sorry, what are you trying to tell me - that you're going to keep that german names? I surely won't object to this, but maybe you want things to be consistent, and switch all the "Mtn. Scouts" and "Mtn. Snipers" to "Gebirgsjaeger" or, as there actually are(!) units named "Gebirgsaufklaerer" (or "Gebirgsaufkl."), to the latter!
http://www.soldatentreff.de/modules....read&tid=23792

2/ Sorry, bad wording. Was in a hurry. Apart from that, see 1/

Re: obat44 - West Germany
 

Thanks for the info on the 105. There was nothing anywhere on that in English and I tried every search combination I could think of. I had tentatively made the cut off 1996 but will adjust it back to June 1993.

I'm also still trying to find something other than a Wiki quote about the 155 towed arty OOS date. Understand that removing towed arty from the OOB means picklist changes which is fine, but I want to be rock solid on the dates before doing that because it's a PITA.

As for German names as I explained I have and will keep some but I'm not going to turn it into the winSPWW2 German OOB. The German language , as you well know, likes to string words together forming words much longer than the game likes and that in itself is one problem but it's the abbreviations that make it difficult in some case to ensure they are clear as to their meaning and I'm debating if "GebJg Spaeher" is clear to the average gamer ( it's clear to me but that's irrelevant, abbreviations are always clear to the one making them )so it may end up Germlish "GebJg Scout"

I also have an issue with one of your other statements

there are NO ATGM in any PzGr section in the German OOB...none. There is one ( 1 ) in a Para support section that makes up one part of para platoons from 1996 on. Therefore there are no platoons that have more than one ATGM per platoon and there is only one platoon like that

Other than that most of the issues have been dealt with along with the manpower issues in the MRAV formations



Don