Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Well, that was bad luck. And admitedly E9 can be nasty on the SG's, though something like W9 would be worse since it would nullify their weak Def and give them and extra attack.

Seriously, against Agartans the high Def of the Ambitates really shows. You do need to have an amount advantage vs the Seal Guards though, I admit it, but I think that Ambitate Nobles are far easier to mass than Seal Guards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Troglos are hard to deal with, but I'd use Javelineers in large numbers for them....if they are pelted with missiles and then dig too deep into block of infantry they'll get ganged and die. Remember that a troglo costs 50 gold and a javelineer costs 10. You can get 50 javelineers for the price of 10 troglogs. Troglos are great, but they need to be used in a "critical mass" so to say or they will get beaten. Javelineers are suprisingly good against the soft Agartans...

Troglo Lords and Ancient Lords are worse, but then again you have great acces to Horror Mark and Curse and a bit later on Paralyze. If you hit Evoc 5 and Alt 1 you could use a N1 Druid with either EP, 3 Earth or Communion backing for more precise Gifts from Heavens strikes.

In time of serious troubles I could even consider using Cave Drakes to suck in blows... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

My typical research pattern goes Thaum 1 - Evoc 5 - Alt 1 - Conj 3 for:
- Horror Mark, Communion, Curse
- Bladewind, Gifts from Heaven
- Eagle Eyes
- Summon Earthpower

If I was in imminent threat of big creatures I could aim for Paralyze first.

That's what I'd do. Your Mileage May Vary as usual. And it might be that Marverni has harder time vs Yomi or such, just like in later era there are such pair. Imagine Marignon vs Abysia...! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Using Carnutes against Agarthans sounds like trying to beat Agarthans at their own game. Of course high strength helps to punch through armor, and with berserk on it could be even worse, because in this particular case (C. Nobles) it substracts 2 from defence. You're basically trying to say 'Carnute Nobles are bigger, stronger and tougher than Agarthans'
I'd rather try Ambibate Nobles who have +6 defence compared to berserked Carnute Nobles, and a bit more attack, too.

B0rsuk, who never played full version of Dominions 3.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

I'd don't like "protecting" Oni demons by having them run away on their first death. First, if the causative priests aren't dead, the demons will just get blasted on the next enounter. Second, until high-morale summons dominate the game - which should be fairly late in Dom3 - battles are mostly decided by who breaks first. If only some break, it's just harder on the troops remaining.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

I've never had a problem with the Oni Kings. Usually, keeping a mass of Dai Oni together throwing fireballs & poison at approaching troops keeps them out of combat (the enemy tend to retreat before they reach the demons).
Priests could be problematic, but again you can mix in non demonic troops (such as a bunch of bandits scripted to fire at the rear, hopefully killing the priest quite quickly).
One possibility would be to use stealth armies of bandits scripted to loose off a few volleys towards the enemies' rear and retreat. You could then ambush priest heavy armies and try to remove the priests, before delivering the killing blow with the demons.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Also even if you have many demons in your army, chances are that you also have a lot of bakamoo and bandit archers as well. If demons flee, your archers as well as other non-demon troops are doomed. And purely demonic armies are simply not very flexible, even with the significantly decreased cost of demons.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Eh yeah Niefel's biggest problem is the research [especially if you would like to get blood slaves], but nothing can be perfect. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

A nice trick you described. Which suggests to me that you've never actually even bothered attempting it since there's no such thing as "fire rear".

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Eh, may I point out that there definately _IS_ such a thing as fire rear? Albeit it seems that only commander archers get that option.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Commander archers get fire rear. Normal archers don't, but can fire archers which appears to default to fire rear if there are no archers present (and is equal to fire rear if there are, since the AI never alters it's deployment).

Never tried it with Yomi, like I said, I've never had any problems with a Dai Oni army.

A game of Yomi
 

After reading the analysis, I thought I'd try these Yomi in Early Era. I must admit, I kind of like them.

Since the troops for Yomi is so cheap on resources, Sloth 3 + Order 3 seemed a good choice. Having heard of their poor research skills, I took Magic 3 to compensate, and also a single luck for more gold. A bit of heat for points, and 3 earth, air and astral for various protection raising troop buffs completed my (sleeping, I think) pretender.

In the beginning, I found the little devils mixed with the little archers quite efficient. The death generals can lead an impressive number of these, and the classic "stay back+fire(none) + guard commander was as effective as ever for most indies. For archers, I placed the archers all the way to the front, placed the meeleers right beside them with attack and this work pretty well too.

For research I went for the obvious F3 Flame arrows, which turns those little archers into killing machines, and for all those easy-to-get mass buffs (legions of steel, strength of giants, wind guide) My plan was to use my pretender for anti-magic besides the wind guide, but I never found any astral gems, so that plan didn't work out very well. Still, the massed (60-80 seemed to work well) squads of flaming archers were extremely effective. At one point I had a fire immune Dai Oni SC in the front working with those archers... that work extremely well. He'd go in, smack a few enemies, and then watch them all die in a hail of flaming arrows.

I found death summons quite effective... reanimating, skelespamming, behemoths.. that kind of stuff. That also served to dilute those banishment, which are definitely the weak side for early Yomi. Small squads of crushers and behemoths made for some good shock troops, though the attrition rate was higher than I'd liked.

Things to improve: The luck scale was definitely a bad thing. I found that the game still had the "lucky" events "56 useless light infantry" and the (since I had no bless worth mentioning) equally useless flagellants. I used a lot of indie commanders to scoop these up and use for arrow wards and sacrifices, mixing them in with devils for better morale. The astral was a mistake... I'm not yet quite sure how to deal with the priests. And I should, as always, create more SC, though I still think that those are quite silly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Please note that I quite suck in this game, so probably, the above guide is what *not* to do .o)

P.S: Completely offtopic... but why the spell check button? Doesn't every browser under the sun a spell check built in for forms? (But I suppose it doesn't hurt)

Re: A game of Yomi
 

I like the idea of retreating ghosts. Maybe a new "orderly route" attribute that causes them to retreat to a province containing a commander who can lead them (or to retreat normally if none is available).

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Better yet, make it so that when retreating by command (like fire and flee, or a commander scripted to retreate) everyone automatically chooses the province they attacked from as their choice of flight route (and if it is occupied - then they scatter), and make it so the ghosts retreate by commad.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Yes, it's a good strategy, and quite similar to what I did in my 3 games with Oni. In SP Oni are fine, but that's because AI doesn't understand how to counter them with priests, or how to deal with SCs. The problem with Oni is in MP.

Anopther thing for Oni in SP btw - with invulnerability/sould vortex, armor of dispacement, and bracers of protection plus luck, Dai Oni can kill pretty uch any AI army, unless it has mages with nasty spells, without suffering any loses. I;ve destroed nations almost as powerful as my (on very large map) in 3 turns during the late game, by doing "Market Garden" with flying Dai Oni on all uncastled provinces, and than blocking all castles on turn2 with same Dai Oni-s.

Anyway, I am glad that my little analysis has motivate you to play Oni Kings though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Does lots of cheap mages spamming skeletons help with the banning? Also, I suppose you could dilute the small archers with bandits/indys to reduce the effectiveness of the banishment there. You'd still need some shock troops... maybe summons?

Anyway, I have trouble playing on the medium maps with just 4 normal AI's... too often, they overrun me before I can establish a defense http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif So I'll sure get a rough treatment in human MP http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

But Bladewind (and Rain of Stones) shouldn't have much of an effect on the ethereal form, at least if the manual is correct : both spells damage is Mundane, meaning that it isn't considered magical for purposes of hitting.

But one thing I really dislike is that it seems that Yomi/Shinumaya have national spells that they simply can't use via their national mages. (Even LE Jomon has a very difficult time using some of them, considering that Contact Dai Tengu is A2E1, meaning that essentially 1 in 25 Master Shugenja can cast it.) Not only that, Shinuyama having _no_ air mages and no air income means that even with a pretender setup for casting it, it's extremely difficult for them to come up with the air gems to cast it (since the only one who can finding air sites would be the pretender, who probably starts slumbering or imprisoned).

Shades of the one Marignon theme in Dom2 being absolutely unable to use their starting national spells. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: A game of Yomi
 

In my experience so far banishment isn't a problem from the AI (it usually wastes about 3 turns blessing and buffing before it even gets around to trying banishment). Obviously it would be slightly more dangerous with a player scripting specifically for it, but one thing Yomi has which Ermor doesn't is the ability to switch to non-demonic troops (rendering those armies of priests pretty useless).
The main danger I've found from the AI is resistant or immune to fire units, though that's probably down to my propensity to fireworks http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif. That thrown fire might not be accurate, but the old saying "everything counts in large amounts" holds true here (especially when combined with the poison spit). You can back this up with bladewinds or similar and crush entire armies before they can even close.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

This thread is nearly 2 years old. Does it mean that Yomi is in for an imminent upgrade? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

I really like KO's idea of reducing costs and having the ghosts flee the battlefield. Not only would this fit the description of "near immortal" better, but it would allow players to try and come up with innovative strategies and make Yomi play very differently than other nations. I think this would add a new twist to EA Dom as other players would need to adjust when playing Yomi.

The cost reduction would still need to be substantial though. FWIW I could think of interesting possibilities if they are reduced to the following:

Ko-oni: 6 gold and the summoned version (MA) would be 10 for 5 gems.
Ao-oni: 16 gold
Aka-oni: 20 gold
Oni: 30 gold
Kuro-oni: 40 gold

At these prices they might be too hot for the AI to handle, but a human player will adjust and concentrate on banishing them rather than engaging in a fair fight.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

webuser: Ming, thread necromancer
sternest: I'm the grand necromancer

What a great anagram! You can replace the word necromancer with any word. Ming, thread monkey? Ming, thread killer? The possibilities are endless, you lucky thread ninjapirateoctopus.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

These are similar to the CB prices.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

I gave Onis furs, better precision, and lower morale in ghost form. So far Yomi holds up pretty well against other nations in my games. Furs are the most important part, because it means their Protection is non-pathetic vs. arrows, Wolf Tribe Warriors, etc.

-Max

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Also gives you more buff spell options, if they actually have some kind of armor on.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

quantum_mechanics,

Sorry, never played CB and didn't realize I was repeating an old idea. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: A game of Yomi
 

I do believe the various oni troops already got some cost reduction not too long after release. (probably shortly after this tread stopped moving. )

Meanwhile KO has played Yomi in Kingmaker, and has been overheard to say he was brooding on some ideas about Yomi, so it's quite possible we'll see a couple of changes in the future.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Amhazair,

Wow, they must be very overpriced initially!

Thanks for the info.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Well in my SP game I'm just lucky I got my god (cyclops) back to my capitol before it was overrun.. my troops didn't stand a chance against a fomorian army of 50 giants and 50 firbolg.. not even with all my mages (8) spamming skellies.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

I think Oni Generals ought to get 2 katanas-thus, two attacks per round-instead of a single dai-katana. That would distinguish them, and in the process boost Yomi a tiny bit.

Re: A game of Yomi
 

lol that would only be a very very very small change..

give ALL oni 2 h2h weapons and make them sacred.. that would be nice

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Did you try to defeat the attackers outside the walls of your castle, or wait for them to storm? In a magic-versus-troops battle, you're much better off fighting from behind your castle walls. You can pretty much count on the AI to storm you.

Try casting Destruction with a Sorcerer, it's great in a storm castle defense. Earth boots are great for E2D Sorcs, your Destruction fatigue is halved. FED Sorcs can spam Magma bolts on the invaders trying to get through the skellys blocking your gate, and they benefit from earth boots too. For a castle defense against giants you should only need 4 D3 skelly spammers (each one is equipped with a skull staff). Hannya are good to take care of troops like Fir Bolg or Nemedians, with Eagle Eyes plus Fireball or Falling Fires. Have a F2A Dai Oni cast Sulphur Haze on the hordes trying to get through your gate, you can script something like (Phoenix Power, Sulphur Haze, Bane Fire, Bane Fire, Sulphur Haze, spells).

Re: A game of Yomi
 

Well I couldn't miss my income and nto have troop building for that many turns.. it was about turn 10.. if I let him sit there then I could as well just go AI

The spells you say are not available yet (and mostly they aren't on turn 10-15.. I had researched for animate skeletons and was on lvl 1 evoc.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

I think making all oni sacred would be a bit much...Maybe if they only became sacred once they'd been killed for the first time?

I'd love to see Yomi with a lot more summonables, ala Lanka. Maybe some powerful uniques and new heroes. They're a really interesting nation, and there's a lot of potential there, but they sadly missed the post-Lanka power boost. Lots of unique unit potential here, moreso than many other nations, IMO, since there always seems to be a great many specific demon kings and generals with really weird appearances, traits, and abilities.

Also, if the smallest Oni were made very cheap, that would be a lot of fun.

I tend to use the cold Oni a lot as a main melee unit-the others definitely seem a little underpowered, even the 65 gp ones. I think the Oni should get a bite attack, or something. If the cold guys could throw snowballs the way the fire onis throw flames, but still keep the numbness attack-and the fire onis a chance to set units they strike with their clubs on fire, that would be a big boost. Maybe the more expensive onis could then do (50) minor shock damage, and (65) poison damage?

Lastly, how about Dai Oni getting a 1hp. thirdform? That would make them very surviveable.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Yomi was the first Dom3 nation I played and it made me think that I sucked. Then I played Abysia and realized that it was just Yomi.

Suggestions:
-Let Dai Oni keep all their slots in all forms.
-Either increase the MR on the Oni or let one type be Sacred (even an afforable sacred summons would help a great deal).
-Give Demon Priests the Demon Tag (so they can reanimate).

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Yeah, Oni (all Oni, not just Dai Oni) should definitely keep their slots at all times, I'm all for that.

Also, maybe Oni generals could produce some of the smallest (Ko?) oni?

Since Tengu would (rarely) take human students and train them to be fantastic swordsmen, maybe Dai Tengu could once a year produce a high damage/defense human unit with a magical katana?
There's a couple of unique Tengu that would make good heroes/summons too.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

KO:
I find Yomi to be a really fascinating nation.

I wish it's power wasn't on the lower fringes, because the mythology is pretty vast and interesting, and the mythology is a major part of why I like to play Dom. At least several of the ideas brought up so far would go a long way to making Yomi more popular, so more people could enjoy it.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Yomi isn't all that bad so long as you play smart. Once you get into their midgame they are a powerhouse, and their Dai Oni are devestating SCs and battlefield casters.

If you want to survive through early, evocation is your friend. Nobody does it like the Dai Oni- fireball, bladewind, shadowblast.

An awake E9 cyclops also helps.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Dai one are to expensive to be casting those spells..

Against giants the typical race strat (archers are usually advocated) is very very bad and I don't really have much other options atm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

My cyclops is chasing them now but taht is about all I can do.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

The Dai Oni may be the key stone around which Yomi rotates, but what about a more army oriented set up?

It seems just using the Dai Oni and archers is kind of repetitive, and not always successful.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

not against fomoria at least.. I just lost an army to a little PD. I'm behind in research too since I used the snakewomen to try and get the giants out of my capitol without effect.

I actually hope he kills me quickly since there is no way I'm gonna do much usefull (well except maybe kill him while someone else is on him (which is happening))

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

What units did you have before the PD incident, Aezeal? Can you give types/numbers? Also, what do you have now?

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

Dai Oni are too expensive to be casting those spells? Are you nuts? Nobody is too expensive to be casting any spells, so long as it will win the battle.

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

I have 100 Dai-oni fully equiped http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Yomi - Oni Kings analysis. Developers please r
 

The demons are nice once you get a few spells, but they aren't great opening troops. And by a few spells I mean some serious buffs/darkness. But at that point they dominate handily.

Hannyas are also good casters- Eagle eyes+ fireball wipes out rank upon rank of enemy, and legion of steeling bandits makes them solid chaff.

As far as just plain troops go, Yomi is kind of lacking against anything with armor and ranged abilities.