Re: What is really new?
 

What is the single player experience? Is there any diplomacy,trade,Alliances,etc.From reading the AAR's it just seems a game of declare war on everybody,and not a true 4X game like SEIV,MOM,etc.

Re: What is really new?
 

Singeplayer AI will be much better in Doms 3. Impossible AIs will give you a hard time to win, especially on larger maps. There isn't any diplo functions in Doms 3., however you can set up alliances before the game quite easily. [some very easy modding commands]. That way you can make excellent scenarios.
I think its not a bad thing, that we won't have diplo AI in Dominions 3. I mean take a look at Galciv2. The diplo AI is absolutely exploitable, just like any other diplo AI. [You send money, money and more money and voila they will like you.]

Re: What is really new?
 

Like in dom2 there will be no diplomacy in SP, it's true. Dominions is more a wargame than most "true" 4X.

But the question here is "what is really new ?" not "what is not new ?".
Of course hundreds of player's expected features won't be in this game, like in any sequel of any game (since MoO 3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Re: What is really new?
 

well you are playing a god, and gods typically want to be worshipped by everyone, so it's hard to get away from the world-domination thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

In other words, there's no diplomacy, but we've gotten used to it. You can, too. The game is very enjoyable even as-is. Also, AI start on passive state, and only become aggressive when they notice that you are weak, or when you attack them. That must be the simplest form of diplomacy ever seen!

One other common explanation is the fact that it'd take too much of the developers' time, "and we all would rather have more content, wouldn't we?"

Re: What is really new?
 

Well if a player is looking for a more challenging game that player can edit the .map file and setup multiple AI opponents as allies, and this permanent alliance lasts the whole game. Otherwise there's no real diplomacy within the game.
A very interesting idea would be if Illwinter was to add a very rare event where two or three AI opponents form a permanent alliance within a game.

Yes I agree... more content until the Illwinter company expands to 5 or more developers where one developer could focus on the diplomacy. A whole developer is to prevent gamers from finding exploits/weaknesses with the AI diplomacy.

Re: What is really new?
 

I don't think that there is a way to prevent human players to exploit a diplo AI.
The human player can always send gold/resources or whatever to the AI player to make the AI player happy, so the human player can form an alliance easily that way.
[This is absolutely true about Galciv2 for example, or Civ3-4]
This is what happening in all games. Game developers cannot exclude this mechanism. If there wouldn't be something like "sending gifts" the whole diplomacy system would be pointless, hence you couldn't improve the relations with the AI. Well maybe in some special way, like offering some of your troops to a specific AI player when it is at war with an other AI or something like that.

Re: What is really new?
 

Well actually the developers only need to include a formula which evaluates the total value of the gift in comparison to the AI opponents total power/value/attitude. If the gift does not add a worthy percentage increase to the AIs kingdoms power/resources/value then the gift has no value or even possibly viewed as an insult for being so small. The higher the game difficulty the higher the percentage. For example if a small country consisting of 3 islands sent an ambassador to the Mexico and offered a basket of fruit as a gift... the ambassador probably wouldn't even make it past the government guards.

Re: What is really new?
 

I'm 100% sure several games already do that. GalCiv certainly does. Developers aren't stupid. If you can come up with a solution in the time it takes to write a forum post you can be sure they thought of it ages ago.

The real problem with diplomatic AI is that it is usually incapable of betrayal. If it is then you have the nontrivial task of making it smart enough to betray the player only when it's logical. If it's not done cleverly and communicated to the user it will only cause players to complain about the AI being "random" and "attacking for no reason."

I think Dominions does fine as a pure wargame. It's not impossible to rationalize diplomatic AI if you change the story just a bit, though. Instead of a single supreme throne the pretenders could just be agreeing to ascend as a pantheon.

Re: What is really new?
 

Hum as AI diplomacy has always been exploitable in any game having diplomacy IMHO it's useless to waste the time of someone "to prevent players finding exploits with the AI diplomacy". So not the best excuse.
For me the question for Dominions is more : is the SP game so hard that the player needs help from the AIs ?
As strategic AI is far from perfection, a diplomatic system allowing the player to make peace agreements and other deals has not to be made as it would be one more handicap for the AIs.

Now if AIs still works like St Patrik said ("AI only become aggressive when they notice that you are weak, or when you attack them", a good resume of dom2 AI) I think there is a flaw in the "diplomatic part of the strategic AI" that may be easy to correct with good effects on the SP game : make AIs attack not only a weaker player but the strongest one. I think it's very simple to implement : if a pretender is by large first in charts all neighbours should attack him instead of staying passive waiting for their turn. No need to make an alliance system for that, just make all the AIs aggressive against the potential winner once a critical power level is reached (usually by the player).

Re: What is really new?
 

The reason exploits can be found is because the AI is not able to learn from its mistakes the same as a human opponent. Unfortunately this type of AI computer opponent won't be created within our lifetime.
At least if one developer is focused on creating diplomacy he can limit the exploits and improve the diplomacy with patches. My suggestion at least prevents the usual exploit of sending small gifts to keep the AI opponents happy.

I've covered all this in another topic... perhaps we'll see the improvement within a patch or within Dominions_4.

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...o=&fpart=1

Developers are definitely not stupid... which is why we have poor AI opponents in our games. There's a few exceptions and these games are only average at best. Developers are thinking of their future careers and thus focus much of their time on graphics because it's easier to promote your career by illustrating what you can create with pretty graphics compared to some extensive AI formula. Firaxis has actually taken a good step forward in hiring someone who purely focuses on the artificial intelligence... so hopefully we'll see some better AI opponents in whatever next game is being developed.

Yes betrayal would have to be worked into the personality formula of an AI opponent and most games don't even have AI personalities much less a betrayal factor. The betrayal factor is much more complex... from what I've heard and seen CIV_4 and GalCiv_2 do some betrayal.

Re: What is really new?
 

What about taking a different approach to AI? Instead of trying to make an AI "think" like a human or "seem" like a human, why not just start small?

First of all, to have the most basic aspects of diplomacy, the AI doesn't actually have to be interactable, it just needs to exhibit relations. Each AI nation chooses allies, neutrals and enemies. This can be completely random, it doesn't need to be based on relative strength and intel. If it were, the player could exploit this by focusing on large armies to keep enemies from declaring war. Neutral relations would mean they ignore you. Allies would send a message that says, "X wants to ally with you, do you accept?" They will then periodically send surplus resources to their ally, and stealthy units will never be discovered and attacked in their lands. Now, the player can't alter relations manually, but he can choose to get involved. If a nation is at war with another, he can send resources to the one he wants to see win.

A few necessities:

* war should only be declared on those adjacent
* war can be declared at any time
* if a nation is already at war, they should not choose to declare war with someone else
* neutrals should still scout and instill uprising
* spies caught instilling unrest in allied territory change relation to neutral
* assassins caught in assassinations in allied territory change the relation to enemy
* alliances can otherwise be broken at any time
* alliances and wars can be seen by all

It's not a lot, but it allows the player some ability to backstab and be backstabbed. It's also non-exploitable. The only thing the player can do is declare war. Maybe sending ally requests to neutrals have an N% chance of them saying yes. To add some risk, maybe also give it a smaller chance of triggering war.

=$=

Re: What is really new?
 

The Dom3 AI does seemt to declare war on known neighbors. The trouble is that "known" can come from scouts, spies, and spells. Also the AI must be able to decalre war and retaliate with spells when spells are used against it so "adjacent" isnt a good idea.

Also "not decare war on a second nation" can be abused alot by stealth nations. One of my favorite tactics is to hang around a war and cleanup weak points from both sides of it.

Same with "wars seen by all". I would abuse that alot. Forcing me to use scouts to see where the wars are seems ok to me.

Of course I would like more diplomacy with the AI. I would like for it to recognize gifts. But I also know that I want these things because I spend more time strategizing such things in games than other people do about strategizing combat.

Re: What is really new?
 

> Twan:
> make AIs attack not only a weaker player but the strongest one.

Why? Is anyone attacking the US? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
It is rare in history to attack the stong one. Ally with him and reap the benefit of a combined victory where your nation gets some of the spoils.

On the other hand, real life politics are not games and real life nations are not winners and loosers (OK, they might be loosers). So game balance wise (or from a there-can-only-be-one-god point of view) this might be a good solution:

> Twan:
> if a pretender is by large first in charts all neighbours should attack him instead of staying passive waiting for their turn. No need to make an alliance system for that, just make all the AIs aggressive against the potential winner once a critical power level is reached (usually by the player).


Perhaps the best diplo AI would include the ability to give other nations money, without any effect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Hmm, perhaps I'm too cynical http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Well 2 things about the diplo AI once more.

1. The AIs can ally with eachother -> Harder SP games.
2. Human players will exploit the diplo AI -> Easier SP games.

So the question is, is there a point to add a diplo AI to any game? Take a look at Civ 4. It takes a little effort to make an alliance with 1 or more nations in the game, that is hardcore exploiting. Just send them stuff and voila, you are all set. Galciv2 is the same...

Re: What is really new?
 

Well Dominions is currently setup where there can be only one winner which dominates all territory unlike our current world. Perhaps Dominions_3 has a "combined victory" option available or in the works... otherwise joining forces with a much stronger player will at best only have you achieve 2nd place(the_first_loser). By joining forces with other nations against the most powerful player in the game it allows a possible victory.

Well the best AI would be an AI opponent which learns from its mistakes, learns from strategies of human opponents, and uses formulas to behave clever and sneaky like human opponents... unfortunately I doubt this type of AI will become available within the next 30 years.
The next best AI we will see in TBS/RTS gaming will randomly select one of several multiple personalities this will make it difficult to determine what the AI opponents will be doing. This type of AI will also be moddable allowing gamers and programmers to improve existing AIs and even create new AI personalities. Any game will have much fewer complaints on AI opponents if modding is available allowing them to continously evolve.

Re: What is really new?
 

Beware of the Neural-Net AI

Re: What is really new?
 

I agree completely. I have been writing AI scripts for Age of Kings and Star Wars Galactic Battlegrounds for several years. For anyone into SWGB here is a link to my AI's home page. It has been a popular AI among SWGB random map players for some time.

I avoided using any real diplomacy with it since it is a RTS game and the engines capabilities are quite limited in that respect anyway, but it does respond and chat to allies and enemies with a fair bit of variety.

It uses a series of randomly selected strategies based on map type, resource levels, and civilization selected. It will also adjust its strategies according to changing circumstances. The scripting language and AI engine is basically just a state machine, but it can create some pretty cool results.

Anyhow, my point is that if the scripting language is kept pretty simple and straight forward, and it gives the scripter the ability to influence unit selection, access to what the AI can "see", and the ability to do through commands anything that the human player can, a lot of potential is unlocked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

A kind of "diplomacy" that makes sense to me would be to allow pantheons to form. In the current only one of each nation, perhaps restricting pantheon forming to pretenders whose paths are mutually exclusive would be in order.

Pantheons would some into their own if multiple instances of nations were allowed - then it is simple, all pretenders from a given nation could be a pantheon.

Re: What is really new?
 

Hum there can be only one true god. So if a pretender is near ascension everyone try to stop him, no ?

It's not exactly the real world situation (except in the delirium of some fanatics, and in most cases they like the attacking the US concept http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

Re: What is really new?
 

Speaking about AI....I've seen a new military robot in the news yesterday, and it can make own decisions depending on the situation. Quite scary isn't it? Maybe the things what we've seen in the sci-fi movies about robots will be real in like 20-30 years.

Re: What is really new?
 

Was it this thing? I think I can build a Lego Mindstorms unit that has the same capability (on a smaller scale, of course...)

Re: What is really new?
 

Nop it was something else.

Re: What is really new?
 

Here is a different sort of diplomacy system:

With Dominions 3 it's clear that different things can happen to pretenders. One becomes a god but the others can be bound in the underworld, destroyed, or simply laid to rest. This variation in results can be the basis for a diplomacy system.

This system uses four rules and requires a binding trading system. 1) An anhihilated pretender is worth no points, an imprisoned one is worth a point, a sleeping pretender is worth two and a god is worth 5 - (sum_of_other_scores / number_of_contenders). (That's down to 3 if all others are sleeping, and up to 5 if all destroyed) 2) The victorious god disposes of the pretenders as he chooses but is bound by terms he has agreed to. 3) A pretender may surrender and extinguish its own dominion. The hope of godhood is lost, it's prophet is depowered, but it may still act in the world.

The winner gets the most points by relentlessly destroying everyone. Everyone who doesn't win gets the most points if the player who gave them the best terms wins. So if victory is certain then destroy, if victory is in doubt then accept supporters, if victory is doubtful then steal allies by offering better terms, if losing is certain then surrender and get on the best bandwagon you can.

Re: What is really new?
 

Simple A.I Diplomacy would be a start.Non-aggression treatys and alliances.Simple trade pacts like in SEIV that give a certain resource percent.The lack of SP diplomacy is big disapointment.All the other modern 4x games have A.I diplomacy.It adds greatly to the roleplaying. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

A little off the thread's current topic, but I like being able to summon 14 Corpse Men with one death gem.
Hee hee hee!

Re: What is really new?
 

It's Air first, Death second, so Air gem.

And how is that? With a Staff of Storms? Lightning Rod only gives 4 per summon, perhaps 14 is a typo? If that's really possible, add me to the club. Corpse Men armies! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Exactly. I checked it - 6 Corpse Men with a Staff of Storms (Air 4, costs 25 gems with the new formula), 4 with a Lightning Rod (Earth 1, 5 gems). Maybe 14 was a typo for 4?

Re: What is really new?
 

I'm guessing it was the new air/death book artifact + staff.

Re: What is really new?
 

Quantum also just said the same thing on IRC. 2A2D Artifact for Misc slot. This could be interesting.

Also, imagine a Nataraja with two Lightning Rods! Caelum even has four-armed Air/Death pretender! 7 20-hp undead every turn from turn X very early in the game? Needs starting Earth income, Earth and Death mages to make the Rods and to lead the Corpse Men, and... doesn't work. Grr. They don't stack. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Oh. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Yeah, lightning rod + book. My mistake on the gem type.
Would two rods/staves stack? In any case you could have one of each, right? They're not bad at .05 of a gem each... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

But staff of storms and lightning rod together would stack, wouldn't they?

Re: What is really new?
 

Straying from the current discussion, but...
Are there magic site levels above level 4 in Dom3?
Always figured that since we could site search up to level 9 in Dom2 that it might have been left open as an option for future versions.

Re: What is really new?
 

Magic sites are still max level 4.

Re: What is really new?
 

Thank you for the quick reply quantum.

Re: What is really new?
 

Hmm, I wonder if Corpse Man spam is a viable tactic for RoR Caelum...earth crafters make Lightning Rods with reduced cost and the Harabs cast the spell...

Re: What is really new?
 

This is Dominions, so many strategies can work. We can try it out soon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What is really new?
 

Corpse Men have magic resistance of only 4, so probably not. It might be possible to use them in addition to something else, but I'm not sure yet. It's not easy to use them to great effect, it seems.

Re: What is really new?
 

Exactly. They can be excellent cannon fodders in masses. I will definitely try out this strategy to combine them with some hardcore troops.

Re: What is really new?
 

We'll have to try this out.

Re: What is really new?
 

On-topic:

I have to say that the new damage number graphics in the tactical battle views are very, very useful. It was hard to see whether or not your shortbows were doing anything before, and now I know if the Charge Body actually does anything (it does). Harrassment with arrows while "tanking" is definitely a good tactic, even against armored enemies; now I know why my enemies are driven before me.

Re: What is really new?
 

Morkilus, is there an option to turn it off? A hotkey to instantly toggle it like we can do with the background, I mean. It would be nice to view battles without it sometimes.

=$=

Re: What is really new?
 

I'm not Morkilus, but not to my knowledge.

I just noticed something strange as well: when changing to second form, the damage is shown as e.g. -46 [hp left - damage dealth - the max hp of the second form]. Hrmph. Off to the bug thread with it.