Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

/me can just imagine it now... After defeating Santa Claus over Christmas, Jesus takes on Mohammed in the ONE-ON-ONE ULTIMATE PROPHET SHOWDOWN!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
edit: hmm, perhaps we should bring this up over in the Dominions forum... throw in a few Pretender-Gods to the mix and we can REALLY have a party! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

It seems a little hypocritical for the Malaysian PM to say that it's not representative of the Muslim world, or that most Muslims have avoided denunciations of the West, Jews, etc., when the people of his own country are marching in the streets shouting "Long live Islam. Destroy Denmark. Destroy Israel. Destroy George Bush. Destroy America." (Also quoted from your article. Someone read it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) Seems he doesn't have a leg to stand upon when his own people are doing that...

Also rather odd, since as far as I know, American newspapers haven't published the cartoons...but I guess "Destroy America" is just the standard refrain nowadays. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

I wonder how the Muslim world would react if Christians started marching in the streets shouting "Destroy Islam, Destroy Mecca, Destroy Medina, Destroy the Muslims!"

The point is, you do see some Muslims marching the streets spouting off their violent propaganda. You don't see any other religions doing that.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

"Why don't moderate muslims who don't like the violence stand up against those who are causing it?"

Because they would be killed.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

all the people of Malaysia?

No, but what they do see is a very christian president bush and PM blair (Bush has made several references to being inspired by God regarding his actions wrt the middle east) actively MAKING WAR on middle eastern countries. I mean come on, what's more intimidating? A bunch of angry civilians marching and shouting 12000 miles away, or a couple of nuclear superpowers stomping around, blowing [censored] up and killing people by the thousand in the country next door.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Good point there Dogscoff. We all know that there is absolutely no evidence what so ever that President Bush and PM Blair are on a holly war in the middle east. But the fanic radicalized holly warriors of Ala might believe in such tripe.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I never said all the people of Malaysia. But if even a significant number of the people are marching in the streets, it is still hypocritical.

Granted, that explains the distrust and perhaps hatred of the US and Britain. But does it explain the hatred and denunciation of Jews and the West in general? For example, the French government was adamantly opposed to the war in Iraq. West /= US. West = Canada + US + Most of Europe + Australia.

Perhaps they think that all of the West is the enemy and wants to kill them all and destroy their religion. Thing is, if they do believe this, that doesn't matter. Ignorance is no excuse in any country. It is up to the people to discover the truth behind a matter, rather than exploding at every opportunity.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

How can any of us truly understand the minds of those for whom violence and outrage has become a way of life unless we have walked in their shoes?

I wouldn't not excuse such behavior regardless of circumstance, but understanding it might be the first step toward stopping it.

I really don't like to make Nasi comparissons here but honestly this is the best case for this arguement. In Nazi Germany the Nazi Party used the Jews as the glue that held the nation together under Hitler. Hate the Jews, hate them to the core, and keep on hating them no matter what. This menatlity gave power to Hitler and he used it like any good Facist to maintain the focus of his people on hating the jews to preserve his controll over them while he ran the country into a devistating war that ultimately resulted in a horrific end for the German people.

I see the leaders of these muslim countries, their religious leaders, and Imans all doing the same thing that Hitler and his Facist Nazi party did. They focus the hatred of their people against a common enemy in order to maintain power.

The only way to combat this is with TRUTH. Unfortunetly any one cought trying to tell the truth is quickly murdered.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I hereby invoke Godwin's law . But since we're playing "Who's the Hitler?", can I have a go? I love this game.

Here's one for ya- first suitable google hit I came across. http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articl...itler-Bush.htm

(Not that I necessarily agree with everything in the article above, I'm just making the point that anyone can play the Hitler card.)

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Well, it is a free country, so people can say more or less anything they want. Let’s look at his first statement. Bush was elected by a majority of the Electoral College. This is an undisputable fact. It is the way it has always been done in this country. It was a close election but there have been close ones in the past. The difference was that in the past the defeated candidate has politely accepted the results and for the good of the country, moved on. Gore did not put the good of the country above his own ambition.



While Bush has not been a very good president, he has not been a bad one either. Everyone forgets that he has defended this country from the likes of Bin Hidden (his new name). The big news of late is NSA intercepts of overseas calls. Well duah……Here’s your sign. WTF do these people think the NSA has been doing for the last twenty years. Let’s take a look at the last two administrations. Which one spent 8 years trying to change the definition/meaning of one of the amendment of the constitution so as to take away a guaranteed right? They didn’t use the constitutional tool provided for doing this, they tried to do it by using the back door. Exactly what Hitler did when he disarmed the private citizens of Germany. Which administration used its “paramilitary” forces to kill the most of its own citizens? Citizens that for right or wrong had decided to arm themselves against just exactly that kind of government action. Citizens that the government slandered publicly as an excuse for murdering them. Citizens who either never got their day in court or only after being treated worse than we treat foreign terrorist today. Sound anything like Hitler? You bet it does. All the while we were attacking our own; we were shooting missiles at Iraq every time the Washington Post front paged a story about the strange goings on at the White House. No wonder they hated us! Who let them get away with bombing ships and embassies without taking immediate and visible action in the face of a clear and present danger? But instead, decided to do nothing, or to shoot some more SLCM at Baghdad. It’s no wonder that they became bolder with the passage of time. Hitler went on the radio and flat out lied to his people. I seem to recall a president shaking his finger in my face from the TV as he told a bold out and out lie.


The point here is that most presidents have an agenda that is counter to about half of the population. And some well versed academic will publish some well written words that bend the truth to match his needs. Hitler is an easy comparison. For all of his wrongs, the biggest was that he lost. Stalin and Mao won, while Pol Pot [sp] hid his better than the rest. It’s not so much about what a president does or does not do. The several hundred fine people elected to duty on the Hill and the thousands that “make” policy from over at State should carry more of the blame. We are in a catch 22. The Arab world needs someone to hate and blame their Islamic misfortune on. So they pick Israel and the USofA. Not realistically much we can do about that. Personally, I would like to see the west start a new Manhattan project to move the world away from carbon fuel and into hydrogen and cold fusion. Then the Islamic world could keep their oil and go quietly back to the Stone Age.

As to the author, I think that the time of these people would be better spent blogging about the exportation of jobs and wealth. Or perhaps the stacking of the Supreme Court. The 60’s are gone, but some leftovers see this war as a chance to regain past prestige. They fail to realize that this one is much different than the last one. In Iraq, everyone volunteered. There is no draft. In Iraq, poor people of color are not doing the majority of the fighting. It’s middleclass whitebread America filling out the ranks. In Iraq there are not 500,000 troops and casualties are not even a percentage point of what they were in SEA. The major news agencies would like to keep the war on the front page, and it is running up an awful bill that we will have to pay. But most Americans are more worried about their jobs, the cost of energy and who will be the next American Idol. It, 2006 and the sixties are long gone.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Well, news is pretty much focussed on the bad things.
So it sounds pretty bad from over here.

Can we get a list of the good things?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Not sure what you are asking for. List of good things in Iraq?

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I am sorry Dogscoff, but I don't understand how you took my comments and connected them to this tripe? I was not making a political post, or calling any one person a Hitler, I was just stating my opinion that the people in power in the muslim world use hatred to stay in power. A tactic that was used very effectively by the Facist Nazi Party. If Bush were truly a Hitler, then why hasn't he acted like one by having all of his enemies either jailed, killed, or both? I can only speculate that the people who believe that Bush is like Hitler are too blinded by their own hatred that no amount of reason or logic could bust them out of the rut they are in. And that is truly a shame.

Thermodyne I enjoyed reading your posts. Well written. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

You're thinking far too narrowly.

It would just be nice to hear some good stuff rather than the constant negative press about everything.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

With war I sincerely doubt that there is any good things to report until well after all the hoopla has long since passed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I don't think we can win the peace in the east because there is simply to great of a divide in fundamental beliefs in religion and values of human life and liberty between the west and the east. By east I mean areas of the world that are deeply Islamic.

I don't know that much about the religion of Islam except that I am told that it is a religion of peace. Yet all I see is what the world media is showing us, and that paints a very negative image of Islam and I think that is the real victim here. If you fight terrorism, you are fighting Islam, and no matter what we say, that belief is what propels more and more Muslims to join the ranks of the radicalized. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

We are not calling Islam the religion of terrorism, that distinction, I am afraid, is being made by the followers of Islam. All because we are, rather were, aggressively going after radicalized terrorist who claim to do the heinous things that they do in the name of Islam, we are now being branded as the haters of Islam. The world’s efforts against Terrorism are not a war against Islam. That is the message that needs to be put out there and reinforced.

If many more than not, Muslims want to believe that because the US and other countries are going after terrorism, that we are waging a war against them, their religion, and their way of life, then what can we do or say otherwise? Nothing. They will hate us regardless. Nothing we say or do will have any improving effect on how they view us. If we decide to call it quits and pull out, then we will only serve to embolden them.

Honestly the only real way to win this war is to either win by showing the Muslim world that we are not at war against Islam, or wipe them all of the face of the planet without regard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif That second option is NOT an option at all, but if a race war is to come, then it might be the only option left to both sides.

With Iran leaders acting the way they are acting, one really doesn't know what the future holds. If Iran were to use a nuke against Israel, or other nation, then what would the response be? Whatever the response, it will only be viewed one way by the Muslims; as an all out war against Islam, a Holly War. It does not matter that the response was triggered by a nuclear attack perpetrated by Iran; it will only be viewed as an attack against all of Islam. The real victims will be the inocent people on all sides who die because of this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

There is really no way to win this. I can't see any good things coming from this conflict now. Only more death, more hatred, and more war. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Just as the Western leaders have been benefitting from the anti-muslim sentiments that are emerging now among their own populations. After all, it's easier to justify the war in Iraq if your people think all Iraqis are terrorists. The tactics and methods used by Hitler for influencing his population and persuading them to hate the so-called enemy have been used by dozens of world leaders of every persuasion before and since. I mean if you want to talk about using hatred to stay in power, look at leaders from either either side in the N.I. troubles, or either side of the Israel/ Palestine fight. The leaders in these conflicts feed off hatred like vampires. The Islamic fundamentalists are doing the same thing, but so is the West. However as soon as you use the word 'Hitler' automatically associates your target with such emotive images of demonic evil that any rational debate can only suffer.

This is where we disagree. This idea that all Muslims are oppressive, fundamentalist killers is a myth. That's what I've been arguing against in this thread. However the idea that more and more of them are being converted into psychos is one I happen to think is true, and perhaps I haven't yet said so in this thread. Sorry about that.

Well, first he'd need to get around certain constitutional safeguards. Things like trial by jury, access to lawyers, freedom of speech, privacy, all that. While he has already done a great deal to erode these things (Patriot Act), he still has the eyes of the world and of his own country upon him, and there are enough people that don't believe his lies to challenge him if he were ever to be undeniably linked to something undeniably monstrous. I mean it's one thing to quietly scoop up a load of random arabs and ship them off to guantanamo bay, abu ghraib or some 'client' nation for behind-clsed-doors incarceration, torture and execution, but he'd need quite a bit more support and power yet to start doing the same to those americans or europeans who opposed him.

This I can agree with, as long as you can accept that the image being painted is not necessarily complete or accurate.

The West might be fooled into thinking that the war on Iraq had something to do with 9/11, but the people of the middle east aren't. So what's left? If it wasn't a war on terror, what was it? They see it as a war on them, on their country and people and, with a little blood-sucking propaganda from certain radicals, a war on their religion. Just as predicted from the start, the invasions have done infinitely more to recruit terrorists than dissuade them. It's the hate-vampires at work again. The more corpses they can pile on the bonfire the better they'll feed.

[quote]

With Iran leaders acting the way they are acting, one really doesn't know what the future holds. If Iran were to use a nuke against Israel, or other nation, then what would the response be? Whatever the response, it will only be viewed one way by the Muslims; as an all out war against Islam, a Holly War. It does not matter that the response was triggered by a nuclear attack perpetrated by Iran; it will only be viewed as an attack against all of Islam. The real victims will be the inocent people on all sides who die because of this.
[quote]


That guy in Iran is scary as hell. Then again, there's nothing ususual in that as far as world-leaders are concerned, imho.

To a certain extent I think I'm in agreement with you At. You seem to think that there's little hope left for a peaceful resolution, and I tend to agree. The point of debate is just how we got here in the first place. I'm inclined to believe that a few fundamentalist dickheads in the middle east and a few more in the whitehouse antagonised one another to such a point that and sucked so many normally rational people into hatred and ignorance that only warfare can result. When it's all over, maybe the survivors can take a look at one another, realise that we're not so different after all, and chalk yet another few million deaths up to experience. Not that we ever seem to learn from it.

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

I may catch hell for this, and may even be a bit off topic, but after having served in Iraq the first go-round I consider myself at the very least comfortably familiar with the general mind-set of muslim in the Middle East.

Here is an article from a muslim Associated Press writer. The very basic, boiled-down nature of the article itself is what makes my point: A cleric, of the Muslim faith itself, has offered money for the death of an individual who has aggravated him and his beliefs.

"Cleric Offers Bounty on Cartoonist"

Combine that with all the violence over what should have been a minor annoyance to an "enlightened" culture, and it speaks louder than ANY effort to put a positive spin on things.....

Re: OT: Muhammed-caricatyres and freedom of speach
 

Thanks Dogscoff. I do hope that the common sense of peace will eventually prevail, but as long as there is curruption and power grabs happening on all sides of the politics of this world, common sense is *****ed to the back seat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I like to think there are more people who just want to get on with living rather than fighting, and I do hope that those number continue to grow in the face of this current and on going cycle of conflict.