Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

That is the whole point, what do you give up in order to gain something.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trachmyr:
Oh, about afterburners (Combat movement)... you got one big problem with them, only the higest value is used... they DON'T add together (unless this was changed in the Last patch, but I don't think so)... so if you got 5 Tactical Engines each with a combat move of 2, you'll only get a combat speed of 2 NOT 10. Sorry for the bad news.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But if you make set of tac engines with a range of movement from say 4 to 8 at different tech levels, each with a 5 or 10kt size it allows for fast interceptors with fewer weapons or slow bombers with more weapons.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But you still got a problem with the engines, you make it an either or propositon... you can have fast ships that are slow in tactical or slow ships that are fast in tactical, but not fast/fast ships... so what's the point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slow, fast tac. ships use afterburners.
Fast, Fast ships use engines + afterburners.
how do you get a
fast, slow tac. ship? (as in 7 strategic, 1 combat?)

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Well, there's the problem.
The only way to make different tactical and strategic speeds possible for a slow tac and fast strategic ship is to edit lots of files.

All ships would require a 'max number of engines' much lower than it is at the moment. Strategic move engines would provide both tactical and strategic movement, but ships can only get a certain amount of tactical move from their engine (note, only one engine). Change all engine tech levels to provide 5 move, 50kt, cost of 5 normal engines. All ships to have max strategic engines 1. (note this means if your engines are hit, you are toast)
Then design the tactical booster engines for ships (only one component / ship works). For balance purposes, the higher the tactical speed bonus, the bigger the booster is going to have to be (more expensive too).
Fighter strategic engines would provide 1 move for 1kt or 2 move for 3kt or 3 move for 6kt etc. a similar progression of cost / space for speed for the ship tactical boosters.
For higher strategic engine tech levels, you decrease the cost / supply usage for the engine or add another move onto it as the unmodded engines do.

If someone actually impliments this, you'll have battle line of strategically mobile heavies supported by carriers with tactically fast fighter Groups.....
It would also allow for a big difference between attack and defense ships. Defense ships could max out tactical movement, while attack ships would require strategic movement trading off tactical speed to get it.

[This message has been edited by jimbob55 (edited 19 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Unless you can assign minus combat movement to an engine I don't think you can get fast strat/slow tac without a lot of modifications, like jimbob suggested.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I have found the ancient galaxy to be pretty empty. When you have 225 Systems generated - alot of the time colony ships will run out of supply before finding a decent place to land.
I would think that modifying the ancient galaxy would be an easy way to create a more empty map.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All ships would require a 'max number of engines' much lower than it is at the moment. Strategic move engines would provide both tactical and strategic movement, but ships can only get a certain amount of tactical move from their engine (note, only one engine). Change all engine tech levels to provide 5 move, 50kt, cost of 5 normal engines. All ships to have max strategic engines 1. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shouldn't matter how many engines the ship has, tactical movement would be 1/2 strategic movement +afterburner bonus.

With 5 movement on the map, the ships would get 3 in combat, which is the usual speed of ships in normal SE4.

With the map editor, it would be possible to make a hyperspace system of wormholes, so ships could go five or six squares on a budget of two strategic movement points (into hyperspace, then out). An instant death black hole effect in hyperspace would prevent ships from hiding there, so every living ship would be in normal space.

It would be a ton of work to make warp points like that, but it might work.

1) create a new system beside each normal system. Give it a black hole movement of 10, and a damage of 10000.
2) make a warppoint from every sector in the normal system to the equivalent sector in the hyperspace system.
3) make a pile of wormholes from each hyperspace sector to the 9x9 grid of sectors in normal space closest to the "in" point. You can skip squares that are closer than 2 movement points from the in point. (Leaving 56 holes to make for each sector)
4) This allows capital ships to go 4 squares on 2 movement points. So they effectively have 4 movement strategic, and 1 movement combat. (But its a damn big job, and requires the edited map)

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All ships would require a 'max number of engines' much lower than it is at the moment. Strategic move engines would provide both tactical and strategic movement, but ships can only get a certain amount of tactical move from their engine (note, only one engine). Change all engine tech levels to provide 5 move, 50kt, cost of 5 normal engines. All ships to have max strategic engines 1. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shouldn't matter how many engines the ship has, tactical movement would be 1/2 strategic movement +afterburner bonus.

With 5 movement on the map, the ships would get 3 in combat, which is the usual speed of ships in normal SE4.

With the map editor, it would be possible to make a hyperspace system of wormholes, so ships could go five or six squares on a budget of two strategic movement points (into hyperspace, then out). An instant death black hole effect in hyperspace would prevent ships from hiding there, so every living ship would be in normal space.

It would be a ton of work to make warp points like that, but it might work.

1) create a new system beside each normal system. Give it a black hole movement of 10, and a damage of 10000.
2) make a warppoint from every sector in the normal system to the equivalent sector in the hyperspace system.
3) make a pile of wormholes from each hyperspace sector to the 9x9 grid of sectors in normal space closest to the "in" point. You can skip squares that are closer than 2 movement points from the in point. (Leaving 56 holes to make for each sector)
4) This allows capital ships to go 4 squares on 2 movement points. So they effectively have 4 movement strategic, and 1 movement combat. (But its a damn big job, and requires the edited map)

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I was under the impression that you wanted a tactical engine that operated like a normal engine, but gave combat speed as well (i.e., each had 1 movement + 1 combat, so if you mount 6 you get 6 strategic and 9 tactical), that is why I though you couldn't do it. If you are going to just use 1 "afterburner" engine then it is do-able, but not terribly new (I've used them for a long time).

Here's one other idea that may let you make a difference between strategic/tactical engines... as you are not only talking about speed but also manuverabilty, you can add Defence to hit plus/minus to engines... since the ability now stack with others not of the same family. This can also be applied to sensors, giving certain types Offence to hit plus.

As far as the "Fast/slow" ship, I was refering to someone's idea of making the Tac-Engines a normal type of engine (presumably that you can only buy one of) that operated like a normal engine w/o move & bonus but with combat speed... for instance:

6 Quantum Engines: Speed 9/5 (1 move/3 bounus)
add afterburner (0 move/0 bounus/ 5 combat): speed becomes 6/8 (i.e., slow(er) strategic/ fast(er) tactical)

Personally, I would like to see combat speed stackable, just give all afterburners the "one per vechicle"... that way we can add bonuses to engines, vechicle hulls, etc.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I was thinking of the different engine capabilities.
I think it would be interesting to have 3 engines at each level that would have the restrictions on mixing types that the bonus moves now have. You would have one that would give the normal moves, one that would give more strategic but less combat moves and one that would give less strategic but more combat moves.
I've tried but I don't think it is possible to do this. Anyone have any ideas?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nitram Draw:
Understand.
Will the lifesupport use supplies every turn? If so that is a good alternative to modifying the fighter engines, although I know someone will find a work around, we're such devious buggers http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the general Idea, but I've been looking in the data files and can't figure out how to make it do that. I can't find anything to do with "supplies used per turn" instead of "per use".

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimbob55:
For making tactical fighters change the fighter hulls to allow 1 engine max.
Only have 1 type of fighter engine for strategic move then a series of 'Tactical High power engines' which are effectively 3 or 4Kt afterburners with bonus tac move of 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Interceptor tac engine gives 9 move, takes 10kt or whatever.
This would allow for VERY fast reduced armament interceptors or heavy armed slow fighters....... Both of which would require a carrier to make significant strategic moves.
Adjust the supply cost so that a fully loaded heavy fighter can only carry enough supplies for 2 tactical engagements (30 moves + say 20 shots of an expensive weapon).

Giving bases movement on the strategic scale makes them count as ships as far as score is concerned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems reasonable. I don't think that fighters should have the range to roam all over a solar system. A fighter's speed and manueverablility are (in the real world) counteracted by their limited range. Otherwise, we wouldn't even need carriers at all!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The workaround for fighter resupply is the same as the workaround for resupplying ships: Build a dedicated supply frigate with either solar panels / quantuum generator or lots of supply storage and fleet them with the fighters (effectively a fighter tender rather than carrier)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see no reason to change this; it is simply a strategic decision of the player. Remember, they have to pay maintenance on that resupply ship. If you want to leave fighters their, then you have to resupply them somehow. Some think that you should have to have a carrier for this, to which I reply, "Have you ever heard of mid-air refueling?".

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

I like the idea of limited range for the fighters. It is possible to do. Fighters can be made with just an afterburner and you get no strategic move, only combat move. You have no supplies though.
Removing the standard move from the fighter engines means they can only be placed away from a planet by a carrier or transport and gives them supply. This seems like the best alternative.
I have not seen the AI use fighters to fly around in a system,has anyone else seen the AI use fighters this way?
This change would put the AI on a more even playing field against humans who use fighters to patrol a system.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

@dumbluck:

I havn't seen anything yet using supplies per turn. But you could generally do this for the fighters:
Give the cockpit an extra ability to solar generate 1 (or 0 if possible) organic. Pilots have to poo some times. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Latter just came to my mind to actually use supplies EVERY turn, since the generation happens every turn.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

QUOTE:
IRL a new "solar sail" has been invented, it uses plasma to "inflate" a magnetic field to create a huge reflective bubble. The WORKING model is the size of a pickel jar and can create a sail 1/2 a square mile!
/QUOTE

*narf!*

Do you have a URL for this?

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
IRL a new "solar sail" has been invented, it uses plasma to "inflate" a magnetic field to create a huge reflective bubble. The WORKING model is the size of a pickel jar and can create a sail 1/2 a square mile!

*narf!*

Do you have a URL for this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/head...p19aug99_1.htm

This article only describes a proposed prototype, not a working model, but the article is 21 months old, so it may have been built by now.



[This message has been edited by capnq (edited 21 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Thanx for the URl... veeeeeery impressive technology, want to get me one of those.

I was looking for that article using sarch engines arlier, and although I didn't find it, I ran into some other intresting propulsion pages... Apparntly they already hav a 10x mor fficient replacement for the ion engine (like the one used on the "Elite" DS1 mission.)


&lt;HOMER SIMPSON&gt;
How come you guys can put a man on the moon but you can't make my shoes smell good?
&lt;/HOMER SIMPSON&gt;


------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

You may have noticed, the "e" key on this keyboard isn't too good http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

------------------
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Uh, I think so, Brain, but balancing a family and a career ... oooh, it's all too much for me. "

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

My mod idea has to do with engines. Make a Buzzard Ram Jet. Attach the solar collector ability to an engine. It would collect less than sollar collectors of course.

As for the tactical/strategic engines discussed earlier. I think it would make sense to have differentt fuel consumptions. A ctactical engine is going to consume more fuel so it is faster but shorter range, but are faster in tactical combat. Strategic on the other hand has to do with long term voyages which are more fuel efficient but give few tactical movement points.

I didn't read the whole thread so this might just be a repeat.

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

This is what I got so far in my mod:

There are 6 propulsion technologies:

Chemicle Rockets levels 1-3 at 20K each, Start level 1


Electrical-Based Propulsion levels 1-5 at 50k
Ion Drive 1-5
Ether-Ram 1-5, needs physics 2
Jacketed-Photon Drive 1-5, needs pyhsics 3
Quantum Drive 1-5, needs physics 5


Nuclear-Based Propulsion levels 1-5 at 50K
Fission Rocket 1-5
Fusion Rocket 1-5, needs physics 1
Fusion Drive 1-5, needs physics 2
Contra-Terrene Drive (Antimatter) 1-5, needs physics 4


Resonance-Based Propulsion levels 1-3 at 100K - Ruin's Technology
Resonance Engines 1-3


Gravity-Based Propulsion levels 1-5 at 50K, needs astropyhsics 3 & physics 4
Gravity Drive 1-5


Solar-Based Propulsion levels 1-3 at 25K
Solar Sail 1-3, needs construction 1-3 & astrophysics 1
Plasma Sail 1-3, needs physics 1-3 & astrophysics 2


What do they do?
Chemicle Rockets are moderate speed & HUGE fuel usage (i.e., 60/50/40)... improved levels reduce supply usage & lower costs.

Electrical-Based Propulsion are high efficiency, low speed engines. Photon-Jacketed engines get a 1 movement boost $ quantum Drives are 50% faster. improved levels reduce costs signifagantly.

Nuclear-based propulsion is fast with high supply usage. Each successive type (except Fusion Drives) become faster. Anti-matter is 2.5x speed! improved levels (especially for Fusion Drives) have better fuel usage.

Resonance-Based propulsion is a moderate speed, high-efficiency engine that can only be found at ruins. Improved levels reduce costs and mass.

Gravity-Based Propulsion is a quick, effieient engine. Improved levels raise efficency/speed and reduce mass/cost slightly.

Solar-Based Propulsion is a VERY slow, Extremely efficient drive (0 for sails, 3 for plasma). improved levels reduce costs/mass for solar-sails and give a slight speed bounus to plasma-sails.

Feel free to use anything you like. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


In addition, I don't have "afterburners" because I use that ability for my "Engineering" componet. But I am adding hit penalties/bounuses to engines. The faster (brute force engines, particularly Nuclear... but also gravity to a lesser extent, plus resonance) get a penalty to be hit... while the lower electrical-based and solar-based in particular, get a bounus to be hit. (solar Sail will be at +50%). Oh, one Last thing, I treat Solar-Sails as armour so they get blown away first!

[This message has been edited by Trachmyr (edited 21 May 2001).]

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Regarding fast strategic move without fast tactical move - you can use a combo of an emergency propulsion-type component, combined with a cheap/small "damage control" component that repairs one component per strategic turn.

PvK

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Regarding fast strategic move without fast tactical move - you can use a combo of an emergency propulsion-type component, combined with a cheap/small "damage control" component that repairs one component per strategic turn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be perfect for a Humans-only game... any way to make the AI use the Emergency propulsion often enough?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Well, perhaps if they designed a ship that had only emergency prop, damage control, and afterburners, they would use the emergency prop to get around.

I haven't tried it, though.

PvK

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

Has anybody ever caught an AI using their emerg. components?

IE. seen a ship with a busted emerg. supply or propulsion component?

Re: Modder brainstorming session
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by suicide_junkie:
Has anybody ever caught an AI using their emerg. components?

IE. seen a ship with a busted emerg. supply or propulsion component?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

big negative there. I dont think they know how.. however they have learned to use stelar manip fairly well, they might be able to do this. It also might depend on conditions, IE out of supply and returning to base, or in a hostile system and retreating.. really dont know how the AI is coded this way.