Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>However, I didn't and I don't know anything about those you mentioned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, now you do... so have fun whomping those overseas friends of yours with your elite strategic skillz http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Of course those of you not so bright or strategically minded might consider it adequate but when my golden retriever beat it he said it sucked too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Damned impressive dog you got there, dude. You selling any puppies? http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

"Well, look I understand the difficulty in doing creative type things like this. However, you can't advertise you are selling something and then not deliver what you advertised and people paid their money to get. I don't care if is deliberate on their part or not they still have an obligation to provide the product they said they would. I have a hard time believing that if Aaron had really wanted to he could have finished this game in more than 8 entire months. Entire games have been started from scratch and finished in less time. Problem is he has the money already so he has little incentive now to finish this game the way he said he would."

TC/IP wasn't advertised nor was it promised. As with all of the other suggestions sent to MM, Aaron filed it under 'to do'. We still may yet see it. Implying you were decieved is pretty stupid when it was never on any features page. He said he was working on it, if the wait is too long for you too bad, other things have higher priorities.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it looks like you are lacking in patience and are having a public snit over it. Because they didn't do things to satisfy your wants.

There was no set promise for TCP/IP play. Only that they were working on it. Obviously, they ran into some snags. The map editor was mentioned at that time as well and it only came out a few weeks ago.

Btw, care to support your claim about your golden retriever? Or were you just spewing insults in advance of anyone who might just dare to disagree with your assessment?



------------------
--
"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Other companies continuely promise features and then don't deliver, take the customers money and run. Aaron and MM is not doing that. Review the history of support for SEIII for additional support. Aaron and MM have set the standard for cusotmer support.

So your attack on Aaron, MM, and Shrapnel for lack of customer support invalidates all you other arguments. Your crediability is non existent and personally I do not believe any of your claims on beating the AI on high difficulty with your hands tied. You implied that you haven't played a game since before Christmas, which means you have not played against the new AI. And being a blunt person, I will just call you a liar.

And the only reason I responded to this message was to show my appreciation for the outstanding customer support I have received from Aaron.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Well I for one am still waiting for simcity 3000 to get patched with all the things that were posted on their site over a year ago as coming in a patch. Have yet to see one patch for that game. (now here is a game that did not live up to it's prior Version. They made some nicer building pictures but the map editor is worst then the one in simcity 2000. they took out all the cool arcos but show them on the box cover.) man now that game was a total rip off.

[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 25 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I'd like to appilogize for my rant earlier but this guy rubs me the wrong way. This HAS always been a freindly forum but this thread and it's creator are changing that and it's the PITS!!! Okay hes upset because theirs no TCP/IP support to witch he beleives was promised him, got news for you it was MENTIONED not PROMISED there is a big diference there. I could say I'll send you world peace for your b-day but I won't because I can't I don't have time to solve every problem in the world, same goes for Aaron can you imagine how he would feel if he read this! He's benn called slow a backroom dealer and a LIAR!! How dare anyone say such a thing about anyone, let he who is perfect throw the first stone.

BTW Blizzard one of the largest and most influential programing companies has taken 3 YEARS from planing to present to send out War Craft 3 because they believe that if you take your time it will be better in the long run. Who here hasn't played StarCraft hmmm? It by the way took 4 Years to make.

My advice to Aaron would be take your time have a life go out on occasion as long as you keep us posted once and a while We'll still be here to defent your image from people like this who would throw the first stone by false beleif that they are perfect.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

No, it looks like you are lacking in patience and are having a public snit over it.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Yeah, I am lacking in patience I only waited for 8 months without saying anything. Oh and the thing about the dog was a...well it was a joke. Apparently you have about as much a sense of humor as you do an intellect which is none. Many of you really need to quit playing this piece of crap game and go read a book. Then perhaps you could get your IQ's higher than your shoe sizes.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Was it ever really advertised? I only remeber it being mentioned as 'planned'. Post me a quote and I may feel otherwise.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

What's the difference? Read the malfador news where at both Thanksgiving and Christmas Aaron said he was working on the multiplayer for the next patch. That was 6 months ago. You can't just spout features you intend to put in to get everybody to buy the game based on those claims then not follow through. If somebody sold you a house and said they would fix the roof and you moved in in good faith and then they didn't fix the roof. Not only would that be unethical as hell but they would be in violation of a verbal contract and would get their asses sued off. That is exactly what happened here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually there's quite a bit of difference between an actual advertisement/contract and a list of features that may be implemented. There are laws that govern advertising, but I don't think a todo list is covered anywhere under contract law. It might depend on how the list itself was presented etc etc but I digress. If you want to get into the realm of contract law and other legalities, well nowhere in the those two news updates does it specifically state that either of the two updates in question refer to TCP/IP implementation of multiplayer games. The first refers to a utility to assist with muliplayer games which I guess is the PBEM tool, I can't be sure since I've never really taken a look at it though. The second update only refers to multiplayer enhancement.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Close your eyes, listen to the sound of your breathing..... in, out, in, out...... be one with the sound of your breathing. Relax. Your mind is a calm pool.....

You like it, or you don't. If you do, play on. If you don't then, don't play. It's simple. You don't need to have the Last word. It's only a game.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora,
Just as a note; none of the mods in mod pack or my mods (ResearchDesign or Klingons, Romulans, Shadows, etc) actually give the AI an advantage. All they do is better optimise the way in which the AI operates - eg equips ships, does its research, reacts to political overtures, etc.

Now you can argue (with some justification perhaps) that this means that the game wasnt fully complete, but, the game architecture is far beyond any other game I have played.
Also, the willingness to undertake patches clearly demonstrates Aarons committment to the game.

The main thrust of my comment here is that the game should not be written off and assigned to the dustbin - any comments you make in this direction are unfounded.

I believe that you should limit your comments to the lack of TCP/IP support (which I would like to see at some point too) - most of your other comments reflect a lack of play experience with the game or the mods that are available for it, and appreciation of what has been done to date.

As a final comment, I too was reading the forum prior to the games release and noted the cries from people to have the game released as soon as possible, in whatever shape is was. I believe that Aaron responded to these demands to some extent and this made me wary initially of purchasing the game - I didnt actually order a copy until the second patch was released around Christmas time and I was able to assess peoples feedback in the forum.

Since I received my copy though, I have greatly enjoyed the game and many of the mods, despite some issues, and have not touched another game since.
For me (a very picky gamer), this places the game in the same Category as MOO2 and Civilisation in the addictiveness stakes.

As I said earlier, feel free to give your opinion regarding TCP/IP (in a non-imflammatory manner), but, dont cane the whole game - particularly if you havent experienced all of its potential (via mods, PBEM, etc).

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora: if you want to play Online, you don't need to wait anymore for the TCP/IP feature in SE4! Simply go and play Homeworld or Imperium Galactica II, or wait for MOO3 and Stars! Supernova, or something else fantastic game.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Very well said God Emperor. Your skill with diplomacy is without second.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Actually I have had some time to cool off from this as I took in Pearl Harbor (pretty good, you should check it out).

Kagetora, like everyone on this forum, has a right to his opinion. At the time I reacted rather harshly to his accusations of myself and Aaron being unethical, immoral, crimnial, and such and attempting to assert that we lied to him. I will not apologize for my reaction to that as everyone who knows me knows that I try to be more than fair in every situation.

As far as TCP/IP goes it is something we would like to finish but it is not something we promised at the time of sale and is not listed as a feature of the game. I never stated otherwise. Part of the problem is we are sometimes too open with our fans and some people don't know how to deal with this. When a new load comes out in beta I actually post the full history file showing to the world all of the bugs that are fixed instead of hiding them like many companies do. We also try to help the folks working on the game. I have acted as a medium on many occasions when a specific person had a suggestion on fixing the game and somehow Aaron missed his email. I have been working extensively with Doug Fields to get Play By Web off the ground and worked with him and Aaron to help fix the command line problems with 1.35. I also worked with cdmag to get the modders work recognized (as they deserver) in a larger venue.

So eve though part of me is still upset I will offer you a deal. If you really feel that slighted please drop me an email with another Shrapnel Game of your choice and I will mail it to you. Now I am not admitting fault by doing this and I don't plan on doing this for everyone else. But obviously some bad blood has happenned here that is not good for the community, and our community needs every player.

So if your serious about resolving this instead of shouting and calling names just drop me an email at rdarnese@shrapnelgames.com.

Thanks.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Richard, that is very generous of you.

There is an irony in this, really. Someone who felt equally slighted, but complained politely, would certainly not have been rewarded like this. But Kagetori was extremely rude, and he gets the unheard of break.

Can you see how this would seem to encourage discourtesy?

I fully understand the pragmatic reasons why this happens, it just seems bitterly ironic.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Actually it depends. If someone came to me with a legitimate concern and I felt we had misled them then I would have done the same thing probably.

Problem is for this specific issue there would be no way to convince me of that rationally because we didn't do anything wrong.

One problem with arguments like this is once the rhetoric gets to a certain level neither side can find a "safe" way out without loosing face. At least this way maybe he will feel more comfortable to drop this and if that costs me a free game that's no big deal.

However your right, if I saw a group of copycats spring out of this I would probably be less forgiving to the new guys http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif.

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Richard, without a doubt, your one of the most forthright company guys I have ever had the fortune to interact with. What you are doing here for this guy goes why beyond customer service, and for that, you deserve to be recognized.

It is an absolute shame that, at times, people feel the need to be difficult about something that they should otherwise use more diplomacy with.

I for one am thankful for having this game, and for ALL the work you and Aaron have done to keep us up to date on game developments. I lucked out finding this game back in August and have been supportive of it ever since.

I remember when BOTF came out, and the developers at Microprose got bombed hard because the game did not measure up to the fans expectation. They go so inundated by hate mail, for an otherwise awesome game that even to this day is par non, the best star trek game out, that they just simply said no more help. You ungrateful little people are on your own now. Aaron and you have not done this despite the set backs, and for that, I am very grateful.

Space Empire IV provides far more than just game play. It provides growth, creativity, and expandability. This is far more than any other game has to offer, and that is a fact. Sure in time it will have TCI/IP play, but it was never a guarantee, and if we get it, fantastic, if we don't, no sweat. Eventually, perhaps in SEV, we will, and that is something I am prepared to wait for.

I love this game, and I know that I am not alone or else you would not have over 60 fan made races with unique ship sets, Mods, or other fan based supported items.

Please do not let the opinion of one person who chose to voice it in such a manner as to ignite a flame war, over the value of what so many others have placed upon this game. You are a good company exec, and Shrapnel Games is a great company. Aaron chose very wisely in partnering up with you, and we all know this to be true.

Keep up the good work Richard, and please let Aaron know that he too is very much appreciated.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora,
Just as a note; none of the mods in mod pack or my mods (ResearchDesign or Klingons, Romulans, Shadows, etc) actually give the AI an advantage. All they do is better optimise the way in which the AI operates - eg equips ships, does its research, reacts to political overtures, etc.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well as I said I haven't tried any of the mods, I really only wanted the game to play TCP/IP with friends. I am not sure how you can be certain exactly how the mods do anything unless you programmed it yourself, although I can't disagree more on giving the game itself credit for completion based on mods they didn't even produce. However, perhaps I should try one and see for myself.

Which mod is the best one and where can I download it?

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
... However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. .... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but I can't take this BS any more. I've seen this drivel on too many newsGroups/web Boards before to be impressed. The old "I'm consulting an attorney" bluff.... yeah right, and the moon is green. A lawyer will charge $50-$100 just to hear the problem and the $$'s only get bigger from there. Perhaps you might get an explanation from your friend as to why he thinks that is sensible for a $40 computer game.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

But Kagetori was extremely rude, and he gets the unheard of break.

Can you see how this would seem to encourage discourtesy?&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually, considering I have been called several actual names including one that could be considered a profanity by puritanical types and the general response toward me here has been the basic equivelent of go jump off a short pier I think I have been quite courteous.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

The old "I'm consulting an attorney" bluff.... yeah right, and the moon is green. A lawyer will charge $50-$100 just to hear the problem and the $$'s only get bigger from there. Perhaps you might get an explanation from your friend as to why he thinks that is sensible for a $40 computer game.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Him and Richard got in a big fight on another board and he got pissed off enough to call an attorney. I am already being accused of being him when I am not so I don't really care to defend or even talk about what he is doing.

However, it's not the 40 bucks that matters. According to him they are considering a class action suit which would return anybodies money who choose to join the suit. Including any of you. He would also recoup all attorney's fees and even his expenses if he wins the case. Many attorney's will take such cases without pay and take pay upon winning.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Well as I said I haven't tried any of the mods, I really only wanted the game to play TCP/IP with friends.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!

Technically, PBEM and even more the PBW, are TCP/IP, since they use the internet.

[metaphor]Stop complaining that you can't bike anywhere without pushing a few pedals.[/metaphor]
Using the Play-by-Web system is only an e-mail and a few extra mouse clicks per turn away!

Now click this link to Play-by-Web and e-mail the author about starting a game!

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Him and Richard got in a big fight on another board and he got pissed off enough to call an attorney. I am already being accused of being him when I am not so I don't really care to defend or even talk about what he is doing.

However, it's not the 40 bucks that matters. According to him they are considering a class action suit which would return anybodies money who choose to join the suit. Including any of you. He would also recoup all attorney's fees and even his expenses if he wins the case. Many attorney's will take such cases without pay and take pay upon winning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I saw the discussion on CGO forum and it was "handbags at 20 paces" stuff - petty, nitpicking and irritating to anybody with a shred of common sense. Oh, and in fact just like this thread (except for my Posts of course http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif )

This is what I expect from 5 year old children. And this "threat" is just more of the same BS, "Bwaaah, I'm not getting my way" so I'm going smash the game board over.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
Which mod is the best one and where can I download it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without getting involved in the argument, I will give input here. Start by patching to Version 1.35 if you haven't already, then get the TDM Modpack Version 1.72 from the Scenario/Mod forum Space Empires: IV - AI Races/Ship Sets thread. There are other great mods, but this one is a good starting point as it does not change the technology in the game and can therefore be used with several other mods. It does improve the AI scripting and it adds several excellent races.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I remember an article in one of the gaming magazines in which a columnist said that the constant bickering over trivia was killing the niche strategy market. Now I'm new to the turn-based strategy world; SEIV is my first such game so I don't know how it is with other games. But I can see that the profits from niche games must be tiny (and are much more likely to be losses). If we want these games to prosper or even to exist we need to be supportive and understanding. For the most part, this is a very supportive and understanding community.

Law suits are very expensive in time, money and mental energy. A law suit could easily cause a game to cease to exist. I really would like the SE series to continue because I'm having so much fun playing PBEM.

I think we all want the same thing: gaming goodness and fun. I also think some of us have chosen tactics that are detrimental to that end. Unless the game being played is not computer based...

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I remember an article in one of the gaming magazines in which a columnist said that the constant bickering over trivia was killing the niche strategy market.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I understand where you are coming from. But, if I hire a contractor to remodel my kitchen and I pay him up front and he doesn't put any hardware on any of the drawers or cabinets, that is trivia to you because it isn't your kitchen. However, if it was your kitchen you would feel no remorse about sueing the person to get him to finish the job, nor would you worry you might put a contractor out of business either. Just because these people make something that is entertainment and we like doesn't mean they shouldn't be held to certain standards of ethics. They get away with exaggerating and outright lying about their products far too much already and I am not just talking about this company or game in particular. How many games do you buy that you are really satisfied with? That do exactly what they say or that have adequate AI? Very very few. You can't misrepresent your product and then sell it, that is fraud. There is absolutely no difference legally between them saying something on this site, in an email, in the newletter or advertising it on the game box or a tv commercial. That is a verbal contract that must be abided by.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
SO GO PLAY WITH YOUR HUMAN FRIENDS ALREADY!&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you ordered a gun and got a hammer you would indeed have a good case. If you order a computer game and get a computer game.... The comparison doesn't fly.

You bought the game based on the fact that it might get TCP/IP sometime in the future, it hasn't yet but it might one day so you are SOL for the moment. You can be patient and wait, or forget the whole thing, sell the game on e-bay, take Shrapnel offered game, if you push it enough maybe get your money back etc. Not un-reasonable options.

How many hours have you played SE4? I don't believe you didn't enjoy playing at least one game vs the AI at the start. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. I guess you received some value for that original $40 - $10 or $20 at least.

Personally I could spend $40 on sushi and beer in an hour. TCP/IP or not I think I have recieved a reasonable return on my original investment of $40 over the Last 9 months or so. I played SE3, SE4 and hope to play SE5 in future. $40 every couple of years seems a very reasonable investment to me.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

ps. The kitchen analogy is also an over the top and exagerated comparison.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Your analogy is flawed, K. (And that's not a personal attack, simply a debating terminology here) You got the gun that was advertised. The package was clearly labeled that the gun did not include a telescopic sight at this time, but that they might in the future. And you have decided to read this as a promise when no promise was ever stated, only a possiblity.

However, it is good to see you express the thought that you might try some of the mods in the future. I think this will greatly improve your enjoyment of the game.

Also if you would like to check out http://seiv.pbw.cc I would be happy to oblige you with a game against real live humans. It's not as fast as TCP/IP I guess, but I have a game there that is up to turn 45 in three weeks. At this rate we should be well past 100 turns in 6 months. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif

Geo

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kagetora:
I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too)



------------------
mottlee@gte.net
"Kill em all let God sort em out"

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

No you misunderstand. I don't actually use that address to send any email, neither does he. We just put that address in when asked for on Boards and such because a lot of places Online take that address and put you on the junk email list of the earth. I never even log on that address nor do I read any of the mail that goes there. It never crossed my mind somebody like Richard might do what he did and misunderstand. He shouldn't have done it in the first place.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Kagetora,
I've been thinking about your claim. If I was on a jury I would find against you. You can't use weak AI as a claim that you were ripped off since you had played the demo before purchasing and knew the state of the AI.

So your entire claim rests on the "promise" of TCP/IP. But you have presented no evidence in this thread that there was a promise of TCP/IP especially a promise with a definate date. I wasn't here then so I don't know but the other posters make it clear that there was no committment to TCP/IP. Instead there was a list of possible enhancements. User preferance for other enhancements has put TCP/IP way down the list.

I would find you guilty of being a foolish consumer however. If TCP/IP was so important to you, you should have waited to purchase until that was truly available. You seem to have familiarity with the software and game marketplace so your claim of taking a to-do list for a commitment seems disingenuous to me.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Kagetora:
I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

Originally posted by mottlee:
IF you share an E-mail address YOU must take take some of the falt in this also for there is no way to tell just WHO is sending E-mails IF you share one (also you can get into a lot of hot water)(and lots of stink too)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would like to initiate a debate upon the Duality of the Kagetora/BillB entity. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

Up to now the followers of the debate have on balance believed that there were two entities involved - mostly based on the forthright claims of K.

The two are:
1) BillB - a wildly inconsitent entity - swinging from saying what a great game this is, to suddenly "this sucks, I want my TCP/IP, I'm calling my lawyer". I postulate that this entity be labelled the "Dark Side" of the K/BB Duality.

2) Kagetora- consistantly demanding his perceived rights regardless of reasonableness and scale of $'s expended. Has maintained a consistant argument in face of many unbelievers. And fervently claims to not be BillB (and who in their right mind would want to be associated with BB's posting record?).

What is the evidence:

a) They share an e-mail account. For junk only K says.
b) Their opinions are very similar.
c) They do not post on the same web Boards at the same time.
d) However the tone of posting is subtely different.

After review of the circumstantial evidence this author will continue to believe in the separate nature of these two entities until decisive evidence is brought forward to prove they are one and the same.

However the many followers of the K/BB Duality theory will not be convinced.

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Resident Alien (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I've been thinking about your claim. If I was on a jury I would find against you. You can't use weak AI as a claim that you were ripped off since you had played the demo before purchasing and knew the state of the AI.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well what you say is true. However, you are blaming me for being gullible and getting conned and letting the person who conned me off the hook. I had no reason to believe they wouldn't do as they said they would. In retrospect I certainly should have waited until the TCP/IP feature was actually in. But, I had no reason to think it would take so long either. I figured I could take the time to learn the game and be prepared for real opponents when it did get put in. The design of the game is pretty complex.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

a) They share an e-mail account. For junk only K says.
b) Their opinions are very similar.
c) They do not post on the same web Boards at the same time.
d) However the tone of posting is subtely different.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I hate being forced to defend myself when I haven't even done anything. However, as to the email that can be proved quite easily. The address is puzzlesthewill@aol.com bomb away to your hearts content. Would I do that if I actually used that address?

We are friends, we have discussed this issue at length and we both got fed up about it at the same time. Thus why we have similar opinions. He has never posted on this board and I have never posted on that one. I haven't even posted on this one myself before the Last few days since probably December sometime. As I said before I just check in periodically to get the new patches and find out if the TCP/IP is done yet.

The tone is subjective and you will have to judge for yourself. I am not saying anything further to "prove" I am myself. This should never have even been a topic of conversation and wouldn't be if Richard had not violated my privacy without cause.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

You go to a software store (i.e. Best buy) and buy a computer game. Take It home but find you are not happy with that game. So you try to get best buy to give you your money back. SInce the game is opened they will not give you a refund nor will they let you get another game in it's place. They will exchange it for another copy only if it is damaged upon opening. (Shrapnel has also done this)
Best buy has no way of knowing if you just copied the game and are trying to steal it by getting your money back. So they have a policy in place that says no refunds on opened software. The fact that Shrapnel is willing to replace your game with some other author's game is in my mind beyond and above anything you would get from a retailer or even most big named software developers.

As for being a minion or not very bright (I think that is what You said in an earlier post) I consider That I am very Intelligent as I work in the computer field and have been playing computer games since they were written in basic and had no display. just words on the the screen. Nor am I a minion of any game company. I play real time games and I play turn based games. When I want to play without planing and time to think about my next action, I play real time games like Myth. When I want to sit back and role play or think about my next action, turn based games are the way to go. So as a turned based game, SEIV is a very good game. (I could send you a box full of games that suck and were put out by big companies with a lot of statements for things they were going to add posted right on the shipping box that they never did.) Unless you are like me and just like to try new games just to see what they are, then you should never buy one just because you think they will add something in the future. You sould buy it because you like the demo/sharware/prior vers. So if you are looking for Web play games, then you should stick to buying thoses that release with it included. Unless they stated that they for sure will have something by such and such date and then don't provide it, there really is no legal case. (I have not seen anyplace were this was stated that Web play would be added with any actual insurance.)
If there is
then post the site locations and I will be glad to review them. This is the best action to take rather then post that we are lacking in brain area or a false statement that your dog can beat the game.(A MORE BELIEVEABLE STATEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN: My 3yr old can beat this game.) which results in others judging you as either being a child in which case you would have no understanding of the legal system (if this is the case then I for one excuse you and withdraw any and all my Posts in this matter.) or that you are an adult with a child like mentality in which case, I really don't know what to say.

As for being the same person, I have never been to the other site so I can not make any statement for this nor do I plan on trying to. I am just sticking with what you have personally wrote.



[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

. If you order a computer game and get a computer game.... The comparison doesn't fly.

You bought the game based on the fact that it might get TCP/IP sometime in the future, it hasn't yet but it might one day so you are SOL for the moment. You can be patient and wait, or forget the whole thing, sell the game on e-bay, take Shrapnel offered game, if you push it enough maybe get your money back etc. Not un-reasonable options.

How many hours have you played SE4? I don't believe you didn't enjoy playing at least one game vs the AI at the start. If you didn't care, you wouldn't be posting. I guess you received some value for that original $40 - $10 or $20 at least.

Personally I could spend $40 on sushi and beer in an hour. &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well, I would argue that a disk that has a game on it that I can't participate in, in any manner that I wished to when I bought it or that any other game company would even consider appropriate, I didn't get a computer game I got a coaster for my 45 bucks.

I am not sure Richard was offering the game to me. If he says he was that would satisfy me. He hasn't responded yet. Look you are obviously young so lacking in experience about such things. But, if you watch the ads for all that crap on TV late at night I can assure you 90 percent of that stuff doesn't work at all the way they say it does. They even give a money back guarantee which this company didn't even do. They make their money because they know 99.9 percent of the people who get it and find out it doesn't work aren't going to bother to rebox it and send it back. Nor are any of them going to sue for a lousy 20 bucks. However, that does not make selling a faulty product suddenly ethical. It only takes one person to get mad enough to do something about it.

No I think the kitchen analogy was quite apt. I would even stretch it further. If I am promised the kitchen by the contractor and he leaves off the hardware he could do as this company is and say. "Well I never promised you hardware for the cabinets" A judge would rule that an assumption that a finished kitchen would have hardware was implied in the contract whether or not they actually said it or not. Regardless of what was actually specifically promised for this game is irrelevant actually. The point is, is this game a finished computer game? Did the company do the finishing? I would say no.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Look I understand okay? You all are arguing with BS logic. If I order a gun from a company and they send me a hammer instead. You can't tell me I shouldn't be pissed because I can still defend myself with a hammer. It's not the same thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They gave you the damn gun, now go get the bullets and play-by-web with your friends.

That is what you want, right? To play humans? Then go ahead. Nobody's stopping you, and certainly not SE4.EXE.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Also if you would like to check out http://seiv.pbw.cc I would be happy to oblige you with a game against real live humans. It's not as fast as TCP/IP I guess, but I have a game there that is up to turn 45 in three weeks. At this rate we should be well past 100 turns in 6 months.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

I have certainly done marathons before. The main problem I see with this is you have to have reliable people that keep the turns moving. My biggest concern is I would spend months and as soon as I start beating somebody they would quit. With TCP/IP my friends and I could play an entire game in a weekend or 2 weekends at most. It's just too much time and effort for me any other way. Although, I am happy some of you enjoy it.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Yo, if your friends are willing to all get together to play direct-connect TCP/IP, then why can't they play PBW?
If you're all playing and submitting turns at the same time, there's no reason why you can't do 20 turns a day on PBW.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

rder &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

That says it all.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

You are still comparing apples and carrots.

Software companies never sell finished products, if they did then there would not be any need for patchs, add-ons, etc. Name one game that was sold as a finished product and had everything they said they would like to include when they first made it known they were working on the game.
Even your OS is not completed. (I.E. In Nervada, MS stated that Win98 would end the blue screen of death problem. They turned on the computer and it core dumped. Bill was so red in the face. They released the product 4 weeks later to the gen public but if you bought a new system, it came with it installed. &lt;I have win98 a month before it was released to the stores.&gt; They then later still came out with Version 2 which was still not complete and made a number of patchs.)

Do that and You may just convince me.

I am out, I got a mod to release (no time given so no one will hold me to it.)



[This message has been edited by Dracus (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

This is the best action to take rather then post that we are lacking in brain area or a false statement that your dog can beat the game.(A MORE BELIEVEABLE STATEMENT WOULD HAVE BEEN:&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;


Look I don't know you and you didn't have to post your resume. The thing about my dog was supposed to be a joke. I didn't think it was all that subtle that anybody would think my dog actually played it. I don't question people's intelligence unless I am given reason to. But, to me that is enough reason to.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Yo, if your friends are willing to all get together to play direct-connect TCP/IP, then why can't they play PBW?
If you're all playing and submitting turns at the same time, there's no reason why you can't do 20 turns a day on PBW.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I don't know but 20 turns in a day still seems awfully slow to me. How many hours are you talking here? Have you tried it? I haven't been able to play this game TCP/IP yet but I have played others that way and I would think 8 people could do the first 20 turns anyway in an hour or 2 at most.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

Software companies never sell finished products, if they did then there would not be any need for patchs, add-ons, etc. Name one game that was sold as a finished product and had everything they said they would like to include when they first made it know they work woking on the game.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Actually I buy games that have been out a year or more off the bargain bin all the time and I go to the website to check for patches and while there is usually at least one that fixed bugs, not to finish the game I have gotten games that didn't have any at all. The most recent being Jagged Alliance UB, which is a great game btw. However, you are using faulty logic. I can say that all bank robbers have robbed at least one bank but that doesn't mean it's okay to be a bank robber. They all need to finish their games before they sell them as a matter of ethics.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

I would like to make a suggestion.

Stop responding to Kagetora's comments. He is obviously a very intelligent individual who enjoys controversy. Especially controversy he starts.

My sisters father in-law is an attorney, and I think the threats of a class action law suite are so … well, pathetic. First and foremost, the game is NOT defective. You do not have anything in writing that Promises TCI/IP play. When compared to other games, including PC Gamers review, SEIV scored very hi for its quality and AI.

Kagetora, I really don't care to read any more of your attempts at causing problems. I would hope that Richard would move this thread to an OFF TOPIC forum, as that is where it belongs.


[This message has been edited by Atrocities (edited 26 May 2001).]

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

My sisters father in-law is an attorney, and I think the threats of a class action law suite are so … well, pathetic. First and foremost, the game is NOT defective.&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

Well I think you saying your sisters father in law being an attorney somehow makes you an authority on law to be one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. Thus the rest of your opinion is equally pointless. I also have said it's not me pursuing a lawsuit. Not even sure the person who is will actually do it at this point. They are in the peliminary stages at best.

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

This thread is really getting us no where at this point. Let's move on folks...

------------------
Sarge is coming...

Richard Arnesen
Director of Covert Ops
Shrapnel Games
http://www.shrapnelgames.com

Re: This game is an expensive coaster
 

So eve though part of me is still upset I will offer you a deal. If you really feel that slighted please drop me an email with another Shrapnel Game of your choice and I will mail it to you. Now I am not admitting fault by doing this and I don't plan on doing this for everyone else. But obviously some bad blood has happenned here that is not good for the community, and our community needs every player.

So if your serious about resolving this instead of shouting and calling names just drop me an email at rdarnese@shrapnelgames.com.

Thanks.


Well Richard, that is nice I guess. As I said however, I am not Bill B. I am assuming you think I am because we share an email address purely as a junk mail dump. However, so far the only thing you did to me personally other than not complete this game I paid for, is give out my real name on another board. I think that was foolish, misplaced and wrong but it is unlikely to cause me any suffering. I also would point out I have never shouted or called anybody a name least of all you. However, you enraged my friend and he has actually obtained an attorney. Not sure where that might lead yet. However, are you offering me this game? Are you offering it to him? Both of us? Not sure he would want you to know what his actual name is which you would if he responded to this. I will have to ask him.

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Kagetora (edited 26 May 2001).]