Re: Oblivion
 

Y'see?! Y'see?! That's what I'm talkin' 'bout! It's all inert, like the world is either structured entirely around your character, or structured around nothing at all, and waiting around for the sole motive force that is your character. I hate that. Not really a fan of ridiculous power curves, either, nor of games that can't think of a better way to represent power than the ability to withstand three dozen axe blows to one's unarmored face, but it's the repeatedly-lamented inertness that most gets to me.

Re: Oblivion
 

Honestly, iron axes just don't hurt very much. Especially now that axes are blunt.

I also don't like crazy power curves - System Shock got it about right. But after a year there was a mod that somewhat fixed the Morrowind level system, so don't put your money into long-term investments yet. It's starting to sound like I'll have to wait until somebody de-leveled-lists all of the levelled lists, too, which is a lot of work. Problem with mods is that you're all fat and happy, thinking, "So much work went into this mod, it'll be great! New enemies like Giants and Dragons, how fun!" when suddenly a naked nymph starts killing your level-7 character, resists all your spells, and moves around at the speed of light evading your arrows like Neo in the Matrix. And you realize that a sufficiently complex mod needs to be modded itself, and then the whole house of cards collapses.

But seriously, I think the patient can be saved http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Oblivion
 

I am totally addicted to this game. Man if World of Warcraft would be like this....that would be THE MMORPG.

Re: Oblivion
 

Its pretty obvious by looking at the pre-generated classes, at least you can tell what they didn't intend for you to do.

I bought the book a couple days ago, and here's a basic rundown how how the system works.

There seems to be two ways of determining what level/creature you will face.

There is a creature table that will pick the appropriate mob for your level. There are multiple types of monsters that are fixed level, and what is generated is based off your level. For instance:

Skeletons will always be level 3. Skeleton warriors will always be level 6. If you enter a dungeon at level 1, you will face skeletons. If you eneter the same dungeon at level 5, you will face skeleton warriors. The equipment carried by each type of enemey improves the more you move up the chart. The top tier mob of each table will always be scaled to your level to provide a challenge for high level characters.

Certain Enemies, like Bandits, or Bosses, will always be +X above your level. A bandit leader for instance, will always be 7 levels above you, and will be given level appropriate equipment.

Quest rewards can also be tied to your level. For instance, a ship gets Hijaked while your onboard. If you complete the quest at level 1, you will get 75g. If you complete it at lvl 20, you will get 450g.

Certain quests have a level requirement as well, and you can't get access to them until you reach a certain level.

Honestly I don't know how else you would do it. Because of how opened eneded this game is, there is no way to know when someone will get to a certain quest. In order to keep a non-linear structure, and still provide a challenge the whole way through, I can't think of a better system.

I have put a good chunk of time into the game, and I haven't even scratched the surface according to the guide book. Anyhow, I have the damn thing, if you have any questions let me know.

Re: Oblivion
 

Whuh?

Re: Oblivion
 

I agree, this game is huge. ive spent about 3 days of playing (i think im up to around 15 hours, maybe a little more) and ive only done the first part of the main quest (go to a monastry and talk to some guy). I would just like to suggest that if you get a chance to join the dark brotherhood take it. it leads to a huge series of side quests along with good rewards, unique items (and an interesting offer from a fellow assasin) and a great plot (really dont wana spoil it on you)

Re: Oblivion
 

I have read so many threads about the pros and cons of Oblivion that I dreamt last night I was playing, and I got to level 14 before I even did anything, just from accidentally using really wierd major skills. I was scared to death of going into combat... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Pretty odd dream. I almost never dream about games I haven't played, so I guess my mind modelled it after Morrowind.

Re: Oblivion
 

the best advice i can give anyone who gets/has it is do not play to level. play to explore/quest. the fact that things levels are dependant on yours means most places you can handle and if theres something you cant handle then go somewhere else. if you decide to just stay in a rather small area repeating the same task you'll get bored fast. just consider leveling up your skills to be a bonus.

Re: Oblivion
 

I have a fabulous time playing Dungeon Crawl. While it does lose a little in the graphics department, and there are very few sub-quests, the main quest is very interesting, and very hard. The main quest is "get to the bottom of this dungeon, grab an Orb, and return". One of the hardest sub-quests is "stay alive". Thus far, I've managed to get farthest with a Spriggan Reaper, surviving mainly on spells but doing a fair bit of melee. Spriggan is the weak, fast, magically tuned race who should stay as far away from melee as possible; Reaper is a hybrid caster/fighter, and I'm probably going to kill some orcs next.

The skill system is just suberb. Skills raise when you use them. You need experience to advance levels, but getting experience also gives you points in your skill pool. You can't get better at skills if your skill pool is empty, and you can't choose to save points in your skill pool for later, so most of the boring optimization is out. The only thing left is to choose what skills you want to use, and what you want to raise faster.

Sometimes I miss the fancy graphics, but the gameplay is so much better that I couldn't possibly choose something mediocre like Oblivion over Crawl. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Oblivion
 

i find that extemely offensive. while the graphics are one of the things that attracted me to oblivion they are by no means what keeps me in it

Re: Oblivion
 

Are you sure? Remember that the graphics in Dungeon Crawl are very different from the usual...
http://dungeon-crawl.org/site/gfx/ss-dos-lg
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif It isn't always easy to learn to play a game with graphics like this. Besides, the smiley should have gien away something... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Roguelike games are very different from the rest of the computer RPGs. They have little more than combat. They execute that part very well, but you can hardly imagine yourself to be part of a real world that lives on its own. You'd need one of the Ultima games for that...

Re: Oblivion
 

i know, im just saying that i prefer to avoid games like that (hurts my eyes you see http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif)

Re: Oblivion
 

I think I would definatley take different skills as my main one. I took alchemy for instance, and I've raised that so fast that it did have an impact on how I leveled. But normally I don't care about what is raised...the only thing I tried in the game was Armorer, and that was only so I could repair magical items.

VL did you look at the pre-designed characters? Maybe thats why you didn't get what I was saying?

Re: Oblivion
 

Welp, got it - must say, Bethesda is still as retarded as ever. Don't get me wrong - some things are impressive. But : not being able to go directly to Inventory, or Map, or Skills, etc, is retarded from a user interface design PoV. They don't _use_ 'I' or 'M' for anything! And it has a disturbing tendency to semi-lockup : mind, Alt-Tabbing from a game does tend to cause that, but it's still a sign of sloppy programming. When you can turn and look at different things via the mouse, but the keyboard and mouse clicks are dead, that's a sign they screw up their input queues.

I think (hope!) I'll play it more than Morrowind, but so far I'll agree with Endoperez : mediocre game in nice tech.

Re: Oblivion
 

I did, I just fail to see how that undermines my argument; If you focus on their primary skills, they end up underpowered. Since one would assume Bethesda wants archers to have good archery-related stats, battlemages to have good battlemagic-related stats, et cetera, it's obvious they intended for archers to be battlemages and battlemages to be archers. Save that that would make archers archers and battlemages battlemages, which would make them underpowered and contradict the premise. Hence my confusion. To reiterate, whuh?

Re: Oblivion
 

all im going to say is that my assasin took assasin skills and stats and i dont find him in any way underpowered (on any difficulty setting)

Re: Oblivion
 

Or, one could make the converse argument. If you focus on their secondary skills, they end up overpowered. If you game the system, then you end up with more powerful characters than if you don't. This is hardly new to either the RPG genre or the Elder Scrolls games.

Re: Oblivion
 

I can only comment on your complaints, and your only complaint that you listed that made it a mediocre game is the interface. "Retarded" is not the word I would use to describe them for making this choice. Actually by not developing it for the 360, they would have been retarded. I just think it was just *** out lazy to not spend more time to de-consolize Oblivon, and a big FU to the Fans who have been with this series since day 1.

I was a little pissed as well, and although it takes more clicks to get where you want to go, its not that big of a deal in the overall scheme of things.

If thats your only complaint...


VL: I was responding specifically to the overall thread of the conversation:

SC: Skill system Exploit
Me: Not Intent of developers
VL: I don't know what they intend
Me: Pre-Fab Classes suggests intent

From what I saw of the predesigned characters, they designed them like their title suggests. I didn't see anything that would suggest otherwise. I'll take a look again, but my point was that you can tell they didn't intend for you to play in the manner that SC suggested.

As for under-powered characters, I can only comment on what I have experience with, my one character. I play Heavy armor, Athletic, Blade wielding, low mana Mage that likes to make potions. I think I have half of my skill set magic related, and use magic mainly in a support role...primarily using my sword and shield as my main adventure tools. I have a total mana pool of 123 unbuffed at level 21. I have gotten +5 once, upon leveling and that was for endurance. Am I underpowered compared to a pure warrior who took care to maximize his stat increases? Most definatley. Have I nerfed myself? Most definatley not. I have had many many fights where I had to use all my skills to survive, but have only had one fight that I couldn't beat, and had to come back at a later time. No matter how I tried, the 3 slaves on 1 arena fight was way too tuff for me at low levels. There was a couple of fights pre level 5 that I had to retreat from, but more so because I was new to the game and didn't have the sufficent skills and tools to prevail.

I made a point not to powergame, and am glad for that choice. As I said, because I haven't maxed out my stats, fights are still a matter of using my skill set, instead of my stat lines.

I have heard that playing a pure mage (esp without alchemy) is hard, but playing a pre-uber level mage is typically hard. I have heard that once you crest a certain hill, things get easier.

Re: Oblivion
 

Either way is the same. I like to play games that are fairly challenging throughout, but in Morrowind it was like walking on a balance beam - pick the wrong skill, play the wrong way, and suddenly the game is too easy or too hard... but you never know if you're playing too well or too badly until it's too late. In a normal RPG, there is self balance, such that if you get too powerful you can go to a "more difficult area" with commensurate rewards, and if you are too weak you can go to an "easier area". In Morrowind/Oblivion, there is no such option - when you become off-balance on either side, you just keep falling.

Re: Oblivion
 

well theres always the difficulty slider which has a big impact (at minimum lvl i killed something with 3 shots and at max it was 10-20)

Re: Oblivion
 

A lot of people have turned to the console to correct mistakes.

But what you said is true of most non-action RPGs that let you create a character....regardless of system (skill or xp). This can happen in MMO's as well, and that is painful.

You make roll a character or party, only to find out that you nerfed yourself because: the selections you made were nerfed to begin with, were nerfed because they were overpowered, or will be nerfed in a future update. In the D&D based systems I'll spend hours re-rolling parties because I found the selections I made weren't working, or I found something that worked and I needed more of it. Actually, I spent more time re-rolling playing the Exp type RPGs than I ever did in any of the Daggerfall series. In most CRPGs, the difficulty tends to continually ramp up. Maybe if you gave me some examples of games that let you go to "easier" or "hard" areas it would jog my memory.

Action RPGs or Actionish type RPGs are exceptions, because once you choose a class, the options players are given are mostly cosmetic. And a lot of times they do have "areas" like MMO's, where areas were ment to be played by characters in a set level range.

But as far as traditional CRPGs go, I can't think of an example like you mentioned, as most CRPGs are pretty linear.

Re: Oblivion
 

I was thinking about console RPGs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For computers, I can offer Diablo II and most MMORPGs. Wizardry 8, on the other hand, leveled with you and thus had some of the same problems as Oblivion - though to a much lesser degree. In W8 the character level was tied to experience, while skills were tied to use; thus, the two were mostly independant, and it worked well.

Re: Oblivion
 

While most people would disagree with Diablo being a rpg, I think the Diablo system has both it's advantages and flaws. For example, it gives you no reason to go into the "easier" areas once you are too experienced, meaning that in the upper levels you will see a lot of hell and nothing else. This get's boring very fast, and I prefer the multitude of settings you can enjoy while having a challenge in Oblivon.

Re: Oblivion
 

Diablo II is one that I enjoyed enough that I would enjoy it just as much if they redid it and offered it with no changes other than new maps. And even if they only worked in local mode.

As for the thing about usual keypresses not working, thats usually a sign that its being written for another platform.

Re: Oblivion
 

Diablo falls into the Action RPG category, which can't be compared to traditional RPGs like Baldurs Gate and Oblivion.

And a MMO is inherently different then a offline RPG. MMO's can make design choices that aren't feasible in a offline RPG and vise versa.

I never did play Wizardry 8, so have no experience to respond from. But it sounds like you are more into the action/strategy RPGs then traditional crpgs. I enjoy all three, but trying to compare them because they share three letters may be where your going wrong. Most people lump them into the same category but imho they are three sperate genres.

Shining Force - Fire Emblem - Buck Rogers - Final Fantasy Tactics - Fallout Tactics

Diablo - Dungeon Seige - Xmen - Untold Legends - Never Winter Nights

Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

While comparisions work within the grouping, they just don't work once you start trying to compare them to games outside their genre. I think its a crying shame that games like Ground Control are compared to Warcraft. Take resource gathering/base building out of an RTS and its not a RTS anymore.

The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame. I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest. Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game....my play time will likely end when this character does.

So for me, its dissapointing that my main incentive to dungeon romp is about to dissapear. Yes mods are an option, but I'm not a graphic wiz, and I hate mods that use my old armor graphics, to "represent" something totally new.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Have mods with new graphics even come out yet? Most of the mods I have tried have been cosmetic or tweaks of some kind.

BTW if you haven't tried it, BTMod is awesome. They zoomed out the interface a bit...the inventory has 15 lines now instead of 6 for example. They changed almost every gui/interface related screen in some way. The map is zoomed out, which I like a lot better. Theres also a "pre-configured" options package available that provides screenshots of the different options, and instructions on how to install the files. The only complaint I had was the actual inventory screen..it was a little too small for me, so I had someone switch it to 10 lines, which is perfect. If anyone wants the file let me know.

Re: Oblivion
 

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

This is a terrible shame, and something I didn't expect at all! Fortunately, it is something that can be resolved by modders, since it's not an engine limitation. But having all the best gear early in the game would really bite. To me, it's similar to (but the inverse of) Blizzard's philosophy for World of Warcraft - expand the game by adding more content for level 60 characters, but never actually allow anyone to go beyond level 60. If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate - almost any piece of equipment you find can have random attributes, and (provided you're in a high-enough level area) there's always a chance of finding some awesome item that totally outclasses whatever you used before. And there were all kinds of effects, too, so it wasn't simply "Sword of +X" like in many games. Plus the gems (and runes, which I never used, as I had no exp. pack) allowed you to customize items...

Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system. In perhaps the dumbest moment of Blizzard game design ever, they even decided that all equipment bought in stores should be incomparably worse than the crappiest things (at a similar level) you can find, yet be priced roughly 10x as much. So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

Agreed, and disappointing.

What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

Re: Oblivion
 

Hehe was more reffering to the material rather then the weapon itself "Iron Longsword" "Steel Longsword" etc.

Honestly its been so long, I didn't even notice those were missing. There should atleast be 3-4 more material types...at the minimum. I actually skipped glass entirely. I went from Dwarvish to Ebony. Haven't even seen a Glass Long/Short Sword. Have found plenty of daggers though.



In a online game, I am actually driven to hit the cap so I can get on with the "cool stuff". That part doesn't bother me. But your right that something has to drive me. The cool stuff has to be there, be it uber loot, or PvP bonuses (Dark Age of Camelot, and now WoW). In SP games, the journey is exciting, from level 1 to level x. Instead of getting access to it in chunks ala Online games, in SP games it has to be rationed. Feels like I blew my wad a little too early.

Ah but see, you made my point for me. It isn't irrelevant. While on paper Action, Strategy, Online, and Traditional RPGs might look smiliar the overall goals are different which defines what choices the developers make. In WoW, having a vibrant economy was important, in Diablo...making sure a player based economy flourishes wasn't a factor. Thats why you see a Diablo type item system in a lot of Action RPGs, and why its absent from MMO's. And want to ensure that an economy never sees the light of day? Make NPC Vendor equipment a viable choice for the player.

I agree with you 100% that for Action RPGs, there is no better loot system then Diablo's. But theres a reason its not the standard loot system for all RPG's.

The main flaw with the WoW system is it allows Ninja looters. That was my only complaint. Actually I was really impressed overall. The choices Blizzard made allowed the economy to be up, functional, and flourishing during the beta. Other games can't get one up years after going live.

Hehe no, I ment that the choices I made during character creation really only effected what level my skills were when I started, not which skills I had access to. You aren't denied access to anything actually. Pure Warriors can join the mage guild, Pure Mages can join the warriors guild. Theres no real incentive for me to do this all over again. If I play a Thief for instance, I'll still pick locks, I'll just do it better then my sword loving-heavy armor-potion chugging-hardly ever use magic Mage.

Hehe we have been on opposite sides of this thread since the first day, but after all this I feel like I gave you more ammo to hate the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif.

This game is far from perfect, but I do feel I've gotten my $50 (or whatever it was) worth of entertainment. And thats all anyone can ask for.

Re: Oblivion
 

I think in Wizardry 8 only random encounters were scaled with your party level, not predefined areas. So it was much less of a problem.

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

Re: Oblivion
 

Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

Re: Oblivion
 

OG_Gleep, there's one thing I don't quite get. If I understood it correctly, you are saying that if Diablo had had a good plot, and thus had been a plot-based RPG, it should have used an inferior battle/loot system. Why?

Battles should be fun even in plot-based games, and better, unique random items could easily be given as quest awards instead of items the boss drops.

Re: Oblivion
 

I think I understand what you were saying, but I don't understand why. What sub genres do they represent?

I never considered Star Control a Role Playing Game, and didn't know anyone else did either. I did a search for Star Control and Genre and it popped up a bunch of different things, including Roleplaying.
Honestly if it were released today I doubt it would be called a RPG at all. Now all types of games have "RPG elements".

Most non-linear games offer varying degrees of freedom in picking your own path through the game. Within the confines offline CRPG's I couldn't think of a example as she listed it. I don't remember Betryal of Krondor really well, but I don't think it fits her description, and I never played past Wizardry III (Might have been 2).

Re: Oblivion
 

Betrayal at Krondor had one plot, one "main quest" that advanced the story and might give you access to new areas. But instead of e.g. going straight to Krondor in he first chapter, you could wander around and do sub-quests. When I played it, I didn't get very far in the main plot, but completed many of the sub-quests, and had just awesome equipment for my characters.

In Star Control 2, there was a similar mainplot, but it was advanced more often by discussing with other races and then completing the sub-quests that by simply collecting resources and buying stuff, although buying information could help a lot. But you could go around, to any planet, try and contact all races you wanted, fight sny races you wanted, etc. You could disregard the plot, but of course wouldn't be able to complete it - especially as the plot for once could advance even without player doing anything.

(If you think Diablo is NOT a role-playing game, despite the mechanical similarities, then a game that underlines discussion, strong plot and even rises some moral questions should be dubbed an RPG - even if the mechanics are totally different. But Star Control 2 (anotherSC?!) usn't really the point of this discussion.)

I think that's pretty similar to Oblivion, actually. You have a main quest, which you eventually want to complete, but you can wander around and enjoy the many subquests and the many areas which are optional - at least at this point in the game.

Re: Oblivion
 

I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Its like trying to compare apples and oranges because they are both fruit, or they both grow. Its possible, but not exactly fair.

I am currently not happy with the loot table in oblivion, not the system. The system is perfectly fine, and the problem would be remidied with more options.

Re: Oblivion
 

Talking about Star Control does not aid this discussion either. The topic was whether Oblivion's skill system is broken, and Star Control has no skill system at all. You sure can improve your precursor battleship, but I think most people fight the battles with normal ships instead of the flagship.

However, if we speak about broken game mechanics, Star Control 2 would be another nice example. I completed the whole game using only the Spathi Eluder, and the AI has no way to handle the "fly away and launch torpedos backwards" strategy.

Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.

Re: Oblivion
 

Okay, I misunderstood your point about Diablo, and mechanics' role in defining genre. And it seems I should just learn to stay out of discussions that stray too far from the games I actually know well. I reread what you said about players' part in the games' internal economy, and I still don't get that. I enjoy Diablo/roguelike item generation, and I just don't see why that is bad in a MMORPG.

I'll try to refrain from posting. I should have better uses for my time than arguing about games which I haven't played. I have a nasty habit of just arguing for the sake of the argument, and it seems I have too much free time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif Maybe I should just read a book.

Re: Oblivion
 

Note that they did improve the skill system in later patches, making it so that every skill affected something else : for instance, every point in the lowest level necromancer bone spray skill wound up improving bone shield (significantly), and bone spear / bone spirit by a percentage. Gave more options, but in a sense just made _new_ must have combinations of skills. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And the skill system had another benefit in a way : because players would get to level 50 and realize their skills sucked, they'd start a new character out. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif People got a _lot_ of gameplay from Diablo II experimenting with different skill sets and builds. Plus, as people have mentioned, the item drop system was amazing (not counting ninja looters http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Re: Oblivion
 

Hm, maybe I should install Diablo 2 one more time and look at that new system. I love the cut scenes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Oblivion
 

Imho old wizardry games were the best RPGs. Oblivion is an action RPG for me, it is not a real hardcore RPG. Personally I really missed the good old RPG games, I havent seen a decent RPG in the last 2 years.

Look at this "low budget" RPG:

Blades of Avernum:
http://www.avernum.com/blades/index.html

I swear this is much better as an RPG, then the new "high tech" RPGs. If you like RPG games, this is a must have.

Re: Oblivion
 

Avernum is great. I have the first 3, although not Blades or Avernum 4, which I think recently came out.

Re: Oblivion
 

Its not bad per se, actually Guild wars uses a similar system of prefix/suffix randomness, and a fixed loot table for unique skill drops. The system was implemented well, but the economy was very unstable. Only the best items really had a stable market, items deemed less then uber, seemed to fluctuate. This would be a fair comparision to draw off of when talking about WoW or other MMO's because of similar considerations and such. Another good example from the two games that SC touched on is vendors. Guildwars has item enhancements...I forget what they are called. They used to have a market, until they introduced a NPC vendor that sold them. That essentially killed their value in the market all but the top tier became worthless.

I don't mind debating or arguing and I get that you were trying to make a point. Its just you seemed to misunderstand what I was saying in the first place, and I was trying to determine if it was my posts or how you were reading them.

And I disagree that SC is anything like oblivion, and I honestly don't think its a roleplaying game. That just my opinion.

Re: Oblivion
 

There is a solution for my problem with the Loot tables if anyone is interested. Several mods have released loot rarity plugins that basically extend the level requirements between seeing certain weapons and armor. As I understand it you'd be looking for top tier gear well into your 20s with these types of mods.

Re: Oblivion
 

Yes I found these games several months ago... the Avernum series use a fixed world which means limited replay value and Blades of Avernum has an editor unfortunately it's not very user friendly thus I contacted the developers to determine if a sequel would be released... the developers said 'very unlikely'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif
If a Blades of Avernum_2 arrived with an updated editor I would definitely buy the game, but the current game and editor is too old. Thus I'm just waiting for NeverwinterNights_2.

Re: Oblivion
 

Really? I personally don't think this comes close to being an action RPG. Maybe if you constantly went from dungeon to dungeon. The amount of time I am actually swining a sword is minimal compared to the total time in game.

I enjoyed Pools of Radience..I don't remember exactly when that came out. A lot of people liked Gothic II, though I never played it. It definatley feels like the old school party based RPG games have taken a back seat to hack and slash game play. The decision of bioware to go the route they did with Neverwinter nights really bummed me out. Fortunatley I played the whole thing via LAN with a buddy so it eased the pain. The reason I enjoyed PoR so much, was the absolute scarcity of that style of RPG. And buggy rushed games normally make me upset, but it didn't bother me at all while I was playing POR.

What level are you guys right now for those who have the game? And what mods do you currently have installed?

I just downloaded a new dungeon that is supposed to be pretty sweet, called the Forgotten tomb.
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/i...owtopic=336534

Other notables:
1. 2 new weapon and Armor mods. One mods the Imperial Armor to be on par with Daedric. The other adds a new armor type and weapon type. Basically the blade equipment that has the same stats as ebony.
2. Alchemy mod that chages the name of the Potions to the first effect. Ie: Restore Health + Restore Fatigue would be called Restore effect. The end effect is that all your potions are grouped together instead of being scattered all over.
3. BTMod - Basically changes every interface screen. I think I described it in an earlier post. Makes life much easier.
4. Increased Animal drops - Spend a whole bunch of time tracking down a deer and find 1 piece of meat sucks. This alters all animal loot.
5. Wizard Hovel haven't checked this out yet.
6. Worthless Crap Mod - Adds a nominal value to all items that were previously 0 gold.

Looking for more if you guys have any suggestions.

Re: Oblivion
 

Not sure I understand the link between your first statement and second. Might be a language barrier. Originally you said that comparison work within a group and put pretty much all pure RPG into one group. However, the focus of these RPGs and their goals are different. The first group is story-centered. The second leans toward strategy and tactics and the third one is more in exploration and immersion direction (some of the games can be put in two groups). My point was that, for example, comparing combat in Oblivion to combat in Wizardry 8 and concluding that combat system in Oblivion is bad isn't really productive, because it's not what Oblivion tries to do.

Yeah, its genre is hard to define, but if you ignore action combat what is left is more or less RPG I suppose...

Re: Oblivion
 

Neverwinter Nights was a great game, not the campaign in the game... I mean the game. The game has a very deep diverse editor, multiplayer functionality, and never before seen a stable DM functionality. This game you can do simple hack-n-slash or download some deep complex story or control a world others play or create your own world or find something else to download. Thousands of modules are available for download... if one is bad simply move to the next. Not to mention the game did so great on sales it had two expansions.

You must mean the campaign within the game because there's no way someone could have played all the modules currently available for download unless their brain is plugged into their computer.
If you only played Neverwinter Nights for the campaign within the game then you only found 5% of its total game value.

Re: Oblivion
 

I've gotten to level 2 a couple times, only to have the (unmodded) game crash and lose my progress before I trained. Started looking at mods this morning, there's a couple that sound good - one that makes quest reward items level up (so doing a quest at level 5 doesn't screw you forever), and some others that change the screwed up skill / leveling concept.

What _I_ want though is a mod that just lets "I" bring up Inventory, and "M" bring up the map. Know any? *grin*

(Oh - some mods that speed up arrows / spells also seem like they might be cool.)

Hmm - Gothic 2 : You consider that ActionRPG a la Diablo, or what? I've been thinking about getting it, especially since I understand the gold version fixed a number of flaws.

Re: Oblivion
 

Well I completed the game already, along with lot of side quests, I am a master with the fighter guilds etc.
The game is really awesome, but I wouldnt call it a real RPG. Well for me the real RPG is party based, the combat is turn based, the dungeons are much bigger with lot of traps and puzzles and I could continue. This is definitely an action RPG, but I guess this is what making the game sell very good, also the incredible graphics.
I think the old school hardcore RPGs wouldnt sell very good, so we cannot expect one to be released in the near future I guess...sadly..

Re: Oblivion
 

Gothic II is kind of in the vein of the Elder Scrolls, at least at first glance. In Gothic you only play one character (either first person view or third person), it has its own skill system with crafting in particular, and it also focuses somewhat on guilds and the like. The game is relatively open-ended, at least in the way you can do things; its story is pretty much linear, near as I can tell.

That's about as far as the resemblance goes, though. Gothic II has a more subdued atmosphere, with less magic to go around than that other game, and a somewhat darker universe. I have found the world to be very engaging, in both town and countryside. Unlike in the Elder Scrolls, there are three classes with somewhat different paths, skills and quests, and your character level is actually relevant. The gameworld seems to be pretty much fixed; at least I know I got beaten up pretty quickly while strolling in some nasty places.

Gothic seems to do a relatively good job with the story and dialogue. I haven't seen any mention of Elves for starters (I haven't shed a tear for their sake). Dialogues don't go the Ultima VII style, but are instead of the "Pick the A, B or C line" variety. Characters aren't silent when you speak to them, unlike games coming from, say, Bioware. I know I mind commercial games without voice-acting very much these days; if all the game can do is show some pretty graphics, I'll do something else for my graphic needs and will stick to more textual-oriented games. Hmm, I digress.

The biggest problem I have with Gothic II is the German curse, though the game wasn't bit quite as bad as, say, the Anstoss series (most of them have not been released outside Germany, and the Anstoss games that have been translated were published under different games, just to make sure nobody can recognise them). It took the whole of two years for the add-on to be translated into English, thanks to a particularly talented publisher near as I know, and the game was released at a premium price (at least in France). $75 for a three-year old game, its add-on and their respective delays? Well, perhaps not then. Shame I don't understand German *very* well... hey PrinzMegaherz, will you marry me? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Oblivion
 

Heh. Whereas here, Gothic II Gold (in English) (with an expansion that fixed some problems) is currently less than $20, making it worth considering.

Re: Oblivion
 

Why not? It won't be long until we are all forced to convert to the Islam, so having a harem of my own won't be a problem.