Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Hi desert fox remember me? your friend the "ignorant bum" as you so quaintly put it.
There is a third option, give the paratrooper weapon slot 1 BAR values. there is no "game" reason not to do this whether it is appropriate revolves around the argument as to wetheror not and how often FG42 actually was used like a BAR.
Regards Chuck

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

WE are not doing a comparison between weapon stats The argument is that the weapon was very likely to have been used in the same -role- as BAR when appropriate. There are many sources that tell that it outperforms the BAR. Including in this threasd a testimonial from someone who has fired both.
Its light weight was compensated for by its straight line layout and generally excellent manufacture.
Regards Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Fair enough
There wouldnt be any chance of giving it the same hit as BAR, 5? And giving it a bit better range? After all I hear it performed well as a rifle, Accurate out to 800m or so I here tell.

by the way thanks for your tireless devotion to the game.
Best Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Mmm.. If you would give weapon slot 1 weapon FG-42 the same kill of weapon slot 2 weapon BAR of 5, then it would outperform every modern TRUE assault rifle in WinSPMBT, that uses the same engine as WinSPWW2 (not to mention acc. of 20, so it would represent a base-to-hit acc. percentage of 50 in 1000 meters range). So germans invented the superior assault rifle already in 1942? Put it on weapon slot 2 as a SAW, if you wan´t BAR´s statistics, as I already said some 4 pages ago. Problem solved.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Hi pdoktar
FG42 should not be compared to an assault rifle, it is really a very lean LMG.
In the light of the objections to my suggestion, an acceptable compromise I would think would be to leave accuracy at 1 but change Hit to 5 and range to something like 800 m this would I think better reflect the weapons abilities/use as a rifle than what we currently have. I quote the BAR values to simplify my argument as in game terms the weapons are identicle. However there is an importaint proviso to this I think the bar is overrted as a LMG. I actually think it should have values more like ac 10 hit 2 and range unchanged. Thus these values are what I think should be given to slot 1, acc 10 hit 2.
The paratroopers got this weapon for reasons like... what if in the drop the LMG is on the wrong side of the gully etc? The squad can still perform effectively because -any- of the rifles can be used to replace the missing LMG the rest of the squad can surrender a few magazines to the designated LMG and we can now effectively suppress the objective and use the rest of the squad as riflemen. Dont forget the Americans considered the rifle section of their squads to provide the same firepower as the BAR. The current BAR values dont reflect this.
Thanks for your interest Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Oh chucky,

So many posts and nothing but hot air http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No, it is easy enough to do, if you are willing to sacrifice some of the other weapons in the squad.

Your proposal of simply giving weapon one "BAR values" will make ALL FG42 in the squad operate like LMGs and seriously compromise gameplay. If you weren't too lazy to try it, you would know.

But as you can see, the game designers see the FG42 primarily as an infantrymans main weapon - a rifle. If you want to change their minds, you need to document that it was used primarily as an LMG. Hit the books, Chuck! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

You can throw as many tantrums as you like, that wont do anything more than amuse and perhaps earn you a post as the boards village idiot if you work real hard at it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thats the end of story as far as I'm concerned - unless of course you can produce any documentation that supports you point of view.

Claus B

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Hm very interesting post,
Giving slot one BAR values just means that we are allocating one of 7 rifles the LMG role? And also goes some way towards reflecting the enhanced firepower a squad has when armed with these weapons in place of the Mauser, ie better ROF, better range, ability to respond to any given situation as a LMG, rifle of assault rifle, I dont really want to change anyones minds they can make there own decisions, I am just presenting a case. This is of course difficult to do because posters such as yourself insist on wasting valuable bandwidth with red herrings, misinformation and by ignoring any point that is actually valid.
If you are having trouble coping with people that disagree with you perhaps you should do an anger management course?
Regards Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Giving weapon class 1 in slot 1 LMG values means that ALL of the men would be using it as LMG. If it is a primary weapon, it is to be used as rifle. If you want it in SAW role, make separate weapon, SAW version with the stats you like and create a modified infantry unit where you sacrifice one of secondary weapons for this.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Ramble all you want Chuck but here are the facts:

FG42's as automatic rifles (ie treated as primairy weapons in the game)are protrayed historically accurate in the game in relation to other weapons (when oh when will you ever understand there is more than just the BAR to compare it too?). Their higher firepower (HE kill 3) can easily be interpreted as one man out of the whole squad using it as a not so very good lmg while the rest is shooting them as rifles.
Lets do the math shall we? Lets say 8 men are using it as a rifle which would correspond to a HE kill of 2 for each (just look at other rifle type PRIMAIRY weapons in the game). Lets say not one but even 2 are firing it ala lmg. I'd give it a HE kill 4 in that role but let's be nice and put it in at 5. So 8 times 2 plus 2 times 5 is 26. Divided by 10 (the total number of men firing it) that makes the average HE kill 2.6, and we were nice enough to round that up to 3 too. Now say thanks. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

IF you would want, for your own personal amusement, to make it a SECONDARY weapon, which is the category all lmg fall into in this game, it should have a HE kill score of 4 or 5 (debatable which it should be) and an accuracy of about 15 as it was much less accurate as an lmg than, oh lets say the BAR.

The designers need to make choices. They did make them, and as historically accurate as could be expected for this game. Some people might disagree with those choices, fair enough. So they were given this wonderful tool that comes with the game to change it to their liking. Still not happy they complain that they want others to share those changes with them. So they are given this wonderful forum to put their view forward and to post their own modified OB's and other mods on so everyone who's interested can take a look at them and decide for themselves if they want to use them or not. Many people have done this already (just check the WinSPMBT forum, and the first mods are appearing here already aswel).

End of this debate. Undoubtedly see you at the next one.

Narwan

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Sure I know. You and Leonardus certainly were the "highlights" of the yahoo list. Ahhh the good old times...

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Thanks Narwan
The con side finally gives a little ground, bravo!
But just think how much of Clauses precious bandwidth you would have saved if you had come up with math at the beginning! What you have made poor Claus endure! Ok so Ill go with the hit of 3. But there still remains the question of range and accuracy, as posted previously dont you think it should have a better accuracy and range because of the scope and bipod? Seems the game treats it as a rifle for calculating hit and a shoulder fired inaccurate auto when calculating range and accuracy? If its going to be treated predominatley as a rifle shouldnt it get a scoped rifles accuracy and range values? not sure what accuracy that should be, but range would be 800m After all it was introduced to give the paratroopers long range hitting power.
Regards Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Apology accepted, remind me to make sure Leo joins this forum.
Chuck

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Nope, you're just showing your own ignorance on the matter. Don't go giving yourself compliments.
I have said nothing new. I have merely explaned for the so maniest time why the stats are correct as they are.

Narwan

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Hi Narwan
If the FG42 is to be treated as a rifle then why doesnt it get its rifle range of 800m and the accuracy that goes with having a scope?
Regards Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

I dont know were you get this "range of 800m and accuracy with its scope" stuff. Which urban SP legend did you pick that up from. (Unless you are getting totally confused with sniper rifles, which are an entorely different animal from an SLR! )

It is classed as an assault rifle - it should probably be same stats as a BAR. Treat as an SLR and ignore the useless burst capability.

There are basically 3 main rifle types - Bolt Action, SLR and AsR. Names may change but the stats remian pretty much the same.

Time to close this thread down as it is getting pointless and going round in circles.

Cheers
Andy

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

It should also have extra deadliness at 0-1 meters because it also had a bayonet. The combination of automatic fire, snipers scope and bayonet at 1 meters distance would be absolutely deadly. Imagine the surgical precision by which the bayonet could be inserted in the opponent using the snipers scope!
It should have HE-kill of at least 500 at one meter.

Seriously http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Claus B

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Also don't forget it'd boost morale to have such an überweapon plus don't forget the tip of the bayonett may be used as toothpick ;o)

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

OK let me put it this way
If the FG42 is treated as a rifle then why doesnt it get the 500m rnage of a rifle? after all it fires the same round as th mauser rifle not the short kurtz round of the other german assault rifles?
Regards Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Ok so a post from a guy complaining about wasted bandwidth without any content.
would that come under hypocrasy?

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Gee why do I have this image of a lap dog having its tummy scratched?
Chuck.

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Correct. It should have a 10 Hex range and now it does.

Don

Re: Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?
 

Hi DRG
Very excellent thanks.
Narwan reasoned that out of 10 weapons we have 2 firing auto which gives a hit value of 8*2 plus 2*5 divided by 10 for a final hit value of 3. Apply the same reasoning to accuracy and we have 8*1 plus 2*20 divided by 10 for a final accuracy of 5 and for range we get 8*10 plus 2*12 divided by 10 for a final range of 10 though the two FGs acting as LMG could be seen as justification to push the range out to 11 or 12 I guess. Anyway thanks very much for your time. As you say time for the next thread.
Reagards Chuck.