Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I have stopped playing SE4 some time ago, not enough time being one but not the sole reason. I will give SE5 a try, definitely. I still have doubts that I will start playing SE again with the new version, though. From the screenshots on the Malfador webside, eye candy seems to have the biggest part in the new design. Seems to be the new design style: take an old game, make it simpler and worse, add eye candy and fancy 3D graphics. A concept that fails every time I have seen it. I hope Aaron doesn't get too carried away with graphic design. A screen with 90% graphics and 10% boxed in a corner with a tiny part of the total data, forcing me to make my own spreadsheet in order to have a minimal overview over the game - I don't have time or fun to do this any more.

As also mentioned by others, real-time is an issue. It ticks me off every time I read it. If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second is the most important factor, I would go and play Unreal or whatever, not a so called real-time "strategy" game. It seems to be there is no forced realtime aspect in SE5, but I still fear - it's a crazy idea to introduce realtime in a strategy game in the first place, and with crazy designers you never know what happens...

MOO3, the biggest failure ever - I hope Aaron doesn't try to use parts of its design in order to prove there is a viable game behind it. Games where 90% of my efforts are directed to prevent the "helpful" stupid AI to ruin my empire are not my idea of fun. I don't mind management even if it means micromanagement. They way to reduce micromanagement is macromanagement and scripting, not artificial stupidity ruining the game if allowed to.

I do hope the testers do their job properly. Which is difficult if you hire dedictated fans to test your game. The proper testing is not seeing a new feature, getting all exited about how wonderful it is, and using it every way the designer intended to admire it even more - even if this is what I too whould probably do http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif . A proper tester must have the will to BREAK every feature, trying not to use but to EXPLOIT every rule in ways never intended by the designer - this is the only way to find loopholes that may otherwise ruin the game when hitting a market full of merciless players after release. I would recommend a second beta phase with more testers, especially players being totally new to SE if possible.

All in all I have mixed feelings and it seems to be very unpredictable what will finally emerge. I hope the lack of informations about SE5 does not mean the designer expects disappointment and disapproval, and tries to hide to avoid the heat.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Where has this myth come from about se5 having realtime combat?

Everyone listen carefully:

SE5 DOES NOT HAVE REAL TIME COMBAT.
It will be turn-based combat, just like se4. Prettier, yes, but otherwise no different to se4. Definitely not realtime.

Are we clear on that? I mean it's been stated half a dozen times in this very thread already but the message doesn't seem to be sinking in. Should we get it added to the thread title?

The next person who breezes in here whining about non-existant realtime combat is gonna get a swift kick in the combat simulator.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Um, Malfador's site lists "Detailed Real-Time Tactical Space Combat" under the features for SEV...

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I'll fully believe it as soon as you convince Aaron to scratch it out of his official feature list of SE:V on malfador.com. Till then, I'm still in doubt.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

*sigh*

Space Empires 5 does have tactical real-time combat.

However, there are lots of options available so that a player may execute the combat in any way they want. This includes automatic pausing, which allows for a fair simulation of the turn-based tactical combat in SE:IV with the exception that the ships execute their orders concurrently.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I only care about freedom of modding in se5. AI scripts is an improvement which I'm waiting for.
The more you can change, the better game's potential.
And I've already abandoned se4, it has nothing to offer to gamer and modder already. It has no tools to change an inner game mechanics and different mods add only a little variety. It was a great time playin' se4, but something new shall appear.

Re: Abandon SE4?
 

There is twice as many data files in SE:V than SE:IV. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Would you be at liberty to name a few of the new ones, just as a teaser? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Ack! If that's what combat is going to be like, then the chance of me liking SE:V just dropped to 15-20%, real-time anything does not belong in a TBS game, regardless of what it can kinda, sorta emulate. I'm definately with Roanon when it comes to graphics, too many games lately are graphics heavy/gameplay lite. Most of the games I play are old games, such as Alpha Centauri (I can barely stand Civ4). I'll give the demo a try, but I'll likely be going right back to SE4.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

*sigh x 2*

We've been over this ground so many times. The tactical combat in SE:V is Inherently more fair than the old tactical system in SE:IV. No more first shot advantage and other sorts of silliness that drove people crazy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

And for the record, the gameplay actually has significantly more depth than SE:IV and hasn't been "simplified" for the masses, so no need to worry.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I think the RTS style button/map/unit-info layout may be melting people's brains, CK.

***COMBAT IS NOT A CRAPPY RTS STYLE CLICKFEST***
Besides, it not like you get to manually control your forces in multiplayer games anyways.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

SE5 combat is much better than SE4. It is fallacious to call it "real time combat" because of all the Starcraft/Command and Conquer baggage that label brings along. It is absolutely nothing like those games. I'd certainly not be testing the game still if the combat was anything like those games.

SE4 combat sucks, terribly. There is not even an inkling of a basic initiative system as in games like MOO2 (1.31 patch). Both sides just line up and shoot, one at a time, everything on one side, in some gross Napoleonic system of warfare. Sure you can play with maximum ranges and such, but those just drag forth the other glaring issues of a basic turn based system. There is actually very little strategy involved in the SE4 combat model (other than exploiting AI weaknesses in single player).

Especially in the stock game, SE4 combat tends to be winner take all (past the pointless early game battles of 3 ships against 3 ships), because the more powerful side can deal out tremendous damage before the enemy has a chance to fire back, each round. This is totally imbalancing and nonsensical. Some mods try to get around the horrid limitiations of the combat engine by overpowering defenses so that ships survive multiple rounds of fire, but this can only go so far. With a good initiative system, you can get situations where ships on each side move and fire at each other back and forth, avoiding the one side moves entirely crap that so weakens SE4. SE5 does exactly this, but smooths out the initiative system infinitely. It is not a matter of just trying to make the combat glitzy, it is a concerted effort to make it better, to make it balanced and sensical. Playing with it in tactical mode is certainly not a click-fest/button-mash like Starcraft/C&C type games.

The auto-pause feature is the real clincher... It turns the combat into a simultaneous execution system with perfect initiative. There is no silliness with ships moving in, firing, and moving out before the enemy can react as in a primitive model like SE4; it all happens in a better, more fluid environment. No more missile dancing! There have been games that seek to put into place complex initiative systems to approximate realistic action, where ships do part of their actions for a turn in phases. While this does generally make the combat engine more balanced and sensical, it does create horribly complex, anti-fun rulesets that get in the way of playing the game. A continuous time model achieves the same goal, though to an even greater degree, without the madness.

It is still a deep TBS game, just with a better engine for combat execution. The ships are just as complex as SE4; their interactions in combat are governed by similar horribly (beautifully?) complex rules. There is no RTS style oversimplification of unit stats into attack, defense and hitpoints, no horribly frantic pacing (though you could probably create it if you ramp up weapon damage...). I can't really go into detail due to the NDA, however.

"If I want to play a game where the number of mouseclicks per second"

Number of mouse clicks is not even a relevant complaint when you can pause the combat and issue whatever orders you like... Click-festing can only be an issue if you refuse to use the pause hotkey and the auto-pause feature.

And it is absolutely nothing like MOO3, in any regard. Why do you think Aaron Hall would be so inept as to follow in MOO3's footsteps?

Remember, "real time" does NOT mean click fest. It does NOT mean "like a RTS game." RTSes are only click fests because the game engine is made to be click festing. SE5 is not made to be click festing.

(I wonder how many more times I will need to make this argument... at least the 6th time in the last few years. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif)

=0=

I'm fairly offended by this whole paragraph, as I imagine most of the other beta testers are as well. I don't know what rabid fanbois you think are running around merely gawking at new features, but I assure you there are none in the beta tester group.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Ohh - careful. Judging the depth of a game is the most difficult thing at all. More options just don't make a better or more complex game. If an optimal strategy can be found, trivializing all choices, forcing one option making all others game looser choices (why does SE4 race design come to my mind?), there is actually more triviality not less.

No more heavy first shoot advantage, that is good news. How is it done? All shots simultaneously? Random ship-by-ship? Or is it planable, like smaller ships move and shoot first, or are there technologies that enable faster shooting? This truly would be great and add a whole new feature of tactics.

Another annoying thing in SE4 is the build queue mechanic, does SE5 finally spill over construction points from one build into the next ?? Would be great too ! Much unnecessary micromanagement comes from that, and there is really no technical or logical reason for this silly program behaviour.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I'm really sorry, I didn't want to offend you or anyone of the other testers, I apologize if you feel offended. I am sure you are doing the best that you can, I think I couldn't do better, knowing SE4 and the basic game structure too.

But I know from program testing, any one too deeply involved, having too much knowledge from a prior version, tends to test in a specific, often developer-influenced direction. Without wanting it, even without noticing it. Someone totally new to the game would have a totally different approach, trying things that might be ridiculous and senseless most of the time, but uncover hidden loopholes sometimes too.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Consider the effect in starfury.

While your bullets are on their way towards the enemy, the enemy can be firing energy bolts back, and the shots cross in the middle. Two ships with equal weapons range will both fire, and both hit. Two direct fire ships in combat can potentially both die, leaving no survivors.

Naturally, projectile speed is a somewhat important feature of a weapon, since if your shots go faster, they hit earlier, and the enemy weapons get damaged earlier.

A nifty weapon might even be a gun that does Huge damage, but the bullets it fires travel slower than most ships. So it only works when the enemy is charging towards you.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

From what I understand combat will be simultaneous, all sides involved will carry out their orders at the same time.

I know alot of people here seem to feel that graphics = less gameplay/detail. But thats not the case here, the graphics was not only a good upgrade but a needed one, Aaron would not beable to sell a game that looked and felt like SE4 with a few new features. Just like SE4 was a big visual improvment over SE3, SE5 will follow the same steps, just the order of things. But the game itself will be superior to SE4 with the combat being far superior, I always really disliked the first shot adv in SE4. Im sorry but you just cant sell games with SE3 or even SE4 graphics these days unless its a free open sourced game over the net (which isent even selling technically). One of the biggest knocks in reviews for SE4 was the fact that nothing about it was animated, all gifs and whatnot, lessening the immersiveness of the galaxy in the game, I agree somewhat with that, and it looks like SE5 will give you much more of a feeling of immersiveness and roleplaying potential then SE4 could. And lets be realistic, SE5 isent gonna do much to stress most people graphics cards, as even its graphics are quite dated.

my only knock on SE5 is it isnt coming out fast enough, grr!

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I'd buy it if it looked like SEIV. In fact, I'd be more optimistic about it then, because I'd know that the *one* programmer that is working on the game would spend all his time on gameplay, instead of making a new graphics and combat engine. In fact, when new games today brag about good graphics I'm immediately put off. Also, a graphics engine change in a sequel is just about always accompanied by a worsening of the gameplay because of limits in the new engine, time constraints, longer and more expensivedevelopment time on textures/models, etc. In short, gameplay elements are very often sacrificed for some bells and make-up.

In the case of SEV, though, I'm inclined to trust the beta testers on the point that it's 'deeper' than SEIV and not simplified. Mostly because it's the same guy who has provided us with all these games, and I doubt he suddenly just lost his touch and taste about what makes a great game of this type.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

"I'm really sorry, I didn't want to offend you or anyone of the other testers, I apologize if you feel offended. I am sure you are doing the best that you can, I think I couldn't do better, knowing SE4 and the basic game structure too."

No worries; I probably overreacted anyways.

"Another annoying thing in SE4 is the build queue mechanic, does SE5 finally spill over construction points from one build into the next ??"

I'll just refer to Kwok's post:
Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

"I'll just refer to Kwok's post:
Production is like SE:IV but you can construct multiple items per turn for any item. "

Maybe I have misunderstood this - sounded to me like you can construct X ships of one specific sort, like you can do with units in SE4. But it still is unclear to me: do you still have to construct ships in a way to be as close as possible to a multiple of your construction/turn? In other words, if ship A finishes, do construction points spill over to ship B or is any leftover wasted, like now in SE4?

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I just don't get whats so freaking complicated about the concept of time stopping, you issuing orders, hitting the "unpause" or End turn button or whatever it will be called and watch your ships do what you just ordered, then time stops again and you have as much time as you want to consider your next moves and issue them..... Also who plays tactical mode unless you're in a hotseat scenario... the last time I played tactical mode was in SE3, when the strategic came along I never had to move and issue firing orders to a fleet of 200 ships individually again....

Ever play birth of the federation? I immagine something like that but with much much more detail. In BotF at the beginning of each turn you pick comands for your ships depending on what the are and then hit end turn and they do it in real time.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Ill be happy if the SE3 convention of ordering, paying for the ship, and then having it sit next to the planet while all of the components are being constructed on.

That way said ships can be attacked, possibly move, or fight back, depending on components successfully installed.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

This probably falls more into the category of wishlist item, but I'd really like to see an option to have the system-view in SE4 style. I wouldn't even mind a galciv type view, but I really don't like the starfury type view.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

If you have not seen these links, they might help to show how DoGA and Metasequoia can be used together to make 3d meshes for games like Star Fury and SEV.

http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_1.htm
http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_2.htm
http://www.virmin.com/doga/design_3.htm

With a little practice, it becomes a failr simple operation.
--
TAZ

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Simple yes. Speedy..not really. DOGA meshes tend to have absolutely ridiclous polygon counts. That's fine for a render, but it'll turn any real-time display into mush.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Starshadow:

There is a top-down view for SE:V that's like SE:IV. I use it myself most of the time.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

One of the things I've always appreciated about SEIV is that it doesn't sacrifice game-play to graphics. I can't argue with fancier graphics so long as that doesn't happen, and I don't need to replace hardware.

I'm happy with the idea that so much will cease to ride upon who gets the first shot, and something that sounds a bit closer to SEIII style building queues is welcome as well.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I think that's the most important question regarding graphics, though. Is there no negative effects on gameplay at all, concerning the new graphics?

One thing I was wondering about: Will the maximum amount of ships -limit in a single battle decrease?

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I think it was mentioned that more ships will effect things because of frame rates. The more ships you have, especially ones with higher polygon counts, the more the frame rate will be affected.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

The amount of ships in a battle is not limited, but with more ships there will be a slow down due to the large amount of objects on screen to render. However, this is not much different than if you were doing tactical combat with large numbers of ships in SE:IV with movement/weapon animation on.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Also it shouldn't have much of an effect of strategic combat, only a bit of one on tactical.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

It won't have any effect on strategic combat.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I've posted some SE:V screenshots at my website here:
http://www.captainkwok.net/feature-se5screenshots.php

Enjoy.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Looks like stuff like hull/armor/shields/supplies have pretty insane numbers. 4000 shields for a cruiser 200 for a small fighter? wow...

Really nice screens BTW, makes me even more impatient for the game to come out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Edit- I noticed one of the screens seems to have a SEIV ship design system, rather then the Starfury style one??

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

The game was at max tech so the numbers for everything are weird. For the ship design, the summary is a la SE:IV.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen shots?
 

I noticed the "Intrepid" cruiser design shown seemed to be rated 1000 kT, and the components and armor seemed to add up to more than that.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Nope, they add up to 1000. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I see "Cruiser (1,000 kT)" in the "Size" box, and then "Hull Structure" at "6475 kT" and "Armor" at "5380 kT", which add to 11,855 kT, no?

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Yeah. This needs clarification on the game. I hope that there is not much questionable/ambiguous information like this throughout the game. Newbies (customers and future fans) will be even more confused.

-Wade

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

How is it different from SE:IV? A cruiser of 500kT might have much more than 500kT of structure (i.e. hitpoints right?)

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I'm very happy to see that the component placement slots in the ship design do not have locations that depend on the shape of the top-down ship graphic.

Thank you Beta Testers for sorting out that one! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I think that this needs clarification, Kwok said that its the ship summery? So does that mean the actual design is still like starfury? Or is it back to SEIV style??

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Clarification would help but as it stands it is just the summary and the ship design is top view ship graphic "blueprints". I rather like this top view ship design. I don't think it is limited in any way compared to SE4 style.

-Wade

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Yay Kwok! THanks for the screenies, they had me drooling.

Look at all those lovely tabs in the combat strategies screen (seperate offensive/defensive formations, different formations for warp point transit.... drool)

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

I was wondering if there has been a change in SE5 in regards to exiting/closing the various windows? As it stands in SE4 we must close\close\cancel\close...etc. Keeping it like this for SE5 would be OK as long as there was a main close button. Or maybe like the internet where as we can "close" or just go "back"\back\back...and even have the little drop down list for going back.

-Wade

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

Thank you very much Kwok for these informative screen shoots and thank you Malfador for allowing Kwok to post them!
The top down system screen shows overlapping with other windows that obscure parts of the system. I hope that this can be avoided, otherwise it would be very inconvient IMO.
All the rest seems very promising!

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

they do at that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

The screenshots were done at 1024x768, which is the minimum resolution and they were zoomed in a bit.

There is directional damage so the slot design is the "official one" and is displayed most of the time - the screenshot I took is just the simple summary.

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

"There is directional damage..."

Cool!

Hello Kwok. How about the closing windows issue that I mentioned above?

-Wade

Re: Abandon SE4?Opinions:Space Empires 5 screen sh
 

There's only a couple levels of windows.

But officially I think I've already spilled more beans than an inebriated bean counter!