Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks for the info Psycho. I 'll give it a try.
Can't wait for the update PvK.


ggm

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Any news on the AI improvements .. and 3.07, maybe ? ;-)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I expect Proportions AI improvements will only happen in one of two cases:

1) Someone besides me wants to spend time coding and testing them. I am available to explain how things work and give ideas and guidance.

2) I suddenly decide to devote a bunch of time to doing it myself. Might happen some time, but my guess is not. It's not that it's entirely unappealing, just that I have so many other things I'd probably choose to do instead. Hearing about people who would actually play it does increase the odds, though, so thanks very much to everyone who's expressed interest!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

SE IV AI sucks monkey balls. I have worked with it and worked with it and the best I can do is get it to piss me off. When the AI doesn't even follow the game rules, hard coded limits such as One Component Only, or there is no way to correctly tell the AI that you must have X amount of X type of specific type of component or ship, aside from major guess work that only works at X level then is ignored at Y level, modding the AI becomes an escalating source of absolute frustration.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Yes, it requires a lot of patience, guesswork and time for trial and error. We did figure out quite a bit, but still what was we ended up doing was watching what the AI did, then tweaking, then watching what it did, over and over in great detail. Which was actually fun but time consuming and sometimes (or often) frustrating. And yes there are limits on how good it can actually get, and to really challenge an experienced player, it probably needs some unfair advantages.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

One thing that I have mentioned before however, is that the game reloads the AI script each turn. Therefore it would be possible to have an external program modify the AI files between turns, which could yield more "intelligent" AI.

Such a program could read and respond to conditions described by the game in the external log files, and help the AI react better to in-game actions.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Could do, with logging turned on, though what kind of information can SE4 be made to log?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

If you're going to be using an external program, getting info back out will be the tough part.

Perhaps an autohotkey program to use the existing SE4 UI... open all the dialogs and extract all the details into a nice text format.

Then it could run your AI.exe to create an orders file to read... and finally some hammering on the SE4 UI to plug the orders into the game before hitting end turn.


To heck with using the built-in AIs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif How about writing your AI in whatever language you like, and playing with all the options of the human interface?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

HA if we could do that then I would leave the Ministers on and let them do my turns while I sleep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I will make the UI interface if somebody wants to make the AI program.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Do you really think it's feasible to create an interface to read and use the SE4 UI?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Certainly.

The toughest part would be the text recognition, but the fonts are all known, and the text locations are in fixed positions too. (With some simple adjustments for screen resolution, but I already deal with that in the Windowed SE4 tool)

Giving orders should be easy too:
"Select ship X" --> Go to ships list, scroll down until the ship name is found, then click it.
"Move/warp/etc to a location" --> press hotkey, click galaxy map, click coordinates.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I guess I missed the threads on the windowed SE4 tool. What are you using to screen-scrape and manipulate the UI?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

AutoHotKey is what the Windowed SE4 Tool uses.

http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...indowedSE4.zip

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Sweet, SJ. Your Windowed SE4 Tool is great.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Thanks but I don't know what it does. I ran it and it gave me system tray programs. Is there a doc of some sort?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

You only need one copy of it running.
Then launch SE4 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The tray tool will:
1) Remove the black border around the game.
2) Let you click and drag any of the game windows around as if it were a real window.
3) Let you shift-click and CTRL-click in the design screen and the simulator setup, to add or remove 10 (or 50) items at once.

See:
http://imagemodserver.mine.nu/other/...indowedSE4.png

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Oh, and this weekend I made myself a nice OCR program which can tally up the maintenance costs for the PBC game.

One step closer to being able to export all the game data for that external AI.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Aha! Now that is very cool, SJ. I am impressed! Thank you for explaining it to me and attaching the screenshot. Hmmm... very interesting...

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Yo PvK can you give us a list of the new stuff that you added Thanks

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

A list of new stuff I added ... between what versions?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

between ver 3.07 to 3.0x that you have planed

we are still waiting for ver 3.07 to come out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Hey, you actually got me to think about and do a little work on the mod.

Here are some notes on what I've done SO FAR with fighters in 3.0.7 (aka 3.1.0):

Version 3.0 attempted to alter fighter balance and gameplay to require
major research before fighters became as powerful as they are very quickly
in version 2.x. Hitpoints were reduced, the engines and supply reworked,
electronic warfare made expensive, shields changed from damage absorbers
to hit-spoiling deflectors, and rate of fire was halved as a way to get
them to swoop in and out and make anti-fighter fighter designs less
destructive against ships. Well, it added up to a much more of a nerf
than I intended. I finally got around to addressing all of this in version
3.0.7.

I wanted to preserve some of the neat ideas in 3.0, though, and engines
were one. The new combined engine components are nice in that they allow
more engine power to give combat bonuses, which can't be done with
separate components. But it also gave me many components, and I didn't
want a vast number of them to support the whole range of fighter sizes
from 15 to 45 kT. In 3.0 however, this meant very slow larger fighters,
which doesn't make sense. Eventually I decided scale mounts were the
solution. Note that although in terms of actual acceleration, it might
be only proportionally more difficult (and so, entirely possible) to
accelerate a small fighter or a large bomber, the maneuverability would
be harder to achieve, and since SE4 movement is abstract and contains
no way to represent maneuverability other than movement points and to-
hit modifiers, larger fighters and ships are shown as having slower
maximum abstract speeds, to represent this.

With the new scale mounts and fighter engine classes, instead of having the option of putting something like 1 x Ion Engine on a Large fighter, and having it barely move, the low end would be a Light Propulsion system which even on a heavy bomber will be scaled to produce a low end but somewhat reasonable amount of speed.
<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre> -----------------
Gameplay Changes:
-----------------
* Fighter propulsion reworked. See "Version 3.0.7
fighter rebalance design notes" above for explanation.
* Fighter engine components redefined as Light, Standard, Heavy, etc.
* Engines/move for larger fighters greatly reduced.
* Fighter engine movement points increased.
* Fighter engines now use scale mounts, with different costs and sizes.
* Fighter engine design space reduced.
* Halved cost of titanium fighter armor, and upped its structure by +1.
* Incompetently messed with emissive armor cost/effect.
Does emissive effect ever do anything on fighters?
Need dogfight/interceptor balance review!
---------
Cosmetic:
---------
* Fighter Power Plants categorized as Supply.
</pre><hr />
And other fighter adjustments, including balance adjustments to firepower, to-hit chances, speed, supply, reduced cost, and removal of so many levels of total-utter-crap fighters at the low end of the tech tree.

Also planned for 3.1.0 is a major balance change to weapon mounts, at least for planetary weapon platforms. As it is, large weapon platforms with mounts and strong combat sensors can become so powerful that large specialized fleets are really required to take out planets efficiently, and it's easy to lose strong anti-ship fleets to a much cheaper investment in WP's. That was originally more or less intentional, but I'd like to tweak that so that it's still possible to have tough planets, but not so cheaply and with not so much accuracy and instant deadliness.

Then 3.0.8/3.2 was planned to have the other features I have wanted to do, including:
* Intel system rebuild to be usable (offense stronger than defense, but little or no sabotage - only/mainly information-gathering).
* Sensor technology reworking for more interesting cloak/sensor competitions.
* Various mine technology ideas.
* Efficient scale mounts for small ship control systems.
* Space-based production &amp; research facilities.
* Possibly improving the AI.
* Probably some other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.

PvK

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

* Possibly improving the AI.

That ALWAYS needs improving!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

So, I have been getting back into modding... and getting a lot done modding Dominions 3. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

I am entertaining the idea of hitting Proportions mod again, but right now I'm trying to get to a release point for a magic rebalancing mod for Dominions, which is a major task but I'm actually getting somewhat close to having a version 1.0 complete. No promises, though.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I played the demo of Dominions 3 (it's cool)

but i'm not ready for that yet still have about 20+ games on the go right now.... like:


Diablo II (with Zy-El)
Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Gold
Sid Meier's Railroads! (ya i like his games) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Heroes 3 Complete
Heroes of Might and Magic IV (the dvd ver. with two exapanions that come on the dvd)
1602 A.D (cool game)
Call To Power 2
Patrician III (like 1602 only cooler) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Imperium Galactica 2 (a bit like space empires)
dominions 3 demo
Master of Orion 3 (i bought it the day it came out $69.95 still kicking myself in the butt)
Civilization II Multiplayer Gold Edition
Test of Time (can ya tell i LOVE civ games) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Dungeon Siege I (my sister is playing (MY) Dungeon Siege II
Nexus - The Jupiter Incident - Singleplayer Demo (i missed it when it came out in the stores)
Railroad Tycoon II - Platinum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Settlers IV
Heritage of Kings - The Settlers
World of Warcraft (who doesn't) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

and oh ya i have:
Space Empires IV Deluxe
Space Empires V

I don't have Starfury (i missed it in the stores) maybe someday i'll get some money and order it

if this post is a prob with the rules of this forum i'm sorry but i just wanted to post this

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

I don't mind the topic drift, particularly as I don't currently have much to say on-topic.

I've played at least as much Dominions as Space Empires by now, which is saying something... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And I'll answer your rhetorical question about who doesn't play World of Warcraft - I don't. I've had my fill just by looking over the shoulder of a few people, looking a little at the design, a few chats with players, etc. You know how I like things to be realistic and in semi-realistic proportions? Well that's why I play Dominions and not Wow, and why I'm even making a balance mod for Dominions... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

World of Warcraft? Never heard of it...

And how do you manage to play all those games at the same time?! I usually don't play more than 2-3 at the same time. For instance it's SEV and SotS for the past two weeks.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

i've had the games going for 3 years now when i get in the mood i load up a saved game and play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

and no i don't always remember where i left off or what i was doing but after a few turns i go "oh ya i was doing this" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

Sigh... I usually have to restart a new game, I often just can't get the feeling for that particular game anymore.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3
 

so... can we get 3.07 and playtest it :angel

or whatever ver. 3.xx you up to now????

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

PvK??????

could ya pause modding Dominions for a bit and post Version 3.0.7 so (we who are waiting :) )can play it.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

am I the ONLY one that is waiting for an update (speak up if anyone else want PvK to post an update) please

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

No, you're not alone ... ;)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Three. :rolleyes:

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Four !!!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Five!

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

I've been up to a lot of other stuff and barely able to figure out this new version of the forum software to find this thread. I'll try to figure out how to get this one to email me like the last one did when someone posts something.

So... yes, I can cobble together a version... in less time than it took me to reply to Ironmanbc's inquiry ;) ... at the moment though I'm doing some quality consulting on another game, and about 12 other people also want my time this week, but yes, I promise to make a beta version for people to play with and give me feedback. In fact, that'd be a great way to get the next version out, because I want to figure out some balance stuff and I would love others to experiment and/or opine about the things I want tweaked.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

ya i know it takes a little while to get used to the new layout but i'm getting better at it as will everyone else

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

I think Pvk forgot about us :rolleyes:

I hope there is an update for Proportions :angel

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

If anyone else thinks PvK forgot about us, this christmas lets fill his stockings with coal :)

Dominions can't be ALL that fun to play :)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Dominions 3 is awesome!

I on the other hand, have not done what I said I'd do and post a version.

I did say I would at least post what I have, and I did make an effort, but the version I had wasn't something I wanted to post, and I didn't manage to devote the time it will take to make it reasonable to post.

As of _now_, I have it on my action list, and the only thing in BOLD, though it isn't my first priority and I have tons of stuff on my list, including several projects I care about which haven't been getting any attention.

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

It's good to know we on on a list :)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

so... where are we on the list :confused:

not the last page I hope :rolleyes:

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Ok, so it fell off the list again. Back on it now, and I'm taking a fresh look at it, starting with fighter rebalance. I wonder though if anyone is going to play it multi-player, or if it is worth playing single-player, without re-tweaking the AI to play 3.x well. If the answer to those is both no, then...

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Well first of all stop using the dollar store post-it-notes :D to keep track of things :doh:

2'nd I like playing single-player myself... I like the A.I. (tweaking the AI to play better) is always a good thing too :up:

(it kinda hard when the modder is modding something else when you want him to work on THIS mod) :re:

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Sound advice!

Which AI empires have you been playing Proportions 3.x against? Have you modded any of the AI files?

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

all of them (i play the humans) vs 19 other ai's

i've tryed to mod the ai but when i look at the list of stuff to edit that's where i scrach my head and leave it to the mod'ers

this is me trying to mod :doh::sick::eek::down:

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

.. me too.
Even if it's only because every time I want to start to mod SE, I end up playing ... ;)

Re: Attempting to improve the AI for Proportions 3.05
 

Thanks Ironmanbc. Is the AI colonizing ok? That's hilarious about your experience looking into modding the AI!

Thanks Arralen.