Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

In the *early* era, I can see that working well.

The discussion of EA vanheim (elite medium infantry with glamour) is getting confused with the discussion of EA helheim/MA vanheim/LA Midgard dualbless elite cavalry.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Mirror images only disappear if the real unit is hit. Blade wind isn't very likely to hit, so it won't do much good. As I said, I saw a grand total of about 5 hits from two castings against a massive formation of protection 12 units.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

But as neither protection or defense will be of any use when calculating if a unit is hit or not (I say hit, not damaged) by arrows/bolts/stones/etc, you could use cheap chaff with very high defense (ex. tower shield units, attack or armor is not necessary) to let the Vans gather some fatigue (easier to hit with missiles). All while you pepper them with a massive rain of arrows (making at least one damage) with your archers who you placed as close to the chaff (but behind your real troops) as possible to get good hits; effectivly killing all the 1hp mirror images. After that you have a bunch of fatigued, no mirror image, Vans. An easy kill for you fresh, real troops (why not cavalry?), who was put on hold.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm not sure if you do, but anyhow, here's an overly ironic description of events:

Edinnausagga the Oracle of the Ancients casts blade wind, the air fills with sharp whirling blades.

Bob the Hirdman, standing in the middle of his 25 friends in the EA vanheim army, sees some of them coming straight for him.

Fortunately, half of them manages to pass through the fake mirror image of himself he has created. The mirror image is intact.

*CLONK* some of them hits his shield. His mirror image is intact.

*THUD* some hits his armor but luckily none draw blood (somewhere around 1/3 wont harm him). His mirror image is intact.

*OUCH* one gets through to harm him, his mirror image is gone.

edit: There's no difference between hit and damaged for mirror image removal.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Then - as I wrote - all you need is high precision archers/slingers or whatever you can get cheap, put them relatively close and fire away. After that send in your troops as usual, preferably with some chaff first to build up fatigue on the Vans to get their high defense down.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ah, sorry, what I mean is, an arrow that doesn't remove a hitpoint will never remove mirror image.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

The problem with the chaff strat is that you need to spend many times the resources required for the vans in order to get even a scratch, Dedas. Run the goddamn numbers through a test game like Graeme Dice and Huzurdadi said and see for yourself. TRY IT OUT with the bloody chaff instead of just pontificating from your chair.

Huzurdadi gave us the results with C'tis troops and the numbers don't lie. What's your excuse for not running a battery of tests?

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm pretty sure that you have to actually damage the unit to remove mirror images, though I could be mistaken. Van also come with shields, so they won't be damaged/hit very often by missiles.

Mirror images are not killed when they are hit. They are only removed when the real unit is hit (probably requiring damage), whereupon all mirror images are removed.

What fatigue? Van have a melee encumbrance of four, so they'll only lose one point of defense for every third round that they fight, and they won't be fighting till they hit your troops, so their won't b e any fatigue. Even without mirror images, Van are still capable of defeating virtually any other army for the same gold cost. Look at how hard it is to remove their mirror images. It is only twice as likely to hit them once the images are gone.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

How about this:

FFA Sulphur Haze 2 Evocation
4+ area cloud doing poison and (I think) fire damage.

If only they would stop for a turn... I know paths are a bit awkward, but Phoenix pretender can do that.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

My excuse is that I'm very new to this game and trying to help the best way I can, and that is by speculating alot and coming up with fresh ideas. Of course, most of the things I think of (with my lack of experience) you can naturally dismiss (as they will not work), but maybe one or two may have something, just a tiny drop of something, that actually can... work.
Or just ignore me if you want to.

I understand now that chaff is just a waste of resources and gold on the Vans. But can't you (with magic) raise their encumberance in some way?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes, you can, but that kind of magic needs research, which requires time, which means that if you have a problem NOW, you won't be around anymore after the 6 or 7 turns required to get your research that far.

The whole point of this is that if and when you run up against hard numbers the likes of which Huzurdadi brought into the discussion and others have already raised many of the points you have been saying, you will eventually get yelled at. Because the numbers generally don't lie and they tend to need answer in kind, i.e. actual test results.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

will test within fiew days...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm going to run some tests with Helheim vs Atlantis, early age, the theory being that even though Atlantis doesn't have archers, they do have ready-to-order Bladewind coupled with heavy duty tramplers in the form of Basalt Kings equipped with Boots of the Behemoth, plus lots of cheap-o poisoner troops and they're amphibious, which should nullify partially or wholely early expansion. I'm using Helheim because Vanheim's ability to cross oceans makes this latter issue more vague, and because supposedly Helheim has better blessed troops, which seems to be the issue. I'd also like to put forth the (harder to test) theory that early age Ermor, in the long run, has more dangerous blessed calvalry because their calvalry recovers from disabilities, making it possible to have three and four star experience blessed troops with no hearts. I'd also imagine that ea Ermor would be successful against Vanheim etc. due to their propensity for cheap, tough javelin-throwers, which they should be able to make several times as many of as the Vans can make sacred troops.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Better than bladewind they have access to AoE spells like magma eruption later on. They can also get amazingly tough sacreds and basalt kings with an e9-10(possibly n4) bless.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

ok, stupid iron numbers:
early era

Van - 25 sacred vans with w9f9 bless,5 sacred van comanders(1 of them prophet),dominion 5, 3 order -3res 2drain 3 misfortune

C`Tis - 4 sauromancers, 1 Lizard King (Prophet),120 HI,3 lvl enchant reserched, dominion 5, 3 order, 3res, 3grows, 2 hot, 1 magic, 3 misfortune

C`Tis lose 20 battles from 20... sad

BUT now some MEGA-MAGIC-STRATEGIC-HINT, change 120 HI for
50Elite Warriors & 80 Slave Warriors(yep, i have so much money for them because of GOOD scales)

C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... hmmmm... what is wrong... Ou! Bingo! HI usless against so-heavy-hitting & hi-def troops, but little Slave-Lizards kick them... It`s miracle my friends! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif (all Slave-Lizards die)

next, change 80 Slave Warriors to 20 Chariots
C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... and even some troops exept Sauromancers survive! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I thought elite warriors would do better vrs van. Duel to lower resources they can be massed faster and with 2 attacks(with decent skills on elite warriors) they can hit them hard. You used the sauros near the flanks right?

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

i use Sauromanser & all other forces of C`Tis in the far left (back)
in the center to spam big cloud of skeletons.
All forces of Van - far right (forvard),for faster entering combat.

to <font color="red"> Edi </font> here your`s hard numbers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I used to do a similar set-up with ctis but, ive found putting the sauromancers out towards the flanks a little top/bottom(left/right) allows skeletons to reach combat faster(moving round rather than through your army) and helps defend vrs flankers.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

yep, tested, flanks is better, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif now with Chariots even more Lizard survives (about 10 chariots &amp; some 10-20 Slaves) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

So im guessing chariots remove alot of mirror images, skeletons protect the flanks and when the 2 forces meet the larger ctissian force of skeletons and slaves overwhelms the now weakened van force?
I have 2 other tests for you and im not sure how they will go.
1)try basic(non-sacred) EA van/helm troops with glamour(the fairly cheap guys) and see how that goes
2)Use the sacred vrs ctis set-up and try to find a way for vanheim to win with that force.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

It's also a comparison of EA Vanheim and C'Tis, which is quite a bit less one-sided than EA Helheim vs. C'Tis. Van's sacreds go berserk once hit, losing them both their mirror images and several points of defense at the same time.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yeah lets stomp and pound the newbie player by turn_12 in the blitz game... oh gosh... he never returned... wonder WHY !!
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Based on the type of games available, the type of players in the game and the time available for the newbie player... gamers must choose what works for them.
And even if they do move into a game for newbies, there's no stopping an experienced player from logging in unrecognized and dominating.

Not everyone has your personality, thus many gamers new to multiplayer gaming will only stomach getting stomped a few times before just flat out quitting. The powerful nations provide the newbie a stronger sense of security when moving into the multiplayer arena.

There's LOTS of nations for every age and more coming... there's no reason for the game not to have a few very powerful nations which provide more variety into the game. If you want something completely balanced all the way around go play rock, paper, scissors.
If the developers wanted something completely balanced they would not have Vanheim and Helium designed the way they do now. You don't like it... then go develop a mod.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I got stomped once,about to get stomped twice,learned some new strategies in the process with two nations.


Also learned starting with nearly Pure swamplands nearby usually spells doom for gold reserves , but one does have to press on to learn , whether through victory (To find processes that work) or defeat (to find what plain out doesn't work)

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Hmmm. Stupid test I realize, but interesting nontheless.

25 W9 F9 Helhirdings, 3 Hangadrotts (!).

25 E9 N9 Living Pillars. Warriors of Muspelheim (!!!). The uber-king-of-basalt-doom that cast the warriors then ordered to retreat.
3 basalt kings with boots of behemoth, no buffs.


The vanir routed, taking 8 losses.
4 pillars died.
so did all three kings.

Note: even this crazy test ends up in helheim's favour.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ok, first of all, beware the Valks, the very first test game I ran, I forgot about valkyries and let's just say it's not fun to watch 8 units worth 4000gold get killed in one battle just because you don't have a good rear guard.

Second thing, Atlantis automatically has a big advantage over Helheim because you don't have to worry about them hitting you while you take over the sea, in the meantime you can research like crazy and attack them with 10-1 odds at your leisure. As long as your smart (not like me with the Valks) and pick them apart, Helheim doesn't stand a chance against EA Atlantis in a 1 on 1 fight. This should hold true even in multiplayer, as long as the player playing Atlantis is experienced and patient.

More to come on this subject as I do more tests, but for now, if you know you're going to face Helheim, Atlantis is a great counter, and while Van can cross the sea, they can't enter the sea, so it should hold true for Van as well.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

By the way, I favor an imprisoned Wyrm with E10/N9 for Atlantis vs Helheim, with Luck 2, Growth 1, the rest of the scales at -3, and Dom 5. My Wyrm is imprisoned, which gives me lots of time to research Enchantment, for personal regeneration, etc. Growth and Luck are very important because this is going to be a battle of attrition, which is where Helheim really lacks. Their blessed sacreds are very powerful, it's true, but with W9/F9 you know you're not going to face a Dom10 pretender, Dom is going to be around 4 at most, which means not too many sacred troops coming out at a time, and roughly half of those should be valkyries, because they're so useful, and valkyries aren't as tough as Hangedrott calvalry.
E10 gives me plenty of prot for both my pretender and my Basalt Kings, and better than prot, it gives me +5 rejuvenation, which my Kings need because they're beautiful spell platforms and great fighters, and it means they can outlast the Vans in a fight, magical or physical. The nature 9 is good for regeneration and berserk, but this could easily be something else, astral for multiplayer or water or even death. I like it because of the spells which add to the attrition factor, like Gift of Health, because it makes my sacreds tougher and lets me build amulets of rejuvenation, and because I can create a very efficient supply-chain for my troops, while their troops are suffering from starvation and disease.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

F9W9 Father of winters with order 3, sloth 3, cold 1, death 3, misfortune 3, drain 1 and dominion 9. It uses the scales that can be set negative with no real ill effects.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Talking about Atlantis, you don't really need to defeat Vanheim in a straight battle, as long as you can raid sufficiently successful to ruin Vans economy you'll eventually win.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. 1 vs 1 Helheim will eat EA atlantis for breakfast, as song as there is reasonable proportion of land to ocean provinces, like on standard MP maps. If you don't believe me we can play 1 vs 1 blitz with me playing Helheim and you playing EA Atlantis. I can promise you'll get your *** on the plate though, since the game would be very lopsided. Vanheim has always been my favorite nation in Dom, and I hate to say it, but to be honest I have to say that they did become stronger in Dom3.

(Note that I am not saying they should be nerfed, just commenting on Helheim vs Atlantis scenario)

BTW I am not sure if you have played much against good helheim players HoneyBadger. It does not make much sense to spend huge amount of points on W9/F9 and to have dominion 4. The minimum dominion level f9/W9 Helheim should be playing is 6 or higher, and you can easily get it without crippling yourself too much.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

no, Slaves &amp; Skels was set a bit forward as meatshield, and Chariots was on the flancs scripted "hold &amp; attack closest", so they not only remove mirror images - but kill with trample almost all Van,and skels finish survived(2-6) Vans...

i`ll run other test`s within 12 hours or so...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'm still testing, not really ready to multiplayer yet, simply because I've only been playing a couple of months so far. A decent player with a lot of experience could probably beat me using any nation and it wouldn't prove a thing.

One of the really nasty advantages Atlantis has over Helheim though, on a small map, say 60 provinces with 15 water, is the ability to locate and take out Helheim's home province. Once you've done that and destroyed their fortress, you've wiped out the whole W9/F9 question for as long as you can hold on to that province, which a decent player should be able to do for quite some time, since there's no way that Helheim minus their home province is going to be able to cut off Atlantis's troop line.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I've changed my mind about Atlantis pretender though, imprisoned Wyrm isn't that useful. Against Helheim I definitely think I'm better off with a master lich.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

You know, this whole question really points to how limited the bless strategies are.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Limited did you mean LIMITING as in they are limiting in the choices you have when you are setting up your game. If you meant the latter than I agree, to maximize your chances in a decent game you have to figure out your bless strategy.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. Not only are you limited to 8 types of blessing, they're fairly arbitrary. You couldn't for instance begin the game with frost weapons with a water bless and improved perception with an astral bless, or bonus Hp with a nature bless. There's no real reason that something along those lines couldn't have been balanced into the game. I'm really hoping-and I've made some effort to convince others of the desireability-that we'll either see a (preferrably much) broader magic system soon or be able to mod in additional magic paths with their own types of bless.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Ok, I've had enough for today.

The results of today are: Helheim 1, Atlantis 0.

I'll try to get through another round of testing tomorrow.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Why Drain-1 ? You should take Drain-2 with no additional ill effects ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

What blessings did have Vanheim ? It all hangs up on that, Vans aren't very money-effective without bless , and the Ctis units you've used aren't sacred...

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Van - w9+f9 bless
C`Tis - god with w9 bless for test Ctis Sacred Dancers (all Dancers died in tests don`t even scratch Vans,so i didn`t post these tests), but Slaves &amp; Chariots not sacred.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Anyone entering Dom3 MP games expecting anything else at the beginning is obviously too naive for his own good. Doesn't mean that a more experienced player necessarily needs to go full throttle at them, but if it happens, it happens. If you're trying to twist my words around as if I advocated piling on newbies, you can go play with yourself.

Then that would suggest the problem being with the experienced player being something of an arsehole rather than there bring a problem with the concept of a newbie game, wouldn't it?

The harsh fact is that for most people, winning a Dominions game is a fairly rare treat unless they take part in a crapload of games. Powerful nation or not, a newbie is going to get a drubbing when he moves into a game with experienced people. The only question is how bad, and that depends on quite a few things. But that does not address the issue of an obvious balance problem in any way, shape or form.

Take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it up your arse. I've never demanded complete balance for any Dominions game and I don't appreciate you trying to put words into my mouth. There is a difference between "powerful" and "ridiculously lopsided", which is what Huzurdadi, Graeme and I have been saying here.

What I said about your attitude still applies here. Only you should do it with a cattle prod. In case you didn't happen to read the latest interview posted, the developers add new nations based on gut feeling and what feels thematically correct without worrying about balance. Occasionally that results in something that needs to be toned down and the Vanheim and Helheim issue is one of those.

As far as developing a mod or providing other content for the community goes, I've done a ****load more than you've ever dreamed of doing and I've no problem claiming that I've got a better understanding of Dominions as a whole than you do.

Now if you would care to actually address the points raised instead of whining like whipped dog, be my guest, but otherwise you can sod off.

Edi

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I'd suggest tweaking the gold used for these tests a bit. The Vanhere army costs 2050 gold to recruit. C'tis army costs 2740 gold to recruit. The units don't zoom to their deaths in 0 turns though do they? The sacred units are really quite a bit cheaper than they look like when you figure in a bit of upkeep. Assuming an average survival of 12 turns for any given unit, the Vanhere army costs you 2866 gold and the C'tis one 4816 gold. This is far more than can be explained with scales.

This is also not considering how superior the dual blessed Vanheres are in taking independents, that they are invisible, and fantastic raiders, all of which should figure in their gold cost imo.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

man, plz enough theory, run the test and check how many turns you need to produce enough Slave Warriors http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif and even IF i build them not in last turns, i WILL have extra gold from patrolling my Capital with my high positive scales, again http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

yep, raiding, C`Tis lose 1vs1 to Van because of raids, but C`Tis lose to Pangea and Caelum because of rading too,it`s race specific of C`Tis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Some nations should be much better than others so that one newbie doesn't get crushed quickly by an experienced player sneaking into a newbie game? Odd logic. An experienced arsehole could probably manage to get helheim anyway.

Villan - Since I like removing missunderstandings: Aseth did an early era test, meaing it was sacred "Vanhere" units and not "Van" units. Vanheres have stronger offense but aren't nearly as hard to kill.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Yeah, I counted it with Vanheres, just lazy typing from me. Fixed the post.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Do you really mean VANS or VANHERES ? Vanheres are much less good than Vans, and I suspect your Ctissians tactics will *all* miserably fail against real Vans (the ones with 24 def) ! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

okey my little friends, test 2:
middle era.
Van attack from their dominion,C`tis from their

Van - same god, 9f+9w bless 25 vanriders with 24 def + 4 second sacred comanders. (1875 gold for regulars)

1)
C`Tis Miasma,Dominion10,all scales positive exept missfortune, 4 marshmaster, 25 swampguards 25 Slingers, 75 Slaves (2000 gold for regulars, EVOCATION 3 reserched - so NO skelspaming http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

ups, Van losing 20 of 20....

2)

OK, someone say 75 slaves is to mutch, upkeep,no time, bla-bla-bla

switch my 75 slaves for 25!!!! Swampguards

UPS, Van losing again...

poison slingers KILL all of the UBER-MEGA-Vans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

3)OKAY switch 25 cheating-totally-unbalanced slingers to Swampguards, so its 50 swampguards , 75 Slaves total

ups again! van losing! BUT now non total massacre! some Vans survive and escape now! they are trully grate warriors!
now Sleep Clouds kill all Vans, how sad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

Such immature behavior, as hard as it may be for you keep your conversation civilized please do your best. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

The point being that if a few stronger nations exist within the game then the newbie players have more of a sense of security and confidence for starting a multiplayer game. "It's much harder learning how to ride a bike by starting up a steep hill."
Also SP gamers need very powerful nations whether they are new to the game or experts looking for a powerful enemy.

As mentioned earlier the stronger nations provide the newbie gamers more confidence when playing a multiplayer game. And there's no balance problem since there's LOTS of nations for every era. Also your desire to weaken the stronger nations is from a multiplayer only view. In singleplayer games many new gamers enjoy playing the stronger nations and as they become more experienced they enjoy playing against the stronger nations. The game is very successful in its current format and I doubt we'll being seeing a change for the few wanting the "weaken the stronger nations" view.
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

There's LOTS of nations... either don't play the few strong nations or develop a mod. The game in its current format is what has made it successful for BOTH multiplayer and singleplayer games.

Perhaps if you return to a good school you'll be more civilized on the forums. The rude behavior in your posts will eventually cause you to receive warnings from the moderators.
And the fact that a few nations are very powerful out of fifty nations is not an issue. You can easily choose to not play those nations or mod those nations since the average multiplayer game is 10 nations.

Great then go create the mods for Vanheim and Helheim. There's no reason the entire community should accept the fate of no more very powerful nations just to satisfy your multiplayer gaming needs.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

No, what actually happens here in the real world is the newbies pick Ulm, thinking that it's a powerful nation (while nothing could be further from the truth), because they are new and don't understand the game, while the better players will pick the powerful nations and play them to win.

Then they can mod those nations in. The default game should be balanced as well as is possible.

This is a particularly silly thing to say. "Balance doesn't matter because there's lots of nations to pick." Now, please tell me how you plan to ensure that people only pick the nations that are balanced with each other? Are we supposed to limit the game so that there are even fewer viable choices compared to Dom2?

Stronger nations don't provide new players with more confidence for several reasons. The first being that truly new players aren't going to do particularly well against experienced players no matter what nation they pick. The second is second is that new players don't know what the strong nations are. They will pick nations like MA Ulm or T'ien Ch'i and then wonder why they are defeated in the first 10 turns.

Yes, that's because the game is first and foremost a multiplayer game.

I suppose that you've polled the Dominions community to determine what they want? Or is this another one of your crusades against Ghost Riders or about the AI building castles where you post identical arguments enough times that you cause people to leave the forum when they get fed up with you?

And, unfortunately, despite the fact that you are one of the rudest people on the entire forum, you'll never get warned, no matter how many experienced players you drive off, because you cover your insults with a fake veneer of civility.

Of course it's an issue. The issue is that those nations are too powerful.

Whatever happened to your refusal to use mods, and refusal to suggest that other people use mods NtJedi? I also love how your great solution to the problem is to ban nations from multiplayer, instead of fixing the actual problem. That's a cery fanboy attitude.

In other words, you want to continue to be allowed to cheat against the AI by playing the overpowered nations, instead of having to feel like you're cheating by modding the game to make it easier for you.

I also suggest that you not pretend to know what the community wants, since you've clearly not done any research on the subject.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

If it's early era you probably mean 25 Vanheres, as EA has no vans.
1250 gold 400 res
What commanders specifically did you use?
costs:
960 gold 240 res slave warriors
700 gold 450 res elite warriors
Not a win for Ctis. Ctis pays 1.5 times the gold and 1.75 times the ressources. The scales don't make up that big of a difference, Ctis only gets 14% more gold.

next, change 80 Slave Warriors to 20 Chariots
C`Tis win 20 battles from 20... and even some troops exept Sauromancers survive! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

[/quote]
1000 gold, 520 res
A better trade in gold terms but worse in res. Still not good enough if they all die, and keep in mind that vanheres aren't as dangerous as MA vans or EA helhirdings anyway.

Re: Will Vanheim Ever Become Spayed?
 

I check my 1st test,I used 180 gold Comanders.
C`Tis capital have 191res with 3of5 neighbor provinces captured. Some problems gather 690res? Seems not to me...
C`Tis have not 14% advantage in money, but slightly more - because of admin &amp; tax+patrol multipliers - it`s abaut 36% on first turn if Van patrol too...

tomorrow i`ll test 1rst era Hellheim,HERE will be problems without poison slingers...