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-   -   SE V demo Interface (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=30317)

Suicide Junkie September 17th, 2006 12:47 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.

StarDragon September 17th, 2006 01:07 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Hey guys, I just spent FRI/SAT playing the demo.

I really like the fresh new look of the UI but that's cosmetic. Since it was a demo It's barely a taste of what I hope the full one will be.

One major suggestion: Give the option for SE4 style system maps (with enhanced animated planets fo course). Reason: I couldn't see anything if a ship was posted there!!!

I prefer the 2D view but had to move my view to see what was underneath it if I forgot from playing and managign my fleets... Please go back to the old icon system that didn't obscure views so much. Or at least give it as an option.

I couldn't see any ground features cause soon as I tried an invasion the game crashed. I had been attacked in space 5-6 times and wanted some payback but not in space. I dunno what teh issure was, my units moved to the planet hex and boom CTD...

Clearly IMHO this is not ready for an October Release. More testing seems to be in order.

BTW has anyone modded the Demo? Just curious...

Phoenix-D September 17th, 2006 01:33 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
One very important note on the UI: Right click is your new best friend.

Take the construction que screen. In SE4 you had buttons on the right to select rate/usage/cargo/etc. In SE5, you have to go to the Layouts screen to do the same thing. A problem, right?

Right click on any of the tabs at the top and a drop-down menu will appear with all the options from BOTH the filter tab and the Layout tab. One more click than SE4, much less mouse movement and a hell of a lot more options.

LordAxel September 17th, 2006 02:07 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quick question about the constrution queue. Is there any way to have it show what each planet is constructing without having to go to that planets queue. Looking for something similiar tthe se4 queue where you could see what all your planets we building

Phoenix-D September 17th, 2006 02:09 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
LordAxel: Yes. Click on Layout, then the Construction tab button. Or right-click on the planet name tab, and click construction.

Artaud September 17th, 2006 02:56 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Suicide Junkie said:
Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.

We shall see. At this point I feel that the demo has been a waste of my weekend. I tried hard to approach it with an open mind. Then I tried hard to like it. But it's just not fun for me.

Santiago September 17th, 2006 03:08 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Mephisto said:
AMF, I think it is save to say that us beta testers are not surprised by this conclusion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif


So a lot of these issues were brought up by the Beta testers and ignored?

As of today I can't see wasting any money on this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Raapys September 17th, 2006 03:32 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
What are the chances we'll get a complete control/user interface overhaul before release?

Gandalf Parker September 17th, 2006 04:16 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Maybe I need a new computer (disappointing since its not that old) but the graphics to me seemed to slow the game down. A new player might not notice but having just come from an SEIV game I found it irritating. The graphics arent worth that IMHO.

Also I seemed to be moving my mouse too much. I click on something and get a screen, then I have to move my mouse clear across that screen to close it. I tried keeping my finger on the escape button but sometimes hitting esc backed me up more than that one screen. Is there a "C" to close or something?

Which reminds me. This is probably already mentioned? The DEMO readme file doesnt list KeyPress codes. It says they are in the manual. But my manual button doesnt work, there doesnt seem to be a manual file. Come to think of it I didnt hack the usual help keys. A keychart is in the demo someplace?

Fyron September 17th, 2006 04:18 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
You can customize the hotkeys in the main options window. This will function as an ad hoc key chart.

Phoenix-D September 17th, 2006 04:19 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Gandalf: to get a hotkey list (and change them!) open the main menu and press controls.

The graphics have a significant effect on gameplay actually; the system is twice the size of the SE4 system, for example. Could have been done in 2d, yes, but it works better like this.

Mouse movement: right click a lot, on headings especially. A lot of the dialogs can be done that way with much less mouse movement.

frightlever September 17th, 2006 04:37 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
"Right click on any of the tabs at the top and a drop-down menu will appear with all the options from BOTH the filter tab and the Layout tab. One more click than SE4, much less mouse movement and a hell of a lot more options. "

That tip is solid gold. Cheers!

Raapys September 17th, 2006 04:40 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Personally, I prefer SEIV's 2D system view by far. This one is awkward at best, and even if you zoom out or do the top-down view thingy it basically just gets even worse, as it wasn't designed for it.

Phoenix-D September 17th, 2006 04:41 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Right click is like a tiny little God in this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Another thing: custom layouts are good for reducing the switching back and forth. I have my planets screen set to show me all the SE4 planet info screen plus Time to Arrival, for example.

Black_Knyght September 18th, 2006 01:22 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Gandalf Parker said:
Im just generally unhappy. Im forcing myself to continue playing the SEV demo to try and give it a fair chance but I feel pulled back to my SEIV game. So far Im really wanting an SE 4.5 with 4's graphics and some of 5's features.


Man Oh Man, did you take the words right out of my mouth on this one !!!

The graphics in SEIV worked just fine for me, and while some of the features added to SEV would be nice to have in SEIV they're certainly not enough to make an instant "OOOH AAAH" convert out of me. I'm not at all pleased with this incarnation of SE at all.

AMF September 18th, 2006 03:19 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Granted, but I fear that things like this, which are hard to figure out will not be found by newbies in time to avoid a highly public trashing in the media.

An tutorial that was even marginally improved from SE4 could go a LONG way to making this game accessible by john q public.


Quote:

Phoenix-D said:
Right click is like a tiny little God in this game. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Another thing: custom layouts are good for reducing the switching back and forth. I have my planets screen set to show me all the SE4 planet info screen plus Time to Arrival, for example.


StarShadow September 18th, 2006 03:42 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Right now the feature I want the most is an option for a 'classic' interface (ie an SE4 interface). I might even be able to overlook the lack of real race customization with a 'classic' interface/UI.

Will September 18th, 2006 03:49 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Ok, I've been playing the demo for a total of maybe 6 hours now...

And I just now noticed that the "real world" time is displayed in the main game window. Spouses and Significant Others of the world, Rejoice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Fyron September 18th, 2006 05:06 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Black_Knyght:

Have you looked under the hood at the data files yet? Sadly, most of the new features get buried under the deluge of the not-so-stellar interface. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

PDF September 18th, 2006 07:44 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Suicide Junkie said:
Everybody I know says the UI is bad, we just need to convince Aaron to fix it.

I hope most people can see that there is a good game underneath that UI and those stock datafiles.

Add my vote if you petition Aaron http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
SE5 is real prettier than SE4 but the system map poor UI make us regret it ...

AMF September 18th, 2006 08:49 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
I resisted emailing Aaron with my complaints, but a lot of people ("those in the know") have convinced me that the more people that do individually petition him the better the chances that things will get fixed.

So...if you want something fixed, I would email him directly.

if enough of us do it, it will get fixed. Hopefully before the reviewers get a hold of the game.

PDF September 18th, 2006 09:01 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

AMF said:
I resisted emailing Aaron with my complaints, but a lot of people ("those in the know") have convinced me that the more people that do individually petition him the better the chances that things will get fixed.

So...if you want something fixed, I would email him directly.

if enough of us do it, it will get fixed. Hopefully before the reviewers get a hold of the game.

Too bad I'm a reviewer...
Was Aaron really adamant about the interface ? At least the mouse controls could be, well, normal ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Captain Kwok September 18th, 2006 01:45 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
I think being a lone developer/programmer caught up a bit with Aaron this time with the complexity of SE:V. I'm hoping that with the pressures of the release past him, that more time can be spent refining various items in subsequent patches.

frightlever September 18th, 2006 07:34 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
1 Attachment(s)
Okay I tooled around with the Standard System Display I posted at the start of this thread and came up with this. Ignore the crappy resolution (it's about an 80kb file) and the nasty *** cut and pasting - I just wanted to show what it could look like if more room was given to the actual system display by cutting away the thick border at the bottom of the screen. Just try to imagine it blown up to fit your resolution of choice.

And yes I am died in the wool 2D only. The 3D display is faux I tell you! Faux...

Phoenix-D September 18th, 2006 07:40 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
fright: where's the sector display? Or is that it in the lower-left?

If we're going for a revamped interface, the simple way would be to make everything movable. The complicated way would be to stick everything up top and on the sides, and make a "viewport", so the controls would never obsure the screen.

frightlever September 18th, 2006 07:48 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Sector display is top left. It and the planet/ship display could as easily be swapped. And there's plenty of room down the right hand side for more "buttons".

Edit: and I've no problem with movable panels but the main thing IMO is that most screen resolutions (all?) offer more space horizontally than vertically so it make far more sense to use the space at the sides and thereby maximise the view of the system. With the standard view about a qtr of the height of the screen is unavailable to the system map.

Phoenix-D September 18th, 2006 08:25 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Sectors are individual hexes in se terms. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So what you called ship/planet display.

wrongshui September 18th, 2006 08:30 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Whats wrong with the UI exactly?

Ive played SE 3 and 4 and im enjoying the demo, everyone else seems to be acting like the game kicks them in the balls or 2 or 3 clicks equals a MoO3.

It could be more intuitive I suppose but its not ruining the game for me.

Phoenix-D September 18th, 2006 10:03 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
frightlever: good news and bad news. The good news is that SE5 has a Hudsettings.txt file that lets you move various interface elements around. So in theory we COULD make your custom UI layout.

The bad news is the file doesn't have all the settings needed to do that. :/ You can move the buttons of the main bar and orders menu around, but you can't move the containers they are in or any other interface element. Looks like something that was started and put on the back burner.

Noble713 September 18th, 2006 10:11 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
So if we moved the buttons like frightlever did they would just be floating in space? What about editting the images for the "HUD panels" so they are completely black or something similar?

Phoenix-D September 18th, 2006 10:18 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
1 Attachment(s)
That might work, but they could still get in the way of clicks. And yeah, the buttons would just be floating in space. No border or anything like that.

EDIT: yep. The main buttons are in Dlg_Main_ButtonBar.bmp. If you replace the contents of that file with that nasty pinkish color, it turns transparent. Boom, instant buttons-only display.

EDIT2: here's a larger, easier to see version of the minimalist UI.

Phoenix-D September 18th, 2006 10:37 PM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
1 Attachment(s)
Here's a tiny, crappy picture of a ultra-minimalist UI. Not that I haven't MOVED any of the buttons yet, just got rid of their borders entirely.

You'll note that the quadrent map is transparent, too. You can click on sectors through it now; the only thing there that is clickable is systems and the command buttons above.

AMF September 19th, 2006 02:38 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
That's a good start, and very encouraging. Can you do the same, but with a 2D view, so we can see how feasible it is to see all the planets names at a legible size?

TheDeadlyShoe September 19th, 2006 02:48 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
my UI gripes:

Having to use the filter button in the design screen is extremely annoying. It would be 900% better if you had a ships button, units button, and a Filter button that did obsolete designs/enemy designs.

The non-stackability of Units in most aspects of the UI makes handling them extremely clunky, particularly in the Log, which is continiously spammed with individual unit construction reports. Ideal would be a single construction complete notification for each type of unit under construction, listing the quantities and locations of completed units. Stacking units in cargo would be nice too but far less crucial.

I'm not sure if this is a UI issue or not...I don't understand how to get the AI to automatically upgrade facilities for me, nor automatically colonize.


AMF September 19th, 2006 03:19 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Now this is definitely closer to what I am talking about. How did you get it to do this? Ditto on the 2D v 3D thing. 3D systems just don't work with this UI, but a 2D one, with moving windows around as you indicate, might be sufficient, provided something can be done about the planet icons and font size etc...

Good to know the interface can be modded, in any case.

Can you do a step by step HOWTO on creating this layout?

Edit adds: Can you send the pic to Aaron, also?

And, is there any way to offset the flag and other planet icons in the 2D view, so they don't obscure the planet? OR, can the hex selection color intensity be changed, or put on top of the icons, so I can tell which planet I have selected?

Thanks again, this is looking better and better. Will definitely do this to my UI when I figure out how to.

AMF

Quote:

frightlever said:
Okay I tooled around with the Standard System Display I posted at the start of this thread and came up with this. Ignore the crappy resolution (it's about an 80kb file) and the nasty *** cut and pasting - I just wanted to show what it could look like if more room was given to the actual system display by cutting away the thick border at the bottom of the screen. Just try to imagine it blown up to fit your resolution of choice.

And yes I am died in the wool 2D only. The 3D display is faux I tell you! Faux...


Black_Knyght September 19th, 2006 08:13 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Imperator Fyron said:
Black_Knyght:

Have you looked under the hood at the data files yet? Sadly, most of the new features get buried under the deluge of the not-so-stellar interface. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Yeah, I took the time to look at them, but in truth I'm only just beginning to understand the modding process and now I'd have to learn another one.

Additionally, I've run this Demo now a total of 12 times, and it constantly gives me headaches and troubles. In all likelyhood I'd have to update my entire system to play it, which I'm not at all about to do simply for a single game that hasn't impressed me in any way. I think it was a very bad idea to gear it towards higher-end systems graphically.

I liked the playability of SEIV, the "Hands -On" adaptability of the game, and didn't play it simply for the graphics. Being able to do things like rotate a solar system just doesn't give me goose bumps all over.

I know my lack of drool over the new game is a minority opinion, and while I respect those of others folks I think I've come as far as I'm going to with Space Empires. I liked SEIII, I really love SEIV, and SEV just didn't go where I'd hoped it would. They did improve on the things I liked, but then overran it with things I didn't.

Suicide Junkie September 19th, 2006 08:30 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Phoenix-D said:
You'll note that the quadrent map is transparent, too. You can click on sectors through it now; the only thing there that is clickable is systems and the command buttons above.

How about making the greyed out orders 50% transparent via the good old "every-other-pixel" trick?

AMF September 19th, 2006 08:33 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Has anyone out there played the demo using 1600*1200 resolution?

In about 10 months, I plan on buying a new monitor capable of that resolution, and I'm wondering if I can anticipate a big difference in playing SEV? Is everything much more legible etc at that res?

Tks,
AMF

Suicide Junkie September 19th, 2006 08:33 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

AMF said:
And, is there any way to offset the flag and other planet icons in the 2D view, so they don't obscure the planet? OR, can the hex selection color intensity be changed, or put on top of the icons, so I can tell which planet I have selected?

See if smaller flags help any:
Mini Flags

Captain Kwok September 19th, 2006 09:30 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
It should make a huge difference on the amount of the system you can display at once without any of the HUD overlapping the system. For example, a modded system of 20x15 hexes fits quite nicely at 1280x960 (top down or skewed) on my computer. So I'd imagine the default 26x20 hex system would fit very nicely at 1600x1200. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Makinus September 19th, 2006 09:48 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
First impressions of SEVdemo:

What i liked:
- The need to survey new systems (i simply found kind of strange in SEIV that your scouts scanned instantly all the system, with all the data of every planet and so on)...
- The 3D view... i know that a lot of people are complaining about it, and the difficulties of managing the view, but i found it not so hard and i think it gives a more epic feel to the game (this don�t mean that the interface should not be improved, as there is room for a lot of improvements in the UI)...
- The tactical combat, both in space and ground combat, and the moddeling of units in combat individually instead of stacks (one of my main gripes in SEIV).
- The way that research is handled, i find it much more realistic, and easier to manage than SEIV scheme.


What i didn�t like:
- Vehicle Design, i find the interface too clunky, with too much unecessary clicking, and i can see at least 2 improvements in the UI that would be simple and reduce a lot of clicking (see in suggestions below).
- Empire flags: even when small they obscure too much, while they are bearable in the 3D view, they are horrible in the 2D view, obscuring the planets nearly completely.
- Events display, maybe it�s only me, but i found the SEIV event display much more advanced, and i think the SEV events are too huge screen wise.

Suggestions:
- In Vehicle Design, when viewing a component, eliminate the need for the player to click the "Close" button to close the information of the component, allow the player to simply click the information screen again to close it. This should be applied to all static screens, i.e. all screens that the player don�t need to choose anything...
- In Vehicle Design, when you choose a component to put in a design, keep the mouse with that component after putting the first one in the design, only changing the component when the player chooses another one in the component list, this would make putting multiple components of the same type quicker.
- Events Display: reduce the size of each event, maybe with smaller icons, as the icons and not the message is what is occupying most of the screen.

I�m still playing around the demo (didn�t reach the turn limit yet) and will probably have more commentaries, but for now the major problem is the UI and not the game itself, aasi�m finding a much more advanced game than SEIV, but with a worse UI, as the majority of the people are finding too.

Just to add my 0,02 cents...

Captain Kwok September 19th, 2006 09:53 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Makinus said:- In Vehicle Design, when viewing a component, eliminate the need for the player to click the "Close" button to close the information of the component, allow the player to simply click the information screen again to close it. This should be applied to all static screens, i.e. all screens that the player don�t need to choose anything...
- In Vehicle Design, when you choose a component to put in a design, keep the mouse with that component after putting the first one in the design, only changing the component when the player chooses another one in the component list, this would make putting multiple components of the same type quicker.
- Events Display: reduce the size of each event, maybe with smaller icons, as the icons and not the message is what is occupying most of the screen.

These ideas already exist: Use ESC to close the windows quickly, shift+click allows for adding multiple components, and the log/event pics can be made smaller/none by clicking on the column header (which also works for the list screens as well).

Makinus September 19th, 2006 09:57 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Cool, i�ll try playing some more, i dind�t knew about these options...

I should play some more before suggesting things that are already there...

Raapys September 19th, 2006 10:25 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Still, they should probably be the default mouse functions, instead of requiring the assistance of the keyboard.

Captain Kwok September 19th, 2006 10:38 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Most of the windows are moveable (click on the blue name box at the top of the window to move it around) so having a mouse-click close the window might not be the best idea. And plus I don't know of any program that uses windows that close when you click on them either. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

AMF September 19th, 2006 10:47 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Wait, I couldn't move the three windows in the main screen (quadrant, items list, and orders). I've pointedly suggested that to MM, but are you implying we can actually do that in the full (non-demo) version of the game?

Thanks,

AMF

Phoenix-D September 19th, 2006 10:47 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Its actually not that uncommon for info-only windows Kwok.

Phoenix-D September 19th, 2006 10:48 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
No, I think he means the pop-up windows.

BTW, what resolution is everyone running in? I'm begining to think some of my non-annoyance at the UI comes from the fact that I'm using a 19' LCD and running the game at 1280x1024..

Captain Kwok September 19th, 2006 10:59 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
Quote:

Phoenix-D said:
No, I think he means the pop-up windows.

BTW, what resolution is everyone running in? I'm begining to think some of my non-annoyance at the UI comes from the fact that I'm using a 19' LCD and running the game at 1280x1024..

I'm sure that helps. The screenshots I posted at my website are at 1024x768 and they are a lot more cluttered than my default mode of play which is 1280x960...

Phoenix-D September 19th, 2006 11:08 AM

Re: SE V demo Interface
 
-peeks-

Ok, yeah, I can see that now. The UI elements stay the same size, meaning the smaller your resolution the less you can see of everything else. :/

I was *wondering* why there was so much space between UI elements..


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