Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Yes, it stays active for a CD player when he PBEM's a DL player. We don't consider this a war winner that will give one side a huge advantage. ( others will disagree....these are wargamers after all........)

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Allright, thanks for the quick reply.

As you say I see it a little 'darker' then you but what the heck http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

If there are the possibilies for wishes, then I have the following.

Sams like Stinger work only if they are in a SAM Team/ I like to see that they also work if they are in other infantry types class

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Don, are you saying that in v3 Russia (my fav)would be stripped from any TI equipment prior to 90´s ?

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

They didnt had TI till 1990 so why they should ?

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Don: is it possible to make the map zoom in and out with the mouse wheel?

I know the patch is almost done and stuff, just asking becasue that´s a feature I would really like to see implemented because I´m so used to it from other games.

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Andy looked at that when we converted to windows and as I recal it involved ripping out and changing too many things to get it to work and anytime even small things are changed in this game we find ripple effects on other things so the idea was abandoned as more trouble than it was worth.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

As has been said. They didn't have it so it's being removed and anyway, as I have mentioned on other threads the Hinds were the main "problem" not the tanks. Remember we are talking about tanks with vision 40 or higher and you won't find any Russian tanks with vison 40 or higher in the OOB's you have now so there's really not much of a change. Just the early Hinds

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Thanks for your Reply Don, and yes I know since the begining the discussion is about tanks, under 2.51 oob ruskies are not given MBTs with TIs until 1993 if I remember correctly, they do have the PRP-2 as a FO vehicle with 40 vison during the 80´s in the game, my question was about those FO vehicles.

Are you saying that just the Hinds are going to be tweaked or the PRP-2 is going to be stripped from TIs too?

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

The PRP has "SMALL FRED" GSR, not TI.

Already answerd in this thread by Don.

Andy

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

"All HE ammo has been removed from RPG type weapons that had them added in to simulate the change mentioned above. This fixes the problem of two man AT teams carrying 10 or 12 ( or more ) RPG rounds. Typically now they carry
half what they did before."

I would note however that the RPG-7 has some dedicated HE rounds,like the OG-7V, which have seen battlefield use.
Still I would say that giving antipersonnel capability to HEAT is a godsend which saves many headaches.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Thanks Andy I see the difference now, however I´m still wondering if there´s any difference in a vision value of 40, I mean, I understand that a 40 means TI, could the same value model GSR equipment as well? or in v3 the PRP-2´s vision value is going to be reduced? is that the solution?

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

vision of 40 or more can represet radar or TI - in SP game terms effectivey the same thing. It sees through smoke. That is why the colour changes and TI/GSR is shown in mobhack for any such vision of 40 or more.

PRP has 40, for an earlier radar, and PRP-2 has 50 presumably for a better/more advanced model.

Cheers
Andy

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Thanks a lot Andy! So this means the ruskies aren´t going to be stripped of level 40 vision (prior to 90´s) after all. Sweet!

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Pardon for being a nitpick, but what about the BRMs? AFAIK even the early BRM-1K mounts a Tall Mike (PSNR-5) GSR, and that one dates back to 1976.
Right now all the pre-1990 BRMs in the Russian OOB have a vision of 30.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Interesting point, IMHO. The same basic launchers are usable for different ammo. If I understood correctly that in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams then I don't really think thats a good idea. Or will the RPG teams now feature two weapon slots featuring fewer ammo for both warheads?

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Yeah, I have similar questions, because various US Armored Cavalry HQ elements had access to M113s with first generation GSR, in this case the PPS-5/A. While I know its a design decision at heart, I don't think I'd mind a more expanded basic vision rubric as already exists in the MobHack help file.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

From what I gather the HEAT warheads for RPG's are by far more frequent on the battlefields and the HE rockets are being issued rather in specific circumstances when the RPG's etc. act rather like sorta pack artillery, for example in Afghanistan.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

WE never said they were going to be stripped out but that's how it got spun out of control. The HINDS prior to 1990 were the real issue. The ACRV-2 and PRP-2 and PRP-3 FO vehicles are unchanged. This is NOT, as some have implied, a "plot" to emasculate the Warsaw pact forces in the game. The POINT of it all was to bring the unit that were out of line, into reality and that, in 90% of the cases was various HINDs in various OOB's. Western OOB's were seached for units with Vision ratings higher than they should be for various time periods as well.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

There have always been dedicated RPG teams AND RPG's included with the squads. WHERE did you get the idea that "in 3.0 there will be dedicated AT/AP teams" that differ from the ones already in the game ??

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Well I hate the nitpick back at you but if you look you'll see that the BRM-1K isn't modeled in the game and the other "pre-1990 BRMs" are "stock" BRM's and the regular BRM's didn't have the Tall Mike radar as only one was issued, so equipped, per recce coy


IF I add a BRM-1K it will have the correct vision

Don

EDIT. I did a little digging and there seems to be some confusion ( what a surprise eh? ) One source say only the K model gets the radar and another says the K is the command vehicle and it's the The BMP M 1976(2) ( AKA BRM-1M ) is the one with the radar

So, we appear to be "missing" the BRM-1M. We have the 2m and 3m versions in the game

Don ( end of edit )

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Hello "western" guys! I have bad news for you!

I have found that PRP-4 arty recon vehicle introduced 1984 HAD THERMAL IMAGER in addition to GSR radar! It is proof that USSR HAD thermal sight technology in 1980s! I am sure its further implementations on Soviet helos, UAVs and tanks will be also discovered sooner or later!

Here you are PRP-4 description taken from Worldwide Equipment Guide (WEG):

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Thanks for your reply Don, I knew since the begining that the discusion was about MBTs, it seems that MY confusion was regarding the vision 40 value, I didn´t know that it models TI and GSR alike .Everything is clear now.

Regards
Robert

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

As for Hinds and TI: I suggest you to look closely at Mi-24K/Hind G-2 model! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Ya know buddy, I'm getting fed up with your attitude. If you have information to share then SHARE IT instead of working so very hard at being obnoxious. WHAT EXACTLY am I supposed to be "Looking closely" at this model for?

Here's what I have on it

"Mi-24K (korrektirovchik: corrector) ('Hind-G2'): As Mi-24R, but with large camera in cabin, f8/1,300mm lens on starboard side; six per helicopter regiment for reconnaissance and artillery fire correction; gun and B-8V-20 rocket pods retained. No target designator pod under nose; upward hingeing cover for IR sensor. About 150 built 1983-89. "

"Mi-24K reconnaissance artillery spotting helicopter intended for ground forces"

"Mi-24K (Hind-G2) : Army reconnaissance, artillery observation helicopter. "

THATS IT. ONE source says it has and IR sensor...NOT a TI sensor... a IR sensor. You have better info ? Great. Let's here what it is and where you found it.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

I see..... I have WEG as well. Please tell me where I can find in WEG the info that the PRP-4 ---with the equipment you listed--- was introduced in 1984. If not WEG then any other creditable source will do. I cannot find 1984 mentioned anywhere in WEG in relation to the PRP-4 and that equipment

What I DID find was ..."PRP-3/PRP-4: Artillery reconnaissance vehicle (see p. 6-3). ... Recently, thermal night sights have been introduced with thermal sights (FLIRs) ..."

"Recently" is an interesting word..........nothing about 1984 though. If you have something concrete please do share. I will be happy to ensure that the correct info gets into the game

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Yes that vehicle would appear to be an exception assuming the sources you quoted are correct, but do you have any valid sourses indicating that tanks or attack helicopters of the Soviet Union were equiped whit a thermal imager devices before the 1990's? It is one thing to have thermal imager on a special Recon/FO vehicle than to have it standard on all Main Battle Tanks or Attack helicopters. It might have been that due to the cost of the devices and the Soviet tactics/regulations the devices were not used. It is not only a question if USSR had thermal imaging technology in the 1980's, but were they actualy installed and used on tanks/helos in the 80's. All information available seems to point that they were not.

What I found on the net points to Mi-24K (Hind-G2) being a special purpose reconisance/chemical warfare helicopter not used in large quantities, did not find any information that it had a thermal imager though. Even if it did have a thermal imager and was available in the 80's it would appear to fall into the same special purpose vehicle gategory whit the PRP-4.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

PRP-4M

Note that designation of PRP-4 variant with TI 1PN71 sight is PRP-4M/MU, that implies it definitely ISN'T basic version introduced in 1984 (besides started appearing on exhibitions in late 1990s). Basic PRP-4 was just equipped with better radar than PRP-3 (Tall Mike vs. Small Fred).
Also mentions of this sight (1PN71) started to appear only with BRM-3 recon vehicle, IE 1990's thing as well.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Blah, blah, blah Tucano! Your thesis are in shambles so you start to jive! I suggest you to carefully read what I wrote before you begin your jabber.

It is obvious PRP-4 was introduced in 1984. It is also obvious it was equipped with 1PN59 thermal imager because it was the biggest difference between PRP-4 and PRP-3. Also it is obvious that later introduced PRP-4M vehicle had newer 1PN79 thermal sight. And none of your rubbish can change these basic facts.

Resume: Soviets HAD thermal technology in 1980s but they were reluctant to spread it wider across troops because they thought it wasn't necessary in the event of war with NATO in Europe. Also lack of money for TIs wasn't any kind of obstacle for Soviets. USSR always had plenty of cash on arms even at every other expense. That is why all these hidden suggestions that Soviets were shleppers or technologically backwarded savages are a piece of [censored]! But I am sure such suggestions are copasetic for US/UK teens!

PS. Though I try to create Mi-24K with TI in my OOBs, buddy! Western teens can't be allowed to rule on battlefield only because they can get AH-64D with visual set to...60! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Funny if you can rule the battlefield of WinSPmbt scale with a single helo, even if it would have vision of 99. Try to revise your tactics before revising the oobs.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Kuklinovsky ...... if you are simply going to ignore what others say and hurl abuse at them then leave this forum, you are wasting everyone's time with your nonsense.

I asked you for REAL info on the Mi-24K and all you can come back with is you'll add TI to it in your OOB's. Really??? ON WHAT EVIDENCE are you adding TI to this??. There is NO evidence that that helicopter used TI only IR

"IRIS wide-angle IR and optical sensor system."

is all that ANY source says this helo carried IR is NOT TI

The only one acting like a "teen" on these forums is you Kuklinovsky. Normally people are warned to modify their behaviour off list. In your case I'll make an exception. Disagreement on this forum is fine, but only in a respectful manner....no more name calling or you're gone.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Of course only I am an "acting teen" on this forum because real Western teens are waiting now for WinSPMBT 3.0 impatiently! They will be albe to smash Soviets like Iraqis with pleasure and everything will be fine!

Well, you can't intimidate me bannig from forum becaue I am leaving it myself!

But don't worry. I am sure hordes of combative US/UK teens will join this forum now! :mgreen:

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

How much you want to bet that Kuklinovsky has a picture of Vladimir Zhirinovsky on his wall?

Right over Stalin's.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

USSR becoming Iraq is a bit extreme.

To do that you would have to do some serious OOB modding: Replace tanks with stripped down export T-72, at the high end. Replace it's gun to simulate 1970's vintage 3BM-12 & 3BM-15 SABOT rounds (some of local, allegedly inferior quality, manufacture) and reduce crew quality by a good margin.

And that's not factoring in IFVs, artillery, ATGMs, aircraft, and the fact that the open engagements of the desert had about as much in common with your typical West German battlefield as Antarctica has with Daytona Beach.

I don't think removing TI from a few Hind models that had em by mistake will quite do it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Why would you be satisfied only with blinding Hinds??? By changing all OOBs only for a few poor Hinds you simply waste your time!

So, I can also advise some little tinkering at Soviet reactive armors. In consequence these armors could explode together with entire tanks when hit by Western ATGMs for example. It would be so wonderful show for our eager for strong sensations US and UK teens! You should make special tank explosion effects to enable teens to be transported with joy. In that way you can simultaneously "correct" all newer Soviet/Russian tanks characteristics to the Iraqi level. It is really magnificent idea, fellows!

Let it roll! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

PS1. I suggest all profies to set Hinds vision at 70 when you playing with teens armed with Apache-D overrated at 60 visual points. Justice must rule, guys! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

PS2. You should also create yourselves some "energy shields" for Soviet tanks immediately after some hypothetical "changes" in Soviet reactive armor takes place!

FAREWELL!

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

I have already stated that there has not been any wholesale downgrading of the Russian/WP etc OOB's. The main focus was to correct the TI given to Hinds. In the Hungarian OOB that was as early as 1978 which actually predated when the Russian Hinds were getting it. Currently, for those of you who are actually willing to listen, T1... real thermal imaging not radar, starts appearing in the Russian OOB in 1990 which is reasonable give the facts as they are known.( anyone can argue that a Helo with IR gear really had TI gear and not offer proof but that doesn't make it correct ) The specialty OP vehicles that use the GSR little Fred and Tall Mike start in the mid 70's. Thost vehicles are rated at 40 or above which sets the flag to indicate "TI/GSR" both do essentially the same job at this scale so one is interchangeable with the other. A "40" in vision could be TI or GSR, it doesn't matter.

( and I added the SNAR-10 which nobody else seems to have noticed was missing from the Russian OOB and quite a few other OOB's as well which is rated at a "50" vision which puts a Russian player at a distict advantage in the mid 70's to early 80's...... yeah.... we're just crapping all over the Russian player with the V3 release http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif)

Some people ( one in particular ) have expressed concerns ( both rationally and otherwise ) that this was done to create a deliberate imbalance in the game to favour the "western" side. This, is patent, utter nonsense but, with some, once an idea takes hold they simply will not listen. Those people will be removed from this forum becasue, as in Kuklinovsky case, he is spouting utter nonsense "They will be albe to smash Soviets like Iraqis with pleasure and everything will be fine" is pure fantasy and it really is sad when people let fantasy rule their thoughts.

The OOB's have not been tweaked to deliberately weaken or strengthen either "side" we have, as always, strived to be fair and impartial in our work on the OOB's. Errors do creep in but with a database this size and much of the information still classified it's to be expected. In this case we corrected an error that had existed almost from the first release of SPMBT and the number of units actually changed is miniscule in relation to the actual number of units for all nations in the game. We've added dual charge HEAT ammo to the game which is almost exclusively a "Russian" ( and their arms customers )addition and that's been totally forgotten.( or just simply ignored )

This entire TI issue was blown way out of proportion for reasons unknown. I explained a number of times that this was not a massive change to the game and it's not.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

We can all hope so.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

If much of information is still classified I can do a realistic assumption that placing TIs on selected Soviet Hinds and tanks is also keep secret up to now! So, all profies are free to set Soviet tanks visual at 50 points starting from, say 1981 or 1984, and who can tell this is impossible??? Soviets were well known for their "maskirovka"! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Additionally I demand smoke grenades and projectiles on Soviet side which can completely block Western TIs! Such aerosols have been existing not only in US arsenal from way back!

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Yes, I have found another banana oil here!

"A 40 in vision could be TI or GSR, it doesn't matter."

Of course, it DOES matter simply because GSR is far more resistant for darkness, dust, fog, smoke, aerosols and other weather and battlefield conditions than any TI!

As an esteemed WinSPMBT forum's professional man I can't agree to give me the shaft! It is very rudely! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

This same type of nonsensical crap is also present in most other military-style game forums. The Axis and Allies Minis boards are full of people openly accusing WotC of purposely making the US 'better' to cater to the US buyers. And its a load of complete BS.

So, IMO, its best to simply ignore these people who must take their hatred of all things US in the modern world and apply it even to their hobbies.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Regarding the multi-spectral obstruction capability of aerosols/smokes, only the T-80UK (Command Variant) was equiped with it in the USSR. No other tanks had them.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

First Soviet (well, Russian by that time) tank to mount TI was T-80U(M) in 1992. First soviet armored vehicle to mount TI was PRP-4 in 1984. First tank to mouint it in real series is T-90 (not the initial 1993. version).

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Which is very close to what we have in the game now but the line is blurred becasue, with this game, Vision over 40 could be either TI OR GSR and treats both equally ( like it or not that's the way the game works ) and we don't model every last version of the AOP GSR vehicles. Starting in 1975, with the introduction of the SNAR there are Russian GSR AOP vehicles with a vision rating of at least 50 which matches the introduction of the Small Fred/ Tall Mike type GSR's to the Russian inventory

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Really 1984??? 1984???

Do you have any strong proof on that??? If not, forum experts from "Tucano and Co." will give you an earful as a daft troll, buddy! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Anyway all Soviet recon vehicles are malformed in current OOB:

-ARCV-2 - IOC: 1976-1980, vision: 20
-ARCV-2 - IOC: 1981-2004, vision: 30
-PRP-2 - IOC: 1976-1995, vision: 40
-PRP-3 Val - IOC: 1986-2020, vision: 50
-PRP-4 - lack!
-PRP-4MU - IOC: 2002-2020, vision: 60

What a schlock! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

All of this was reviewed and corrected long before you started your little crusade. I JUST finished saying that starting in 1975 in the new OOB's the Russian OOB contains AOP vehicles with 50 vision

Strange, I though you had said your farewells a few emails back. Apparently you are not a man of your word.


Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Very interesting! I am very curious about what Soviet AOP model will possess this revolutionary radar from 1975???

PS. Yes, I have already intended to go away but this level of abysmal ignorance shocked me a I had to retort on it in my several last posts! But now I will wait for this "wonderful" version 3.0 upgrade to see what you mess in the game. Then I will come back here with my hot expert analysis of your hack-work! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Kulinovsky Guy... Watch your words... WinSPMBT is not a hack! Its one of the best PC games ever.

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

The Engish term "hack-work" means casual/careless/offhand work but not any computer hacking activity if you don't know this. And as for now I think this is good description of patch 3.0 in my opinion, buddy. As I wrote above I can change my opinion but only after I test WinSPMBT 3.0 myself!

Of course, WinSPMBT is the best! But 3.0 upgrade looks...save your breath! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Four+ months of work judged and trashed without even seeing the patch based solely on the information that few Hinds were having their vision downgraded slightly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

You're a real piece of work Kuklinovsky.

Don

Re: WinSPMBTver3.0 Info
 

Don, keep up the good work, don't mind the ramblings of a troll. Honestly, I don't even know why you all respond to him, hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif