Re: OT: Stop IE
 

You would need to case name which I didn�t provide.

On our website (s), we no longer link to third party sites and we do not hyperlink to third party sites via email. We are required to meet the standard and any site we �use� must meet the standard or we can not use it. We had to redo two large sites because of this, along with many smaller ones. And no revisions can be published untill they have been reviewed for compliance, which is a real pain when you are trying to rush some content onto the server and it has to wait for review.

These cases are being heard as civil cases and as such are open to wide latitude as to the intent of the law. Depending on the state, the jury may more or less legislate from the jury room. We settled a case where some content that we only linked to was in question. Legal wouldn�t risk a jury award. I should add that from what I have seen, these things settle for small change. But even that can really ruin the day for someone with little or no income. Many of our contractors have been impacted as well as some of our equipment providers, because we were referring consumers to their sites via links in emails.

It�s not just web pages, it almost anything you can think of. Toilet stall widths, Ramp inclines, wall receptacle locations, types of doorknobs. And the really bad part is that most cases settle for cash, out of court, with no corrections being required in the settlement. It has become all about getting some quick cash.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Why not just do what large sites like most of microsoft do or most online game publishers do, and all extrenal links start by opening a pop up box saying you are no visiting a page outside of <site> we do not take responsibility for the content.

I am all for making sites good, and work for disabled people, but there comes to a point when people are just people and are trying to squeeze some pennys for miner flaws.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Because such messages probably have no legal standing. Take for instance those 'Left at own risk' signs, you cannot remove all liability just by putting a sign up. You can limit it certainly, but not remove it.

You choose to put the link there, you are at least slightly responsible for it.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Never under estimate laywers (and people who will will use them for any excuse to sue)
Do to some wording in NAFTA, you could theoreticcaly sell sell plutonium laced baby food, naturally it would be banned and other things, but you could then turn around and sue for lost profits and win. (oh selling from one country to another.
So if Canada banned IE, given ie is integrated in to windows< microsoft could sue for llost future profits and win. Courtsy of the US lawers who created that that loop hole. i can't remeber the wording but it has something to do misapropriation, and its arbitrated outside the courts behind closed doors.
PS i have dialu p given how much i use the interent, and what i use it for i can't justify the expense. So switched from ie to get faster browseing, funny so MS pges download real fast, thier blank.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Well as has been proved many times IE isn't integrated into Windows. They claim it is, but it isn't. I can't remember the details but it involved faked desktop screen grabs from different machines. Actually thinking about it that was earlier versions, by now it probably is or at least much closer.

And as many US lawyers have found to their shock, US laws don't actually apply outside the US. I know shocking isn't it?

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Howard "Schlock Mercenary" Tayler is now officially on the Firefox bandwagon.

If you haven't switched yet, go to his site and click on the switch link in today's news. You'll get a great new browser and help keep Sgt. Schlock's Ovalkwik addiction going strong.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

In my profession (real estate) we use many online resources. I am the computer tech for our real estate board. ALL of the online resources require IE for our realtors to use them. Online forms and such that we use will not function with anything else. I've tried.

So from the point of view of business applications, IE isn't going anywhere.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Blame poor web site designers that do not design for standards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Some of my workplace's applications are designed to use IE. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Is there anyway to actually delete IE. I have tried and it just pops back up, like trying to kill a virus.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Yes, actually. This solution costs money for the program though...

http://www.litepc.com/

Be aware that uninstalling IE means some functionality, such as Windows Update, will be lost.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Even the StopIE website does not recommend full removal of IE - just that you don't use it as your browser.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

It's probably a bad idea to try to delete IE, seeing as it's used by the Windows shell for the filesystem explorer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

IE is not so evil... I use it all the time any my system has been safe and secure. I don't get why so many poeple hate IE?

Its the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

I didn't know that 'sliced bread' was a Microsoft product. What will Gates steal next? Ipod!!!

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

01000010011010010110110001101100001000000100011101 10000101110
10001100101011100110010000001100011011011000110000 10110100101
10110101110011001000000111010001101111001000000110 11110111011
10110111000100000011000010110110001101100001000000 11101000110
10000110000101110100001000000110100001100001011100 11001000000
11000100110010101100101011011100010000001100011011 10010011001
01011000010111010001100101011001000010110000100000 01100001011
01110011001000010000001100001011011000110110000100 00001110100
01101000011000010111010000100000011010000110000101 11001100100
00001111001011001010111010000100000011101000110111 10010000001
10001001100101001000000110001101110010011001010110 00010111010
00110010101100100001011100010000000100000001000100 10010000110
11110111011100100000011001000110000101110010011001 01001000000
11101000110100001100101011110010010000001101100011 00001011110
01001000000110001101101100011000010110100101101101 00100000011
10100011011110010000001101101011110010010000001101 00101100100
01100101011000010111001100100000011000100110010101 10011001101
11101110010011001010010000001001001001000000110010 10111011001
10010101110010001000000110010101110110011001010110 11100010000
00110101101101110011001010111011100100000010010010 01000000110
10000110000101100100001000000111010001101000011001 01001000000
11010010110010001100101011000010010000100100010001 00000001011
01001000000100001001101001011011000110110000100000 01000111011
0000101110100011001010111001100101110

Translate (Note it is all one continues line... no spaces)

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Well, it�s not a binary number.........

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

01001001001000000111010001101000011011110111010101 100111011
01000011101000010000001001001001000000111011101101 111011101
01011011000110010000100000011010110110010101100101 011100000
01000000110111101110101011101000010000001101111011 001100010
00000111010001101000011010010111001100100000011101 000110111
10111000001101001011000110010000001100110011011110 111001000
10000001100001001000000111011101101000011010010110 110001100
10100101100001000000110001001110101011101000010000 001101001
01101101001000000110001101101111011011010110100101 101110011
00111001000000110001001100001011000110110101100100 001000011
01000010100000110100001010010010010010000001101100 011010010
11010110110010100100000011010010110111001110100011 001010111
00100110111001100101011101000010000001100101011110 000111000
00110110001101111011100100110010101110010001011000 010000001
00100100100000011100000110010101110010011100110110 111101101
11001100001011011000110110001111001001000000110100 001100001
01110110011001010010000001110011011001010110001101 110101011
10010011010010111010001111001001000000111001101100 101011101
00011101000110100101101110011001110111001100100000 011100110
11001010111010000100000011101000110111100100000011 010000110
10010110011101101000001011000010000001100001011011 100110010
00010000001001001001000000110100001100001011101100 110010100
10000001101110011001010111011001100101011100100010 000001101
00001100001011001000010000001101111011011100110010 100100000
01110011011010010110111001100111011011000110010100 100000011
10000011100100110111101100010011011000110010101101 101001011
10000011010000101000001101000010100100000100100000 011011000
11011110111010000100000011011110110011000100000011 100000110
01010110111101110000011011000110010100100000011011 110110111
00010000001110011011011110010000001101101011000010 110111001
11100100100000011001000110100101100110011001100111 001001100
10101101110011101000010000001100110011011110111001 001110101
01101101011100110010000001100011011011110110110101 110000011
01100011000010110100101101110001000000110000101100 010011011
11011101010111010000100000010010010100010100100000 011000100
11001010110100101101110011001110010000001100010011 000010110
01000010110000100000011000100111010101110100001000 000110100
10110011000100000011110010110111101110101001000000 110000101
11001101101011001000000111011101101000011110010010 000001100
10001101111001000000101100101001111010101010010000 001101110
01101111011101000010000001101100011010010110101101 100101001
00000011010010111010000101100001000000110100001100 001011100
10011001000110110001111001001000000110000101101110 011110010
11011110110111001100101001000000110000101100011011 101000111
01010110000101101100011011000111100100100000011010 110110111
00110111101110111011100110010000001100001011100000 110000101
11001001110100001000000110011001110010011011110110 110100100
00001110011011000010111100101101001011011100110011 100100000
01110100011010000110010100100000011100110110000101 101101011
00101001000000110001101110010011000010111000000100 000011011
00011010010110101101100101001011000010000001101001 011101000
01000000110010001101111011001010111001101101110011 101000010
00000111001101110101011100000111000001101111011100 100111010
00010000001000011010100110101001100100000011011110 111001000
10000001010011011101000110000101101110011001000110 000101110
01001100100011100110010111000101110001011100010000 001100001
01110011001000000110100101100110001000000111010001 101000011
00001011101000010000001100101011101100110010101101 110001000
00011000010110011001100110011001010110001101110100 011100110
01000000110110101101111011100110111010000100000011 100000110
01010110111101110000011011000110010100100001000011 010000101
00000110100001010010000010111001100100000011001100 110111101
11001000100000011100110111000001111001011101110110 000101110
01001100101001000000110000101101110011001000010000 001100101
01110110011001010111001001111001011101000110100001 101001011
01110011001110010000001100101011011000111001101100 101001011
10001011100010111000100000011000110110111101101101 011001010
01000000110111101101110001000010010000001101001011 001100010
00000110011001101001011100100110010101100110011011 110111100
00010000001100111011011110111010000100000011000010 010000000
11100100111001001001010010000001110011011010000110 000101110
01001100101001000000110111101100110001000000111010 001101000
01100101001000000110110101100001011100100110101101 100101011
10100001011000010000001100100011011110010000001110 000011001
01011011110111000001101100011001010010000001110010 011001010
11000010110110001101100011110010010000001110100011 010000110
10010110111001101011001000000111010001101000011000 010111010
00010000001110000011001010110111101110000011011000 110010100
10000001110111011010010110110001101100001000000110 111001101
11101110100001000000111001101110100011000010111001 001110100
00100000011101000110111100100000011010000110000101 100011011
01011001000000111010001101000011000010111010000100 000011010
01011011100111001101110100011001010110000101100100 001000000
11011110110011000100000010010010100010100111111000 011010000
10100000110100001010011100110110010101100101001000 000111100
10110000100100000011000010110110001101100001000000 110110001
10000101110100011001010111001000100001

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Um, we're communicating in binary now? But yeah, I don't really recommed IE, since when I turned the security features to full, I couldn't access anything (except microsoft.com. Strange that), and at anything less than full, I was just getting plowed with viruses and spyware, even with my firewall at full power. Firefox ftw!

Sorry. Too much time on the WoW forums.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

It is only because I had no internet over the weekend that I didn't post this sooner, but.....

Fyron, you keep (kept) going on about w3c "standards". To my knowledge, a "standard" is something that works with the majority of some thing or other. Right now, IE has an 85%+ market share, as I inferred from other posts here, so therefore IE IS the standard. Make a website compatible with IE and you make sure over 80% of the web-browsing community can view it without problems. Sure, there are more web browsers out there - but together they can't hold a candle to IE's user base.

I'm not a fan of Microsoft myself, and I much prefer Firefox, but Fyron, you're just spewing out your blind hatred for Microsoft here. And like CW said in the first reply, don't say it's not just spewing your hatred because this entire thread has everything to do with blind hatred of the big M.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

The w3c standards are implemented fully by all browsers except IE, and partially by Opera last I checked, but that may have been fixed by now. Therefore, they work with an overwhelming majority of browsers. Just because Microsoft now gives a big f* you to the rest of the web development world does not make the w3c standards any less than the standards they are, and neither does IE's large but decreasing market share... Technical standards are defined as what a recognized industry group declares them to be, nothing else. Microsoft even recognizes the w3c standards as the web technology standards and was on its way to making IE compliant with them. They stopped development of IE 4 years ago when their market share reached insane levels, primarily due to strong arm tactics over any particular technical competence. IE may currently be the de facto Windows standard browser, but it does not define the standards for web technologies.

This has absolutely nothing to do with blind hatred. It has to do with well-founded, insightful, knowledgable hatred. I have absolutely no blind hatred for Microsoft. Please do not be so prejudiced to believe that anyone that dislikes a product of Microsoft is blind. Thank you.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

il translate my above post...

I thought I would keep out of this topic for a while, but im coming back!

I like internet explorer, I personally have security settings set to high, and I have never had one single problem.

A lot of people on so many diffrent forums complain about IE being bad, but if you ask why do YOU not like it, hardly anyone actually knows apart from saying the same crap like, it doesnt support CSS or Standards... as if that even affects most people!

As for spyware and everything else... come on! if firefox got a 99% share of the market, do people really think that people will not start to hack that instead of IE?

see ya all later!


---

anyway about your last post, you keep saying all this, but since post number one I made, I just do not agree and you keep going around in circles.

I would now like to ask you a question.

How does IE not supporting W3C actually affect you, and why is that actually bad?

If you do not like IE, it is simple, use Firefox and stop all the complaints!

And a little correction to one of my earlier posts where I said about why I do not program for w3c...

As far as I think, I simply create webpages, I want a big target, I program how I have been doing for years and like to do it the best, I program and make sure it is compatible with IE because then I know that nearly all of my customers will be able to see it, I then have a look from mozilla and some other browsers to see if the site works, and 99% of the time it does, or I make a couple of changes, I do not go out of my way to make changes though.

I want a new standard called IES (internet explorer standard) for sites that are compatible with IE, other browsers can live up to it if they want, but to date it is the largest standard with many websites supporting it!

According to Alexa results of websites most visited, the top ones are (in order):

www.yahoo.com
www.msn.com
www.google.com
www.ebay.com
www.passport.net

According to the w3c validator site, NOT ONE site is valid! and yet each site works perfectly in IE.

Please can you give a few reasons if you had to write a letter to the Director/CEO's of these companies as to why they should go to these standards whilst there website works on every browser that they want it to?

It makes no sense to me why anyone should use a standard that does not actually improve anything and using does not give any improvements apart from being able to say I am W3C compliant, and if a site can work 100% fine in all browsers without using it.

If IE came out tommorow and was W3C compliant, I can not see a reason why everyone would start using it.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Of course, but without the scourge of activeX, it is much less likely that they will accomplish the exploits they have made with IE. MS should use their considerable muscle for good, and deprecate ActiveX in favor of something more secure (isn't .NET supposed to be the answer here? It has much the same capabilities and, from what I've heard, is much more secure).

No browser, security measure, operating system, or any other software will protect a stupid user from himself. There already is spyware running around in XPI form to infect Mozilla browsers. Some of it actually simply uses XPI as a springboard to launch those IE exploits which don't even require IE to be running. None of it, however, installs itself without user intervention.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

"How does IE not supporting W3C actually affect you, and why is that actually bad?"

It slows down my development of web sites because I constantly have to remove features that are unusable due to lack of IE support. I can't just develop a standards-compliant site and expect IE to render it. It very negatively affects me because of this increased development time and by virtue of stifling excellent new time saving web technologies. So yes, the lack of 100% w3c compliance does affect me, and all web developers that use more than front page. Of course, the front page users tend to create web sites with some gibberish laced into the html, but that is another issue entirely.

"If you do not like IE, it is simple, use Firefox and stop all the complaints!"

I will not stop exercising my right to protest. I shall continue pointing out the problems of IE at every opportunity so that more people will stop using it, eventually forcing MS to fix IE to stop leaking market share. I am doing my part to make the world of web development better.

"According to the w3c validator site, NOT ONE site is valid! and yet each site works perfectly in IE."

They make the mistake of arrogance, yes.

"Please can you give a few reasons if you had to write a letter to the Director/CEO's of these companies as to why they should go to these standards whilst there website works on every browser that they want it to?"

Industry standards make the world go round. Standards insure interoperability and compatibility. Your PC would cost $8,000 if it were not for companies following industry standards for computer hardware, thus allowing parts from a plethora of companies to work together seamlessly. Your house would have burnt down years ago if electronics manufacturers did not follow the IEEE standards for the electrical power grid, or even the builder of your home. You would not have those fancy USB and Firewire ports that make connecting peripherals to your PC a hell of a lot easier without industry standards. Yes, they were invented by MS and Apple, respectively, but they both have IEEE standards specifications. Following standards is the morally correct thing to do.

Following the w3c standards allows the site to be future-proofed. They are designed in such a way that the standards of 5 years ago are a subset of the current standards. There is no need to go back and fix web sites because of this. This makes the site easier to maintain, which saves time and money. If you take an 8 year old site designed for IE 4 or NS 4, chances are it will no longer work in modern browsers (unless it only used the most primitive tags). This (and cross-platform support) was the entire point of starting the w3c standards in the first place.

Further, the HTML/etc. proposed by the standards is designed to be easier to use and maintain than older methods. Should we not use CSS and go back to font tags et all? This is a prime example of standards making web development and maintenance easier and faster.

In my opinion, excluding 1 user in any arena due to sloppiness is morally reprehensible. 100% user base should be the target, not 99%. This is what adhering to standards allows in general. w3c is no exception.

"It makes no sense to me why anyone should use a standard that does not actually improve anything and using does not give any improvements..."

BS. Max-width is a beautiful tag. So are many other CSS specifications not supported by IE. The w3c standard web languages contain many powerful mechanisms that provide added functionality and/or provide for faster, easier ways to code and manage web pages. The advancing technologies proffered by w3c have always been designed to increase the flexibility and power of web languages. Plus the whole standard thing illustrated above.

Some good reading for those with an open mind:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&a...=Google+Search

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Okay, can this topic die already? I think you've beat this topic to death already. Wilhil is making good sites, that work in all browsers, including IE which unfortunatly most people use. I believe everyone here agrees with you, Fyron, in that IE is buggy, and does not follow standards to the letter.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

lol, i want this topic to die, but as long as it is here I feel forced to reply and get my point across!

"Following the w3c standards allows the site to be future-proofed. They are designed in such a way that the standards of 5 years ago are a subset of the current standards. There is no need to go back and fix web sites because of this. This makes the site easier to maintain, which saves time and money. If you take an 8 year old site designed for IE 4 or NS 4, chances are it will no longer work in modern browsers (unless it only used the most primitive tags). This (and cross-platform support) was the entire point of starting the w3c standards in the first place."

I can access sites in IE that are much older....

look, I am not against standards at all, I just think that this standard, as a excuse for why you do not like IE is just such a bad example...

And yes I agree that IE does not follow standards to the letter, personally not buggy, but what I am trying to say is just because it does not follow standards to the letter does not translate to bad...

"Of course, but without the scourge of activeX, it is much less likely that they will accomplish the exploits they have made with IE. MS should use their considerable muscle for good, and deprecate ActiveX in favor of something more secure (isn't .NET supposed to be the answer here? It has much the same capabilities and, from what I've heard, is much more secure). "

correct, .net controls are like activex but much better, personally I thought activex was a wonderful idea, if you understand it from a programming level, it sounds like a good idea, it is a way to run propour applications on a computer and display controls in a web page, it is just bad that a lot of people abused it, and people installed bad controls by clicking ok without reading, but again, if people read through security options, you can actually disable this option.

I personally since the first post see why any site should go for this when as I said, all the top websites do not even use them! we are talking here about websites that have usually been optomised to do everything quicker...

"Industry standards make the world go round. Standards insure interoperability and compatibility. Your PC would cost $8,000 if it were not for companies following industry standards for computer hardware, thus allowing parts from a plethora of companies to work together seamlessly. Your house would have burnt down years ago if electronics manufacturers did not follow the IEEE standards for the electrical power grid, or even the builder of your home. You would not have those fancy USB and Firewire ports that make connecting peripherals to your PC a hell of a lot easier without industry standards. Yes, they were invented by MS and Apple, respectively, but they both have IEEE standards specifications. Following standards is the morally correct thing to do."

Just one thing to say there.... you are correct about in industry how some standards reduce prices due to interoperability, but it would not cost 8k otherwise! and even still, unlike a computer that would probably cost more without standards, W3C is not enforced anywhere and there is no brakedown in the internet, there is no blablabla... everythign works fine, it is like me saying a standard where everyone has to walk on their right... it would just be a nightmare to enfoce, an you would not see a improvment, just a nightmare to try and do! but everything would work fine before the rule would be enforced, and after, meaning that nothing was acctually gained from it...

This is a very stupid thing for me to say now, I do not code like this, but I want to show something..

having the following

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> test &lt;b&gt; hello &lt;/b&gt; </pre><hr />

would make in ALL browsers say test, then in bold hello,

the following :

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>&lt;html&gt;
&lt;head&gt;
&lt;/head&gt;
&lt;body&gt;
&lt;font size = "4"&gt;test &lt;b&gt; hello &lt;/b&gt;&lt;/font&gt;
&lt;/body&gt;
&lt;/html&gt;
</pre><hr />

now then, I am missing a lot like I could do css and a hell of a load more.... infact all of this extra stuff actualyl makes the code more so if anything, it would take longer to load on people with a poor connection. I know this is a bad excuse, but I am just trying to show that infact some standards are meant to be a standard, and that is all, speed is not actually a issue if you look at the way they are designed, if I had to create one from scratch I would do things like

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> &lt;start&gt;
test &lt;b&gt; hello &lt;/b&gt;
&lt;/start&gt;
</pre><hr />

and have a real language optimised for speed...

""According to the w3c validator site, NOT ONE site is valid! and yet each site works perfectly in IE."

They make the mistake of arrogance, yes."

So you call the site actually working in every browser and the fact that they have no need to follow a stndard is arrogance?

I really cant be bothered to go on saying more, I have so much more to say! it is just so boring saying the same thing over and over again.

anyway... can a mod lock this topic, it is getting so boring..... I am personally not going to make any more replys here no matter how much I disagree with what else gets said!

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

As any one stopped and considered the possibity that Microsft does not want Exploder to be a safe secure browser? Think about it, without a clear and obstructed path for viruses and other nasty programs to enter our computers, companies such symatic would loose profittablity.

Lets face it, spyware, adware, virus, and the like are a nessarry evil, as viewed from the Microsoft position, because they sustain a market dedicated to preventing them.

Now if you suddenly removed the threat, then there would be no need for the security and the anti virus software companies would begin to fail.

The real crux of this debate is about motivation for not complaying with the standard and not that they should or could, but rather that they simply won't because to do so would undermine the entire anti-virus software industry. An industry that Microsoft is heavily invested in.

Why kill the very thing that keeps you in the black?

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

A follow up what Fyron posted about MS and standards.

It has been my forgone conclusion that Microsoft seldom if ever, follows any standard that it did not create. So it can be said without sarcasim that if Microsoft does not set the standard, there is no standard. And Microsoft will never comply with any standard that it does not recognize as a Microsoft created standard. That per Microsft Standard Operating Proceedure.

Microsoft will not yeild to the standard because they want it to fail. After it fails they will buy, adopt, invent, create, a new standard that looks an awfully lot like the old non Microsoft standard and bill it as their own knowning full well that it is far less effective than the old standard. A clear cut example of MOTOS.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

ahh, I dont beleive the is true, I know I said I would not reply again, but this is not exactly the same topic about w3c... anyway, I do not beleive this is true...

It is bad I agree about viruses and the whole dark side, but there will always be people wanting to make a name for themselves, and it is just unfortunate, IE's bigness is its downfall, I hate this comparisson, but why did the terrorists strike the world trade center isntead of some house far away...? You always want to target the biggest possible audiance with as little effort.

If I write a virus, would I target something with a small user share or a big one? as I said, if mozilla became really big, I am sure we will start seing holes there.

I do agree with you about how if this was to close, security companies may start to fail, but then again, p2p, IM and loads of other areas exist where people could get viruses, and remember it is not usually about hacking or security, but just money, look how many good or real programs come with bundled applications?

I think there will always be a need for security, but at the same time I do not think it is a conspiracy!

now that has been said! I am done again on this topic, but I may repond to posts like that which are not about the same thing over and over again...

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

MODERATOR NOTE:

Fyron, as the originator of the thread, is really the only person who can request that it be locked. However Moderators are free to use their own discresion in such matters and frankly I can see no need to lock a thread that has not violated the terms of service or use as outlined by Shrapnel.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

Let�s clear the air a little. MS is a major supporter of w3c. IE6 greatly predates the w3c standards, so does not and can not fully support the rule set. IE7 has been legally castrated by several foreign governments (one of them an illegal cartel under US law) not to mention several years delayed, so who knows what it will support when it is released.

In the real world, you code for IE if you want to make money. That�s the way it has been, is now, and will be for the near future. The OS community has of late begun using w3c as another tool to attack MS. This is their right, but one day they too will need to leave the reverse economy of the university and go out into the real world to earn money. And out there, MS is where the money is.

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

CSS is the most important part of designing websites, from several angles.
Proper usage of CSS reduces the the amount of HTML used in a file, makes easier to read documents and helps seperate design from content.

Usually you reduce the bandwidth of a website by using CSS because the CSS file is only called upon once and then cached for use with other pages in the website, like reusing an image on multiple pages - its loaded once from the website, then read from cache there-after.

HTML code can be kept very clean through the use of CSS. It also allows designs to be radically updated without even touching the HTML. It something well worth looking into and working with.

As for the issue of designing websites for a particular webbrowser - I agree that websites should be designed for the widest target audience. Designing and building on features which exist only in IE limits your target audience. Designing browsers that parse incorrect HTML only breeds problems down the line. There are many positive things you can do when designing a website to facilitate accessibility, and if you are a good webdesigner you should advise these things to clients.

There are laws in most western countries about accessibility. As a business (any business in the UK) you must take steps to makes your website accessible to disabled people.

BTW, consider this CSS example as improving efficiency in a HTML document (no external CSS sheet required).

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>&lt;style&gt;
p { font-size: 20pt; }
h2 { font-size: 40pt;
&lt;/style&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;Joy&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;Joy&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;Joy&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;Joy&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
</pre><hr />

compared to:
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
&lt;h2&gt;&lt;font size="11"&gt;Joy&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;font size="7"&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;&lt;font size="11"&gt;Joy&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;font size="7"&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;&lt;font size="11"&gt;Joy&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;font size="7"&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;h2&gt;&lt;font size="11"&gt;Joy&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/h2&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;font size="7"&gt;Hello.&lt;/p&gt;
</pre><hr />

If you wanted to change the paragraph font size to 10pt, which example would be easiest?
Which example takes up less bytes when uploaded to a website?

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

LOL! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Stop IE
 

"I can access sites in IE that are much older...."

As I said, some can be accessed, but some sites written for old browsers before standardization began occuring do not render properly in modern browsers, due to using tags that are no longer valid. Future-proofing is a good thing.

"look, I am not against standards at all, I just think that this standard, as a excuse for why you do not like IE is just such a bad example..."

Thanks for dismissing my cogent arguments as mere "excuses" for... whatever it is you think they are excuses for. The lack of standards support is only part of why I do not like IE, but it is the only part that still affects me greatly when I am not using it as my browser.

"And yes I agree that IE does not follow standards to the letter, personally not buggy, but what I am trying to say is just because it does not follow standards to the letter does not translate to bad... "

I strongly disagree. It's lack of 100% standards compliance is bad for web designers and the Internet in general. Would you use photoshop if it made JPGs that could only be read in Photoshop without errors? No. Standards are vital... A valid HTML page should look the same in every browser without resorting to hacks, just the same as any other file format.

"So you call the site actually working in every browser and the fact that they have no need to follow a stndard is arrogance? "

They have every need to follow the standards, for reasons stated in previous posts. It is indeed arrogance that allows them to ignore them... Maybe apathy or ignorance, but not good any way you cut it.

"W3C is not enforced anywhere and there is no brakedown in the internet"

Please reread my posts to see why never finishing w3c compliance is a problem for the Internet.

"I could do css and a hell of a load more.... infact all of this extra stuff actualyl makes the code more so if anything, it would take longer to load on people with a poor connection."

You have it backwards. CSS reduces load times because style information is only downloaded once for the entire site. All subsequent page requests get vastly smaller html streams. CSS is great for people with slow connection speeds. Further, it is necessary for good coding style. Font tags are abhorrid.

"some standards are meant to be a standard, and that is all, speed is not actually a issue if you look at the way they are designed"

w3c standards are designed for speed. html and doctype tags are trivial in size compared to the rest of the file. Not even a fraction of a percent... You do not have to close tags such as p and td in the w3c html standard, which serves to marginally reduce file sizes... How is this set of standards not designed to increase browsing speed? Your example of a page with just a bit of text does not reasonably represent real web pages.

=0=

Thermo, the lack of updates finishing the w3c standards compliance was part of my argument. If they would stop integrating the browser into the OS and make it a standalone app again, maybe they would have less to be sued about. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I truly hope that IE 7 supports the standards 100%.

You can maintain full w3c compliance and have your site working perfectly in IE due to the partial support. There is no excuse to violate w3c standards. It is terrible programming style.

"The OS community has of late begun using w3c as another tool to attack MS."

Ah yes, your typical Microsoft on a pedastal position.

=0=

"as I said, if mozilla became really big, I am sure we will start seing holes there."

The main difference is that they will be patched. Even in XP SP2, there are still at least 2 dozen severe holes in IE that allow a malicious coder to gain root access to your machine even when IE is not actively running! They are all well documented and have been so for years. And to hell with all other users not using XP... This is why I always recommend blocking IE from accessing the net at the firewall level... IE is fundamentally dangerous because it runs in kernel mode, so any security bug is automatically escalated in severity. There is no reason for a web browser to run in kernel mode. It is just bad programming any way you look at it. The high security mode can not fix the fundamental flaw of a user level app running as a kernel level app.

Re: OT: Stop IE